Black Arrow 28nm 100Ghash Bitcoin ASIC from $0.49/GH/s

[Biomech]

but black arrow are purportedly the designers of the hardware, and very silly con, the manufacturers... so WHO ARE working the REAL fab-houses for Black Arrow, or is that just a step too far?

i'll wait for these posts to be deleted, AGAIN.

Probably TSMC.

possibly, but TSMC are currently putting full endeavour into 20nm (2 fab houses) and according to news, are opening another 2 fab houses in march.. doesn't leave much space to fab old tech? I may be wrong but i don't see why they would be making 28nm, when they have facility to produce 20nm... I'd reckon they'd be more focussed on doing the new tech, and progressing to 14nm... thoughts?

Do you have any idea about what you're talking about.

Sorry if that sounds rude but literally a few posts before you someone confirmed the chips will be made by global foundries.

And just because 20nm exists doesn't mean the larger process sizes are useless. IIRC tsmc only made like 25% of their revenue from 28nm and the rest from larger sizes. Also the advantages of 20nm may not be significant enough to justify the nre costs.

Wasn't me, though I did see that after I posted the above.

[raskul]

but black arrow are purportedly the designers of the hardware, and very silly con, the manufacturers... so WHO ARE working the REAL fab-houses for Black Arrow, or is that just a step too far?

i'll wait for these posts to be deleted, AGAIN.

Probably TSMC.

possibly, but TSMC are currently putting full endeavour into 20nm (2 fab houses) and according to news, are opening another 2 fab houses in march.. doesn't leave much space to fab old tech? I may be wrong but i don't see why they would be making 28nm, when they have facility to produce 20nm... I'd reckon they'd be more focussed on doing the new tech, and progressing to 14nm... thoughts?

Do you have any idea about what you're talking about.

Sorry if that sounds rude but literally a few posts before you someone confirmed the chips will be made by global foundries.

And just because 20nm exists doesn't mean the larger process sizes are useless. IIRC tsmc only made like 25% of their revenue from 28nm and the rest from larger sizes. Also the advantages of 20nm may not be significant enough to justify the nre costs.

sure, no problem, TSMC have a good number of fab houses, and yes, I replied to Biomech without seeing that globalfoundries post.

However I do think I know a bit about what i'm talking about, it's interesting, and as such, i enjoy reading up on tech (not limited to discussion forums) - but please don't think i'm just trolling, as my username states, I can be a bit of an antagonist at times, and i'm not saying that i'm immune to being wrong, and i'm happy to admit, when i'm wrong... but I still have issues with any type of pre-order, because i have been stung in the past and I do a lot of :facepalm: seeing posts regarding pre-orders... anyway, i'm interested in this thread because when the rigs are shipped, I want to know how they perform and the customer experience. I'll be keen to get a black arrow rig when I can get one (in stock). the problems you are all experiencing in the order process are not new problems, moreover, they are recurring problems -  a lot of this industry is based on trust, and with trust, often comes panic. It's good to get the facts on an issue, and people's minds can be put to rest.

anyway, i'm rambling now... Black Arrow have a good future offering and i'll be glad to be part of it, if and when I think it's worthwhile to do so.

best,

R

[Biomech]

They basically said exactly what BA had been telling us. If that would be a violation of the NDA, then BA would have been in violation of it a long time ago. Specifics about the deal are under NDA most likely, not broad facts that BA has been telling us this whole time (ie 28nm ASIC being made by verisilicon and globalfoundries)

Yes, I understand...but that does not detract from standard corporate policy of...keeping you mouth shut. BA can say all they want...it's their Tech. But Veri is under an NDA and That email blows it right out of the water. Think about it. How long do you think a company that handles other company's proprietary technology under NDAs would last if they had employees that talked to general population about said technology?

It doesn't make sense...IMO

Handing out proprietary technology =/= Confirming a non-secretive contract with a company

BlackArrow had asked earlier that some people contact Verisilicon. I would assume that prior to doing that, he/she/they/it would have contacted Verisilicon and said "some fuckstains will be contacting you. This is what you can reveal without us getting butthurt" or something to that effect. What was addressed in the reply was not proprietary information, as BlackArrow has stated a relationship with Verisilicon since they first announced the project. Confirmations of this sort are not unheard of. More often it relates to "established" press people, but the internets have changed that paradigm beyond recognition, so that does not trouble me.

On a side note, Phinneas Gage is not trolling. Trolling is dragging a baited line behind a boat. PG is dynamite fishing.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

But about pg, I am not sure if it is considered trolling under the textbook definition, but a "crusade" set on making BA look bad based on incredibly flimsy findings certainly doesn't help anyone.

