KnCMiner Openday Wednesday 5th & Monday 10th June

[docjunior]

STOP WITH SECTION 75. YOU ARE NOT COVERED.

Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

KNCMINER binds you as a BUSINESS, NOT a consumer.

It doesn't work that way. The seller does not define who the buyer is. If you are a non-professional, a consumer, buying an item for personal use, you are covered as such. If you buy as a registered business, ie. "KS coins Inc", you are not.

[idee2013]

i don't know how it is in other countries. but in germany you can not buy someting without a company vat number and without a trade/companyproof as a private customer at company selling goods only for business use. As a private customer you do not see prices and can't order someting for example at a wholesale website. You have to proof your company first, then you get the posibility to login in a wholesale shop.
KNC could not do the business this way in germany. I dont't know if there a the same rights in sweden.

[Bitcoinorama]

I don't believe for second they are scammers but it's hard to believe they'll deliver when they said they would. But again if they do, it's a good deal, not as good as Avalon 1 but good.

Didn0t like that "proof" video though, it showed heck all. 2 people standing by some box, guess they camera zoom didn't work  

Hell, put wheels on it and it'll look like a Mars Rover named Hope.

New video BTW; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-240FvDSJs&feature=youtu.be

...and another for Phin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwinFP8_qIM

(Ironically the second video was amongst the recommended videos in the Youtube sidebar...)

Did you check with Barclay's whether you were protected as a business buyer? I think you need a business card (no pun intended).

No, and it's after 5pm now. I will do though. I've PM'd Daggeteo your fresh questions, and those Q's I saw raised since he posted the list earlier today. His question list post got lost a couple of pages back on the main thread, amongst the lazy people asking the same crap without doing their own reading.

Alongside those queries, I've also asked for clarification on this whole business stance. I see no reason that benefits anyone in potentially blocking consumer protection when it is available to us with their chosen payment methods. If I don't like the answer, I will press myself. I'm paying as long as i'm covered. I see no justifiable reason to prevent that, even if it means they don't have to cover a 3yr warranty. It shuts out the only secure payment method offered.

I understand registering as a sole trader makes sense and allows reclaiming VAT over the next month, or whenever you're issued a valid VAT number, that's solid advice, but to open a business bank account and credit card, will take time, and a business plan a bank is satisfied with.

i don't know how it is in other countries. but in germany you can not buy someting without a company vat number and without a trade/companyproof as a private customer at company selling goods only for business use. As a private customer you do not see prices and can't order someting for example at a wholesale website. You have to proof your company first, then you get the posibility to login in a wholesale shop.
KNC could not do the business this way in germany. I dont't know if there a the same rights in sweden.

Can you not buy in Sweden (with their VAT inclusive), pick-up in person, and then reclaim once back in Germany?

[Bitcoinorama]

I don't believe for second they are scammers but it's hard to believe they'll deliver when they said they would. But again if they do, it's a good deal, not as good as Avalon 1 but good.

Didn0t like that "proof" video though, it showed heck all. 2 people standing by some box, guess they camera zoom didn't work  

Hell, put wheels on it and it'll look like a Mars Rover named Hope.

New video BTW; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-240FvDSJs&feature=youtu.be

...and another for Phin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwinFP8_qIM

(Ironically the second video was amongst the recommended videos in the Youtube sidebar...)

How did you know that that YT video was available?

It's on their homepage along with two other updates from earlier today. At least one of us does research...

[Bitcoinorama]

STOP WITH SECTION 75. YOU ARE NOT COVERED.

Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

KNCMINER binds you as a BUSINESS, NOT a consumer.

It doesn't work that way. The seller does not define who the buyer is. If you are a non-professional, a consumer, buying an item for personal use, you are covered as such. If you buy as a registered business, ie. "KS coins Inc", you are not.

Cool, again I need to double check, as does everyone else for their own personal protection.

Thanks Dj!

[idee2013]

I don't believe for second they are scammers but it's hard to believe they'll deliver when they said they would. But again if they do, it's a good deal, not as good as Avalon 1 but good.

Didn0t like that "proof" video though, it showed heck all. 2 people standing by some box, guess they camera zoom didn't work  

Hell, put wheels on it and it'll look like a Mars Rover named Hope.

