BiblePay | 10% to Orphan-Charity | RANDOMX MINING | Sanctuaries (Masternodes)

[bible_pay]

The way I see PoG2 is as PoW (PoBH) + pooled PoS (the "tithing" part), with a 20%-80% reward ratio respectively.

After some meditation I think it can really help us kill three targets in one hit:
- simplify usability
- removing the need of an external pool (through the internal pooled PoS process).
- remove dependency on an external oracle process (BOINC)

So technically speaking it's a very good idea. Perhaps it was necessary to explain it in more simpler terms.

For me it keeps the best of PoW world and adds a new dimension to PoS (I haven't heard of any other alt coin with internal pooled PoS, only external).

Another point of the discussion is that, even if PoG2 it's a good idea, whether the moment is right or not. It's hard to say. Probably if we were on the good old times we would say "it's fine, don't touch it!". So this would make bad times (like the ones we are in) much more suitable for changes.

Thank you for the excellent summary; you "gets it" and its a positive post, thank you.

[bible_pay]

For a better understanding of PoG, whenever you see "tithe" read that as "Donate to the Orphan Fund".  The word "tithe" is based on a biblical principle but the word doesn't always translate well.

In the context of Proof of Givong, tithe is not the right word. I think sow and reap is correct because you sow bbp to foundation and hope to reap more. Tithe means tenth and it's not even clear what 10% you are giving. If you mined a specific reward, giving a tithe of that makes more sense.

The term donate is correct use of word because the amount is whatever you want to give.

tithe
/tīT͟H/
noun
1.
one tenth of annual produce or earnings, formerly taken as a tax for the support of the church and clergy.

As you get deeper in Christianity you will find that people Tithe part of their earnings to the church and causes, so yours is actually not the right definition (yours is more Orthodox), but a Christian is not commanded to give 10% any more. 

So I think Tithe is good for certain elements of POG2.  In addition, even if you are a Christian who gives exactly 10%, you can still Tithe as part of your budget.

[sunk818]

Proposal list is not based on Pool.biblepay.org.

Then how are duplicate proposals removed? Blockchain would show both...

You disagree about the importance of having a good UI for the QT wallet. The wallet is a form of marketing. And it is poor marketing when what is released is not working correctly or well. You've stated it is low priority for you so I'll leave it alone.

[bible_pay]

Proposal list is not based on Pool.biblepay.org.

Then how are duplicate proposals removed? Blockchain would show both...

The datagrid for version 1.0 works, its more advanced than Dash not having one

I Won't argue with your opinion.Can we agree to disagree?

Yes, blockchain will show both in the core wallet because both exist.  Pool business logic was written by me to try to make an easy to visit place for end users who dont want to deal with technical issues when voting.  Its been trustworthy every month and every proposal.


On #2, we have Bhavani who put a lot of time and effort into making that, again its not in other governance wallets and we have it.  Isnt that great?  Sure we can disagree but its still a mean spirited attack.  I would recommend either stepping up and adding your contribution to github (the code for a better proposal grid) - or - make a 'nice to have' github issue explaining it in a nice way. 

[slovakia]

who is bhavani?

[sunk818]

On #2, we have Bhavani who put a lot of time and effort into making that, again its not in other governance wallets and we have it.  Isnt that great?  Sure we can disagree but its still a mean spirited attack.  I would recommend either stepping up and adding your contribution to github (the code for a better proposal grid) - or - make a 'nice to have' github issue explaining it in a nice way. 

I've added my enhancement requests.

[sunk818]

who is bhavani?

https://www.biblepay.org/cryptoguru/#team

[secoccular]

Hello,
Purepool seems to be down. Last block was found 12 hours ago...
@Light, can you please have a look?

Same here, not sure who to contact, as the contact info on the site points back to this thread.

------

I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around the tithing concept, at least at the ELI5 level. Let me think out loud and maybe we can work it out.

In the traditional sense, tithing is a sort of 10% tax. If I make $1000 a month, my 10% tithe leaves me with $900.

In terms of Boinc, I'm pledging a certain amount of electricity/computing power, and in return I receive a small amount of GRC/Byteball/DCC/BBP/Neumanium.

In the new concept (as I understand it), I can tithe some percent (let's say 10% again) in BBP, and in return I get some amount of BBP. How much I have no idea, or how to take a guess)

This isn't my opinion, but I think the following is a valid question:

If we're really trying to promote giving, why are we getting a kickback reward for the tithing? If I get Y% reward for tithing X%, wouldn't it be more giving to donate X% + Y%? Isn't effectively our tithe reduced by the amount of our reward? You might say the same for Boinc, but there's no return of electricity--it gets used regardless (kind of like traditional tithing).

