BFL announces 28nm 600GH/S blade for $4680

[k9quaint]

How can you compare the returns achievable from $1 million worth of GPUs, versus a $30k ASIC?

The are incomparable. The GPUs would have: been paid for by, shipped to, received by, unboxed by, plugged in by, and mined for you.
The $30K ASIC pre-order is most likely only a piece of paper. A few have been delivered, most have not. At this point, it is uncertain that it will ever be more than that.

I would rather have 1 GPU with cgminer on August 29th, 2010 than a $30K ASIC today.

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[bcp19]

RoI is the fiction of the greedy.

No, it's entirely real.  Did you miss the part where I told you my batch 2 avalon has paid for itself, In bitcoin?  

I spent bitcoins I had because I wanted more bitcoins then I started with, and now, I have them.

If difficulty is 1,000,000,000 when you get your unit, simply REFUSE to sell at current prices that equal a loss.  If more and more people do this, the pirice WILL rise.

Which doesn't matter if your goal was to increase the number of bitcoins you have. Which I told you, is the reason I bought an ASIC. Otherwise I would have just kept my bitcoins.

On the other hand, you are saying it's quite alright to fuck over the customer if there is such an artificially high demand and you charge then $1,000,000 for less hash than a mini-rig costing $30k.  SURE you get them in hand NOW, but damn you got ass-raped in the process.

What the fuck are you talking about?  In may of 2011 $1 million dollars could have bought you more then 1.5TH/s. If you'd kept the money the bitcoins you mined would probably be worth $50-100 million dollars.  

The timing matters.  In fact, I think, but I haven't done the math - if you'd spent $1 million dollars on GPUs in June of 2012 instead of spending $30k on a BFL mini-rig, you'd actually have already made a profit by now, given the price increase.  That's the incredible irony of this.   The people who ordered Mini-rigs at that point in time would have been better off buying GPUs.

I agree people shouldn't buy block erupters expecting to get an ROI. I think most people just buy them for fun.

Of course it's BFL's fault. They had faulty information because BFL withheld that information. That was no way to know what effect the other orders would have because BFL chose not to share that information with them.  Which is why I decided not to order from them last year, and went with Avalon instead (I have a batch 2 that's already paid for itself in BTC)

Yet again, the greedy persons view of the world.

Again, are you smoking crack?

Why would someone want to just give free money to BFL in exchange for nothing of value? If they want to give to charity there are lot of worthwhile options.

If you're not a little greedy, there's no reason to care about bitcoin at all.  There's no reason to care about money. If they weren't greedy they would never have bought ASICs in the first place. Why would they?

BFL is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

BFL is damned because their mistakes are in the past.  There is nothing they can do now to rectify the situation, that's what happens.  That's how time works. Mistakes can't always be undone, and the damned stay damned.

If you listen to the shills on the ASICMiner posts, RoI != profit.  RoI is simply Return ON investment.  EVERY MINER HAS AN ROI, some just have a HIGHER RoI than others.  Using your flawed BTC argument, you'll never attain MORE BTC than you spend unless the network has reached saturation, so you should never again buy another new product.

I just told you. My Batch2 Avolon has already paid for itself, in BTC. And it certainly is true that no one should buy a pre-order at this point in time. Anyway people use "ROI" around here to mean positive ROI. If you make less then you pay it's a negative ROI.

can't take any more ignorance.

Ignorance of what?

You're just spewing total nonsense.

You claim to be defending BFL, and yet you say they fucked their customers. You admit their customers will never ROI, and that BFL never intended for them too.  You say the customers should have figured it out, and then you say their customers are only complaining because they're "greedy".  Except if they weren't greedy they never would have bought an ASIC in the first place.

That's like saying you shouldn't complain about getting fucked because the only reason it hurt is because you're too uptight for the giant dick to fit comfortably in your asshole.

You're not defending BFL, certainly not in a way that would make sense to the people they fucked.  We seem to agree on the facts, it's just you don't think there's anything wrong with ripping people off if they're "greedy" and stupid.

It's totally bizarre.

