KnCMiner Openday Wednesday 5th & Monday 10th June

[kevcoins]

And to clear the VAT issue ....

DO the prices on your site INCLUDE vat @ 25% ?

No they don't include any taxes, We are not aiming our site at consumers at all. We are not advertising our prices in any consumer press etc.

We are selling professional devices to professional miners.

1. Is not for Amateur
2. VAT tax is not included
3. Only for Professional
4.
5.
6.

[Twh]

Having said that, if you want to wait to pay until after you have seen a fully working prototype of Jupiter you are more than welcome to do so.

That's all nice, but will that mean getting your miner later? My order is well in the 3xxx range, so will there be a difference in the time of delivery if I pay after you have demoed the Jupiter, as opposed to paying immediately after you open the orders?

All in all though I'd much rather travel to Sweden and pick up my unit and transfer most of the money then, in form of BTC - perhaps after paying a certain percentage to reserve the unit to reduce risks on your end; but that being said risks and the amount of time it'd require to do this en masse would probably make this option impractical and/or impossible.

[Rampion]

Having said that, if you want to wait to pay until after you have seen a fully working prototype of Jupiter you are more than welcome to do so.

That's all nice, but will that mean getting your miner later? My order is well in the 3xxx range, so will there be a difference in the time of delivery if I pay after you have demoed the Jupiter, as opposed to paying immediately after you open the orders?

All in all though I'd much rather travel to Sweden and pick up my unit and transfer most of the money then, in form of BTC - perhaps after paying a certain percentage to reserve the unit to reduce risks on your end; but that being said risks and the amount of time it'd require to do this en masse would probably make this option impractical and/or impossible.

Yes, of course you will get your miner later. There are two ways of keeping your queue spot:

- paying immediately for your Jupiter
- paying immediately for your Mars, then you can delay your Jupiter payment up to 30 days

I think that in 30 days things won't change much. Thus, I would skip the FPGA and order the ASIC directly (but first I would visit them personally).

[Xialla]

lol? maybe missing the point but what is the difference between "customer" and "professional miner"

guys, I don't know if you know it, but everybody how buy the product from you is your customer and doesn't matter, if he own ASIC farm or one graphic card.)

[bitpop]

I'm assuming you can buy without VAT as a business but in this community no one is really registered as a business.

[600watt]

And to clear the VAT issue ....

DO the prices on your site INCLUDE vat @ 25% ?

No they don't include any taxes, We are not aiming our site at consumers at all. We are not advertising our prices in any consumer press etc.

We are selling professional devices to professional miners.

Jut like that the price went up with 25%

it is really not THAT difficult to see what you need to do: get a trade license. in germany for example that costs 30,- €. when they ask you to fill out the section: type of business ? you put in "cryptocurrency network support"

this will take less than an hour. most of us live in countries where trade is free, secure and encouraged by the government.

voila, you are a professional miner now.

just like that the price went down 25%


edit: companies like orsoc are usually doing business with other businesses, not with consumers. when such companies display prices, it is always without vat. vat applies to consumers only.

[Twh]

Yes, of course you will get your miner later. There are two ways of keeping your queue spot:

- paying immediately for your Jupiter
- paying immediately for your Mars, then you can delay your Jupiter payment up to 30 days

I think that in 30 days things won't change much. Thus, I would skip the FPGA and order the ASIC directly (but first I would visit them personally).

Assuming they don't run away with the money it's all the same, though just traveling to Stockholm solely to see them while they only have an FPGA to show (pre-orders will probably open before they have a working jupiter) is pointless, especially since I live rather far away. So in essence it's a question of whether you trust them to not run away with the money.

lol? maybe missing the point but what is the difference between "customer" and "professional miner"

guys, I don't know if you know it, but everybody how buy the product from you is your customer and doesn't matter, if he own ASIC farm or one graphic card.)

