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Sebastien256
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March 04, 2014, 02:25:57 PM |
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Unless the other block chains are getting downloaded and updates locally by miners on BOTH chains, that can neer happen. Just settle for minimal trust of a gateway with 100% transparency of in-out?
The plan is to have bitcoind, dogecoind, etc. all running on the gateway servers and all three (or more) that are involved in the transaction need to generate the exact same rawtransaction, down to every bit, before any withdrawals are approved. In order for this to happen, they have to all be on the same chain, which we presume to be the main chain if they are geographically separate With all account balances reconciled after every block and all the gateways and however made clients (via nodecoin-qt) will provide near realtime detection of any problems. Trust, but verified many times. I think if the gateways provide a 1:1 correspondence (publicly visible) of deposits to assets in AE (publicly visible), then we can directly trade any crypto asset against each other. With a small NXT API change to allow denominating trades in terms of a specified asset, people could directly trade AUR/BTC within NXT AE. There wont be any need to do complicated secrect publishing for each transaction. I think most people are trading more than one trade per day, if they are trading. Seems much more convenient to deposit what you want to sell, trade, withdraw what you got. Or you could just leave it in the community gateway multisig accts. I really think we are a single API change away from being able to trade any crypto to any crypto. Just need to install all the bitcoind forks on the servers. We can have each set of three servers just multisig one bitcoind fork. The cold wallet multisig trustees would only need to run the wallets for the big money crypto, probably bitcoin and maybe a few others. James Trading any crypto against any other crypto can be a total mess. Well, maybe? Im asking. In such situation, the number of assets in AE can grow to the square of the number of crypto available in AE, while it grow linearly if every crypto are only list against NXT. Would not be simple to maintain the system if only list again NXT? This will make NXT the standard. Maybe there is something I don'T understand. |
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Whoever mines the block which ends up containing your transaction will get its fee.
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wesleyh
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March 04, 2014, 02:26:03 PM |
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I can't get Offspring to work, I see no blocks, no transactions and my balance is zero!  Make sure you are not running another instance of Nxt. Only then it will download blockchain. Yeah getting lots of errors with this client.. when quitting null pointer exceptions etc. Doesn't feel stable yet. |
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jl777
Legendary
 Offline
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1104
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March 04, 2014, 02:26:38 PM |
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Unless I hear otherwise, I will assume that Mr 47...88 wants NXT to be able to trade crypto to crypto within NXT. Atomic crosschain is by definition NXT blockchain <-> BTC blockchain (or other pair). It is not NXT blockchain <-> NXT AE <-> BTC blockchain. If the first is impossible, please give the proof. In order to have the NXT core directly interface with the BTC blockchain, we would need to put some bitcoind functionality into the NXT core. That would mean finding a Java implementation or porting bitcoind, and each and every update to bitcoind. So, it is not impossible, just impractical. By the time the new bitcoind version is ported to Java, a new one is probably just around the corner. In addition to being impractical, doing a cross chain transaction for each transaction adds a lot of overhead and time, especially if somebody is actively trading. There is also no assurance that the trade will complete since it requires both parties to have fully funded account and to follow through with sending their side of the transaction. The advantage of NXT blockchain <-> NXT AE <-> BTC blockchain, is that the deposit of BTC is automated and when it is traded in AE, there is a guarantee of payment. So while technically it might not be automated cross chain, it actually solves the problem of automatically converting NXT <-> BTC. I am not the expert in the secret sharing methods for the atomic cross chain trades, so it might be possible to add to the NXTcore the required secret sharing logic that is needed for this. Then there would need to be a way for the two parties to come to agreement on price and we cannot use the AE, so that is essentially the same sort of thing, just different. After the two parties agree to a price, they would need to invoke some sort of semi-automated process where each one locally signs and broadcasts their half of the shared secret transaction. There is no assurance that both parties will fully satisfy the transaction and it could all just not happen if either of them bails out. Then assuming we have ported a subset of bitcoind into the NXTcore, it could do the rawtransaction secret sharing monitoring. It just seems to me that the NXT blockchain <-> NXT AE <-> BTC blockchain solution is much closer to what users are expecting. It also has the advantage that people will be able to trade any crypto against any other using a decentralize AE. That will be a uniquely powerful advantage for NXT. Which solution to automated crypto trading is your preference? James They say: "Be warned: This software is at an early development stage. You still need to patch it to achieve many use cases and you must have a good understanding of the Bitcoin protocol. If you lose money you have only yourself to blame!" It is not clear how compatible they are with latest bitcoind, let alone the experimental one that is being released now. I guess if we use it just for large transactions and really test that single use case, it would provide a useful dual escrow service. Still it seems like a lot of extra work to handle the large BTC trade and we certainly wont get support for any altcoins James |
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jl777
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1104
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March 04, 2014, 02:29:03 PM |
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Unless the other block chains are getting downloaded and updates locally by miners on BOTH chains, that can neer happen. Just settle for minimal trust of a gateway with 100% transparency of in-out?
