NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[zorke]

They can start PMing people from here who are active and faithful to NXT and offer them bulk quantities in discount prices!

If I had 100M nxt I would probably do this for at least 20-30M nxt.

And no one needs to know it (to affect the market).

+1

Just the thought of this taking place while I have BTC locked in various IPOs...  is making me want to puke from the sense of agony!   

I am ready to talk about buying a bigger stake.

Me too, it would be nice if they decided to do this.

[pinarello]

Okay, NIP doc is on the wiki page, thank you joefox


http://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/wiki/NIP:Nxt_Improvement_Proposals


one of the committees have to decide how to go on with this.

how will NIP flow be.

[EmoneyRu]

Yeah, I´ll buy a lot of Nxt and then...

Participate in NOX?

[CIYAM]

@CIYAM: Is there a special reason for taking this approach

Code:

         int divisor = rand( ) % 10;

         if( divisor == 0 )
            ++divisor;

         weights[ i ] = ( rand( ) % 10000 ) * ( balances[ i ] / divisor );

instead of taking an approach equivalent to the nxt implementation?
Something like

Code:

         weights[ i ] = ( rand( ) % 10000 ) / balances[ i ];

Until I made that change the figures were coming out very badly indeed (try changing and you'll see yourself).

From how I gather that it works is that the "time" (in discreet intervals) affects your weighting - so this is a simple way to simulate that.

[xyzzyx]

Yeah, I´ll buy a lot of Nxt and then...

Participate in NOX?

Emule might just participate in NOX.

[zorke]

Greed could be the fatal flaw, if that 50M accounts persist to hoard we are all doomed, simply because that accounts don’t need a higher price to sell, they get rich anyway, no matter what the price is.

I wish we could shot them accounts down coz they only make us look bad and people who own them are from the greediest people ever seen, they hurt nxt and will destroy it.

How rich do you want to be 1M, 10M, 50M, it’s just disgusting when you think of it.

Honestly: I couldn’t care less if NXT was worth 0, just for the fun them accounts have also 0.

Who knows, maybe a good clone will outlive NXT and them 50M accounts if they don’t start spreading the wealth.

Let's send some arbitrary messages to those accounts asking them to help out!

We already did. I think they dont even know how it works and they don't even give a damn how it works to.

Well...treat them like lostNxts (blackNxt, deadNxt or whatever they are called now).
Maybe the owner of the account already died. Or is on coma and doen´t care about it. I am pretty sure that they´d already sold some of them if they were alive

My fear is that some are second or third accounts and the whales dont even have the time to sell + there is not enough volume on the market to sell.

They can start PMing people from here who are active and faithful to NXT and offer them bulk quantities in discount prices!

If I had 100M nxt I would probably do this for at least 20-30M nxt.

And no one needs to know it (to affect the market).

Yes but you are you, and you already donated a lot I am sure just like this 1M that we are reading about today. They, I am afraid they are different story!

[mcjavar]

Yeah, I´ll buy a lot of Nxt and then...

Participate in NOX?

Emule might just participate in NOX.

MtNOX, where your money disappears.

[Jerical13]

Greed could be the fatal flaw, if that 50M accounts persist to hoard we are all doomed, simply because that accounts don’t need a higher price to sell, they get rich anyway, no matter what the price is.

I wish we could shot them accounts down coz they only make us look bad and people who own them are from the greediest people ever seen, they hurt nxt and will destroy it.

How rich do you want to be 1M, 10M, 50M, it’s just disgusting when you think of it.

Honestly: I couldn’t care less if NXT was worth 0, just for the fun them accounts have also 0.

Who knows, maybe a good clone will outlive NXT and them 50M accounts if they don’t start spreading the wealth.

Let's send some arbitrary messages to those accounts asking them to help out!

We already did. I think they dont even know how it works and they don't even give a damn how it works to.

Well...treat them like lostNxts (blackNxt, deadNxt or whatever they are called now).
Maybe the owner of the account already died. Or is on coma and doen´t care about it. I am pretty sure that they´d already sold some of them if they were alive

My fear is that some are second or third accounts and the whales dont even have the time to sell + there is not enough volume on the market to sell.

I bet this is correct. It really doesn't matter as long as they don't dump them in mass, which would really not be in their own interest. Guess we have to trust them and that is just the way it is.  Really, if you think about it the same situation exists in the Bitcoin market as well as traditional currency markets. At any rate, the asset exchange provides a means of protection against this if it is used in the right way.

[CIYAM]

@CIYAM: Is there a special reason for taking this approach

Code:

         int divisor = rand( ) % 10;

         if( divisor == 0 )
            ++divisor;

         weights[ i ] = ( rand( ) % 10000 ) * ( balances[ i ] / divisor );

instead of taking an approach equivalent to the nxt implementation?
Something like

Code:

         weights[ i ] = ( rand( ) % 10000 ) / balances[ i ];

Am pretty sure that whether you pick the "highest" or "lowest" is not relevant - so although not identical in coding it is statistically equivalent.