This isn't my perception, but I think it should be thought out--that to an outsider, the "giving" part of proof-of-giving, isn't a full give, there's a refund involved. Maybe that's the carrot that gets the giving started to begin with?)

It may be that we need to trick encourage people into giving? But for a coin that is charity-based and Christian-based, it might seem odd to be rewarding giving with the same currency (which brings up donating X + Y%). I would always think, "how am I benefiting directly from this giving, is this right?".

Now one could make the same argument for Boinc, but there are two key differences. Boinc is scientific research, not spiritual in nature. And two, that the payment from Boinc isn't in the same currency coming in and going out. If we are totally honest, it seems that a 10% tithe, after rewards, leaves us with more than 90% left.

[slovakia]

skunk im think who is real......im read that infos

[bible_pay]

Hello,
Purepool seems to be down. Last block was found 12 hours ago...
@Light, can you please have a look?

Same here, not sure who to contact, as the contact info on the site points back to this thread.

------

I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around the tithing concept, at least at the ELI5 level. Let me think out loud and maybe we can work it out.

In the traditional sense, tithing is a sort of 10% tax. If I make $1000 a month, my 10% tithe leaves me with $900.

In terms of Boinc, I'm pledging a certain amount of electricity/computing power, and in return I receive a small amount of GRC/Byteball/DCC/BBP/Neumanium.

In the new concept (as I understand it), I can tithe some percent (let's say 10% again) in BBP, and in return I get some amount of BBP. How much I have no idea, or how to take a guess)

This isn't my opinion, but I think the following is a valid question:

If we're really trying to promote giving, why are we getting a kickback reward for the tithing? If I get Y% reward for tithing X%, wouldn't it be more giving to donate X% + Y%? Isn't effectively our tithe reduced by the amount of our reward? You might say the same for Boinc, but there's no return of electricity--it gets used regardless (kind of like traditional tithing).

This isn't my perception, but I think it should be thought out--that to an outsider, the "giving" part of proof-of-giving, isn't a full give, there's a refund involved. Maybe that's the carrot that gets the giving started to begin with?)

It may be that we need to trick encourage people into giving? But for a coin that is charity-based and Christian-based, it might seem odd to be rewarding giving with the same currency (which brings up donating X + Y%). I would always think, "how am I benefiting directly from this giving, is this right?".

Now one could make the same argument for Boinc, but there are two key differences. Boinc is scientific research, not spiritual in nature. And two, that the payment from Boinc isn't in the same currency coming in and going out. If we are totally honest, it seems that a 10% tithe, after rewards, leaves us with more than 90% left.

First, it's not 10% - as that is just a common percent encouraged by mainstream churches - you should tithe 10% of your income to show God that you gave the first fruits and then you trust him even if you dont have enough to pay the rest of your bills with the remaining 90% that he will make ends meet.

In the scope of POG, Tithe means to give (not to give 10%).

As far as receiving a reward back, the ELI5 part is we tell people that in this mining algorithm, our users "give" (or Tithe) to earn share weight in the pool.

Once you have share weight you are in the pool for 24 hours and will be eligibile for pool rewards.



=-=-=-=-

We are basically using the act of tithing as a replacement for hashpower measurement in our integrated pool.


Why do this?  Because in this way the system can scale to millions of homes without encouraging people to buy expensive GPUs, asics, or VMSs (they can use commodity hardware laying around) etc.

=-=-=-=-=-

Whats nice about this is Proof-of-giving fits very well with a Christian based theme also.

[bible_pay]

I forgot to mention, in POG2, you can calculate ROI from tithing now.
(Since we require an aged coin to tithe one cannot "game" the system to get in the pool).

Once in the pool, to calculate your ROI, take the daily mining emissions and subtract the tithe cap, divide this by blocks per day and this yields roi per block - divide that by your tithe and you can see the roi - please ask about this in testnet and I will add an actual ROI figure to the client.

Its up to us to set the ROI at a certain level before we use it in prod (this level depends on module use - if its POBH + POG2 then its one figure, if its pure POG2 its a different figure).


In testnet its set at 50% now - so the difficulty algorithm will always ensure an accepted tithe pays a 50% minimum profit.

However note that 50% is the Minimum - on a slow day where no one is tithing, miners make way more than 50%.


EDIT:  This 50% is subject to change, because we are using a deflationary tithe_cap based on a % of charity governance emissions - we will work it out exactly in testnet with an inclient figure.

