[BTC-TC] Deprived Mining Speculation (DMS)

[FloatesMcgoates]

Hmm... has anyone else noticed that btct takes longer to notice that DMS.MINING shares have been transferred back to you versus DMS.SELLING? I basically have the ability to sell Selling nearly instantly after receiving shares back from the bot but I have to wait 5-7 minutes for mining to be able to be sold.

[Deprived]

Hmm... has anyone else noticed that btct takes longer to notice that DMS.MINING shares have been transferred back to you versus DMS.SELLING? I basically have the ability to sell Selling nearly instantly after receiving shares back from the bot but I have to wait 5-7 minutes for mining to be able to be sold.

It's mainly a caching issue - strangely the API calls don't seem to have same problem.  Transfer bot sends back to people - and even after it's sent I can't even see their incoming transfer in the website transaction history.  Way I've found to force a cache refresh is to transfer 1 share to yourself - then it updates immediately.

EDIT: also on sales never sell every sinlge share of something you plan to sell regularly.  So always keep 1 MINING back in your case.  Then you can place a sell order with correct quantity (even if it still only shows 1 as being held) and it WILL sell all of them properly.  Client-side only validates you have SOME of them.

[Progressive]

Hmm... has anyone else noticed that btct takes longer to notice that DMS.MINING shares have been transferred back to you versus DMS.SELLING? I basically have the ability to sell Selling nearly instantly after receiving shares back from the bot but I have to wait 5-7 minutes for mining to be able to be sold.

I've also noticed it with MINING (I wasn't selling SELLING, so I tought that it is standard behaviour).

[FloatesMcgoates]

Hmm... has anyone else noticed that btct takes longer to notice that DMS.MINING shares have been transferred back to you versus DMS.SELLING? I basically have the ability to sell Selling nearly instantly after receiving shares back from the bot but I have to wait 5-7 minutes for mining to be able to be sold.

It's mainly a caching issue - strangely the API calls don't seem to have same problem.  Transfer bot sends back to people - and even after it's sent I can't even see their incoming transfer in the website transaction history.  Way I've found to force a cache refresh is to transfer 1 share to yourself - then it updates immediately.

EDIT: also on sales never sell every sinlge share of something you plan to sell regularly.  So always keep 1 MINING back in your case.  Then you can place a sell order with correct quantity (even if it still only shows 1 as being held) and it WILL sell all of them properly.  Client-side only validates you have SOME of them.

Thanks, I had no idea about the 1 share transfer trick.

[Deprived]

Hmm... has anyone else noticed that btct takes longer to notice that DMS.MINING shares have been transferred back to you versus DMS.SELLING? I basically have the ability to sell Selling nearly instantly after receiving shares back from the bot but I have to wait 5-7 minutes for mining to be able to be sold.

It's mainly a caching issue - strangely the API calls don't seem to have same problem.  Transfer bot sends back to people - and even after it's sent I can't even see their incoming transfer in the website transaction history.  Way I've found to force a cache refresh is to transfer 1 share to yourself - then it updates immediately.

EDIT: also on sales never sell every sinlge share of something you plan to sell regularly.  So always keep 1 MINING back in your case.  Then you can place a sell order with correct quantity (even if it still only shows 1 as being held) and it WILL sell all of them properly.  Client-side only validates you have SOME of them.

Thanks, I had no idea about the 1 share transfer trick.

It was what I figured out as a way to avoid missed ones whilst doing the transfers manually.  Problem I always had was that I'd make a list of transfers to do then do them - but often there'd be other ones that had come in but didn't show up due to caching.  But I noticed it always updated fully after I sent out a transfer.  So I ended up doing transfers to myself to get to see an updated list which greatly reduced missed ones.

[Progressive]

With SELLING div paid the NAV is 1866 BTC.
Deprived, what do you think now about moving more to J-D so our investment match 10% of NAV (186.6 BTC) as was the plan?

(about the Ukyo.Loan - Ukyo didn't respond to the backing question, also it seems that it is sold out, so this option is off the table)

[Deprived]

With SELLING div paid the NAV is 1866 BTC.
Deprived, what do you think now about moving more to J-D so our investment match 10% of NAV (186.6 BTC) as was the plan?

