Deprived (OP)
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June 14, 2013, 10:18:44 PM Last edit: June 14, 2013, 10:39:40 PM by Deprived |
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does anyone understand the calculation for the SELLING dividend?
Days Dividend Post Div 391.47 how to do math to get 391.47 as the result?
Here's the math. NAV Post MINING Div 697.51179543 That's the total value of the fund after the dividend was paid. If we divide that by the effective units (NUMBER of PURCHASE that have been given out in total) which is Effective Units 11058 we get the value per PURCHASE (or NAV/U) : NAV/U Post MINING Div 0.06307757 That's the amount we have in assets for every PURCHASE (or pair of MINING + SELLING) that exists. If we now divide that by the amount MINING received in dividend which is : Daily Dividend 0.00016113 we get the number you asked about. Which is the number of days we could keep paying MINING the dividend it got today even if we didn't make any profit. EDIT: If you do the math you'll get a VERY slightly different number - that's due to rounding errors (specifically the dividend paid is only accurate to 8 decimal places - as that's all BTC supports - whilst the dividend used in calculations is more precise). If you want to work it out anad get an exact match then you'll need to calculate the owed dividend to more than 8 decimal places (the last digit is rounded to nearest value for actual payment).
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Deprived (OP)
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June 14, 2013, 10:28:30 PM |
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Holding DMS.Selling only now, let's see how it does in the next days with the incoming difficulty increase.
Somewhere there's one or more people holding more DMS.MINING to balance that. For every share being bet in one direction - there'll be one being bet in the opposite direction. I can't give away details about specific investors but I can say the following: - Both MINING and SELLING each have a few people holding a large chunk (1000+) then a lot of people with much smaller holdings.
- There are a lot more people holding MINING than SELLING (over double the number).
I'd guess there's quite a few MINING holders who haven't acually calculated a value for them - they've just (correctly) realised that if they hold a more expensive (per hash) PMB they can sell it, buy shares of MINING, keep the change and be better off. They aren't guaranteed to make profit - but if they end up making a loss they'll have lost less than if they hadn't changed (they'll have got back the same in dividends but kept the difference in prices). Not everyone is trying to hold just one or the other either - there's also people buying PURCHASE, splitting it and selling (or trying to sell) both for a small profit.
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carnitastaco
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June 15, 2013, 03:07:52 AM |
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The mechanism is this (and you'll see it in practice on Monday by the looks of it):
We might get there sunday if you sleep in ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif) It's gonna be interesting!
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Deprived (OP)
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June 15, 2013, 03:33:57 AM |
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The mechanism is this (and you'll see it in practice on Monday by the looks of it):
We might get there sunday if you sleep in ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif) It's gonna be interesting! I'm expecting next difficulty change to be on Sunday - but it won't change dividends until Monday. Last time I looked it was going to change very near the end of Sunday - if it changes after midnight GMT then MINING would get an extra day at the old rate and Tuesday would be first day MINING got the new rate (and SELLING got its first dividend). In theory a bunch of new hashing could be added and the change happen earlier but that seems very unlikely. For that matter, in theory a bunch of hashing could leave the network and the difficulty change not happen until later in the week - even so late that SELLING don't get a dividend at all.
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joele
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June 15, 2013, 09:09:41 AM |
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The mechanism is this (and you'll see it in practice on Monday by the looks of it):
If capital rises above 410 days of (MINING) dividends at current difficulty then a dividend is paid to SELLING so as to reduce capital down to 400 days of dividends.
Imagine mining was paying 0.1 dividend per day and there was 40 BTC per mining share of capital. That means there's 400 days of dividends for MINING put aside so they can continue to be paid.
Now imagine difficulty rose so that the daily dividend to MINING fell to 0.095. We still have the same capital but there's now a bit over 421 days of dividends at the new rate. We only need 38 BTC to provide MINING with 400 days cover - so each SELLING share would get a 2 BTC dividend.
