[ANN][ZEN] Horizen: Unbounded By Design

[dmwardjr]

Did you count the opportunity cost if you would just run secure nodes?
That really sad to hear about mining right now, but we all know that this will change as soon as markets go up.
It's just the question of time

To hell with running a secure node.  If I can't mine, I'm NOT going to look into running a node.  I'll probably end up selling all of my hardware [And I have a LOT of hardware for a home miner - over 230 GPU's with peripherals].  I'll probably end up spending all of my time and energy on my trading signal and trading education website that's going LIVE in 30 to 45 days.  

I sure as hell will not buy ASIC's ever again.  I got out of the ASIC game in February, 2016 and invested in GPU's.  Now I'm getting out of GPU's.  Maybe, I'll get back into GPU's again in the future.  I just can't compete anymore at current price and difficulty.  It's just not worth it.

Yes, it would be nice if the price of all coins would go up now.  That would alleviate some of the pain from lost profits.  However, it would need to rise considerably very soon for me to consider keeping the remaining hardware I have.  At least that's the way my situation is.  How so?  Because I'm my own boss.  I haven't worked for anyone else since March, 2010.  I've supported my family on mining and trading since 2014.  Mining is about dead and now I have to rely on my trading skills I've developed since 2014.

For example:  

Click "Play" on this publication while looking at the candles - https://www.tradingview.com/chart/BTCUSD/P07Gk3YT-Wyckoff-Accumulation-Schematic-Chart-pasted-again-in-comments/

Click "Play" in the chart on the left on this publication while looking at the candles - https://www.tradingview.com/chart/BTCUSD/vU8Og7UH-Expecting-Reversal-to-the-Upside-on-the-Magenta-Vertical-Line/

Click "Play" on this publication posted August 12th and listen to me explain why I believe we will stay within the neon green rectangle for most of the remainder of August - https://www.tradingview.com/chart/BTCUSD/uh1uZBg9-BTCUSD-Bitstamp-Part-2-of-3-Lower-TF-s-Discussed/

[1714094610]

1714094610

[1714094610]

1714094610

[Direwolve735]

ZenCash has announced that it will reveal its new brand on August 22nd, introducing a new logo, name, and project-wide look (https://blog.zencash.com/zencash-brand-expansion/)
I think this is a big step forward for this project. Originally, ZenCash began as a fork of Zclassic. However, ZenCash has since branched out since then. I believe that such qualitative changes will attract new users.

[gghost]

Did you count the opportunity cost if you would just run secure nodes?
That really sad to hear about mining right now, but we all know that this will change as soon as markets go up.
It's just the question of time

To hell with running a secure node.  If I can't mine, I'm NOT going to look into running a node.  I'll probably end up selling all of my hardware [And I have a LOT of hardware for a home miner - over 230 GPU's with peripherals].  I'll probably end up spending all of my time and energy on my trading signal and trading education website that's going LIVE in 30 to 45 days.  

I sure as hell will not buy ASIC's ever again.  I got out of the ASIC game in February, 2016 and invested in GPU's.  Now I'm getting out of GPU's.  Maybe, I'll get back into GPU's again in the future.  I just can't compete anymore at current price and difficulty.  It's just not worth it.

Yes, it would be nice if the price of all coins would go up now.  That would alleviate some of the pain from lost profits.  However, it would need to rise considerably very soon for me to consider keeping the remaining hardware I have.  At least that's the way my situation is.  How so?  Because I'm my own boss.  I haven't worked for anyone else since March, 2010.  I've supported my family on mining and trading since 2014.  Mining is about dead and now I have to rely on my trading skills I've developed since 2014.

Agreed that ASICs suck. They centralize and suck value from coins. I don't believe in equality (regarding income inequality debates) but believe in equal opportunity and not everyone has access to ASICs. (To be overly frank, if you're not sucking Chinese dick you're not getting a good deal on an ASIC in the current market.)

In addition to ZEN the same crisis is being faced by Ethereum and Decred who have recently succumb to ASICs, pushing out GPU miners. I think a solid argument can be made that individuals being able to participate in mining adds value to projects from levels ranging from a gamer mining with a single GPU to larger home miners with 250+ GPUs.

