[BTC-TC] Deprived Mining Speculation (DMS)

[thy]

Now that Deprived is back, I propose that we vote to shut this operation down, somehow. This security is not viable without an exchange, and everyone would gain.

DMS.MINING shareholders would benefit greatly. According to the terms for a shutdown, DMS.MINING shares would get 365 times the daily dividend, which is currently about 0.00000066 BTC -- for a total of 0.0002 BTC. Thats is much more than they could get by continuing to receive daily dividends.

The DMS.MINING payout plus the unpaid dividends are certainly much less than the last price of a DMS.MINING share, so DMS.SELLING shareholders would get a decent return.

It's good outcome for everyone.

He'd need to render all missing dividends before doing such, which would likely wipe out most reserves, no? I haven't bothered backtracking it all.

There's an estimate of outstanding dividends on page 87 of this thread. I don't know if it's accurate, but it adds up to ~380 BTC worth of dividends, where the NAV after the last dividend payment was ~414 BTC. So almost all funds are due to be distributed as dividends. Obviously, with two thirds of the BTC locked up in Ciphermine bonds, these payments can't be done fully. Not entirely sure what the process here is, but I assume that MINING holders can get paid, while SELLING holders have to wait for the Ciphermine bonds to be liquidated.

After the current outstanding dividends are paid, shutting down the operation is an option, but not one that is in the best interest of SELLING holders (unless they assume that MINING will earn more than 365 times the current daily dividend), so I doubt they'd vote in favour.

I don't see that there's any differemce between MINING or SELLING holders, either they both gets preliminary payed based only on the amount thats in deprived's possetion if you gonna see the CIPHERMIN.B1 as an uncertain holding and the rest is settled when/if it becomes avaliable or both MINING and SELLING gets payed based on the whole sum including whats invested in the bond up to the point it's not possible as it would dig into the part thats still in the bond.

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[Skinnkavaj]

Great you are back deprived.

[matt4054]

Same here, welcome back.

So I guess the schedule is now

• resurrect a listing from btct
• check addresses
• pay dividends
• buy back shares?
• profit?

[odolvlobo]

Now that Deprived is back, I propose that we vote to shut this operation down, somehow. This security is not viable without an exchange, and everyone would gain.
DMS.MINING shareholders would benefit greatly. According to the terms for a shutdown, DMS.MINING shares would get 365 times the daily dividend, which is currently about 0.00000066 BTC -- for a total of 0.0002 BTC. Thats is much more than they could get by continuing to receive daily dividends.
The DMS.MINING payout plus the unpaid dividends are certainly much less than the last price of a DMS.MINING share, so DMS.SELLING shareholders would get a decent return.
It's a good outcome for everyone.

He'd need to render all missing dividends before doing such, which would likely wipe out most reserves, no? I haven't bothered backtracking it all.

Normally, the reason for not closing the fund would be that paying 365 days of mining dividends would drain the fund (which normally holds between 400 and 410 days). However, the difficulty has risen so much that the fund now holds about 4400 days.

Miners underestimated the rise in difficulty, so catching up the dividends will definitely not cost more than the NAV/U. The closing payout is only 0.0002 BTC, so it is likely that DMS.SELLING will also get a payout, and without going through the actual numbers I believe it will return a profit.

[Deprived]

Same here, welcome back.

So I guess the schedule is now

• resurrect a listing from btct
• check addresses
• pay dividends
• buy back shares?
• profit?

Not at home (and fairly drunk) so can't lookup figures - those will have to wait until Saturday.

I don't plan to raise a vote for SELLING to close down but I DO plan to offer an immediate exit for MINING & SELLING if they choose.  That wou;d be pitched at less than 300 days of dividend for MINING (I'm not in touch with recent difficulty changes but am sure it's still rising so a 300 day buyout from SELLING would make no sense to SELLING holders.   If anyone wants to offer more than me for MINING then they can - I'll offer to buyout at what I'm personally comfortable offering and if others want to offer more they can.).  Noone will be forced to accept any buyout and my intention is to pay off all outstanding dividends (to the extent that they can be paid from cash) with myself shouldering the transaction costs for doing that (likely only about 1 BTC total at most).