<SIGH> RoI = Return on investment.  If you invest $100 and get $1 in return, that $1 IS a return on investment, albeit a very POOR return.  You use the term to indicate a 100% RoI without specifying that.  Maybe you need to modify HOW you refer to things... FULL RoI, 100%+ RoI, etc.  Buying a CPU/GPU/FPGA/ASIC and mining with it = RoI.  Whether you PROFIT or not is another matter.

I'm skipping ahead cause you are switching logic and misunderstand everything I said and using god knows what, so let's try this:


1) Jun 2013.  ASICMiner opens sales of USB sticks at 2BTC.  as just stated above $1M and assrape.
2) Jun 2012.  BFL starts taking orders and quickly has so many that only the 1st week of them will profit AT CURRENT BTC RATES.

Which is the worst company attitude?  Unintentionally screwing your customers cause their greed will kill the BTC profitability or ass-raping your customers?

[bcp19]

I'm sure I will regret this, but I'm going to answer your question anyway.

927w with a platinum PSU. This is the one area in which BFL is clearly superior. With an identical PSU(Antec 1300w platinum) four BFL Single SCs draw just under 1100w and hash at around 375Gh/s(after mods to their crappy stock cooling). The minirig SC has twin EVGA classified 1500w PSUs and it draws almost exactly 2x this amount.

If you think this is a huge advantage for BFL gear however, then you'd be mistaken. Bitfury has claimed that the first of their finished products have shipped today and this will mark the end of BFL's superiority in the efficiency department, even while the vast majority of their customers victims still await the products they paid for months ago. Operating cost differences between these two products will end up being nearly meaningless IMO. This is why I've chosen to add more hashing power in the form of cheaper and more readily available secondary market Avalons.

Thanks for the reply, looks like you have a very nice setup.  Good luck with it.

[k9quaint]

<SIGH> RoI = Return on investment.  If you invest $100 and get $1 in return, that $1 IS a return on investment, albeit a very POOR return.  You use the term to indicate a 100% RoI without specifying that.  Maybe you need to modify HOW you refer to things... FULL RoI, 100%+ RoI, etc.  Buying a CPU/GPU/FPGA/ASIC and mining with it = RoI.  Whether you PROFIT or not is another matter.

Here is the formula for ROI:
ROI = (gain from investment - cost of investment) / (cost of investment)

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/returnoninvestment.asp
ROI is a measure of profit, not revenue.
"In the above formula "gains from investment", refers to the proceeds obtained from selling the investment of interest. Return on investment is a very popular metric because of its versatility and simplicity. That is, if an investment does not have a positive ROI, or if there are other opportunities with a higher ROI, then the investment should be not be undertaken."

So your example would yield a -99% ROI.

[bcp19]

<SIGH> RoI = Return on investment.  If you invest $100 and get $1 in return, that $1 IS a return on investment, albeit a very POOR return.  You use the term to indicate a 100% RoI without specifying that.  Maybe you need to modify HOW you refer to things... FULL RoI, 100%+ RoI, etc.  Buying a CPU/GPU/FPGA/ASIC and mining with it = RoI.  Whether you PROFIT or not is another matter.

Here is the formula for ROI:
ROI = (gain from investment - cost of investment) / (cost of investment)

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/returnoninvestment.asp
ROI is a measure of profit, not revenue.
"In the above formula "gains from investment", refers to the proceeds obtained from selling the investment of interest. Return on investment is a very popular metric because of its versatility and simplicity. That is, if an investment does not have a positive ROI, or if there are other opportunities with a higher ROI, then the investment should be not be undertaken."

So your example would yield a -99% ROI.

Exactly.  A poor RoI but it is RoI nonetheless.

[Ytterbium]

<SIGH> RoI = Return on investment.  If you invest $100 and get $1 in return, that $1 IS a return on investment, albeit a very POOR return.  You use the term to indicate a 100% RoI without specifying that.  Maybe you need to modify HOW you refer to things... FULL RoI, 100%+ RoI, etc.  Buying a CPU/GPU/FPGA/ASIC and mining with it = RoI.  Whether you PROFIT or not is another matter.

No. You're confused. Because you're an idiot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_on_investment

For a single-period review divide the return (net profit) by the resources that were committed (investment):[2]
    return on investment (%) = (Net profit / Investment) × 100
or
    return on investment = gain from investment/ cost of investment[1]

Let's do the math, since it seems like you're not capable of it yourself.