If you'd like to change it and try please post the results (especially if that percentages or "lucky runs" change much).

[zorke]

Just talked to bittrex, they have only 86 signups from nxt at the moment..

You should all go and sign up.

Go to https://bittrex.com/Account/Register and use SUPPORT_NXT as the invite code. This gets you past the invite code queue. Place some trades, enabled 2FA, or try any of our other features to help us stress the site before the final launch. If you find a bug, we're handing out bug bounties as well. Having a great exchange helps us but also helps the NXT community.

I've done it a week ago already, but heck I will register another account right away with my second e-mail..

[Damelon]

Just talked to bittrex, they have only 86 signups from nxt at the moment..

You should all go and sign up.

Go to https://bittrex.com/Account/Register and use SUPPORT_NXT as the invite code. This gets you past the invite code queue. Place some trades, enabled 2FA, or try any of our other features to help us stress the site before the final launch. If you find a bug, we're handing out bug bounties as well. Having a great exchange helps us but also helps the NXT community.

Done once more. 

[BloodyRookie]

Am pretty sure that whether you pick the "highest" or "lowest" is not relevant - so although not identical in coding it is statistically equivalent.

If you'd like to change it and try please post the results (especially if that percentages or "lucky runs" change much).

Right, I just calculated the probability and (at least for two accounts) it does not make a difference.

[yesuper]

** Cryptsy Update **

I just heard back from Paul (met him at the Miami Bitcoin Conference), they are looking to implement Nxt in the next few weeks.

I talked with Big Vern @Skype and I introduced CfB to him - he said he will talk to Paul about it (to get help from CfB if needed).

that's good news!

[BitcoinForumator]

Yeah, I´ll buy a lot of Nxt and then...

Participate in NOX?

Emule might just participate in NOX.

I actually like Emule and his annoyance here, because he's bringing some degree of reality-checking and some ass-kicking.

+ he's still around = he cares. I'm not sure he's trolling because he enjoys it. It's probably his way of trying to make things happen.

[Isildur23]

Androklis Polymenis (me) donates a million digital NXT coins to BPF! $43,000. Press release [PDF]: http://goo.gl/t8tWY8

https://twitter.com/Lets_Upgrade/status/438525224368107520

LOL! You are GREAT!

[CIYAM]

I made a few more tweaks to the simulator for "penalising" that I think come a little closer to how it will work in reality and now have this result:

blocks = 5256000
a: 5
b: 5
c: 5
d: 5
e: 5
f: 5
g: 5
h: 5
i: 5
j: 5
k: 50
wins( a ) = 168532
wins( b ) = 168436
wins( c ) = 168653
wins( d ) = 168924
wins( e ) = 168386
wins( f ) = 167850
wins( g ) = 167890
wins( h ) = 166853
wins( i ) = 167323
wins( j ) = 167573
wins( k ) = 3575580
best_streak( a ) = 4
best_streak( b ) = 4
best_streak( c ) = 4
best_streak( d ) = 5
best_streak( e ) = 4
best_streak( f ) = 3
best_streak( g ) = 4
best_streak( h ) = 4
best_streak( i ) = 4
best_streak( j ) = 4
best_streak( k ) = 40
best_combined_streak = 15

Which I think is perhaps looking a lot better in terms of the "combined streak" figure. The "best streak" is a bit misleading in this case so also not likely to be a problem in reality (will have to try and make further tweaks to be sure).

Code:

// Copyright (c) 2014 CIYAM Developers
//
// Distributed under the MIT/X11 software license, please refer to the file license.txt
// in the root project directory or http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.php.

#include <ctime>
#include <cmath>
#include <cstdlib>

#include <string>
#include <vector>
#include <sstream>
#include <iostream>

#define NUM_DAYS 1
#define NUM_YEARS 10

//#define USE_PENALISING

//#define PREVENT_IMMEDIATE_REPEAT

//#define SHOW_WINNERS
//#define SHOW_WINNERS_WEIGHT

using namespace std;