"Cryptocurrencies are as much of a social phenomenon as they are a technical innovation. If your community isn’t building with your cryptocurrency they aren’t becoming attached to it. When people put labor, whether that’s running a node or a meetup, into a cryptocurrency they become intrinsically invested in it. That hardens their convictions, solidifies their beliefs, and can turn people who came to your platform as mercenaries into missionaries."
https://messari.io/news/dae50c46-e7c7-487e-b3a6-22977809fede

I'd like to invite everyone to perform a thought experiment and ask themselves if Bitcoin (the coin with the first mover advantage) would be any different had they chosen to fork off ASICs. The answer to what the ZEN team should do probably lies at the end of this discussion.

[puwaha]

Agreed that ASICs suck. They centralize and suck value from coins. I don't believe in equality (regarding income inequality debates) but believe in equal opportunity and not everyone has access to ASICs. (To be overly frank, if you're not sucking Chinese dick you're not getting a good deal on an ASIC in the current market.)

ASICs don't centralize or suck value... the people who use them do that.  And frankly, when a new coin comes on the market... what do all those GPU miners do?  They centralize in pools and mine quickly... then sell off their earnings.  None of those actions can be seen as altruistic on the part of GPU miners.

In addition to ZEN the same crisis is being faced by Ethereum and Decred who have recently succumb to ASICs, pushing out GPU miners. I think a solid argument can be made that individuals being able to participate in mining adds value to projects from levels ranging from a gamer mining with a single GPU to larger home miners with 250+ GPUs.

So what's the difference between a hobby miner with one ASIC and a "pro" with 250+ ASICs... and your one GPU gamer and "large" home miner with 250+ GPUs?

I think there is a contradiction between your stance that ASICs "centralize" coins when you accept that 250+ GPU "home miners" are ok.  That many GPUs is a business, not a hobby.

I'd like to invite everyone to perform a thought experiment and ask themselves if Bitcoin (the coin with the first mover advantage) would be any different had they chosen to fork off ASICs. The answer to what the ZEN team should do probably lies at the end of this discussion.

In what way did ASICs coming to bitcoin hurt the value or usability of the coin?

[dmwardjr]

So what's the difference between a hobby miner with one ASIC and a "pro" with 250+ ASICs... and your one GPU gamer and "large" home miner with 250+ GPUs?

I think there is a contradiction between your stance that ASICs "centralize" coins when you accept that 250+ GPU "home miners" are ok.  That many GPUs is a business, not a hobby.

The difference is GPU miners are not competing against the damn manufacturers.  Whereas hobby and 250+ ASIC miners are competing against the damn manufacturer.  It's just a matter of time and ZEC will be the same as Bitcoin in regards to ASIC mining.

[dmwardjr]

In what way did ASICs coming to bitcoin hurt the value or usability of the coin?

By pushing many out from mining with GPU's.  You just don't get it and you were NOT paying damn attention to his or my arguments.  Go back and read them and you will have the answer to your damn question!

What was his arguement?  MORE people have access to GPU's than ASIC's.  In fact, there are many countries that ban ASIC's.  With more GPU's there would be more people laboring together and become more invested into the project while acting as missionaries for the project.  The more a coin gets centralized by BIG ASIC mining companies, the less people there are who can even afford to invest into labor for the coin in the form of mining.  Which gives no incentive to invest time and/or equity into the project and does NOT convert newcomers into a missionary for the project and ultimately help the project grow and become adopted much faster.

But you can't seem to understand and/or don't want to acknowledge this commonsense FACT he spells out in his argument (below).

Agreed that ASICs suck. They centralize and suck value from coins. I don't believe in equality (regarding income inequality debates) but believe in equal opportunity and not everyone has access to ASICs. (To be overly frank, if you're not sucking Chinese dick you're not getting a good deal on an ASIC in the current market.)