If you spend $100, and you earn back $1 Then your net profit is $-99.

$-99/$100 * 100% = -99%

Seriously, how fucking stupid are you?  This is a commonly used, mathematically defined, investment term with a specific meaning.

Yes, every miner has an ROI.  But in some cases, those ROIs are NEGATIVE.

[bcp19]

<SIGH> RoI = Return on investment.  If you invest $100 and get $1 in return, that $1 IS a return on investment, albeit a very POOR return.  You use the term to indicate a 100% RoI without specifying that.  Maybe you need to modify HOW you refer to things... FULL RoI, 100%+ RoI, etc.  Buying a CPU/GPU/FPGA/ASIC and mining with it = RoI.  Whether you PROFIT or not is another matter.

No. You're confused. Because you're an idiot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_on_investment

For a single-period review divide the return (net profit) by the resources that were committed (investment):[2]
   return on investment (%) = (Net profit / Investment) × 100
or
     return on investment = gain from investment/ cost of investment[1]

Let's do the math, since it seems like you're not capable of it yourself.

If you spend $100, and you earn back $1 Then your net profit is $-99.

$-99/$100 * 100% = -99%

Seriously, how fucking stupid are you?  This is a commonly used, mathematically defined, investment term with a specific meaning.

Yes, every miner has an ROI.  But in some cases, those ROIs are NEGATIVE.

and yet it is STILL RoI.

[Ytterbium]

Yes, every miner has an ROI.  But in some cases, those ROIs are NEGATIVE.

and yet it is STILL RoI.

A negative ROI. Saying that something has negative ROI "has ROI" is like saying someone in debt "has money" because negative money is still money.

Obviously when people say something "has an ROI" they mean having a positive ROI.  There's no misunderstanding that unless you are totally delusional.

[bcp19]

Yes, every miner has an ROI.  But in some cases, those ROIs are NEGATIVE.

and yet it is STILL RoI.

A negative ROI. Saying that something has negative ROI "has ROI" is like saying someone in debt "has money" because negative money is still money.

We can argue semantic all day.  Let's get back to the meat of it:

1) Jun 2013.  ASICMiner opens sales of USB sticks at 2BTC.  as just stated above $1M and assrape.
2) Jun 2012.  BFL starts taking orders and quickly has so many that only the 1st week of them will profit AT CURRENT BTC RATES.

Which is the worst company attitude?  Unintentionally screwing your customers cause their greed will kill the BTC profitability or ass-raping your customers?

[gooryheta]

Yes, every miner has an ROI.  But in some cases, those ROIs are NEGATIVE.

and yet it is STILL RoI.

A negative ROI. Saying that something has negative ROI "has ROI" is like saying someone in debt "has money" because negative money is still money.

Well at least you get part of your investment back. With -100 ROI you get nothing, zero (not counting happiness when the unit finally arrives)

[creativex]

You seem to be forgetting that BFL repeatedly lied about delivery times and power consumption. This made their products appear to be a far better value than they were. While I agree ASICMiner's products were(and are) overpriced IMO, there's nothing deceitful about maximizing their shareholders' value by keeping their prices high in the absence of any honest or competent competition. The ass rapist award goes to BFL.

Yes, every miner has an ROI.  But in some cases, those ROIs are NEGATIVE.

and yet it is STILL RoI.

A negative ROI. Saying that something has negative ROI "has ROI" is like saying someone in debt "has money" because negative money is still money.

We can argue semantic all day.  Let's get back to the meat of it:

1) Jun 2013.  ASICMiner opens sales of USB sticks at 2BTC.  as just stated above $1M and assrape.
2) Jun 2012.  BFL starts taking orders and quickly has so many that only the 1st week of them will profit AT CURRENT BTC RATES.

Which is the worst company attitude?  Unintentionally screwing your customers cause their greed will kill the BTC profitability or ass-raping your customers?

[k9quaint]

<SIGH> RoI = Return on investment.  If you invest $100 and get $1 in return, that $1 IS a return on investment, albeit a very POOR return.  You use the term to indicate a 100% RoI without specifying that.  Maybe you need to modify HOW you refer to things... FULL RoI, 100%+ RoI, etc.  Buying a CPU/GPU/FPGA/ASIC and mining with it = RoI.  Whether you PROFIT or not is another matter.