(about the Ukyo.Loan - Ukyo didn't respond to the backing question, also it seems that it is sold out, so this option is off the table)

Yeah - we've already sold enough PURCHASE to get capital back up to ~2k BTC so going to send 40 BTC more to J-D now.  Had always been planning to do that once the dust had settled from the SELLING dividend.  Then will be looking at another 100 BTC Coinlenders CD next week to keep deposits there spread out as much as possible (over time) - or more than 100 BTC if sales of PURCHASE continue to be fast.

Todays dividends showed why I have to keep a lot of capital - we paid out about 1.4 of ALL capital today and I have to try to keep cash over 50 days dividend.  So in practice to stay safe on that means keeping about 40% of all assets cash at a minimum.

Ideally I'd like one more investment that could take 10-20% of capital then we'd be right where I'd want us to be.

[rookier]

how can i get the transfer bot?

[Rannasha]

SELLING order book has been cleared and it's back open.  I won't be touching it again today.

So that's why my bot didn't make me money today! *shakes fist*

Good change though, it felt a bit too exploitative this way. Dividends this large are extremely uncommon with other assets (BTC or otherwise), so the normal fluidity of the market adjusting its prices to the dividend doesn't work as well.

[Deprived]

how can i get the transfer bot?

You can't at present - and I'd recommen against it for now anyway.

I'm not the author of the bot - I just paid a bounty to have it developed.  Once it's done the author can distribute it however they want - I'm not buying the code just the right to use it myself.  So it may well end up being available freely.

But right now it's still very much in development - with cross-platform functionality being added (so I can do trading where I receive on BTC-TC and it sends on LTC-Global or other way round).  At times there have been serious bugs in it where if it I'd ran it live it could have transferred out a bunch of shares costing a LOT of BTC.  I doubt it'll be released to the public until it's stable - as it would only need one careless user who couldn't understand the code and/or didn't test properly to cause a real mess.

There's still a whole section of safety/double-checking that should go in before other people used it - to protect against server-side changing of the reported time-zone of trades and also to detect changes to the format of the API results (they changed last week which just crashed the bot - but if change had been done slightly differently it could potentially have caused serious problems).

[hak8or]

Seeing as how we are starting to slowly shift discussion to the bot, anyone have any opinions regarding this security? Is it worth investing in, stay away, very risky, over priced?

[odolvlobo]

Seeing as how we are starting to slowly shift discussion to the bot, anyone have any opinions regarding this security? Is it worth investing in, stay away, very risky, over priced?

Which one are you referring to? DMS.MINING, DMS.SELLING, or DMS.PURCHASE

* PURCHASE is a very conservative investment and the return is low.
* MINING is basically a "perpetual mining bond". It pays the highest dividends of all the PMBs, but it is still a PMB, so it carries all that baggage. Don't invest in this without a thorough understanding of the economics of mining.
* SELLING is very complicated. Don't invest in this without doing a lot of research.

[BitThink]

SELLING order book has been cleared and it's back open.  I won't be touching it again today.

Thanks a lot for this. You saved many buyers who trust you and you've proved you deserve their trust Before the system can auto adjust the bidding price, clearing the order book seems be the best thing can be done now.

[BitThink]

Seeing as how we are starting to slowly shift discussion to the bot, anyone have any opinions regarding this security? Is it worth investing in, stay away, very risky, over priced?

Which one are you referring to? DMS.MINING, DMS.SELLING, or DMS.PURCHASE

* PURCHASE is a very conservative investment and the return is low.
* MINING is basically a "perpetual mining bond". It pays the highest dividends of all the PMBs, but it is still a PMB, so it carries all that baggage. Don't invest in this without a thorough understanding of the economics of mining.
* SELLING is very complicated. Don't invest in this without doing a lot of research.

I will try to explain SELLING as well as I could.
Disclaimer, I own some shares of SELLING myself.

Suppose PURCHASE costs 0.02, you buy SELLING at 0.017. Then actually it means you SELL someone the MINING at 0.003 and will give she daily dividend as she owns 5MHz/s miner. The 0.017 you paid plus the 0.003 you got from the selling of MINING, i.e. 0.02, is the deposit to ensure you can pay the mining dividend for 400 days. After mining difficulty decreases, so does the deposit needs. You may be refunded part of deposit so the rest can support the new dividend for 400 days. The refund is called SELLING dividend.