"Cryptocurrencies are as much of a social phenomenon as they are a technical innovation. If your community isn’t building with your cryptocurrency they aren’t becoming attached to it. When people put labor, whether that’s running a node or a meetup, into a cryptocurrency they become intrinsically invested in it. That hardens their convictions, solidifies their beliefs, and can turn people who came to your platform as mercenaries into missionaries."
https://messari.io/news/dae50c46-e7c7-487e-b3a6-22977809fede

What was my argument?

Rolf Versluis (also known as BlockOps) is co-founder and Special Advisor of ZenCash.  

I agree with Rolf's opinion on not really such a thing as ASIC/FPGA Resistance.  However, there most certainly is such a thing as ASIC/FPGA EVEN KEEL.  Meaning, ASIC's and FPGA's are put on pretty much an even keel with GPU's at a ratio of 1.1 to 1.0 or 1.2 to 1.0 at best for ASIC's and FPGA's.  Especially, with PROG Proof of Work.  He mentions PROG Proof of Work in a comment below in purple.  He also mentions GPU miners coming over to ZENcash [If there was a fork] to "...use our wallets... which would be good overall for the project."
What disturbs me is the many times [While discussing ASIC's] he said, "...to be category leader."

I wonder which is more important:  

Is it more important to become category leader of an ASIC/FPGA coin mined by fewer people and therefore creating a smaller "centralized" community and slow growth in the size of that community?

 - OR -

Is it more important to increase the number of people mining to make ZENcash more secure and DE-centralized; WHILE increasing the SIZE of the community with more people having the opportunity to get involved and mine with GPU's?

Rolf Versluis made the following statements in a recent notification update for ASIC Resistance:

"The way to become a category leader for an ASIC is to first become a category leader in an Algorithm. Zcash is, right now, the category leader in Equihash with parameters N=200 and K=9. There are multiple ASIC miner vendors for that algorithm, further securing the Zcash blockchain."


"By making the change, ZenCash would have a chance, over the next year or so, to become the category leader in Equihash 144, 5. Depending on what the ASIC manufacturer’s decide, they might build an ASIC miner for Equihash 144, 5. At that point ZenCash would have the opportunity to be a category leader in an algorithm mined by ASIC’s. That would be a good position to be in from a project security standpoint."


"If Zcash announces that they intend to change to a different Algorithm than Equihash with parameters of 200, 9, that opens up an interesting possibility for ZenCash. There are already multiple ASIC mining vendors for that algorithm. If ZenCash stayed on that algorithm, then when Zcash made the change away from it, ZenCash would have the opportunity to be the category leader in that algorithm."


Rolf Versluis (also known as BlockOps) also said the following:

"It’s also worthwhile to look, longer term, to change to an algorithm that is more balanced between CPU, GPU, FPGA, and ASIC. The most balanced algorithm between GPU and ASIC in production right now appears to be Ethash. There are other algorithms in development, including Prog-POW and Merkle Tree Proof (MTP), that may be even more balanced between CPU, GPU, FPGA, and ASIC. One of the reasons for making this change is to give as many different people the opportunity to mine ZenCash as possible, expanding the community. This type of algorithm might be a good one to change to at the same time that ZenCash potentially changes from blockchain to blockDAG."

"In the mining world, there are many miners who have GPU miners that are finding it unprofitable to mine either Zcash or ZenCash, because of multiple factors, one of them being the entry of Equihash ASIC miners into the marketplace. If ZenCash were to change to a version of the Equihash algorithm with parameters 144,5 that can not be currently mined by ASIC, there would be many GPU miners that were mining Zcash that would change over to mining ZenCash. They would then use our wallets, evaluate the potential of retaining mining earnings for Secure Nodes, and find out more about ZenCash, which would be good overall for the project."



Which is more important:

Is it more important to become category leader of an ASIC/FPGA coin mined by fewer people and therefore creating a smaller "centralized" community and slow growth in the size of that community?

 - OR -

Is it more important to increase the number of people mining to make ZENcash more secure and DE-centralized; WHILE increasing the SIZE of the community with more people having the opportunity to get involved and mine with GPU's?