Noone will be forced to take a deal they don't want to - all costs associated with my tardiness will be absorbed by me personally and anyone who wants to hang on for what they're entitled to by contract will be able to do so at no cost to themself.  Until I've had a look at recent difficulty changes I can't say what I'll offer - but I'd expect it to be nearer 150 days at current rate for MINING than to 300 days.  An opportunity WILL be offered for others to offer more so as to maximise what people can receive - but there's no way I can in good conscience even consider a vote for SELLING buyout MINING at 300 days dividend - as the basic premise of such a vote would have to be that difficulty will fall or (at a minimum) not rise : and I don't believe that to be true.

I'll explain what I'm offering (and why) then anyone who disagrees will be free to offer more (but note than for SELLING I'll be offering cash now + a pro-rata share of whatver is recovered in respect of the CIPHERMINE.B1s - I won't be offering to buy those at all).

Off to bed now before work tomorrow -will try to touch base tomorrow evening but it'll almost certainly be Saturday before I have access to my data and can provide actual numbers.

[Deprived]

Now that Deprived is back, I propose that we vote to shut this operation down, somehow. This security is not viable without an exchange, and everyone would gain.
DMS.MINING shareholders would benefit greatly. According to the terms for a shutdown, DMS.MINING shares would get 365 times the daily dividend, which is currently about 0.00000066 BTC -- for a total of 0.0002 BTC. Thats is much more than they could get by continuing to receive daily dividends.
The DMS.MINING payout plus the unpaid dividends are certainly much less than the last price of a DMS.MINING share, so DMS.SELLING shareholders would get a decent return.
It's a good outcome for everyone.

He'd need to render all missing dividends before doing such, which would likely wipe out most reserves, no? I haven't bothered backtracking it all.

Normally, the reason for not closing the fund would be that paying 365 days of mining dividends would drain the fund (which normally holds between 400 and 410 days). However, the difficulty has risen so much that the fund now holds about 4400 days.

Miners underestimated the rise in difficulty, so catching up the dividends will definitely not cost more than the NAV/U. The closing payout is only 0.0002 BTC, so it is likely that DMS.SELLING will also get a payout, and without going through the actual numbers I believe it will return a profit.

I havent done (and  can't presently do) any of the math but my every instinct says that even after paying all MINING dividends there'll be a dividend due to SELLING.  That dpesn't, howver, mean SELLING should look to pay 300 days more dividends to MINING - even without any spreadsheet in front of me I'm condfident I can offer a better deal t o SELLING than that - but if others want to offer that then I obviously won't stand in their way.  WHich is why there'll be no vote on it - as I'll personally be offering a better deal to all SELLING holders than such a vote could possibly deliver (such a vote couldn't assign a non-zero value to CIPHERMINE.B1).

I have no intention at all of trying to steamroll either MINING or SELLING into accepting a buyout - both will 100% have the right to, without penalty, receive all benefits due to them under the original contract.  But neither will I put to vote something which is, essentially, worthless - given that I'm personally willing to offer better to the voters (SELLING) immediately.

So long as it isn't impossible due to block-chain limitations ALL outstanding dividends WILL be paid promptly (subject to confirming the email/BTC addresses) so any judgment of what's fair has to be made on that basis.

[Deprived]

I would expect there's more than enough btc in the wallet to bring DMS.MINING up to date, which should be Deprived's first priority.

It's anyone's guess when CIPHERMINE.B1 will be liquid or redeemable so I'm not sure what the go is there. I've given up waiting for the exchange and I'm trying to get mine redeemed.

I am glad you are OK Deprived, but you've aged me. If you disappear again I'll be resuming my inquiries to identify you, as you should expect.

I can say even without access to the spreadsheets that there's enough cash to bring MINING up to date - based purely on where difficulty now is.  In fact I'm certain there'll also be an immediate cash dividend due on SELLING.

On CipherermINE.B1 I'll comment further when I'm sober and home on Saturday.