Was mostly joking there. PG goes overboard, but has often exposed some pretty elaborate scams. I find him entertaining, though I would not want to be in his crosshairs. FWIW I don't think BA is a scam, but I also have no skin in this. Minersource and DMZ are definitely not scams, whatever the past of their respective officers.

I think the community needs crusaders like Bruno, but we also need to have our personal bullshit detectors set on max at all times. Regardless of desire and motive. I take a middle line on practically everything here. I've been dead wrong a couple of times, on the money once, and the rest kinda held to the middle. Bitcoin ASIC companies tend to not have their shit wired. That is my starting assumption with all of them. So far the only exception has been Bitmain, which I initially thought was a scam.

[Biomech]

They basically said exactly what BA had been telling us. If that would be a violation of the NDA, then BA would have been in violation of it a long time ago. Specifics about the deal are under NDA most likely, not broad facts that BA has been telling us this whole time (ie 28nm ASIC being made by verisilicon and globalfoundries)

Yes, I understand...but that does not detract from standard corporate policy of...keeping you mouth shut. BA can say all they want...it's their Tech. But Veri is under an NDA and That email blows it right out of the water. Think about it. How long do you think a company that handles other company's proprietary technology under NDAs would last if they had employees that talked to general population about said technology?

It doesn't make sense...IMO

Handing out proprietary technology =/= Confirming a non-secretive contract with a company

BlackArrow had asked earlier that some people contact Verisilicon. I would assume that prior to doing that, he/she/they/it would have contacted Verisilicon and said "some fuckstains will be contacting you. This is what you can reveal without us getting butthurt" or something to that effect. What was addressed in the reply was not proprietary information, as BlackArrow has stated a relationship with Verisilicon since they first announced the project. Confirmations of this sort are not unheard of. More often it relates to "established" press people, but the internets have changed that paradigm beyond recognition, so that does not trouble me.

On a side note, Phinneas Gage is not trolling. Trolling is dragging a baited line behind a boat. PG is dynamite fishing.

What really pisses me off is that I can dispute this. 

Well, perhaps by saying you're grenade fishing.... LoL.

[Andrew64]

blackarrow: could you please give an estimate on when minion chip orders will ship, if ordered right now? Will the 20 Feb batch fulfill all existing orders?

Please post updated docs when available, incl. the FCBGA pin assignment (if I haven't missed that in the preliminary doc).

[TinkerTom]

blackarrow: could you please give an estimate on when minion chip orders will ship, if ordered right now? Will the 20 Feb batch fulfill all existing orders?

Please post updated docs when available, incl. the FCBGA pin assignment (if I haven't missed that in the preliminary doc).

Better get set for some reading time and catch up on the thread. Minions won't ship until May.

[dmmr]

Bobsag most likely will not respond to any delay notices, because you already know of the delay...
I agree, that you would like something from him...  just hang tight, he does deliver at the end of the day.
i've sent him some emails in which he has not responded, at the end of the day, i found my answers else where.

[thomas_s]

Bobsag most likely not respond to any delay notices, because you already know of the delay...
I agree, that you would like something from him...  just hang tight, he does deliver at the end of the day.
i've sent him some emails in which he has not responded, at the end of the day, i found my answers else where.

What bothers me is that they keep saying they have fixed the problem and will reply to questions faster, but it never seems to be true. Why say the new accounts will be created in 72 hours when you know they won't be? Sigh...

They've begun to post updates on their facebook page, and posted that in the coming weeks they would have emails being sent out. These updates on facebook began on Feb 12th, 72 hours after Feb 9th.

In addition to the posted: We will be vastly improving our CS, with a new Email System, Ticket system, imported database (sorry its taking so long!), Facebook / Twitter (Soon!) teams. We hope this will vastly improve our CS, and connect with our valuable customers. We will be having weekly updates from BA now posted to at least Facebook, with a Email Wide, and Twitter following in the next few weeks.

https://www.facebook.com/minersource

[TechByPC]

Bobsag most likely not respond to any delay notices, because you already know of the delay...
I agree, that you would like something from him...  just hang tight, he does deliver at the end of the day.
i've sent him some emails in which he has not responded, at the end of the day, i found my answers else where.

What bothers me is that they keep saying they have fixed the problem and will reply to questions faster, but it never seems to be true. Why say the new accounts will be created in 72 hours when you know they won't be? Sigh...

They've begun to post updates on their facebook page, and posted that in the coming weeks they would have emails being sent out. These updates on facebook began on Feb 12th, 72 hours after Feb 9th.

