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Author Topic: [LABCOIN] IPO [BTCT.CO] - Details/FAQ and Discussion (ASIC dev/sales/mining)  (Read 1058520 times)
radiumsoup
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September 22, 2013, 09:42:41 AM
 #13321

"Even with 20TH or 50TH they won't be able to pay dividents as high as IPO." ?

I dont get that.. So the dividend per share should be IPO price? If that happens..

I mean with difficulty change taken into account, the cumulated dividents won't reach
a value for IPO investors to break even.
you do know that the IPO was to fund the development and production of new chips, right? Not related to the current production, which was prefunded?
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September 22, 2013, 09:46:04 AM
 #13322

"Even with 20TH or 50TH they won't be able to pay dividents as high as IPO." ?

I dont get that.. So the dividend per share should be IPO price? If that happens..

I mean with difficulty change taken into account, the cumulated dividents won't reach
a value for IPO investors to break even.
you do know that the IPO was to fund the development and production of new chips, right? Not related to the current production, which was prefunded?

Yes i know that. But many hope for nice returns in the short term and that's unrealistic.
I just wanted to point out, that this is a longterm investment, which won't gain investors
any profits before Q1-Q2 2014 at best.

Many here seem to think, that now that they are mining they will rake in the money, but
for that to happen there is much work to be done and much time needed.

Donatioins always welcome Wink
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stereotype
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September 22, 2013, 09:49:46 AM
 #13323

"Even with 20TH or 50TH they won't be able to pay dividents as high as IPO." ?

I dont get that.. So the dividend per share should be IPO price? If that happens..

I mean with difficulty change taken into account, the cumulated dividents won't reach
a value for IPO investors to break even.
you do know that the IPO was to fund the development and production of new chips, right? Not related to the current production, which was prefunded?

Yes i know that. But many hope for nice returns in the short term and that's unrealistic.
I just wanted to point out, that this is a longterm investment, which won't gain investors
any profits before Q1-Q2 2014 at best.

Many here seem to think, that now that they are mining they will rake in the money, but
for that to happen there is much work to be done and much time needed.

Im calculating a weekly return of ~1%, based on 10TH/re-investment of 25%/divided into 10,000,000 shares. Please put me right on those base figures if they are wrong.
BitCsByBit
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September 22, 2013, 09:52:43 AM
 #13324

"Even with 20TH or 50TH they won't be able to pay dividents as high as IPO." ?

I dont get that.. So the dividend per share should be IPO price? If that happens..

I mean with difficulty change taken into account, the cumulated dividents won't reach
a value for IPO investors to break even.
you do know that the IPO was to fund the development and production of new chips, right? Not related to the current production, which was prefunded?

Yes i know that. But many hope for nice returns in the short term and that's unrealistic.
I just wanted to point out, that this is a longterm investment, which won't gain investors
any profits before Q1-Q2 2014 at best.

Many here seem to think, that now that they are mining they will rake in the money, but
for that to happen there is much work to be done and much time needed.

As the dividends come in, the share price will increase until the dividend is ~ 30% APR.

I am not sure what you don't understand.

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Ytterbium
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September 22, 2013, 09:53:39 AM
 #13325

OH please, stop talking  nonsense. what you get from the fab is not just the cell library, its also all the design rules and parameters. You can ignore the cell library if you want, like bitfury apparently did, but you cant do any meaningful physical design without adhering to the process rules.  How are you going to implement one  if you dont even know what layers the process has,  transistor width, channel length, and a gazillion other process specific parameters and constraints?

Huh, more of this crap?  

It's not a question of "not knowing" those things, it's a question of having that data for all of the potential feature sizes you want to target. I don't understand why you think you can only know one thing at once.

Quote
Now it really sounds like you've never written software (or maybe aren't any good at it), because you can write software that runs on multiple architectures and operating systems really easily. You don't have to decide if you're writing a Windows program or Linux program before you start, even if you're using a language like C, C++.  You just use different libraries and have the compiler generate binaries for different CPUs.  