New video BTW; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-240FvDSJs&feature=youtu.be

...and another for Phin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwinFP8_qIM

(Ironically the second video was amongst the recommended videos in the Youtube sidebar...)

And this is why i believe at KNC. They are reacting most possible how they can in such short times!

[ChipGeek]

STOP WITH SECTION 75. YOU ARE NOT COVERED.

Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

KNCMINER binds you as a BUSINESS, NOT a consumer.

It doesn't work that way. The seller does not define who the buyer is. If you are a non-professional, a consumer, buying an item for personal use, you are covered as such. If you buy as a registered business, ie. "KS coins Inc", you are not.

But KnC's terms & conditions force you to state you are not a consumer but are rather a business.  What does that do to the law?  (I really don't know so I'm asking, not trolling.)

I was very pro-KnC in the beginning but I am becoming less so as the days go forward.  What they did yesterday was a new low.

1) It appears that the Mars would cost more to produce than they were asking for it AND/OR the FGPA lead time was longer than the expected life of the product.  This should have been apparent to ORSoC from the beginning.  Project planning FAIL.

2) At the very least, they should allow customers to put $2800 "down" towards a Jupiter for each Mars that was ordered then pay the full amount when a working Jupiter is demonstrated.  This is nearly what what was promised from the start minus Mars hardware delivered.  (I'm looking at the risk to buyers perspective.)

3) The whole "lottery" thing of forcing people to pay full amount up front BEFORE the demo day is ...umm... BAD to out it politely.

KnC's only plus is that the FPGA hardware does indeed look real.  I'm am looking forward to the reports from the open house visitors.

Before KnC gets any of my money (BTC or fiat), they need to restore some of their reputation by making it more clear how they will deliver working 28nm ASICs by September.

[Biomech]

I have no issue with Mars not being made in volume.

It's served it's purpose, as a prototype, it's an iterative part of the design process in designing and creating an ASIC.

You wanted to see more of ORSoC, one especially (Phin G) wanted pic proof that ORSoC are involved. You got that with a video of Sam and Marcus from ORSoC demonstrating a working product. That's more than any other prospective miner co. has put forward. You begged them all weekend to bin Mars, they now have. It frees up a hell of a lot of time to concentrate on developing the ASIC which is more important. Doubt they can do this, don't invest. Let someone else take the risk and buy in when you are more convinced.

I don't doubt the prototype at all, and in 24 hours we will have independent third party proof from members of this forum going.

Ideally yes, I would have preferred they whip out a screwdriver and deconstructed Mars and shown you some internal pcb porn to satisfy your insecurities, but at least let people see it working for the next 48 hours.

Admittedly their presentation could have been more polished, but I don't doubt either of these guys' experience or abilities, largely as none of it is hidden. Neither seem totally relaxed on camera, but then not everyone is comfortable in front of a lens, especially if they share some social awkwardness which a lot of engineers do. They certainly weren't behaving shifty, there's no reason to doubt the FPGA, they weren't hiding a non working device. If they didn't have everything on screen at once; themselves, the FPGA, the monitor hashing,someone would be crying it was staged and the images were cut from another device hashing.

Obviously they need the funds ASAP to order ASIC chips and create control boards and they have a very finite timescale in which to succeed. I realise the open day had been delayed by a week or two, but  I wouldn't have opened payment just yet. I would have ironed out the pre-order mess they had just created themselves and waited until the open day as had been originally planned. Not sure what to make of the 72hour lottery that coincides with the openday. That appears to be a dumb PR move that is rightly misinterpreted as a pressure sales tactic where doubts remain still present.

At this point though there are areas for concern that still warrant clarification. Certainly I expect them to put their head down, crack on with timely weekly updates during desig and manufacture, same as any university student reporting to their lecturer over a semester of 3-4 months, but for now whilst having just opened for payment, Sam needs to clarify some of the confusion he's created and answer the more valid Q's being aired, whilst ignoring the troll BS...

I LOLed hard at this. Social awkwardness....
By the way that wasn't a monitor it was a laptop. If you can't tell the difference.........

Whatever, you get what I meant... I was writing from memory of the vid!