As far as my identity and reason for absence is concerned I'll also be commenting - and taking some steps to avoid a recurrence of the recent situation.  In principle I've no objection to revealing my identity to you (and other larger investors) : running off with your investment is not (and never has been) something I've intended.

If anyone has demonstrable losses caused by my absence (by which I mean actual costs incurred - not "I could have sold when BTC was 1200 if DMS had been relisted and CIPHERMINE.B1 had traded at face value") then I'm fine with covering them.  Lack of funds was never (and isn't) an issue for me.

[BitThink]

Welcome back, Deprived.

In case you are worrying about how to manage the dividend paying and how to enable trading between fund holders, maybe you could have a look at Counterparty. (https://www.counterparty.co/).  It's a decentralized exchange based on the BTC blockchain that requires only trust on the open source codes and the asset issuer (that is you).

Simply said, you can issue DMS SELLING and DMS MINING on counterparty (issue two assets cost 10 xcp = 0.07 BTC now). Then you can send these two assets to holders' BTC addresses based on the list you have (the cost, including miners fee and anti dust fee, depends on how many holders there, around 0.001 * N). This is one time trouble and later on you can distribute dividend by only one command (distributing dividend in BTC will be released very soon). Moreover, you can put buy back orders with the price (in BTC) you like, and fund holders can exchange their holdings at their prefer price as well. All these transactions are transparent and verifiable in the blockchain.

Disclaimer:  I am a counterparty currency (XCP) holder, therefore I may be benefited if you choose to use Counterparty. However, I'd like to highlight that the only XCP you need is the 10 XCP to issue the assets. Later on, you can distribute the dividend and exchange all in BTC. Neither you nor any DMS holder need to buy any XCP (if you want, I can send you 10 XCP for issurance). Therefore, the benefit XCP holders get is just that more assets lead to more awareness.

Anyway, this is just a suggestion if you cannot find a trustworthy centralized exchange. No intention to preach how wonderful the Counterparty is. It is just the only working DEX now, and anyone will have his/her own judgement on whether or how well it works.


BTW, Deprived, really appreciate if you could explain why you were absent for so long, if it is not too inconvenient for you. Thanks.

[Jasun7211]

Wow.  Hi deprived.  Welcome back.   At this point take your time to settle back into Earth..lol.  cheers man

[cnioctib]

If anyone has demonstrable losses caused by my absence (by which I mean actual costs incurred - not "I could have sold when BTC was 1200 if DMS had been relisted and CIPHERMINE.B1 had traded at face value") then I'm fine with covering them.  Lack of funds was never (and isn't) an issue for me.

Well, no jokes, I smashed a third gen iPad against the wall.  This was as a result of getting f$&@(; by BitFunder (lost one third of everything I have in Bitcoin land) and then "realizing" that my DMS Selling (also roughly one third), which I really thought was quite safe, was also as good as gone.  I believe I am one of the bigger SELLING holders.

Must say, the probability that you would surface again is something I placed extremely close to zero.  I don't even have access to the e-mail I used on BTC-TC anymore, but I should be able to prove that I control the wallet address.  Hope that would be in order?

Hell, I can't believe you're back ... maybe Ukyo is also gonna announce that all owed btc would be paid back promptly.

[MPOE-PR]

Not at home (and fairly drunk) so can't lookup figures

Off to bed now before work tomorrow -will try to touch base

I havent done (and  can't presently do) any of the math

So not only do you imagine it's okay to disappear for months at a time exposing a gaping lack of any sort of failsafe or planning, but the idea is that it's also okay to come back drunk, without data, and with a pile of maybes and vague assertions of somehow wiping up after yourself later?

The abhorrent lack of discipline among wannabe securities issuers in BTC is not some sort of lower bound that you can adopt and still be taken seriously. Adopting this is the wave of a certain banner, recognizable to anyone without their heads up their asses, ostensibly recognizable at one point to yourself.

So long as it isn't impossible due to block-chain limitations ALL outstanding dividends WILL be paid promptly (subject to confirming the email/BTC addresses) so any judgment of what's fair has to be made on that basis.