The plan is to have bitcoind, dogecoind, etc. all running on the gateway servers and all three (or more) that are involved in the transaction need to generate the exact same rawtransaction, down to every bit, before any withdrawals are approved. In order for this to happen, they have to all be on the same chain, which we presume to be the main chain if they are geographically separate With all account balances reconciled after every block and all the gateways and however made clients (via nodecoin-qt) will provide near realtime detection of any problems. Trust, but verified many times. I think if the gateways provide a 1:1 correspondence (publicly visible) of deposits to assets in AE (publicly visible), then we can directly trade any crypto asset against each other. With a small NXT API change to allow denominating trades in terms of a specified asset, people could directly trade AUR/BTC within NXT AE. There wont be any need to do complicated secrect publishing for each transaction. I think most people are trading more than one trade per day, if they are trading. Seems much more convenient to deposit what you want to sell, trade, withdraw what you got. Or you could just leave it in the community gateway multisig accts. I really think we are a single API change away from being able to trade any crypto to any crypto. Just need to install all the bitcoind forks on the servers. We can have each set of three servers just multisig one bitcoind fork. The cold wallet multisig trustees would only need to run the wallets for the big money crypto, probably bitcoin and maybe a few others. James Trading any crypto against any other crypto can be a total mess. Well, maybe? Im asking. In such situation, the number of assets in AE can grow to the square of the number of crypto available in AE, while it grow linearly if every crypto are only list against NXT. Would not be simple to maintain the system if only list again NXT. This will make NXT the standard. Maybe there is something I don'T understand. We just need to change the trading API calls to be able to specify denominating the trade in terms of an assetID#, not in NXT. Then you can directly swap BTC for AUR, or prefabhomes for unicorns. Or BTC for unicorns. No need to create the combo asset, just denominate the trade in the other asset. James |
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jl777
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1104
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March 04, 2014, 02:36:35 PM |
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Which solution to automated crypto trading is your preference?
Your solution needs trust for some third party gateway. I prefer straigt solution. But if there would be no progress in straigt atomic crosschain for several months and you will release slick and sexy "NXT blockchain <-> NXT AE <-> BTC blockchain" solution i may reconsider and propose another bounty for this (with yet not determined amount of NXT). Thanks! I am doing my best to reduce the trust required for the gateways. I think if we had 100 gateway servers, all doing peer review, along with thousands of nodecoin clients, then even though ultimately the gateway transaction is 2 of 3 multisig, it really has a lot of built in decentralization and minimal trust is required. Maybe this qualifies for the extra 2 million NXT for extra features? Anyway, I am going full speed ahead with the multigateway solution. It also happens to solve the NXTcash deployment problem. Basically with 100 gateways, it creates a mini-network of its own and since it only has to do a few things, we can harden it against wide open attacks. The 100 servers would act as guardians for the three servers that do the actual gateway money handling. Only the 100 guardian servers would even be allowed to communicate with the three gateways. James |
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mcjavar
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March 04, 2014, 02:43:00 PM |
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Which solution to automated crypto trading is your preference?