Also Retro72, as I had a forum member PM me about Ccard payment, in response to your info shared, on point and valid of course with respect to section 75. It was from your comments the other day and looking into it more I called Paypal and Barclaycard and spoke at length with them for an hour yesterday.

W.r.t. your follow up post, I disagree in that they are entirely responsible for any misinformation their fraud team has provided me(*if they have), it's precisely why recorded them. I rang them before sale and they okay'd me to go ahead. I was passed between several people before they could hand me to someone who they assured me could clarify, this wasn't the standard customer service rep, this was someone in their fraud/buyer protection team speaking on behalf of their company influencing my decision.

Fair enough. I hope it works out for you.

Just to clarify my position. I really hope this works out. I'd love to buy one. But the way this thing is going erodes my confidence. IMHO Its a low blow to open up payments now, before the open day, giving only a week to keep your place in the queue. By the time the second open day has come and gone you will have had to drop your cash or be  way down the list.

Even the most generous person would have to say the FPGA demo vid was a disappointment and pulling production of it, although technically a good thing shows a degree of incompetence this late in the game. They should have known nobody would want it, hell we told them we didn't. But if they'd at least banged out 20 of the things we could have some confidence in their ability to mass produce on time. This leaves us not much further than we were last week.

Personally I see a lot of reasons to be cautious. I run a business, I don't ask my clients to pay fully up front for work. I always take a deposit, then payments at milestones agreed upon at the start. This protects them and me. I had to fund my business myself, with money I had earned. I did not round up a bunch of people and get them to pay for work I might deliver at some point in the future.

Yes they need seed capitol. That's what investors are for. If they can't convince a bank or VC's or friends to invest, why should I?

Anyway, I could go on  but at the end of the day some people want to believe some don't. Its your money. I hope it works out. The last thing the community needs is another BFL.

I'm honestly squarely on the fence. I just got a little irritated that y'all seem to think ALL startups, regardless of their actions, are trying to screw you. Granted, there have been many reasonable voices as well, but there is a hard core of people on this forum that seem to WANT the ASIC companies to fail. I don't think all of that lot are invested in ASICMiner or Avalon, so I don't get the hostility.

Yes, KnC has done some awkward and potentially shady things. They have also responded to most of the concerns, legitimate or not, posted here. As previously noted, these people are engineers. Not necessarily the best batch of people to assign p.r. duties. It's not their forte. They could have developed everything without any announcement, and then a lot of you would complain about that!

Personally, I'm not investing any money until someone is actually shipping. I really don't have a choice in that for reasons of my own tight vice like margins. But if I did have money to gamble, I probably would gamble on this company. They aren't the only one, and I'm a guy that likes to bet the spread where possible. Unfortunately, at the moment I don't have that option.

[Bitcoinorama]

STOP WITH SECTION 75. YOU ARE NOT COVERED.

Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

KNCMINER binds you as a BUSINESS, NOT a consumer.

It doesn't work that way. The seller does not define who the buyer is. If you are a non-professional, a consumer, buying an item for personal use, you are covered as such. If you buy as a registered business, ie. "KS coins Inc", you are not.

But KnC's terms & conditions force you to state you are not a consumer but are rather a business.  What does that do to the law?  (I really don't know so I'm asking, not trolling.)

I was very pro-KnC in the beginning but I am becoming less so as the days go forward.  What they did yesterday was a new low.

1) It appears that the Mars would cost more to produce than they were asking for it AND/OR the FGPA lead time was longer than the expected life of the product.  This should have been apparent to ORSoC from the beginning.  Project planning FAIL.

2) At the very least, they should allow customers to put $2800 "down" towards a Jupiter for each Mars that was ordered then pay the full amount when a working Jupiter is demonstrated.  This is nearly what what was promised from the start minus Mars hardware delivered.  (I'm looking at the risk to buyers perspective.)

3) The whole "lottery" thing of forcing people to pay full amount up front BEFORE the demo day is ...umm... BAD to out it politely.

KnC's only plus is that the FPGA hardware does indeed look real.  I'm am looking forward to the reports from the open house visitors.

Before KnC gets any of my money (BTC or fiat), they need to restore some of their reputation by making it more clear how they will deliver working 28nm ASICs by September.