Yeah einstein, analogies break down. But if you want to continue it, HDL would be your pseudo code and what you get from the fab is the programming language and compiler. It may be less work to port your code from Java to C++  than starting from scratch, but it aint no last minute job either.
[/quote]

Analogies do break down. I seriously doubt it's equivalent to manually porting a program from Java to C++, or vice versa - but even if it was there are still tools that can convert programs in one programming language into programs into another programming langue automatically. For example C++ to java converter and Java to C++ converter. People use tools that convert other languages to JavaScript all the time.

It certainly wouldn't be a last minute job, but if you were building your program from the start to work after being run through one of these converters (i.e. running it as a compiler step and ensuring that everything worked, including your test cases while developing your code) then you're not going to run into a problem.

The only thing your "analogies" to software development are showing is that you don't know much about it.

Quote
Right. I get it. Because whats really important here is not whether or not Labcoin could ever deploy their 65nm asic before next spring, its who of us knows more about chip design right? Well, as it turns out, it seems I was on the money about labcoins inability and you were not. Probably just a coincidence.

Huh?  They're late, and they're under powered.  But they're only a week late and they're only under-powered by 60%.  And their price is a lot lower then it was a week ago, reflecting reduced expectations.

Anyway, none of that has anything to do with whether or not you can design an IC in a way that's technology flexible.

TradeFortress
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September 22, 2013, 10:01:53 AM
 #13326

Analogies do break down. I seriously doubt it's equivalent to manually porting a program from Java to C++, or vice versa - but even if it was there are still tools that can convert programs in one programming language into programs into another programming langue automatically. For example C++ to java converter and Java to C++ converter. People use tools that convert other languages to JavaScript all the time.

It certainly wouldn't be a last minute job, but if you were building your program from the start to work after being run through one of these converters (i.e. running it as a compiler step and ensuring that everything worked, including your test cases while developing your code) then you're not going to run into a problem.
Unless you're making performance critical ASIC chips. To use an example that you mentioned, CoffeeScript > Javascript often has a 15-25% performance penalty.
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September 22, 2013, 10:04:41 AM
 #13327


As the dividends come in, the share price will increase until the dividend is ~ 30% APR.

I am not sure what you don't understand.

What is there not to understand?
I'll explain it again for you:

The 20-50TH won't be enough to get IPO back for investors, so it will take at least the 65nm
chips to get there.

Even if divs rise to a point where share price has to correct to keep 30% anual return, that will only
be a short spike at best, since the diff increase will eat up "productivity" of the chips pretty quick.

And the 30% is an arbitrary value based on Asicminer, which is a company with a good record and
trust in the community. I doubt, that it can be applied to Labcoin.

But as i always say, everyone should make his own decision for his investments. But i really advice
you to get more information, since you don't seem to understand the connections.

Feel free to ask if anything is unclear.

Donatioins always welcome Wink
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abuelau
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September 22, 2013, 10:08:33 AM
 #13328

"Even with 20TH or 50TH they won't be able to pay dividents as high as IPO." ?

I dont get that.. So the dividend per share should be IPO price? If that happens..

I mean with difficulty change taken into account, the cumulated dividents won't reach
a value for IPO investors to break even.
you do know that the IPO was to fund the development and production of new chips, right? Not related to the current production, which was prefunded?

Yes i know that. But many hope for nice returns in the short term and that's unrealistic.
I just wanted to point out, that this is a longterm investment, which won't gain investors
any profits before Q1-Q2 2014 at best.

Many here seem to think, that now that they are mining they will rake in the money, but
for that to happen there is much work to be done and much time needed.

As the dividends come in, the share price will increase until the dividend is ~ 30% APR.

I am not sure what you don't understand.

Yep, exactly. Go and find out how much is the dividend of a company like Google, Apple, etc... you can't expect to make the price of the stock back in dividends. The dividend is like a loan, you make a bit every month and in the end of one year, I think if you make back 25% of so of the share price, would be excellent.

And then, you can always sell the share back... so you would have made (share sale price + dividends) in the period you held the shares..