#ifndef NUM_YEARS
const size_t c_num_blocks = 1440 * NUM_DAYS;
#else
const size_t c_num_blocks = 1440 * 365 * NUM_YEARS;
#endif

int main( )
{
#ifdef SHOW_WINNERS
   string winners;
#endif
   vector< int > wins;
   vector< int > streaks;
   vector< int > balances;
   vector< int > best_streak;

   vector< int > combined;
   vector< long > weights;

   int combined_streak = 0;
   int best_combined_streak = 0;

   balances.push_back( 5 );
   balances.push_back( 5 );
   balances.push_back( 5 );
   balances.push_back( 5 );
   balances.push_back( 5 );
   balances.push_back( 5 );
   balances.push_back( 5 );
   balances.push_back( 5 );
   balances.push_back( 5 );
   balances.push_back( 5 );
   balances.push_back( 50 );

   srand( ( unsigned int )time( 0 ) );

   for( size_t i = 0; i < balances.size( ); i++ )
   {
      wins.push_back( 0 );
      weights.push_back( 0 );
      streaks.push_back( 0 );
      combined.push_back( 0 );
      best_streak.push_back( 0 );
   }

   size_t penalising1 = 0;
   size_t penalising2 = 0;
   size_t penalising3 = 0;
   size_t last_winner = 0;
   for( size_t blocks = 0; blocks < c_num_blocks; blocks++ )
   {
#ifdef USE_PENALISING
      if( blocks % 1440 == 0 )
      {
         penalising1 = rand( ) % balances.size( );
         penalising2 = rand( ) % balances.size( );
         penalising3 = rand( ) % balances.size( );
         penalising4 = rand( ) % balances.size( );
      }
#endif

      long total_weight = 0;
      for( size_t i = 0; i < weights.size( ); i++ )
      {
         int divisor = rand( ) % 10;

         if( divisor == 0 )
            ++divisor;

         weights[ i ] = ( rand( ) % 10000 ) * ( balances[ i ] / divisor );

#ifdef USE_PENALISING
         if( i == penalising1 || i == penalising2 || i == penalising3 || i == penalising4 )
            weights[ i ] = 0;
#endif

         total_weight += weights[ i ];
      }

      size_t winner = 0;
      size_t runner_up = 0;
      long best_target = 0;
#ifdef PREVENT_IMMEDIATE_REPEAT
      long second_best_target = 0;
#endif

      for( size_t i = 0; i < balances.size( ); i++ )
      {
         long adjusted_weight = weights[ i ] * 1000 / total_weight;

         if( adjusted_weight > best_target )
         {
            winner = i;
            best_target = adjusted_weight;
         }
#ifdef PREVENT_IMMEDIATE_REPEAT
         else if( adjusted_weight > second_best_target )
         {
            runner_up = i;
            second_best_target = adjusted_weight;
         }
#endif
      }

#ifdef PREVENT_IMMEDIATE_REPEAT
      if( winner == last_winner )
         winner = runner_up;
#endif

#ifdef SHOW_WINNERS
      winners += ( char )( 'a' + winner );
#  ifdef SHOW_WINNERS_WEIGHT
      ostringstream osstr;
      osstr << best_target;
      winners += "(" + osstr.str( ) + ")";
#  endif
#endif
      ++wins[ winner ];

      if( winner != balances.size( ) - 1 )
      {
         ++combined_streak;
         if( combined_streak > best_combined_streak )
            best_combined_streak = combined_streak;
      }
      else
         combined_streak = 0;

      if( winner == last_winner )
      {
         ++streaks[ winner ];
         if( streaks[ winner ] > best_streak[ winner ] )
            best_streak[ winner ] = streaks[ winner ];
      }
      else
         streaks[ winner ] = 0;

      last_winner = winner;
   }

   cout << "blocks = " << c_num_blocks << endl;

   for( size_t i = 0; i < balances.size( ); i++ )
      cout << ( char )( 'a' + i ) << ": " << balances[ i ] << endl;

#ifdef SHOW_WINNERS
   cout << winners << endl;
#endif
   for( size_t i = 0; i < wins.size( ); i++ )
      cout << "wins( " << ( char )( 'a' + i ) << " ) = " << wins[ i ] << endl;

   for( size_t i = 0; i < best_streak.size( ); i++ )
      cout << "best_streak( " << ( char )( 'a' + i ) << " ) = " << ( best_streak[ i ] + 1 ) << endl;

   cout << "best_combined_streak = " << best_combined_streak << endl;
}

[bitcoinpaul]

I made a few more tweaks to the simulator for "penalising" that I think come a little closer to how it will work in reality and now have this result:

What are the assumptions now compared to earlier? (In english please )

[abuelau]

I have updated the list of NXT Service Providers here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=412516.new#new

What are we missing in the list?

The list is supposed to show online services that provide some kind of programmatic functionality to NXT users.

[rickyjames]

If we need speakers, some more techy people should step forward. We have asked for them more than once, because most of us know we are limited in that, but so far none has come forward.

Ahem.   

[CIYAM]

What are the assumptions now compared to earlier? (In english please )

Okay - so before I was just randomly punishing 1 account every day - but now I am punishing 4 out of 11 (in reality the number being punished will be closer to total accounts / 1440) every day.

From what I understand the punishment will effectively apply "according" to your stake - I need to play with that more but am thinking you more or less are just going to either favour large streaks by a single large stake holder or by a pool of small stake holders.

Probably favoring the larger stake holders is better - also in reality if people are "not broadcasting blocks" then they are "losing fees" by just doing that.