MINING gets its dividends every day. SELLING only gets one when difficulty rises so that there's enough capital to pay them a dividend and still keep 400 days to cover MINING's payments. If difficulty falls, stays the same or only rises below a certain amount then SELLING will receive no dividend at all. If difficulty rises fast then SELLING will receive a large dividend.
And it's more complicated in the long-term - as SELLING could receive huge dividends a few times, then difficulty stabilises and it never receives another. Or SELLING could receive nothing for a while - then suddenly difficulty surges and it gets dividended a lot whilst MINING dividends drop to being tiny.
As with ALL mining investments, results depend almost entirely on future difficulty changes. Payouts for MINING will mirror those from identical MH/S in PMBs and also those of shares in fixed mining capacity (those with no reinvestment). Payouts for SELLING (assuming there are some) represent the return of capital once it becomes obvious that the capital isn't needed to continue paying out to MINING.
Simple wording with example, I fully understand just now.
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alexius89
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June 15, 2013, 11:09:20 AM |
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I guess the whole security is really interesting but the maths behind is not that easy..
But anyway something tell me that 60% the of Deprived Mining Investors doesn't understand the SELLING Fund especially the maths.
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joele
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June 15, 2013, 11:32:00 AM |
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I guess the whole security is really interesting but the maths behind is not that easy..
But anyway something tell me that 60% the of Deprived Mining Investors doesn't understand the SELLING Fund especially the maths.
For me is not the math, is the long english explanation that make me lose.
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Rannasha
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June 15, 2013, 11:33:05 AM |
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Yeah, the math is actually rather straightforward once you know what's going on.
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alexius89
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June 15, 2013, 12:36:02 PM |
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I guess the whole security is really interesting but the maths behind is not that easy..
But anyway something tell me that 60% the of Deprived Mining Investors doesn't understand the SELLING Fund especially the maths.
For me is not the math, is the long english explanation that make me lose. yea correct..the english is sometimes pretty hard to understand...if english isnt the first language its even harder..
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Deprived (OP)
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June 15, 2013, 04:02:27 PM |
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Sold 572 Price 0.066231 Total 37.884132 Less Fee 37.80836374 Man Fee 1.134250912
Management fee of 1.134 BTC transferred.
BTC Balance (BTC-TC) 634.18617511 10000 LTC-ATF.B1 100.00000000 TOTAL ASSETS 734.18617511 Outstanding MINING 11411 Outstanding SELLING 11411 Outstanding PURCHASE 219 Effective Units 11630 Block reward 25 Difficulty 15605633 Hashes per MINING 5000000 Daily Dividend 0.00016113 50 days (Min Liquid) 0.00805649 100 days (Forced Close) 0.01611298 365 days (Buyback) 0.05881238 405 days (IPO) 0.06525757 400 days (Post SELLING div) 0.06445192 410 days (Pre SELLING div) 0.06606322 NAV Post MINING Div 732.31223549 NAV/U Post MINING Div 0.06296752 Days Dividend Post Div 390.79 SELLING Dividend - NAV Post SELLING Div 732.31223549 NAV/U Post Selling Div 0.06296752 PURCHASE selling price 0.06611589 PURCHASE buy-back price 0.06170817
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Deprived (OP)
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June 15, 2013, 09:59:23 PM |
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We just received our first investment income - 29 LTC dividend payment for this week on our 10K LTC-ATF.B1 (it's a round number as when paying LTC-ATF.B1 dividends I always round up to a tidy number for the convenience of investors when they do any math).
That, converted at the exchange-rate used when calculating the dividend (.02093) is 0.60697 BTC. The LTC have been returned to LTC-ATF and the BTC transferred to this fund on BTC.CO.
This isn't a large enough payment to warrant me cancelling PURCHASE ask, doing a management fee calculation/payment, reporting new values and putting up a fresh Ask. So until tomorrow's dividend, PURCHASE will have a slightly smaller markup on current NAV/U than usual (it's actually been less all week - due to valuing LTC-ATF.B1 at face and not counting in accrued interest). The 2% markup on sales allows me to simplify reporting and accounting like this - without existing investors being penalised. That's a large part of why it exists.