Your solution needs trust for some third party gateway. I prefer straigt solution. But if there would be no progress in straigt atomic crosschain for several months and you will release slick and sexy "NXT blockchain <-> NXT AE <-> BTC blockchain" solution i may reconsider and propose another bounty for this (with yet not determined amount of NXT). Thanks! I am doing my best to reduce the trust required for the gateways. I think if we had 100 gateway servers, all doing peer review, along with thousands of nodecoin clients, then even though ultimately the gateway transaction is 2 of 3 multisig, it really has a lot of built in decentralization and minimal trust is required. Maybe this qualifies for the extra 2 million NXT for extra features? Anyway, I am going full speed ahead with the multigateway solution. It also happens to solve the NXTcash deployment problem. Basically with 100 gateways, it creates a mini-network of its own and since it only has to do a few things, we can harden it against wide open attacks. The 100 servers would act as guardians for the three servers that do the actual gateway money handling. Only the 100 guardian servers would even be allowed to communicate with the three gateways. James What about DDOS attacks? |
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apenzl
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March 04, 2014, 02:49:28 PM |
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BUMP Following the advice of John Manglaviti, I've opened a separate NXT Newsletter thread here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=500009.new#newWatch the new thread to get notifications. Or join the subscribers by adding your mail address @ http://nxter.org . Gathering the info to help people from drowning in this thread seemed a little funny, when the newsletter announcements drowns in the thread themselves.  /apenzl [EDIT] Going to move that thread from the altcoin ann forum.  I'll be back with another link….. |
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4747...888
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 19
Merit: 0
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March 04, 2014, 03:00:27 PM |
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Maybe this qualifies for the extra 2 million NXT for extra features?
Unlikely. I consider your solution more costly in ifrastructure part but more simple to code. My bounty is for code. If i ever consider bounty for your code, it will not be more that my original bounty. |
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jl777
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1104
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March 04, 2014, 03:00:49 PM |
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Which solution to automated crypto trading is your preference?
Your solution needs trust for some third party gateway. I prefer straigt solution. But if there would be no progress in straigt atomic crosschain for several months and you will release slick and sexy "NXT blockchain <-> NXT AE <-> BTC blockchain" solution i may reconsider and propose another bounty for this (with yet not determined amount of NXT). Thanks! I am doing my best to reduce the trust required for the gateways. I think if we had 100 gateway servers, all doing peer review, along with thousands of nodecoin clients, then even though ultimately the gateway transaction is 2 of 3 multisig, it really has a lot of built in decentralization and minimal trust is required. Maybe this qualifies for the extra 2 million NXT for extra features? Anyway, I am going full speed ahead with the multigateway solution. It also happens to solve the NXTcash deployment problem. Basically with 100 gateways, it creates a mini-network of its own and since it only has to do a few things, we can harden it against wide open attacks. The 100 servers would act as guardians for the three servers that do the actual gateway money handling. Only the 100 guardian servers would even be allowed to communicate with the three gateways. James What about DDOS attacks? Against 100 servers? The gateways are shielded by the 100. They will reject any TCP/IP connections that are not of the 100 guardians. Certainly, if somebody really wanted to stop gateway activity,they could flood all 100 servers. But that would cause a delay in processing, no transactions would happen. I think that would be acceptable under such a massive Ddos scenario James |
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redsn0w
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1778
Merit: 1042
#Free market
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March 04, 2014, 03:04:17 PM |
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The TestNxt was arrived ?
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jl777
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1104
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March 04, 2014, 03:07:30 PM |
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Maybe this qualifies for the extra 2 million NXT for extra features?