[Cryptoalt1990]

Hello,
Purepool seems to be down. Last block was found 12 hours ago...
@Light, can you please have a look?

Same here, not sure who to contact, as the contact info on the site points back to this thread.

------

I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around the tithing concept, at least at the ELI5 level. Let me think out loud and maybe we can work it out.

In the traditional sense, tithing is a sort of 10% tax. If I make $1000 a month, my 10% tithe leaves me with $900.

In terms of Boinc, I'm pledging a certain amount of electricity/computing power, and in return I receive a small amount of GRC/Byteball/DCC/BBP/Neumanium.

In the new concept (as I understand it), I can tithe some percent (let's say 10% again) in BBP, and in return I get some amount of BBP. How much I have no idea, or how to take a guess)

This isn't my opinion, but I think the following is a valid question:

If we're really trying to promote giving, why are we getting a kickback reward for the tithing? If I get Y% reward for tithing X%, wouldn't it be more giving to donate X% + Y%? Isn't effectively our tithe reduced by the amount of our reward? You might say the same for Boinc, but there's no return of electricity--it gets used regardless (kind of like traditional tithing).

This isn't my perception, but I think it should be thought out--that to an outsider, the "giving" part of proof-of-giving, isn't a full give, there's a refund involved. Maybe that's the carrot that gets the giving started to begin with?)

It may be that we need to trick encourage people into giving? But for a coin that is charity-based and Christian-based, it might seem odd to be rewarding giving with the same currency (which brings up donating X + Y%). I would always think, "how am I benefiting directly from this giving, is this right?".

Now one could make the same argument for Boinc, but there are two key differences. Boinc is scientific research, not spiritual in nature. And two, that the payment from Boinc isn't in the same currency coming in and going out. If we are totally honest, it seems that a 10% tithe, after rewards, leaves us with more than 90% left.

First, it's not 10% - as that is just a common percent encouraged by mainstream churches - you should tithe 10% of your income to show God that you gave the first fruits and then you trust him even if you dont have enough to pay the rest of your bills with the remaining 90% that he will make ends meet.

The definition of tithe is literally 1/10....which is what is in the Bible...not some random percentage encouraged by "mainstream" churches...but ok...let's have our own definition of words...

[bible_pay]

Hello,
Purepool seems to be down. Last block was found 12 hours ago...
@Light, can you please have a look?

Same here, not sure who to contact, as the contact info on the site points back to this thread.

------

I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around the tithing concept, at least at the ELI5 level. Let me think out loud and maybe we can work it out.

In the traditional sense, tithing is a sort of 10% tax. If I make $1000 a month, my 10% tithe leaves me with $900.

In terms of Boinc, I'm pledging a certain amount of electricity/computing power, and in return I receive a small amount of GRC/Byteball/DCC/BBP/Neumanium.

In the new concept (as I understand it), I can tithe some percent (let's say 10% again) in BBP, and in return I get some amount of BBP. How much I have no idea, or how to take a guess)

This isn't my opinion, but I think the following is a valid question:

If we're really trying to promote giving, why are we getting a kickback reward for the tithing? If I get Y% reward for tithing X%, wouldn't it be more giving to donate X% + Y%? Isn't effectively our tithe reduced by the amount of our reward? You might say the same for Boinc, but there's no return of electricity--it gets used regardless (kind of like traditional tithing).

This isn't my perception, but I think it should be thought out--that to an outsider, the "giving" part of proof-of-giving, isn't a full give, there's a refund involved. Maybe that's the carrot that gets the giving started to begin with?)

It may be that we need to trick encourage people into giving? But for a coin that is charity-based and Christian-based, it might seem odd to be rewarding giving with the same currency (which brings up donating X + Y%). I would always think, "how am I benefiting directly from this giving, is this right?".

Now one could make the same argument for Boinc, but there are two key differences. Boinc is scientific research, not spiritual in nature. And two, that the payment from Boinc isn't in the same currency coming in and going out. If we are totally honest, it seems that a 10% tithe, after rewards, leaves us with more than 90% left.

First, it's not 10% - as that is just a common percent encouraged by mainstream churches - you should tithe 10% of your income to show God that you gave the first fruits and then you trust him even if you dont have enough to pay the rest of your bills with the remaining 90% that he will make ends meet.

The definition of tithe is literally 1/10....which is what is in the Bible...not some random percentage encouraged by mainstream churches...but ok...let's have our own definition of words...

No, tithe is to give.  Please don't make this forum your personal playground (for arguments).  Let's grow up and be more respectful.

When Jesus came, he brought his concise commandments and this did away with a lot of Orthodox Jewish traditions.