Unless anyone sees the need I won't bother reporting dividends like this in future - I can always produce the transactions if required (the amount of the dividends and the exchange-rate used are always reported on LTC-Global already). I'd happily expose the read-only API for transactions on this account - were it not for the fact that it would reveal who traded in what shares when (which obviously can't be made public).
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odolvlobo
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June 16, 2013, 12:45:19 AM |
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But anyway something tell me that 60% the of Deprived Mining Investors doesn't understand the SELLING Fund especially the maths.
What leads you to believe that 60% don't understand? I think I am part of the 40% that understand what is going on. At least, I hope so. Are you sure you are not part of the 60%?
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Join an anti-signature campaign: Click ignore on the members of signature campaigns. PGP Fingerprint: 6B6BC26599EC24EF7E29A405EAF050539D0B2925 Signing address: 13GAVJo8YaAuenj6keiEykwxWUZ7jMoSLt
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helixone
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June 16, 2013, 12:54:11 AM |
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We just received our first investment income - 29 LTC dividend payment for this week on our 10K LTC-ATF.B1 (it's a round number as when paying LTC-ATF.B1 dividends I always round up to a tidy number for the convenience of investors when they do any math).
That, converted at the exchange-rate used when calculating the dividend (.02093) is 0.60697 BTC. The LTC have been returned to LTC-ATF and the BTC transferred to this fund on BTC.CO.
This isn't a large enough payment to warrant me cancelling PURCHASE ask, doing a management fee calculation/payment, reporting new values and putting up a fresh Ask. So until tomorrow's dividend, PURCHASE will have a slightly smaller markup on current NAV/U than usual (it's actually been less all week - due to valuing LTC-ATF.B1 at face and not counting in accrued interest). The 2% markup on sales allows me to simplify reporting and accounting like this - without existing investors being penalised. That's a large part of why it exists.
Unless anyone sees the need I won't bother reporting dividends like this in future - I can always produce the transactions if required (the amount of the dividends and the exchange-rate used are always reported on LTC-Global already). I'd happily expose the read-only API for transactions on this account - were it not for the fact that it would reveal who traded in what shares when (which obviously can't be made public).
I'd suggest regular updates, at least pointing to this post. -helixone
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Deprived (OP)
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June 16, 2013, 01:36:11 AM |
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We just received our first investment income - 29 LTC dividend payment for this week on our 10K LTC-ATF.B1 (it's a round number as when paying LTC-ATF.B1 dividends I always round up to a tidy number for the convenience of investors when they do any math).
That, converted at the exchange-rate used when calculating the dividend (.02093) is 0.60697 BTC. The LTC have been returned to LTC-ATF and the BTC transferred to this fund on BTC.CO.
This isn't a large enough payment to warrant me cancelling PURCHASE ask, doing a management fee calculation/payment, reporting new values and putting up a fresh Ask. So until tomorrow's dividend, PURCHASE will have a slightly smaller markup on current NAV/U than usual (it's actually been less all week - due to valuing LTC-ATF.B1 at face and not counting in accrued interest). The 2% markup on sales allows me to simplify reporting and accounting like this - without existing investors being penalised. That's a large part of why it exists.
Unless anyone sees the need I won't bother reporting dividends like this in future - I can always produce the transactions if required (the amount of the dividends and the exchange-rate used are always reported on LTC-Global already). I'd happily expose the read-only API for transactions on this account - were it not for the fact that it would reveal who traded in what shares when (which obviously can't be made public).
I'd suggest regular updates, at least pointing to this post. -helixone My fault - I wasn't clear enough. When I said "I won't bother reporting dividends like this in future" I didn't mean mean that I wouldn't report dividends - I meant that I wouldn't report them "like this" - i.e. the LTC paid, exchange-rate etc. If anyone cares enough about those details they're available on LTC-GLobal. I WILL report receipt of weekly dividends - but it'll just be brief. So this week's report would be "Dividend of just over 0.6 BTC received for LTC-ATF.B1" - and I'd put it at the top of the next day's dividend report.