I really doubt that they mean anything by saying that, it's just their excuse for showing lower prices to make the product more attractive. If you actually are a professional - have a company which pays taxes - those prices are indeed accurate. They aren't actually lying about anything, but it is misleading, they need to update their website.

[Xialla]

I'm assuming you can buy without VAT as a business but in this community no one is really registered as a business.

I don't know how it works in other EU countries, but here in Czech Republic you will pay with VAT and later you should deduct 20% during tax return process

otherwise, you need to prove, that thing, which you want free from VAT, is for business, in which your company working.

I'm pretty sure, that almost everybody from this forum will be pushed to pay the miners with included VAT (is x1.2Xof web prices)

[Twh]

I don't know how it works in other EU countries, but here in Czech Republic you will pay with VAT and later you should deduct 20% during tax return process

otherwise, you need to prove, that thing, which you want free from TAX for business, in which you company working.

I'm pretty sure, that almost everybody from this forum will be pushed to pay the miners with included VAT (is x1.2Xof web prices)

It amounts to the same though. You do get that 20% back, either in the form of having to pay less for taxes, or if you don't have enough taxes to pay, the state gives it back. You do have to pay the $8k-whatever, but the amount you pay for tax isn't gone forever, assuming you do have a company registered.

[Rampion]

I'm assuming you can buy without VAT as a business but in this community no one is really registered as a business.

It really depends. If you are inside the EU, and you have a registered intracomunitary EU tax number, supposedly you can buy without VAT because it is an intracomunitary purchase.

If you are outside the EU, you have to buy with VAT in any case, but then you can deduct/recoup that amount when filing your tax papers.

So, buying through a registered company is always recommended as you can deduce/recoup the VAT, which is not a trivial amount when considering $7,000 units.

I guess there are many users with a registered company in this community, at least the majority of those thinking about doing big purchases. If you are willing to buy let's say +4 units, financially has no sense to do it as an individual and not as a company. You can create a company ad-hoc only for this purposes and the costs for that will be still much lower than the VAT you are going to save.

[Xialla]

assuming you do have a company registered.

yep sure, but here you have to prove somehow, that article fits you business case and you NEED it for making you business. point is, that I can't imagine any explanation to TAX authorities, that I need bitcoin miner for thousands of dollars.)

[600watt]

lol? maybe missing the point but what is the difference between "customer" and "professional miner"

guys, I don't know if you know it, but everybody how buy the product from you is your customer and doesn't matter, if he own ASIC farm or one graphic card.)

vat laws were not designed by kncminer or orsoc. what are critizising here?

[Rampion]

I don't know how it works in other EU countries, but here in Czech Republic you will pay with VAT and later you should deduct 20% during tax return process

otherwise, you need to prove, that thing, which you want free from TAX for business, in which you company working.

I'm pretty sure, that almost everybody from this forum will be pushed to pay the miners with included VAT (is x1.2Xof web prices)

It amounts to the same though. You do get that 20% back, either in the form of having to pay less for taxes, or if you don't have enough taxes to pay, the state gives it back. You do have to pay the $8k-whatever, but the amount you pay for tax isn't gone forever, assuming you do have a company registered.

Yes, that's how it works. And if you have an intracommunitary VAT number (which they gave you immediately if you are a company registered in the EU, you just have to ask for it), you should be able to buy goods coming from a company based in a different EU state without VAT at all.

[Twh]

assuming you do have a company registered.

yep sure, but here you have to prove somehow, that article fits you business case and you NEED in for making you business. point is, that I can't imagine any explanation to TAX authorities, that I need bitcoin miner for thousands of dollars.)

Well, I'll definitely get some legal advice beforehand, I can only recommend doing the same. If you register a company that's specifically about BTC mining, as

it is really not THAT difficult to see what you need to do: get a trade license. in germany for example that costs 30,- €. when they ask you to fill out the section: type of business ? you put in "cryptocurrency network support"

said, it shouldn't be a problem.