We've already seen ZCash fall prey to ASIC's and give in.  We'll soon find out if ZEN will do the same.  Unfortunately, I'm not liking what I'm hearing at the moment with this so called, "category leader" stuff.  

I do like knowing he sees the logic with GPU miners coming back "They would then use our wallets, evaluate the potential of retaining mining earnings for Secure Nodes, and find out more about ZenCash, which would be good overall for the project."  However, does he think GPU miners will stay and support the network by getting involved with secure nodes and super nodes when ASIC's are made for 144.5 parameter and he fails to change the algorithm to something like PROG PoW to put ALL HARDWARE on an even keel?

It seems like it's still up in the air and more 50/50 in regards to an algorithm like PROG PoW to put ALL HARDWARE on an even keel.  Yes, I do believe there will be a fork to at least 144.5.  I'm concerned about what they do afterwards.  Cause like he said, there will be ASIC's on 144.5 eventually.

I "KNOW" there is a LOT involved with transitioning over to another Proof of Work that would make ZEN more open to more miners by putting ASIC's and FPGA's on an EVEN KEEL with GPU's.  I'm sure the task may seem daunting.  However, I ASSURE YOU, it will pay great dividends down the road if ZEN would change their Proof of Work to put ALL HARDWARE (GPU, ASIC and FPGA) ON AN EVEN KEEL.  This way, everyone is happy.  There are people living in countries that have actually banned crypto mining ASIC's.  They don't ban GPU's.  Everyone would be happy if ZEN switched to an algorithm that puts ALL HARDWARE on an EVEN KEEL.

I hope ZEN can see the great opportunity laid before them.  They have a great roadmap and only need to increase the size of the community to take part in their vision.  Accepting ASIC's will NOT expand that vision to multiple users on a grand scale.  I assure you it won't.  If GPU's were put on an even keel with ASIC's, then we could truly see ZEN begin to grow astronomically while other alt coins are still struggling to exist.

That's my two cents.

David

[TheHas]

The difference is GPU miners are not competing against the damn manufacturers.  Whereas hobby and 250+ ASIC miners are competing against the damn manufacturer.  It's just a matter of time and ZEC will be the same as Bitcoin in regards to ASIC mining.

I know you hate ASIC miners, so I'm just going to leave this link here: https://asicminer.co/shop/asicminer-zeon-180000-sols

For the low low price of $20,000 USD, you can get a 180,000 sols Asic Miner that at current difficulty, will get you ten Zencash a day! A ROI of about six months!.... Well, at least until the market is flooded with Asic Miners like this, or a better one comes out next month

[dmwardjr]

The difference is GPU miners are not competing against the damn manufacturers.  Whereas hobby and 250+ ASIC miners are competing against the damn manufacturer.  It's just a matter of time and ZEC will be the same as Bitcoin in regards to ASIC mining.

I know you hate ASIC miners, so I'm just going to leave this link here: https://asicminer.co/shop/asicminer-zeon-180000-sols

For the low low price of $20,000 USD, you can get a 180,000 sols Asic Miner that at current difficulty, will get you ten Zencash a day! A ROI of about six months!.... Well, at least until the market is flooded with Asic Miners like this, or a better one comes out next month

LOL....

Yeah... sure... we can get HEEPS of people to invest in that.  Like everyone can go to their pickle jar and dig out $20k to drop on an ASIC.  

You proved my point exactly!

Now how did that manage to bring more and/or encourage more to come to the project and invest equity into the project?  Or become missionaries for the project?

TRUTH:  IT DIDN"T...

With GPU's, one can get involved by mining with a GPU they already have in a desktop; a cheap used one off ebay; from an old desktop collecting dust in the storage room.  You name it and people can find a way to get involved cheaply with mining WITHOUT ASIC's.  It would draw more people because they would actually be able to AFFORD to get involved.  THEN [Through experience] they begin to understand crypto more; the project more and spread the word even more.

GOT IT?

Bottom Line:  

ASIC's have slowed down the growth and adoption of Bitcoin.  Just as it will slow down the growth and adoption of any other Proof of Work coin that opens its arms to ASIC's.