No. You're confused. Because you're an idiot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_on_investment

For a single-period review divide the return (net profit) by the resources that were committed (investment):[2]
   return on investment (%) = (Net profit / Investment) × 100
or
     return on investment = gain from investment/ cost of investment[1]

Let's do the math, since it seems like you're not capable of it yourself.

If you spend $100, and you earn back $1 Then your net profit is $-99.

$-99/$100 * 100% = -99%

Seriously, how fucking stupid are you?  This is a commonly used, mathematically defined, investment term with a specific meaning.

Yes, every miner has an ROI.  But in some cases, those ROIs are NEGATIVE.

and yet it is STILL RoI.

Returns refer to profit. Returns on investment refers to the profit on that investment. Postive ROI means there was some profit on that investment and that is what people mean by generating ROI. A negative number quanitifies the absence of returns, how far away from profit were you. Just like on a balance sheet, a negative number designates the absence of money.

[Ytterbium]

Yes, every miner has an ROI.  But in some cases, those ROIs are NEGATIVE.

and yet it is STILL RoI.

A negative ROI. Saying that something has negative ROI "has ROI" is like saying someone in debt "has money" because negative money is still money.

We can argue semantic all day.  Let's get back to the meat of it:

1) Jun 2013.  ASICMiner opens sales of USB sticks at 2BTC.  as just stated above $1M and assrape.
2) Jun 2012.  BFL starts taking orders and quickly has so many that only the 1st week of them will profit AT CURRENT BTC RATES.

Which is the worst company attitude?  Unintentionally screwing your customers cause their greed will kill the BTC profitability or ass-raping your customers?

There is nothing unintentional about what you described. You just keep saying BFL customers deserved to get fucked because they were greedy and stupid.

And like I said.  That's not a defense of BFL.

You're just telling everyone they should never do business with you, since you think there's nothing wrong with fucking your customers.

[bcp19]

We can argue semantic all day.  Let's get back to the meat of it:

1) Jun 2013.  ASICMiner opens sales of USB sticks at 2BTC.  as just stated above $1M and assrape.
2) Jun 2012.  BFL starts taking orders and quickly has so many that only the 1st week of them will profit AT CURRENT BTC RATES.

Which is the worst company attitude?  Unintentionally screwing your customers cause their greed will kill the BTC profitability or ass-raping your customers?

There is nothing unintentional about what you described. You just keep saying BFL customers deserved to get fucked because they were greedy and stupid.

And like I said.  That's not a defense of BFL.

You're just telling everyone they should never do business with you, since you think there's nothing wrong with fucking your customers.

YOU said ASICMiner customers deserved to get fucked for not doing their research, yet BFL customers DON'T deserved to get fucked for their short-sightedness.  YOU are the one calling it both ways.  I am not defending either side, I am just trying to get you to stop contradicting yourself.

[Ytterbium]

YOU said ASICMiner customers deserved to get fucked for not doing their research, yet BFL customers DON'T deserved to get fucked for their short-sightedness.  YOU are the one calling it both ways.  I am not defending either side, I am just trying to get you to stop contradicting yourself.

All I said about ASICMiner was this:

At least with the block erupters people know what the hashrate and difficulty growth will look like when they get them, since they'll be getting them right away. A lot of people buy them just for fun.

That's it. You're lying when you say otherwise.

You really are starting to come across like a raving lunatic. And you've never explained why you're so invested in defending a company that you agree is fucking their own customers. It's like you're just angry about the fact that people are upset that a company is fucking their own customers. It's totally bizzare.

[PuertoLibre]

bcp19, My fellow shill in arms. I have to pat you on the back for doing all this effort to date. Now is the time for you to retire to BFL headquarters. They need you there to put away some dishes and dirty towels.

Don't worry, I will take over your hard job from this point on.

========================[Puts on Master SHILL Hat]=================
@ Detractors
I agree with everything you say, except, in cases where you say BFL is the shit! (read into that as you will!)

[Xian01]

 All this talk of ASICMiner product not making ROI is a little bit short-sighted, and leaves me a bit confused at times.