You are not in a position to decree what's fair any more than you're in a position to allude to other people's failures. You've got those months' worth of explaining (with data, not later, not when you magically access some piece of equipment, not drunk, not truncated for the sake of some irrelevant task on the horizon) to do --start there. You've made quite sure that's the only place to start that you've got.

[stereotype]

I smashed a third gen iPad against the wall.  

I wanted to do that, because of those resource hungry charts that Ukyo refused to turn off by default.

Anyway, you really should show your wall more respect. 

[cnioctib]

I smashed a third gen iPad against the wall.  

I wanted to do that, because of those resource hungry charts that Ukyo refused to turn off by default.

Anyway, you really should show your wall more respect. 

Yeah, the iPad's been replaced with an Air model ... the damage to the wall is still there 

[Lohoris]

Not at home (and fairly drunk) so can't lookup figures

Off to bed now before work tomorrow -will try to touch base

I havent done (and  can't presently do) any of the math

So not only do you imagine it's okay to disappear for months at a time exposing a gaping lack of any sort of failsafe or planning, but the idea is that it's also okay to come back drunk, without data, and with a pile of maybes and vague assertions of somehow wiping up after yourself later?

The abhorrent lack of discipline among wannabe securities issuers in BTC is not some sort of lower bound that you can adopt and still be taken seriously. Adopting this is the wave of a certain banner, recognizable to anyone without their heads up their asses, ostensibly recognizable at one point to yourself.

So long as it isn't impossible due to block-chain limitations ALL outstanding dividends WILL be paid promptly (subject to confirming the email/BTC addresses) so any judgment of what's fair has to be made on that basis.

You are not in a position to decree what's fair any more than you're in a position to allude to other people's failures. You've got those months' worth of explaining (with data, not later, not when you magically access some piece of equipment, not drunk, not truncated for the sake of some irrelevant task on the horizon) to do --start there. You've made quite sure that's the only place to start that you've got.

I would never have guessed I would ever do this, but I totally agree with MPOE-PR.

This attitude of "hey I've been away for months, now I'm drunk" is so insane I cannot help but thinking he's doing it on purpose. Which purpose, I've no idea, since it does not make sense. Acting like everything's ok and normal is... I'm not sure I even have the words for that.

[odolvlobo]

So not only do you imagine it's okay to disappear for months at a time exposing a gaping lack of any sort of failsafe or planning, but the idea is that it's also okay to come back drunk, without data, and with a pile of maybes and vague assertions of somehow wiping up after yourself later?

Awww, she missed him. How adorable!

[junkonator]

So not only do you imagine it's okay to disappear for months at a time exposing a gaping lack of any sort of failsafe or planning, but the idea is that it's also okay to come back drunk, without data, and with a pile of maybes and vague assertions of somehow wiping up after yourself later?

Awww, she missed him. How adorable!

[stripykitteh]

I would never have guessed I would ever do this, but I totally agree with MPOE-PR.

This attitude of "hey I've been away for months, now I'm drunk" is so insane I cannot help but thinking he's doing it on purpose. Which purpose, I've no idea, since it does not make sense. Acting like everything's ok and normal is... I'm not sure I even have the words for that.

Yeah, I am still far from reassured by what has happened over the last few days.

[BitThink]

I would never have guessed I would ever do this, but I totally agree with MPOE-PR.

This attitude of "hey I've been away for months, now I'm drunk" is so insane I cannot help but thinking he's doing it on purpose. Which purpose, I've no idea, since it does not make sense. Acting like everything's ok and normal is... I'm not sure I even have the words for that.

Yeah, I am still far from reassured by what has happened over the last few days.

+1

[Rannasha]

I'll give a more detailed update on the weekend and try to get the dividend calculation done in full by then - then decide how to proceed with the fund going forward.

The weekend has come and gone, but no update?

[matt4054]

I'll give a more detailed update on the weekend and try to get the dividend calculation done in full by then - then decide how to proceed with the fund going forward.

The weekend has come and gone, but no update?

...and no login either