In addition to the posted: We will be vastly improving our CS, with a new Email System, Ticket system, imported database (sorry its taking so long!), Facebook / Twitter (Soon!) teams. We hope this will vastly improve our CS, and connect with our valuable customers. We will be having weekly updates from BA now posted to at least Facebook, with a Email Wide, and Twitter following in the next few weeks.

https://www.facebook.com/minersource

This is good to know. I don't understand why it is so hard to send out a mass email. I pulled out (or am trying to pull out) of R17 with a refund to my shares mostly because I don't trust that the interests of the customers are a priority for Bobsag3. I was unaware of the facebook page, and although I despise facebook, I will keep an eye out there. It's so much better and easier to change a web page than post on facebook that I don't understand why he's gone that way. At any rate, I still have a BA hardware order from minersource that I have not asked to cancel, but I think it is pretty bad that aside from this forum and facebook there has been no notification of the delay. Emails are selectively replied to: I asked a pre-sales question and was answered almost immediately, but a post sales question has been ignored. Minersource found the time to add new products to the web page, but has not found the time to send out an email, post about delays on that webpage, or import/convert the database.

[sticky]

I too am attempting to get a refund on R17 from Bobsag3. I sure he'll get to it, with all the questions about orders here and all the people wanting refunds for R17, the guy's head must be spinning. I'm not gonna be a jerk about it just yet.

[bobsag3]

Bobsag most likely not respond to any delay notices, because you already know of the delay...
I agree, that you would like something from him...  just hang tight, he does deliver at the end of the day.
i've sent him some emails in which he has not responded, at the end of the day, i found my answers else where.

What bothers me is that they keep saying they have fixed the problem and will reply to questions faster, but it never seems to be true. Why say the new accounts will be created in 72 hours when you know they won't be? Sigh...

They've begun to post updates on their facebook page, and posted that in the coming weeks they would have emails being sent out. These updates on facebook began on Feb 12th, 72 hours after Feb 9th.

In addition to the posted: We will be vastly improving our CS, with a new Email System, Ticket system, imported database (sorry its taking so long!), Facebook / Twitter (Soon!) teams. We hope this will vastly improve our CS, and connect with our valuable customers. We will be having weekly updates from BA now posted to at least Facebook, with a Email Wide, and Twitter following in the next few weeks.

https://www.facebook.com/minersource

This is good to know. I don't understand why it is so hard to send out a mass email. I pulled out (or am trying to pull out) of R17 with a refund to my shares mostly because I don't trust that the interests of the customers are a priority for Bobsag3. I was unaware of the facebook page, and although I despise facebook, I will keep an eye out there. It's so much better and easier to change a web page than post on facebook that I don't understand why he's gone that way. At any rate, I still have a BA hardware order from minersource that I have not asked to cancel, but I think it is pretty bad that aside from this forum and facebook there has been no notification of the delay. Emails are selectively replied to: I asked a pre-sales question and was answered almost immediately, but a post sales question has been ignored. Minersource found the time to add new products to the web page, but has not found the time to send out an email, post about delays on that webpage, or import/convert the database.

\
Im literally in the middle of deploying our new help desk software (going to have actual tickets now, and everything back that we lost from the old site, the database has been taking much longer so we could also pull along the ticket system). Once we have that in place and integrated, all emails will now be auto created into tickets, and assigned to our new CS reps. Within the next month things should get much smoother, and with that much better comunication channels.

[TooDumbForBitcoin]

some fuckstains will be contacting you.

Yes!  Outstanding technical jargon.  I believe this is the first use of this word other than by my own self that I have ever seen.

I was going to use it in my brainwallet, but now that it's appeared in print, it will be all over the rainbow tables.

[quantguy]

Im literally in the middle of deploying our new help desk software (going to have actual tickets now, and everything back that we lost from the old site, the database has been taking much longer so we could also pull along the ticket system). Once we have that in place and integrated, all emails will now be auto created into tickets, and assigned to our new CS reps. Within the next month things should get much smoother, and with that much better comunication channels.

Dude, just give him his money back.

[Biomech]

some fuckstains will be contacting you.

Yes!  Outstanding technical jargon.  I believe this is the first use of this word other than by my own self that I have ever seen.

I was going to use it in my brainwallet, but now that it's appeared in print, it will be all over the rainbow tables.

Shows my age Was pretty common in the late 70's.

[TooDumbForBitcoin]

Shows my age Smiley Was pretty common in the late 70's.

That's when I got out of the army and started college.  Those two places were the ruin of me, along with high school, the Catholic church, and my childhood.

BTW, is that why you're a Senior Member?

[Airwhale]

Hey Folks,

In an attempt to bring us back on track...

So,  what exactly needs to be done, if tapeout ends next friday,  and they need to get their miners shipped by May 1st? Can it all be done in 69 days?

Also,  the rent-a-minon program starts May 1st?  Or when your miner ships? (which is subject to a que, at least)

[Stedsm]

Hey Folks,

In an attempt to bring us back on track...

So,  what exactly needs to be done, if tapeout ends next friday,  and they need to get their miners shipped by May 1st? Can it all be done in 69 days?