Please put 1, 2, and 3 into questions and PM Daggeteo. He can ask these tomorrow. (he probably HATE's offering now)

[TheSwede75]

STOP WITH SECTION 75. YOU ARE NOT COVERED.

Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

KNCMINER binds you as a BUSINESS, NOT a consumer.

It doesn't work that way. The seller does not define who the buyer is. If you are a non-professional, a consumer, buying an item for personal use, you are covered as such. If you buy as a registered business, ie. "KS coins Inc", you are not.

But KnC's terms & conditions force you to state you are not a consumer but are rather a business.  What does that do to the law?  (I really don't know so I'm asking, not trolling.)

I was very pro-KnC in the beginning but I am becoming less so as the days go forward.  What they did yesterday was a new low.

1) It appears that the Mars would cost more to produce than they were asking for it AND/OR the FGPA lead time was longer than the expected life of the product.  This should have been apparent to ORSoC from the beginning.  Project planning FAIL.

2) At the very least, they should allow customers to put $2800 "down" towards a Jupiter for each Mars that was ordered then pay the full amount when a working Jupiter is demonstrated.  This is nearly what what was promised from the start minus Mars hardware delivered.  (I'm looking at the risk to buyers perspective.)

3) The whole "lottery" thing of forcing people to pay full amount up front BEFORE the demo day is ...umm... BAD to out it politely.

KnC's only plus is that the FPGA hardware does indeed look real.  I'm am looking forward to the reports from the open house visitors.

Before KnC gets any of my money (BTC or fiat), they need to restore some of their reputation by making it more clear how they will deliver working 28nm ASICs by September.

My guess is that they are actually not reinventing an ASIC but rather ordering the BFL 28nm design separately from BFL (directly from manufacturer) and are really only designing the boards, case and firmware. would make far more sense then designing their own chips.

[erschiessen]

BFL is 65nm, right?

[idee2013]

i don't know how it is in other countries. but in germany you can not buy someting without a company vat number and without a trade/companyproof as a private customer at company selling goods only for business use. As a private customer you do not see prices and can't order someting for example at a wholesale website. You have to proof your company first, then you get the posibility to login in a wholesale shop.
KNC could not do the business this way in germany. I dont't know if there a the same rights in sweden.

Can you not buy in Sweden (with their VAT inclusive), pick-up in person, and then reclaim once back in Germany?

i really don't know. I know that they have to use the right percantage of vat in the EU according to the vat percentage where ( to which country)  they are selling the goods.
This is for private buyers.

For business use with a vat number and with proof of a company they are not allowed to take vat  with advertising someting for buiness use only  

But in my last post, a meant that a private person is not able to buy something from a seller who is advertising someting for business use only. (in germany)

[Biomech]

Just out of curiosity, I wonder how much per unit VC funding would add to the price?

"All the market will bear", maybe? What is normal VC behavior in that kind of concern?

-MarkM-

Normal VC behaviour is like 'normal' weather. Completely unpredictable.

I can see why crowdfunding is more and more popular, because I have watched a number of startups fail because their investors decided to stick a wrench in the works just to watch the pretty sparks. It's hard to get a venture capitalist to let the engineers do their job. VC's know money, and power. Very few of them know the nuts and bolts of what they are backing, and fewer yet have the wisdom to keep their fingers out of the machine.

[Bitcoinorama]

i don't know how it is in other countries. but in germany you can not buy someting without a company vat number and without a trade/companyproof as a private customer at company selling goods only for business use. As a private customer you do not see prices and can't order someting for example at a wholesale website. You have to proof your company first, then you get the posibility to login in a wholesale shop.
KNC could not do the business this way in germany. I dont't know if there a the same rights in sweden.

Can you not buy in Sweden (with their VAT inclusive), pick-up in person, and then reclaim once back in Germany?

i really don't know. I know that they have to use the right percantage of vat in the EU according to the vat percentage where they are selling the goods.
This is for private buyers.

For business use with a vat number and with proof of a company they are not allowed to take vat  with advertising someting for buiness use only  

But in my last post, a meant that a private person is not able to buy something from a seller who is advertising someting for business use only. (in germany)

But surely the fact they have a system able to calculate and add VAT means they can sell to consumers.