 Look at a timeline 275-360 days away and you begin to get a more reasonable picture, even including the difficulty increases.

 It's a bit amusing that I mumble to myself many times a day with pool payouts set at 0.1 BTC, that I'll say to "Ooh, just ROI'd on another Erupter USB..." (couple hours later) "Oooh ! I just ROI'd on another Erupter USB" (couple more hours later) "Oooh ! I just paid for another Erupter USB..." etc

 Maybe I'm missing something somewhere, but I've never been into Bitcoin mining for hopes of a quick ROI; it just happened to work out due to timing and persistence that I'm way in the black.

  I realize that ROIing on 0.1 BTC Erupters is a different matter entirely than ROIing on 2 BTC Erupters, but on a long enough time-line, they WILL pay for themselves. I've calculated that timeline to be about a year, and I'm OK with that all things considered.

 YMMV of course, but just wanted to offer a different perspective.

 *shrugs*

[bcp19]

YOU said ASICMiner customers deserved to get fucked for not doing their research, yet BFL customers DON'T deserved to get fucked for their short-sightedness.  YOU are the one calling it both ways.  I am not defending either side, I am just trying to get you to stop contradicting yourself.

All I said about ASICMiner was this:

At least with the block erupters people know what the hashrate and difficulty growth will look like when they get them, since they'll be getting them right away. A lot of people buy them just for fun.

That's it. You're lying when you say otherwise.

You really are starting to come across like a raving lunatic. And you've never explained why you're so invested in defending a company that you agree is fucking their own customers. It's like you're just angry about the fact that people are upset that a company is fucking their own customers. It's totally bizzare.

Your problem is you are stuck on BFL and refuse to open your eyes to the bigger picture.  By your own admission, BFL taking orders from customers that will kill BTC profitability is fucking their customers.  USING THIS SAME LOGIC OF YOURS, every company today that cannot put a product in hand in the next 2 weeks IS DOING THE EXACT SAME THING.  But you cannot believe this, you are stuck on BFL hate and cannot see the forest for the trees.

Your 'people know what the hashrate and difficulty growth will look like when they get them' makes me laugh. June 01 2013: BTC = ~$125 Network Hash = ~100TH  Difficulty = ~13M  estimated growth rate = 28% per month.  Using these figures, Difficulty should be 27 million today.  That fantastic USB that sold for 2BTC would be sitting at -45% RoI having only made a whopping 1.1BTC and after 12 months, you have 1.66BTC and earning .02BTC monthly with a 200 million difficulty..  But here was are today... Difficulty is already 65.7 million and climbing fast.  That's an average 72% monthly increase and that 1.1BTC is in reality down to .81BTC and the 12 month outlook is .91 BTC.  BUT!!! They knew what they were getting into.

[bcp19]

bcp19, My fellow shill in arms. I have to pat you on the back for doing all this effort to date. Now is the time for you to retire to BFL headquarters. They need you there to put away some dishes and dirty towels.

Don't worry, I will take over your hard job from this point on.

========================[Puts on Master SHILL Hat]=================
@ Detractors
I agree with everything you say, except, in cases where you say BFL is the shit! (read into that as you will!)

I understand your meaning, but I don't even have a BFL hat on at the moment.

Everyone is so blinded by BFL hate they cannot see the big picture.  While I predicted today to be up close to 1PH network speed, I'm really not off by much(Since the network was less than 150TH when I predicted it).  My 7PH prediction by Nov 1 is looking a bit shaky as more and more companies delay.

When the logic states that it is criminal for BFL to sell so much product that their customers cannot make a positive RoI in 90 days(read fucked them), where does that leave us today?  NO company can guarantee a positive RoI in 90 days, yet ONLY BFL is fucking customers.  By this logic alone ASICMiner has fucked his customers since June cause those USB's will never earn positive RoI.

How many USB's you got Xian??? Since my GPU running ~300MH is getting .0023 daily I'd say yours are getting .0026 a day each maximum.  40 would be ~.104 per day, so your 'every couple hours' means you have like 320-500 of them.  I am confused over the .1 pricing though, last I checked they were at ~.35.

[Xian01]

I am confused

 This is why many people have you on ignore.