The developers/supporters of Monero understand and know this FACT and have resolved to fight against ASIC's.  ZEN should do the same.  ZEN has a LOT of potential and I don't want to see it led astray by BIG ASIC players with money.  Cause if they are led astray and open their arms to ASIC's, then the hell with ZEN and any other coin that does the same.  I will only support coins that will support a LARGE community of COMMON folk rather than a small community of BIG players with money.

Remember, crypto should be about the SMALL folk; the unbanked; the other 6 billion in the world who have been forgotten.

THERE IS STRENGTH IN NUMBERS OF PEOPLE; NOT IN THE DAMN HASH RATE OF AN INDIVIDUAL AND/OR COMPANY OF ASIC's.

YOU WANT PEOPLE AND A LOT OF THEM?  THEN GET RID OF ASIC's AND ALLOW MORE TO GET INVOLVED AFFORDABLY WITHOUT HAVING TO GET A LOAN FOR AN ASIC OR HAVING TO BEG THEIR GOVERNMENT TO ALLOW ASIC's; WHILE COMPETING AGAINST THE MANUFACTURER THE ENTIRE TIME.

If ZEN developers and founders want us to catch the crumbs (10%) from the BIG table by making us COMMON folk divide up those crumbs (10%) from running secure nodes, while offering BIG players a seat at the BIG table with their BIG money to make the BIG bucks (70%) mining with ASIC's and push out the SMALL/FORGOTTEN ones (the other 6 billion) to compete over crumbs (10%) with secure nodes; then they can keep their damn coin.  I want know part of it!  I'll support a coin who actually gives a damn about us COMMON folk and the other 6 billion unbanked people in the world.

I have no problem with people making money.  What I have a problem with is fixing the game to make it hard for the small guy to make a decent amount of money and try to get ahead.  I have a problem with fixing the game to make the rich richer by squeezing out MEANINGFUL opportunities for the not so fortunate folk.  

I'm not asking for a damn handout either!  I don't want a hand out.  I simply want us all to have the same equal opportunity.  That cannot occur with ASIC's.  Mainly because of the manufacturers who make them and mine with them; the prices they charge everyone else for them and the governments who ban them.

GOT IT?

ZEN has a damn good opportunity here to tell the entire GPU community, "We have your back and agree with your ambition for decentralized mining and growing the community."  I only hope they don't muck it up this opportunity.  The longer they wait to do something about ASIC's/FPGA's, the more they are hurting GPU miners while assisting ASIC manufacturers.

[gghost]

Agreed that ASICs suck. They centralize and suck value from coins. I don't believe in equality (regarding income inequality debates) but believe in equal opportunity and not everyone has access to ASICs. (To be overly frank, if you're not sucking Chinese dick you're not getting a good deal on an ASIC in the current market.)

ASICs don't centralize or suck value... the people who use them do that.  And frankly, when a new coin comes on the market... what do all those GPU miners do?  They centralize in pools and mine quickly... then sell off their earnings.  None of those actions can be seen as altruistic on the part of GPU miners.

The reason I say ASICs suck value from coins is because ASIC manufacturers put up large capital in order to develop and manufacture them and pass the cost onto the buyers. This becomes increasingly so as the node size shrinks. A buyer might pay $10,000 for a money printing machine that has no other purpose so they are likely to immediately dump coins in order to recoup their investment. I'm mainly looking at Bitmain, all those billions in revenue were siphoned off of coins. This movement was originally piggybacked on the existing CPU & GPU distribution channels (as fair a distribution as we can hope for PoW hardware in this world). GPUs can be used for other applications and so retain value outside of mining, this results in less pressure to immediately dump coins to recoup investment. At the very least I'd say that ASIC sell pressure is heavier. My biggest concern though is that not everyone has access to ASICs and it is a much larger barrier to entry. The pool centralization issue is shared by ASICs and GPUs so I'll punt on that for now.

Another consideration is that GPU miners are becoming increasingly aware that they can subsidize their home heating costs and allows them to keep hardware online during unprofitable times which is good for network security. ASICs are loud and impractical for this.