[Xialla]

lol? maybe missing the point but what is the difference between "customer" and "professional miner"

guys, I don't know if you know it, but everybody how buy the product from you is your customer and doesn't matter, if he own ASIC farm or one graphic card.)

vat laws were not designed by kncminer or orsoc. what are critizising here?

nothing, I'm just surprised, that all prices on the web are without VAT and any notice about it.

I will buy the miner here, once will be available, but +25% is little disappointing.

[kevcoins]

Having said that, if you want to wait to pay until after you have seen a fully working prototype of Jupiter you are more than welcome to do so.

That's all nice, but will that mean getting your miner later? My order is well in the 3xxx range, so will there be a difference in the time of delivery if I pay after you have demoed the Jupiter, as opposed to paying immediately after you open the orders?

All in all though I'd much rather travel to Sweden and pick up my unit and transfer most of the money then, in form of BTC - perhaps after paying a certain percentage to reserve the unit to reduce risks on your end; but that being said risks and the amount of time it'd require to do this en masse would probably make this option impractical and/or impossible.

Picking up the Miner and pay them in person in  the form of BTC is cool and paying them a certain percentage to reserve a unit is another good point before the unit is ready for pickup.

[retro72]

This is what sam told me

I asked

if we are say, the 10th person to order Mars, does that reserve the 10th spot in order for Jupiter?

Sam answered:

If the 10th Mars to leave the building is yours that will mean the 10th Jupiter to leave the building will also be yours (assuming you upgrade within 30 days)

Buying a Mars = Gets you a position in Jupiter

Not buying a mars = you wait until Mars orders get their Jupiter's

Seems to me this is by far the most fair way to do it.

That smells like BS to me.

What if I don't want a Mars? I have to wait behind 1000 people who bought one. Lets face it you would only buy one to get the jump on an asic. If you wanted an FPGA there are a few places you can get one and be running next week.

So we have to take a punt on a mars and hope that eventually, fingers crossed we get a Jupiter. That's bollocks. Not only that, they seem pretty vague on the discount. It says UP TO $2000 not $2000 so how many mars units do I have to buy to get the full $2k discount?

I think we're being led around by the nose here. They never said anything to me about buying a Mars in order to get in the asic queue. When I emailed them yesterday they said this:

"We have your registrations and if the orders are paid for when we open up for payment we don’t see why you can’t be included in the first set of boxes to ship"

Now you're telling me I have to buy an FPGA, before I get in on the first batch. Really? I can get one on ebay thanks. Good luck to anyone buying one of these things.

I may have been born at night but it wasn't last night.

These aren't mutually exclusive, the first 500 units are the first shipment.

If you're not willing to put money up front, why the fuck should you go infront of people who are?

This is what sam told me

I asked

if we are say, the 10th person to order Mars, does that reserve the 10th spot in order for Jupiter?

Sam answered:

If the 10th Mars to leave the building is yours that will mean the 10th Jupiter to leave the building will also be yours (assuming you upgrade within 30 days)

Buying a Mars = Gets you a position in Jupiter

Not buying a mars = you wait until Mars orders get their Jupiter's

Seems to me this is by far the most fair way to do it.

That smells like BS to me.

What if I don't want a Mars? I have to wait behind 1000 people who bought one. Lets face it you would only buy one to get the jump on an asic. If you wanted an FPGA there are a few places you can get one and be running next week.

So we have to take a punt on a mars and hope that eventually, fingers crossed we get a Jupiter. That's bollocks. Not only that, they seem pretty vague on the discount. It says UP TO $2000 not $2000 so how many mars units do I have to buy to get the full $2k discount?

I think we're being led around by the nose here. They never said anything to me about buying a Mars in order to get in the asic queue. When I emailed them yesterday they said this:

"We have your registrations and if the orders are paid for when we open up for payment we don’t see why you can’t be included in the first set of boxes to ship"

Now you're telling me I have to buy an FPGA, before I get in on the first batch. Really? I can get one on ebay thanks. Good luck to anyone buying one of these things.