Sum up, the MINING dividend is paid by the holder of SELLING, not Deprived. The SELLING dividend is mostly the refund of deposit, plus small part of investing gain.

So why we buy SELLING? Simple, we are shorting MINING. We believe the MINING holders will lose money in a certain period. That is the MINING price in the future plus all the MINING dividends received will be less than 0.003, the price she paid to you now.

So the strategy is simple, if you long mining (at the current MINING price and your prediction of future difficulty), buy MINIMG. If you short, then buy SELLING (or buy PURCHASE and sell MINING)

[FloatesMcgoates]

Is the transfer bot currently offline?

[Deprived]

Is the transfer bot currently offline?

Net connection dropped overnight - have restarted it now and the backlog has been cleared.

[Hfleer]

Maybe one solution is to lock the fund for a day after dividend paying, and people can only cancel orders in this period. Otherwise at least announce the dividend time one day in advance and warn those buyers leaving buying orders pending. Especially when there's a bot there to help converting Purchase.

I lock PURCHASE for trading and clear all orders on it just before the dividend gets paid but not SELLING.

If I had a way to selectively clear orders then I'd willingly clear any orders that were above the new value for PURCHASE (if that occurs) - but my options are either to clear whole order book or clear nothing (for the record I DON'T believe issuers should have the ability to selectively clear orders).

Problem with clearing SELLING totally is it penalises people who put up orders they wanted to leave up and aren't around to replace - I've personally put a buy up on SELLING intentionally shortly before dividend and watched it get panic-filled after.

The principle of DMS has always been that I control the price of PURCHASE and MINING/SELLING are completely under the control of anyone who wants to buy/sell them.  I don't intend to change that unless something unexpected ever happens - and SELLING dividends after difficulty changes are entirely expected, standard and predictable.

As someone mentioned earlier, today's dividend will be somewhere around .0068 - .007 (exact value depends on how J-D did today, how many PURCHASE sell in total etc).

MINING dividend  today will be paid at old rate per my personal promise a while back - I'll be refunding the difference between old and new dividends to the fund (as I've done the few times before when difficulty changed between 16:00 and 00:00) with calculation for that included in the report..

Think clearing the orders was necessary here.  Maybe they can make a choice for orders to cancel the order in the event of dividend, and set it to default in a security like this.

[Deprived]

Sold   22481
Swapped   0
Total   22481
Price   0.02079
Total   467.37999
Less Fee   466.44523
Man Fee   13.9933569

BTC Balance (BTC-TC)    1,714.19050442
10164 LTC-ATF.B1    101.64000000
Coinlenders CD 28/8    202.28749534
Coinlenders CD 12/9    100.15950443
Just-Dice Balance    201.00000000
TOTAL ASSETS    2,319.27750419
   
Outstanding MINING   105254
Outstanding SELLING   105254
Outstanding PURCHASE   11518
Effective Units   116772
   
Block reward   25
Difficulty   50810339
Hashes per MINING   5000000
   
Daily Dividend    0.00004949
50 days (Min Liquid)    0.00247443
100 days (Forced Close)    0.00494886
365 days (Buyback)    0.01806334
405 days (IPO)    0.02004288
400 days (Post SELLING div)    0.01979544
410 days (Pre SELLING div)    0.02029033
   
NAV Post MINING Div    2,313.49862130
NAV/U Post MINING Div    0.01981210
Days Dividend Post Div   400.34
SELLING Dividend    -         
NAV Post SELLING Div    2,313.49862130
NAV/U Post Selling Div    0.01981210
PURCHASE selling price    0.02080
PURCHASE buy-back price    0.01942
   
J-D House profit at report   4709

Very large sales of PURCHASE mean that NAV/U rose very slightly even after paying today's MINING dividend.

[twentyseventy]

Hey guys, I didn't read any of the previous 45 pages of the thread, can you explain how this works? 

[Hfleer]

Hey guys, I didn't read any of the previous 45 pages of the thread, can you explain how this works? 

You probably want to read the first two post, and then if you still have any questions just ask.  In general it's a combination of securities that allows you to either collect mining dividends at a reduced cost compared with some other funds with Dms.Mining, or go short that fund by betting against its valuation as being profitable with Dms.Selling.  Also some of the money is invested in other ventures.  It's a bit more complicated, so you might want to read the whole thing.