"tithe noun
English Language Learners Definition of tithe
: an amount of money that a person gives to a church which is usually equal to 1/10 of that person's income"

The key is usually - I've been saying that all along.  However the word was picked carefully - and it's meaning is "whatever level you are comfortable with"  - you are making a sacrifice from your personal income - and that's the scope of the word in POG.  (In contrast to making up our own use of the word).

[Cryptoalt1990]

Hello,
Purepool seems to be down. Last block was found 12 hours ago...
@Light, can you please have a look?

Same here, not sure who to contact, as the contact info on the site points back to this thread.

------

I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around the tithing concept, at least at the ELI5 level. Let me think out loud and maybe we can work it out.

In the traditional sense, tithing is a sort of 10% tax. If I make $1000 a month, my 10% tithe leaves me with $900.

In terms of Boinc, I'm pledging a certain amount of electricity/computing power, and in return I receive a small amount of GRC/Byteball/DCC/BBP/Neumanium.

In the new concept (as I understand it), I can tithe some percent (let's say 10% again) in BBP, and in return I get some amount of BBP. How much I have no idea, or how to take a guess)

This isn't my opinion, but I think the following is a valid question:

If we're really trying to promote giving, why are we getting a kickback reward for the tithing? If I get Y% reward for tithing X%, wouldn't it be more giving to donate X% + Y%? Isn't effectively our tithe reduced by the amount of our reward? You might say the same for Boinc, but there's no return of electricity--it gets used regardless (kind of like traditional tithing).

This isn't my perception, but I think it should be thought out--that to an outsider, the "giving" part of proof-of-giving, isn't a full give, there's a refund involved. Maybe that's the carrot that gets the giving started to begin with?)

It may be that we need to trick encourage people into giving? But for a coin that is charity-based and Christian-based, it might seem odd to be rewarding giving with the same currency (which brings up donating X + Y%). I would always think, "how am I benefiting directly from this giving, is this right?".

Now one could make the same argument for Boinc, but there are two key differences. Boinc is scientific research, not spiritual in nature. And two, that the payment from Boinc isn't in the same currency coming in and going out. If we are totally honest, it seems that a 10% tithe, after rewards, leaves us with more than 90% left.

First, it's not 10% - as that is just a common percent encouraged by mainstream churches - you should tithe 10% of your income to show God that you gave the first fruits and then you trust him even if you dont have enough to pay the rest of your bills with the remaining 90% that he will make ends meet.

The definition of tithe is literally 1/10....which is what is in the Bible...not some random percentage encouraged by mainstream churches...but ok...let's have our own definition of words...

No, tithe is to give.  Please don't make this forum your personal playground (for arguments).  Let's grow up and be more respectful.

When Jesus came, he brought his concise commandments and this did away with a lot of Orthodox Jewish traditions.

That is just ridiculous that you cannot even agree on the actual definition of a word and have to have your own....and no I did not make this forum my personal playground but thanks. You did not even answer my previous question(s) but you would need to read my post(s) properly to do that I guess, which you do not.

Have a Blessed day.


====

Since you edited you previous post. The word tithe comes from tenth....This should give you a clue. If you look at other translations of the Bible that replaced some instances of the word "tithe" by something else:



Genesis 14:19-20 New International Version (NIV)
19 and he blessed Abram, saying,

“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
    Creator of heaven and earth.
20 And praise be to God Most High,
    who delivered your enemies into your hand.”

Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.



So no, 10% is not just a random percentage by "mainstream" churches.

[secoccular]

First, it's not 10% - as that is just a common percent encouraged by mainstream churches - you should tithe 10% of your income to show God that you gave the first fruits and then you trust him even if you dont have enough to pay the rest of your bills with the remaining 90% that he will make ends meet.

In the scope of POG, Tithe means to give (not to give 10%).

As far as receiving a reward back, the ELI5 part is we tell people that in this mining algorithm, our users "give" (or Tithe) to earn share weight in the pool.

Once you have share weight you are in the pool for 24 hours and will be eligibile for pool rewards.



=-=-=-=-

We are basically using the act of tithing as a replacement for hashpower measurement in our integrated pool.


Why do this?  Because in this way the system can scale to millions of homes without encouraging people to buy expensive GPUs, asics, or VMSs (they can use commodity hardware laying around) etc.

=-=-=-=-=-

Whats nice about this is Proof-of-giving fits very well with a Christian based theme also.

Makes sense. My inner five year old thanks you.

Edit: Looks like purepool is back up now. I'm enjoying the utter simplicity of how it works. Two short lines in the wallet config, and done.