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alexius89
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June 16, 2013, 06:57:40 AM |
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But anyway something tell me that 60% the of Deprived Mining Investors doesn't understand the SELLING Fund especially the maths.
What leads you to believe that 60% don't understand? I think I am part of the 40% that understand what is going on. At least, I hope so. Are you sure you are not part of the 60%? its just a so called stomachFeeling?! ;-) 2 days ago i was part of the 60% for sure...so i hope now to be part of the 40%
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eltopo
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June 16, 2013, 08:33:16 AM |
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But anyway something tell me that 60% the of Deprived Mining Investors doesn't understand the SELLING Fund especially the maths.
What leads you to believe that 60% don't understand? I think I am part of the 40% that understand what is going on. At least, I hope so. Are you sure you are not part of the 60%? its just a so called stomachFeeling?! ;-) 2 days ago i was part of the 60% for sure...so i hope now to be part of the 40% Then you wouldn't mind to tell us what the one-time dividend for SELLING will be after the difficulty has risen to e.g. 19,200,000 ![Grin](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/grin.gif)
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Rannasha
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June 16, 2013, 08:49:24 AM |
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But anyway something tell me that 60% the of Deprived Mining Investors doesn't understand the SELLING Fund especially the maths.
What leads you to believe that 60% don't understand? I think I am part of the 40% that understand what is going on. At least, I hope so. Are you sure you are not part of the 60%? its just a so called stomachFeeling?! ;-) 2 days ago i was part of the 60% for sure...so i hope now to be part of the 40% Then you wouldn't mind to tell us what the one-time dividend for SELLING will be after the difficulty has risen to e.g. 19,200,000 ![Grin](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/grin.gif) Run the numbers and find out ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif) Needless to say, I'm looking forward to see what happens at the first dividend-payment after the difficulty update and the effect it has on market prices of the 2 funds.
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Lohoris
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June 16, 2013, 09:36:00 AM |
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Then you wouldn't mind to tell us what the one-time dividend for SELLING will be after the difficulty has risen to e.g. 19,200,000 ![Grin](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/grin.gif) I might easily have done something wrong: Current MINING div 0.00016113 Difficulty change 19'402'467.47/15'605'632.68 = 1.24329899773 New MINING div 0.00016113/1.24329899773 = .000129599 Current assets 734.18617511 Current units 11630 Asset/unit 0.06312865 410 with new MINING div .000129599 * 410 = 0.05313559 400 with new MINING div .000129599 * 400 = 0.05183960 Excess asset/unit 0.06312865 - 0.05183960 = 0.01128905
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Rannasha
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June 16, 2013, 10:07:33 AM |
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Yeah, same numbers here except that I counted that there is still going to be a DMS.MINING dividend payment before the difficulty change (there might be 2 still). But this only has a small effect on the outcome.
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eltopo
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June 16, 2013, 10:26:03 AM |
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Then you wouldn't mind to tell us what the one-time dividend for SELLING will be after the difficulty has risen to e.g. 19,200,000 ![Grin](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/grin.gif) I might easily have done something wrong: Current MINING div 0.00016113 Difficulty change 19'402'467.47/15'605'632.68 = 1.24329899773 New MINING div 0.00016113/1.24329899773 = .000129599 Current assets 734.18617511 Current units 11630 Asset/unit 0.06312865 410 with new MINING div .000129599 * 410 = 0.05313559 400 with new MINING div .000129599 * 400 = 0.05183960 Excess asset/unit 0.06312865 - 0.05183960 = 0.01128905Yup, same numbers here too. Your calculation is based on difficulty 19,400,00 right? The dividend return on SELLING is more than 4x higher than the dividend return on MINING (compared to their current price per unit). IMHO, the fair value of MINING would be < 0,01 ![Shocked](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/shocked.gif)
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