"From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In electronics design, tape-out or tapeout is the final result of the design cycle for integrated circuits or printed circuit boards, the point at which the artwork for the photomask of a circuit is sent for manufacture.[1]

Some sources have indicated that the roots of the term can be traced back to the time when paper tape and later magnetic tape reels were loaded with the final electronic files used to create the photomask at the factory.[1] Other sources reference the early days of printed circuit design, when the enlarged (for higher precision) "artwork" for the photomask was manually "taped out" using black line tape and adhesive-backed die cut elements on sheets of PET film. Subsequently the artwork was photographically reduced.[2] A similar process was used for early integrated circuits.[3]

The term tapeout currently is used to describe the creation of the photomask itself from the final approved electronic CAD file. This stage is sometimes referred to as PG, for Pattern Generation. Designers may use this term to refer to the writing of the final file to disk or CD and its subsequent transmission to the foundry; however, in current practice the foundry will perform checks and make modifications to the mask design specific to the manufacturing process before actual tapeout. Optical proximity correction is an example of such an advanced mask modification; it corrects for the wave-like behavior of light when etching the nano scale features of the most modern integrated circuits.[1]

A modern IC has to go through a long and complex design process before it is ready for tape-out. Many of the steps along the way utilize software tools collectively known as electronic design automation (EDA). The design must then go through a series of verification steps collectively known as "signoff" before it can be taped-out. Tape-out is usually a cause for celebration by everyone who worked on the project, followed by trepidation awaiting the first article, the first physical samples of a chip from the manufacturing facility (semiconductor foundry).

The weeks before the tapeout are categorized as 'sleepless nights' in the parlance of IC Designers.

First tapeout is rarely the end of work for the design team. Most chips will go through a set of spins in which fixes are implemented after testing the first article. Many different factors can cause a spin, including:

    The taped-out design fails final checks at the foundry due to problems manufacturing the design itself.
    The design is successfully fabricated, but the first article fails functionality tests."

2: Go here and watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvluuAIiA50 This is the single most time consuming step left.

3; The little chips are sent to a company that will "package" them into a working ASIC "Minion" that you see represented on the BA web site.

4: While this is all happening BA is finishing the PCB boards these chips will be mounted on and final case design. Everything else is done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIsUJo-sGwEhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9ybLGF1AkYhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjs9KjAaRew

5: the rest is just simple assembly.

Is there enough time? Nobody can really say for sure but if everything goes well they should be able, but refer back to the "Tape out"  this is still the biggest area of concern at this time.

This to the best of my knowledge and may have left something out.

[elasticband]

A miner which use asicminer gen3 chip now on pre-sale, the poster is very famous in Chinese Bitcoin circle. This is the translation of the weibo post:

Miner presale Details:
Miner price :11000 RMB/T (1813 USD/T), full payment in advance.
Power consumption: 600W/T.
If a single miner's speed doesn't meet the design requirements, or beyond the design requirements, in accordance 11000RMB / T price, refund for any overpayment or a supplemental payment for any deficiency.
If you order more than 10T , it is 10000RMB/T.
April 20 is the deadline, if not shipped on time, we'll give you a full refund!
Tel: 13581816335 Zhao Dong's QQ group: 326548639

In the weibo below, one people replys:
So cheap, is it Asicminer's chip?
Zhao replys:"Yes"
Then he ask again:
Asicminer's gen3 haven't tapeout yet, can it mass production in April?
Zhao replys:"Almost"

Sorry for my poor English translation, the original weibo can be found here:
http://weibo.com/1658066713/AwIw85hLy

thats $1800 for 1TH

[bennybong]

Just a quick question... I paid in bitcoin, IF I were to request a refund would I get back $6000 worth of btc or just my btc back? Seeing as the recent price drop and all....

[Kaega]

A miner which use asicminer gen3 chip now on pre-sale, the poster is very famous in Chinese Bitcoin circle. This is the translation of the weibo post:

Miner presale Details:
Miner price :11000 RMB/T (1813 USD/T), full payment in advance.
Power consumption: 600W/T.
If a single miner's speed doesn't meet the design requirements, or beyond the design requirements, in accordance 11000RMB / T price, refund for any overpayment or a supplemental payment for any deficiency.
If you order more than 10T , it is 10000RMB/T.
April 20 is the deadline, if not shipped on time, we'll give you a full refund!
Tel: 13581816335 Zhao Dong's QQ group: 326548639

In the weibo below, one people replys:
So cheap, is it Asicminer's chip?
Zhao replys:"Yes"
Then he ask again:
Asicminer's gen3 haven't tapeout yet, can it mass production in April?
Zhao replys:"Almost"

Sorry for my poor English translation, the original weibo can be found here:
http://weibo.com/1658066713/AwIw85hLy

thats $1800 for 1TH

Let it be so... with order->ship within 48 hours.