I may have been born at night but it wasn't last night.

These aren't mutually exclusive, the first 500 units are the first shipment.

If you're not willing to put money up front, why the fuck should you go infront of people who are?

Maybe you need to learn to express yourself without swearing you child. 

Sam's post has answered my question so I don't need to hear any more fanboi nonsense from you now do I? Get your facts right before you post. I never said I wasn't willing to put money up front. I said I don't want an FPGA. You might want to read before running up your mouth.

[Bitcoinorama]

The VAT thing has been discussed at length at least three times in the original KnC thread. I personally have posted Sam's previous responses, UK's Her Majaesty's Customs and Revenue's advice and then followed it up with KnC for clarity and posted the response.

It is scary how little research most of you are willing to do before either starting a shouting match or investing. It's all there for you in another thread. So what if it's a few pages long? (less than 75), it's hardly a book and the thread is bespoke to making your mind up on this purchase. I see it time and again in thread after thread. $7k+ is no laughing matter (to me anyway) and most of you are just plain lazy. Sort it out! There are things that do still need to be asked, but not the same things again and again.

There will be a time when governments will act on this currency and believe me you will want to most certainly be seen as a business if you're mining because otherwise it will become legalised theft of your money. Furthermore you can request deductions for electricity costs, other associated hardware and potentially a %age of your rent as secure housing for your devices. Why wouldn't you?! You have a prime opportunity to use this as a platform to attempt many home based businesses, or study at minimal cost simultaneously alongside the mining...

For those who have purchased from BFL, or BitSyncom, or ASICminer you'd be nuts not to request your countries VAT/sales taxes back. For those on the DIY side this makes even more sense if you are purchasing in bulk. Those bulk chips will be taxed, those PCB's will be taxed, those assembling in Europe will have to pay tax. It's your money. Claim it back!!

The first thing any wealthy entrepreneur(s) says to himself/herself/theirselves when approaching a deal, is how do I limit the taxes I have to pay, why? It eat's into his/her/their legitimate profit. Your associated governments are supposed to be encouraging you to benefit society in a productive manner (which this is), and alleviate the burden you cost society being unproductive.

[KS]

I'm assuming you can buy without VAT as a business but in this community no one is really registered as a business.

It really depends. If you are inside the EU, and you have a registered intracomunitary EU tax VAT number, supposedly you can buy without VAT because it is an intracomunitary purchase.

If you are outside the EU, you have to buy without VAT in any case, but then you can deduct/recoup that amount when filing your tax papers.

FTFY ^^

It's really not that complicated:

1/ you are a EU resident without a VAT number -> you pay the VAT

2/ you are a EU resident/business with a VAT number
    A/ you are in the same country as the seller -> you pay the VAT but get it back with the tax return
    B/ you are not in the same country -> you do not pay the VAT (Intra-EU sale)

3/ you are not in the EU -> you do not pay the VAT

4/ you are a tourist but do not reside in the EU -> you pay the VAT but can get it back, say at the airport, when you leave the country.

[Rampion]

I'm assuming you can buy without VAT as a business but in this community no one is really registered as a business.

It really depends. If you are inside the EU, and you have a registered intracomunitary EU tax VAT number, supposedly you can buy without VAT because it is an intracomunitary purchase.

If you are outside the EU, you have to buy without VAT in any case, but then you can deduct/recoup that amount when filing your tax papers.

FTFY ^^

It's really not that complicated:

1/ you are a EU resident without a VAT number -> you pay the VAT

2/ you are a EU resident/business with a VAT number
    A/ you are in the same country as the seller -> you pay the VAT but get it back with the tax return
    B/ you are not in the same country -> you do not pay the VAT (Intra-EU sale)

3/ you are not in the EU -> you do not pay the VAT

4/ you are a tourist but do not reside in the EU -> you pay the VAT but can get it back, say at the airport, when you leave the country.

Yeah, you are absolutely right.