Know what's happening in cryptoworld: www.coinschedule.com
bobboooiie
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September 22, 2013, 10:08:36 AM
 #13329

OH comon swede, is it that hard for them to put a picture of rig hashing ?
demzie
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September 22, 2013, 10:09:21 AM
 #13330


As the dividends come in, the share price will increase until the dividend is ~ 30% APR.

I am not sure what you don't understand.

What is there not to understand?
I'll explain it again for you:

The 20-50TH won't be enough to get IPO back for investors, so it will take at least the 65nm
chips to get there.

Even if divs rise to a point where share price has to correct to keep 30% anual return, that will only
be a short spike at best, since the diff increase will eat up "productivity" of the chips pretty quick.

And the 30% is an arbitrary value based on Asicminer, which is a company with a good record and
trust in the community. I doubt, that it can be applied to Labcoin.

But as i always say, everyone should make his own decision for his investments. But i really advice
you to get more information, since you don't seem to understand the connections.

Feel free to ask if anything is unclear.

Hmmz but their goal is not to get 50TH; its to get approx 10-15% or more of the network..
But is doesnt matter how they do that; with current chips or with the next gen chips.. When diff rises they just have to deploy more gen1 chips.. to get their goal.
Or when the time is there the next gen chips..
BitCsByBit
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September 22, 2013, 10:12:38 AM
 #13331


As the dividends come in, the share price will increase until the dividend is ~ 30% APR.

I am not sure what you don't understand.

What is there not to understand?
I'll explain it again for you:

The 20-50TH won't be enough to get IPO back for investors, so it will take at least the 65nm
chips to get there.

Even if divs rise to a point where share price has to correct to keep 30% anual return, that will only
be a short spike at best, since the diff increase will eat up "productivity" of the chips pretty quick.

And the 30% is an arbitrary value based on Asicminer, which is a company with a good record and
trust in the community. I doubt, that it can be applied to Labcoin.

But as i always say, everyone should make his own decision for his investments. But i really advice
you to get more information, since you don't seem to understand the connections.

Feel free to ask if anything is unclear.

With 20-50TH, the share price will be 2-5 times higher than now with dividends of around 30% APR as that is the "standard" in BTC securities.

500TH is planed for December. Gen2 to follow after that with sales and more in house mining.


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Puppet
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September 22, 2013, 10:15:10 AM
 #13332

you do know that the IPO was to fund the development and production of new chips, right? Not related to the current production, which was prefunded?

Since the 65nm chip isnt anywhere near tapeout, most of the NRE charges needed for that chip to become a reality havent been spent yet.
(and one might hope it never gets spent, as I dont believe a 65nm chip, that is apparently still looking for a lead engineer,  is going to be a profitable venture by the time it could feasibly be deployed.).

That leaves you dependent on those 130nm chips of which we have seen no indication to my knowledge of power consumption or production cost,  nor even a clear statement they are ones hashing right now, no compelling evidence they even exist and work.

Correct me if Im wrong, but all we can reasonably assume at this point is that they are hashing with something at a hashrate you could achieve with barely over $10K worth of off bitfuries or a bit more in avalons. And we know TheSwede has ordered both of those. A rather odd thing to do if you expect to be able to produce your own asics at cost.
Ytterbium
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September 22, 2013, 10:17:41 AM
 #13333

Analogies do break down. I seriously doubt it's equivalent to manually porting a program from Java to C++, or vice versa - but even if it was there are still tools that can convert programs in one programming language into programs into another programming langue automatically. For example C++ to java converter and Java to C++ converter. People use tools that convert other languages to JavaScript all the time.

It certainly wouldn't be a last minute job, but if you were building your program from the start to work after being run through one of these converters (i.e. running it as a compiler step and ensuring that everything worked, including your test cases while developing your code) then you're not going to run into a problem.
Unless you're making performance critical ASIC chips. To use an example that you mentioned, CoffeeScript > Javascript often has a 15-25% performance penalty.