In which case, there is a completely different reasoning to why they are making you agree to be a business and that they are proposing to sell to just businesses.

That needs to be clarified tomorrow. It's massively important to know why, as clearly most purchasing are consumers regardless as s the respective credit card buyer protection...

[KS]

i don't know how it is in other countries. but in germany you can not buy someting without a company vat number and without a trade/companyproof as a private customer at company selling goods only for business use. As a private customer you do not see prices and can't order someting for example at a wholesale website. You have to proof your company first, then you get the posibility to login in a wholesale shop.
KNC could not do the business this way in germany. I dont't know if there a the same rights in sweden.

Can you not buy in Sweden (with their VAT inclusive), pick-up in person, and then reclaim once back in Germany?

i really don't know. I know that they have to use the right percantage of vat in the EU according to the vat percentage where ( to which country)  they are selling the goods.
This is for private buyers.

For business use with a vat number and with proof of a company they are not allowed to take vat  with advertising someting for buiness use only  

But in my last post, a meant that a private person is not able to buy something from a seller who is advertising someting for business use only. (in germany)

Yes you can.

You have to present yourself at the customs in Sweden and ask for a refund, then import the hardware in Germany. You might have to prove export from Sweden, so it's best to still ship it with DHL/FEDEX/UPS, signed for at destination.

[retro72]

I don't believe for second they are scammers but it's hard to believe they'll deliver when they said they would. But again if they do, it's a good deal, not as good as Avalon 1 but good.

Didn0t like that "proof" video though, it showed heck all. 2 people standing by some box, guess they camera zoom didn't work  

Hell, put wheels on it and it'll look like a Mars Rover named Hope.

New video BTW; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-240FvDSJs&feature=youtu.be

...and another for Phin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwinFP8_qIM

(Ironically the second video was amongst the recommended videos in the Youtube sidebar...)

Now that's more like it. They should have done that from the start.  Thanks for posting the vid.

[Biomech]

i don't know how it is in other countries. but in germany you can not buy someting without a company vat number and without a trade/companyproof as a private customer at company selling goods only for business use. As a private customer you do not see prices and can't order someting for example at a wholesale website. You have to proof your company first, then you get the posibility to login in a wholesale shop.
KNC could not do the business this way in germany. I dont't know if there a the same rights in sweden.

In the US it doesn't matter, except you might have to pay sales tax and certainly would have to pay import tarriffs. I don't know about individual cc policies, however. Everybody got to do their own research.

[idee2013]

STOP WITH SECTION 75. YOU ARE NOT COVERED.

Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

KNCMINER binds you as a BUSINESS, NOT a consumer.

It doesn't work that way. The seller does not define who the buyer is. If you are a non-professional, a consumer, buying an item for personal use, you are covered as such. If you buy as a registered business, ie. "KS coins Inc", you are not.

and this is what i said. In germany the seller defines it with a proof of company and a company vat number. After that the seller knows, that the buyer is really a company with buing someting for business use and can take money from the buyer...but without take the vat "net-price"  

[ujka]

...
But in my last post, a meant that a private person is not able to buy something from a seller who is advertising someting for business use only. (in germany)

Yes you can.

You have to present yourself at the customs in Sweden and ask for a refund, then import the hardware in Germany. You might have to prove export from Sweden, so it's best to still ship it with DHL/FEDEX/UPS, signed for at destination.

No, you can not. As a consumer (private person) you can not buy goods from a B2B only company.

[Bitcoinorama]

I don't believe for second they are scammers but it's hard to believe they'll deliver when they said they would. But again if they do, it's a good deal, not as good as Avalon 1 but good.

Didn0t like that "proof" video though, it showed heck all. 2 people standing by some box, guess they camera zoom didn't work  

Hell, put wheels on it and it'll look like a Mars Rover named Hope.

New video BTW; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-240FvDSJs&feature=youtu.be

...and another for Phin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwinFP8_qIM

(Ironically the second video was amongst the recommended videos in the Youtube sidebar...)

Now that's more like it. They should have done that from the start.  Thanks for posting the vid.

No problem, they should take a few pointers from the second vid, just for future dramatic license...