[bible_pay]

Hello,
Purepool seems to be down. Last block was found 12 hours ago...
@Light, can you please have a look?

Same here, not sure who to contact, as the contact info on the site points back to this thread.

------

I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around the tithing concept, at least at the ELI5 level. Let me think out loud and maybe we can work it out.

In the traditional sense, tithing is a sort of 10% tax. If I make $1000 a month, my 10% tithe leaves me with $900.

In terms of Boinc, I'm pledging a certain amount of electricity/computing power, and in return I receive a small amount of GRC/Byteball/DCC/BBP/Neumanium.

In the new concept (as I understand it), I can tithe some percent (let's say 10% again) in BBP, and in return I get some amount of BBP. How much I have no idea, or how to take a guess)

This isn't my opinion, but I think the following is a valid question:

If we're really trying to promote giving, why are we getting a kickback reward for the tithing? If I get Y% reward for tithing X%, wouldn't it be more giving to donate X% + Y%? Isn't effectively our tithe reduced by the amount of our reward? You might say the same for Boinc, but there's no return of electricity--it gets used regardless (kind of like traditional tithing).

This isn't my perception, but I think it should be thought out--that to an outsider, the "giving" part of proof-of-giving, isn't a full give, there's a refund involved. Maybe that's the carrot that gets the giving started to begin with?)

It may be that we need to trick encourage people into giving? But for a coin that is charity-based and Christian-based, it might seem odd to be rewarding giving with the same currency (which brings up donating X + Y%). I would always think, "how am I benefiting directly from this giving, is this right?".

Now one could make the same argument for Boinc, but there are two key differences. Boinc is scientific research, not spiritual in nature. And two, that the payment from Boinc isn't in the same currency coming in and going out. If we are totally honest, it seems that a 10% tithe, after rewards, leaves us with more than 90% left.

First, it's not 10% - as that is just a common percent encouraged by mainstream churches - you should tithe 10% of your income to show God that you gave the first fruits and then you trust him even if you dont have enough to pay the rest of your bills with the remaining 90% that he will make ends meet.

The definition of tithe is literally 1/10....which is what is in the Bible...not some random percentage encouraged by mainstream churches...but ok...let's have our own definition of words...

No, tithe is to give.  Please don't make this forum your personal playground (for arguments).  Let's grow up and be more respectful.

When Jesus came, he brought his concise commandments and this did away with a lot of Orthodox Jewish traditions.

That is just ridiculous that you cannot even agree on the actual definition of a word and have to have your own....and no I did not make this forum my personal playground but thanks. You did not even answer my previous question(s) but you would need to read my post(s) properly to do that I guess, which you do not.

Have a Blessed day.


====

Since you edited you previous post. The word tithe comes from tenth....This should give you a clue. If you look at other translations of the Bible that replaced some instances of the word "tithe" by something else:



Genesis 14:19-20 New International Version (NIV)
19 and he blessed Abram, saying,

“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
    Creator of heaven and earth.
20 And praise be to God Most High,
    who delivered your enemies into your hand.”

Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.



So no, 10% is not just a random percentage by "mainstream" churches.

Thank you for making my point for me - as I mentioned earlier about the old testament - Abram - who is the father of the Jews, set guidelines for tithing for Orthodox Jews. 

Jesus came in 4BC, and created the church age.  The rules are slightly different for when people observe Sabbaths for modern Christians, and in general they have the luxury of setting their own family guidelines for tithing.  Some want to give more than 10%.

Please consider being less argumentative in our forum - this is really a dishonorable activity to put us through - I realize you may have nothing to do but you should be more respectful of my time.

[bible_pay]

POG2 is ready for testnet users:

https://forum.biblepay.org/index.php?topic=335.msg4877#msg4877

Could we please start with 25 or so - then after we find some stability ramp up to 50?

[Cryptoalt1990]

I guess we are back to deleting posts.

Have a Blessed Day.

[bible_pay]

I guess we are back to deleting posts.

Have a Blessed Day.

Please stop posting on the forum unless it meets the guidelines in the OP post (IE being a benefit to others).  Next post is being monitored and will be turned in to the mods.

Yes, argumentative posts that violate the community rules are deleted.

[bible_pay]

I guess we are back to deleting posts.

Have a Blessed Day.

Please stop posting on the forum unless it meets the guidelines in the OP post (IE being a benefit to others).  Next post is being monitored and will be turned in to the mods.

"Almighty" Rob,
 
Have a Blessed Day.

Please don't antagonize on the forum.  And I recommend worshiping Jesus.