Well, scripting languages aren't usually tuned for high performance anyway.  A C++ => Java converter should be able to generate code that's just as fast as if it has been written in the original language.

demzie
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September 22, 2013, 10:18:28 AM
 #13334

"That leaves you dependent on those 130nm chips of which we have seen no indication to my knowledge of power consumption or production cost,  nor even a clear statement they are ones hashing right now, no compelling evidence they even exist and work."

IMHO:
At this point (where hardware sales are not relevant) it does not matter what specs the 130nm chips have..
As long as they have them and deploy them.. In those amounts to reach the TH goals..
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September 22, 2013, 10:24:50 AM
 #13335

"That leaves you dependent on those 130nm chips of which we have seen no indication to my knowledge of power consumption or production cost,  nor even a clear statement they are ones hashing right now, no compelling evidence they even exist and work."

IMHO:
At this point (where hardware sales are not relevant) it does not matter what specs the 130nm chips have..
As long as they have them and deploy them.. In those amounts to reach the TH goals..

The chips aren't free.  They still have to pay for the wafers.  And the PCBs.  And the soldering, and boxes to put them in, and so on.  Those things aren't zero cost.

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September 22, 2013, 10:29:54 AM
 #13336

[
It's not a question of "not knowing" those things, it's a question of having that data for all of the potential feature sizes you want to target. I don't understand why you think you can only know one thing at once.

Wait, you think that information is public knowledge and free?  That you dont have to sign up for an NDA and pay for a design kit? LOL, they dont give you that shit for free.

But that isnt even the real problem, you still dont get it. Even if you would purchase that from every fab on the planet, know the process rules for all processes, you cant make a physical design that will magically universally work with all processes.  You cant even expect a design for TSMC x nm LP to work on their HPL or LP processes. You are going to have to port it, because the process rules are different.

Quote
Analogies do break down. I seriously doubt it's equivalent to manually porting a program from Java to C++, or vice versa -

It depends how different the process is. From TSMC LP to HP might be fairly trivial for a simple chip, but if you were to port from say, Globalfoundries SOI process to TSMC bulk you can basically start all over. Even if the node size is the same.

Quote
Huh?  They're late, and they're under powered.  But they're only a week late and they're only under-powered by 60%.  And their price is a lot lower then it was a week ago, reflecting reduced expectations.

Im talking about their 65nm pipedream chip.
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September 22, 2013, 10:31:07 AM
 #13337


The chips aren't free.  They still have to pay for the wafers.  And the PCBs.  And the soldering, and boxes to put them in, and so on.  Those things aren't zero cost.

And when projecting dividents from mining you have to take the cost of power into consideration.
Because we are not far from difficulty levels, where power consumtion becomes significant for 130nm technology

Donatioins always welcome Wink
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September 22, 2013, 10:39:10 AM
 #13338

>25   labcoin   643.39 GH/s

Guess there's a reset and labcoin's doing PPLNS.
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September 22, 2013, 10:42:14 AM
 #13339


The chips aren't free.  They still have to pay for the wafers.  And the PCBs.  And the soldering, and boxes to put them in, and so on.  Those things aren't zero cost.

And when projecting dividents from mining you have to take the cost of power into consideration.
Because we are not far from difficulty levels, where power consumtion becomes significant for 130nm technology

So how do they play this than?

"The dividends paid will consist of between 70-80% all profits while 20-30% of profits will be held as a reinvestment fund for development, marketing and manufacturing."

I assume costs will be done from that percentage..
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September 22, 2013, 10:46:43 AM
 #13340


The chips aren't free.  They still have to pay for the wafers.  And the PCBs.  And the soldering, and boxes to put them in, and so on.  Those things aren't zero cost.

And when projecting dividents from mining you have to take the cost of power into consideration.
Because we are not far from difficulty levels, where power consumtion becomes significant for 130nm technology

So how do they play this than?

"The dividends paid will consist of between 70-80% all profits while 20-30% of profits will be held as a reinvestment fund for development, marketing and manufacturing."

I assume costs will be done from that percentage..

Beats me man. But the first thing they need to do is get that warning resolved and the share locking figured out. Next we'll see if they can really get anywhere near 20Th/s in two weeks.

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