Unlikely. I consider your solution more costly in ifrastructure part but more simple to code. My bounty is for code. If i consider bounty for your code, it will not be more that my original bounty. I understand. I was just talking about your original offer where it was 3 to 5 million. Anyway, time is money and my multigateway solution is something that can get done a lot sooner than the alternative. If NXT quadruples in value, then the infrastructure costs are negligible. In any case we need servers for the NXT network and I am already running the NXT core on the 100+ guardian servers, so they server double duty. Triple duty if you count NXTcash. Quadruple duty if you count nodecoin interfacing. A hybrid hardware/software solution usually outperforms both the software only and hardware only solutions, maybe not in operating cost, but from an overall user experience and time to market. James |
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ChuckOne
Sr. Member
Offline
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
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March 04, 2014, 03:11:10 PM |
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Unless I hear otherwise, I will assume that Mr 47...88 wants NXT to be able to trade crypto to crypto within NXT. Atomic crosschain is by definition NXT blockchain <-> BTC blockchain (or other pair). It is not NXT blockchain <-> NXT AE <-> BTC blockchain. If the first is impossible, please give the proof. In order to have the NXT core directly interface with the BTC blockchain, we would need to put some bitcoind functionality into the NXT core. That would mean finding a Java implementation or porting bitcoind, and each and every update to bitcoind. So, it is not impossible, just impractical. By the time the new bitcoind version is ported to Java, a new one is probably just around the corner. In addition to being impractical, doing a cross chain transaction for each transaction adds a lot of overhead and time, especially if somebody is actively trading. There is also no assurance that the trade will complete since it requires both parties to have fully funded account and to follow through with sending their side of the transaction. The advantage of NXT blockchain <-> NXT AE <-> BTC blockchain, is that the deposit of BTC is automated and when it is traded in AE, there is a guarantee of payment. So while technically it might not be automated cross chain, it actually solves the problem of automatically converting NXT <-> BTC. I am not the expert in the secret sharing methods for the atomic cross chain trades, so it might be possible to add to the NXTcore the required secret sharing logic that is needed for this. Then there would need to be a way for the two parties to come to agreement on price and we cannot use the AE, so that is essentially the same sort of thing, just different. After the two parties agree to a price, they would need to invoke some sort of semi-automated process where each one locally signs and broadcasts their half of the shared secret transaction. There is no assurance that both parties will fully satisfy the transaction and it could all just not happen if either of them bails out. Then assuming we have ported a subset of bitcoind into the NXTcore, it could do the rawtransaction secret sharing monitoring. It just seems to me that the NXT blockchain <-> NXT AE <-> BTC blockchain solution is much closer to what users are expecting. It also has the advantage that people will be able to trade any crypto against any other using a decentralize AE. That will be a uniquely powerful advantage for NXT. Which solution to automated crypto trading is your preference? James Please, could we move the discussion of CCT to here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=498898.new#new ? |
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SkillRoad
Member
Offline
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
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March 04, 2014, 03:15:52 PM |
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Only only NXT _______________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________ Next Coin Lite - Fair Distribution |
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ChuckOne
Sr. Member
Offline
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
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March 04, 2014, 03:17:53 PM |
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Yes.  But don't cheat. |
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cc001
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March 04, 2014, 03:19:30 PM |
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The TestNxt was arrived ?
jep, thx |
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opticalcarrier
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March 04, 2014, 03:20:24 PM |
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Anyone wondering about POST: Yes its possible, but not required unless you configure nxt.properties to make it required for calls that use passphrase. Unlike HTTP/HTTPS, both POST and GET are simultaneously supported. curl -s -k -X POST --data "requestType=getAccountId&secretPhrase=xxx" https://HOSTNAME:7876/nxt | python -m json.tool the -s makes curl act silent, -k makes it ignore cert warnings if you are using SSL and there is a cert issue, and "| python -m json.tool" is optional for nice formatting. |
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redsn0w
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1778
Merit: 1042
#Free market
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March 04, 2014, 03:30:05 PM |
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The TestNxt was arrived ?
jep, thx I'm happy for you |
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oldnbold
Member
Offline
Activity: 64
Merit: 10
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March 04, 2014, 03:50:57 PM |
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chanc3r
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March 04, 2014, 03:56:55 PM |
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The TestNxt was arrived ?
Yes arrived safely thanks - distributing across my test nodes... testnxt-we.cloudapp.net - Western Europe testnxt-ne.cloudapp.net - Northern Europe testnxt-jp.cloudapp.net - Japan I've got these monitored and alerted so if they break I should know. All are open on 6875 and 6876 for requests. I have also created an alias of testnxt.trafficmanager.net:7876 which will access which ever of the 3 nodes it can reach, to execute an api call Thought this might be an interesting approach for production, as I understand it 7876 calls are stateless i.e. there is no session so you could be sent to a different node for each call.. If my understanding it right perhaps one of these would be useful for the live network so that light clients would always get a response rather than trying to contact a default node which has stopped. |
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