In addition to ZEN the same crisis is being faced by Ethereum and Decred who have recently succumb to ASICs, pushing out GPU miners. I think a solid argument can be made that individuals being able to participate in mining adds value to projects from levels ranging from a gamer mining with a single GPU to larger home miners with 250+ GPUs.

So what's the difference between a hobby miner with one ASIC and a "pro" with 250+ ASICs... and your one GPU gamer and "large" home miner with 250+ GPUs?

I think there is a contradiction between your stance that ASICs "centralize" coins when you accept that 250+ GPU "home miners" are ok.  That many GPUs is a business, not a hobby.

I don't see 250+ GPU home miners as a threat to centralization. They are spread throughout regions, on different power grids, on different internet backbones, and most importantly they are controlled by us free thinking individuals. Many of us privacy advocates cannot be bought out or coerced to behave maliciously and attack the network. An entity like Bitmain with massive warehouses that stretch farther than the eye can see are centralized, influenced politically, and corruptible.

I'd like to invite everyone to perform a thought experiment and ask themselves if Bitcoin (the coin with the first mover advantage) would be any different had they chosen to fork off ASICs. The answer to what the ZEN team should do probably lies at the end of this discussion.

In what way did ASICs coming to bitcoin hurt the value or usability of the coin?

My point here is that I think Bitcoin would be at least as successful as it is today if not more so had they forked off ASICs due to even better network effects. Back in 2009 Satoshi didn't have more promising ASIC resistant algorithms like Ethash, ProgPOW, or memory bandwidth constrained algos. There was also no precedent for how things would play out. Bitcoin has a dysfunctional governance that innovates too slow but that is why we're here in the altcoin section looking to ZEN to carry the torch!

People smarter than I have wrote convincing arguments as to why ASICs should be embraced but I think that while they are technically sound they might be missing the social aspects of cryptocurrency.
These are the best resources I have found:
https://www.reddit.com/r/decred/comments/7dedss/asics_or/
https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/asic-faq.pdf

I really don't want to go down in history as calling the losing side on the ASIC debate but at least I'll choose the side that's consistent with my values.

[MedaR]

Don't Miss the ZenCash's New Brand Reveal on Aug 22nd! Join us LIVE during our Biweekly Livestream on YouTube!




https://t.co/3chGLkWnyl

[Simss]

I am unable to find any information on that website related to zencash. How do they configure the node?  How does their system work? How do you stake?  Do you need to send your stake to them or only provide a t-address with the stake balance?

[MedaR]

I have honor to present you new name of this project and new logo!

[VoskCoin]

I have honor to present your new name of this project and new logo!

Zenclassic coming soon! haha just kidding, quick update on the rebrand great job MedaR

[jacko0088]

Changes applied! Up and kicking! 

https://equigems.online/getting_started

[SexForCryptos]

Wow, the rebranding of ZEN is really cool. Horizen (or HoriZen) is a magnificent brand. I was afraid the rebranding could be some crap, but no: it's a game changing restyling. Congratulation!

[ocminer]

Nice logo !

[LeGaulois]

Here we go! Zencash is now Horizen https://blog.zencash.com/hello-horizen/
Good job guys. I also like the new website but I need to ask, what is the official logo now
https://horizen.global/assets/img/horizen.png or
https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1032326117720551425/NHatlQGR_400x400.jpg

I am unable to find any information on that website related to zencash. How do they configure the node?  How does their system work? How do you stake?  Do you need to send your stake to them or only provide a t-address with the stake balance?

Horizen is the new name of Zencash
here you have almost all information you need https://zencash.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/ZEN/overview

[monsanto]

Holy shit, ZenCash is now called HoriZen? 

At first I wasn't too happy about this, but I guess it's just the platform that's now called HoriZen, and the currency can still be called Zen.

[xyburcoin]

at least there's still Zen on it.

Cheers!

[lukamuric]

So ZenCash is no more on any form correct? The currency is called horizon but the ticker is zen? What about baby monk? I still want to use that sticker...