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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2761351 times)
mikesbmw
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March 06, 2014, 09:26:24 AM
 #41021

This is weird. One one hand people complain about "fees" being too high, on the other hand they want to make money by "forging" These are contradictory statements.

Well, I guess the point is that there is actually no incentive to secure the network as one is not suitably rewarded by forging. This is a critical issue.
HuhHuh
No incentive?
Isnt making sure NXT isnt destroyed incentive enough
How short sighted are people?
For a few NXT that they are not getting, they will risk NXT being attacked?

I think you look at it from a tech perspective.

I know NO ONE who has a PC/Server running when they are not using it (besides a few of my tech friends).
Of those tech friends a lot of them are not that fond of running a program that is constantly contacting the internet in the background and most of them only have a NAS and no servers/systems/VM's running.

There should be a real incentive (money talks) to be forging and "securing the network" is not enough.

NXT: Next Generation of Cryptocurrency http://nxtcrypto.org
NEM:New Economy Movement http://www.ournem.com/
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jl777
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March 06, 2014, 09:27:16 AM
 #41022

Current NXT circulation:
1. Buy NXT from initial stakeholder.
2. Register alias / send message / issue asset and pay fee to stakeholder.
3. Goto :1

As I always said, forging was created for stakeholders. You (community) always said that "when we'll have more transactions, fees would be better distributed". False! Forging is not dependent on fee in expected block. The only thing that will change is that stakeholders would get back their sold NXT faster.

Nxt is good platform. It is another P2P software like Bittorent. We need to find another way to prevent spam and get rid of NXT.

Ok.  All fees go to the genesis account.


If you send the fees to the genesis account you will destroy NXT because you will eventually run out of NXT.

With or without pooled forging, people with more NXT will get more NXT by forging.  People should view NXT as non-depreciating mining equipment.  The more NXT you own, the more NXT you will receive.  I'd rather purchase NXT than an ASIC because an ASIC will depreciate and I will earn less and less with my ASIC.  With my NXT, I will always recieve "MY NXT AMOUNT" / 1,000,000,000 NXT x 100% of the network's transaction fees.

The one worrisome thing about this Proof Of Stake concept is that it may very well turn out to be like a game of Risk. Where once a player passes a point where they have  a decisive advantage with troops, they quickly dominate the entire game, becoming more dominant with every battle until soon everyone else is slowly and methodically wiped out, or someone flips the board over, whichever comes first.

It seems like this might happen with something like NXT. The large stakeholders gaining the most out of forging, becoming more powerful with every block they win, achieving something of a compounding interest snowball type effect, until only a few big fish remain, sitting on their fat Jaba the Hut asses for the rest of NXT's existence gobbling up all the NXT while everyone else gives up forging at all; the network degrades until the Whales see the writing on the wall and push the SELL button, making NXT just another addition to the isle of coulda-shoulda-woulda.


Average fees per day is 7855 NXT
When the minimum fee is lowered to 0.1 or 0.01, it will probably go up to around 20000 NXT per day.
Thats one and a half years for 1% to be churned, more like 5 years at current rates.
This is not going to make anybody rich, it is enough to pay for server costs, but not much else.
forging fees are for spam prevention
nobody gets rich collecting spam prevention fees
please stop obsessing over the spam prevention and how it is fair or unfair about who gets the spam fees

If people spent half the effort actually building on NXT that they do complaining about whatever they dont like about it, NXT would be worth a lot more.

Isnt that what we all want? Distribution is what it is. No amount of complaining will change that. However, anybody can step up and start doing useful stuff and get rewarded. Anybody. Even a simple C programmer like me.

James

I am not a developer. I am just a guy who likes crypto and bought a few NXT and reads this thread to see how the development is coming.
I still can contribute a thought on what I think I see as a big flaw in NXT gaining widespread adoption and try to influence the developers by making suggestions. I can play musical instruments but if someone doesn't like what I'm playing I don't say "well if you spent more time learning to play you could play it yourself". That would be a copout.

As I stated, personally I would forge for free and am doing that now. My concern is about down the road when more users come along and less of them are going to be intimately involved and willing to run a program on their computer, especially one that opens them up to DDOS attacks or potentially worse for no reason. People follow the path of least resistance. I'm just one guy, but not the only one, who sees this as a potential serious flaw. The developers are busy with higher minded stuff and I think are a little bit removed from average users. That's why suggestions from nobodies like me can be helpful, or not. But to say we should be doing your job and developing your program for you is a little much.
I didnt say that people should become devs. I said TEST. ANYBODY can test.

All this complaining is getting me depressed. Maybe I shouldnt bother with any of the projects I am doing.
All people seem to do is complain about this, a release is not done, I dont get anything from forging, blah, blah blah
I am working 18hr days trying to bring significant improvements, but if this is the attitude people have and they wont be forging because it doesn pay them enough, then why am I bothering?

STOP COMPLAINING
START HELPING

Is that too much to ask?

For people that want to earn stuff from forging, there is nodecoin. That should be end of story on that issue. Not only do you help secure the network, you will get nodecoins. Unless I get so depressed from all this nonsense that I dont bother making nodecoin. Is that what you want?

James

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
barbierir
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March 06, 2014, 09:27:36 AM
 #41023

Anyone likes my idea a Electrum-like passphrase generator to be included in Nxt clients? Today there are two new stories of newbies who had their Nxt stolen because they used a weak password

https://nextcoin.org/index.php/topic,4316.0.html

Not sure about the Electrum passphrase generator. Offspring does have a passphrase generator since day one. This is the algorithm that generates that passphrase.

Code:
import org.apache.commons.lang3.RandomStringUtils;

private String generatePassphrase() {
    // No space, backslash, newline, tab
    String symbols = "!\"$%^&*()-_=+[{]};:'@#~|,<.>/?"; //$NON-NLS-1$
    String alphaNum = "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ01234567890"; //$NON-NLS-1$
    int low = 70;
    int high = 90;
    Random random = new Random();
    int count = random.nextInt(high - low) + low;
    return RandomStringUtils.random(count, symbols + alphaNum);
}

Thanks I saw that but the Electrum one is much better, it uses actual dictionary words that are much easier to write without errors and to learn by memory. An alphanumeric password is inconvenient unless it can be stored safely on the PC, without being more robust than a good passphrase. Electrum uses a dictionary of 1600 words but that could changed to the diceware dictionary with 7776 words. It only needs to be generated with a cryptographically secure method.






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ChuckOne
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March 06, 2014, 09:27:48 AM
 #41024

any date set for launch of AE yet?? or still to be decided?

Nobody seems interested to step up and launch.

I proposed the 13th march, and asked if not some one should step up and take ownership for the launch of AE.

no reactions.




At first the best date for a launch seemed to be in the beginning of April, coinciding with the release of BCNext's plan and the AT CIYAM is developing, but given the fact that Mastercoin launches it's AE very soon, I think we should move the date forward.

If we really want to, we need to test the shit out of NXT AE.

It must be the top priority for everybody here.

WE ARE testing it, what do they more want.

AFAIK there is one bug reported and J-L is working on it.

Just throw AE in the water... it will either swim or drown!

best test is production, if it breaks we can fix it.

I know. My point: the more the better.
ChuckOne
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March 06, 2014, 09:28:27 AM
 #41025

Some cool pics from Facebook https://www.facebook.com/nxtcrypto:



Guerilla marketing  Cool


The founder of Litecoin, Charles Lee, can't stop reading about Nxt!  Wink


In happier news...

YAY!

 Grin Grin Tongue Grin Grin

+1440 I like that.
w4llace
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March 06, 2014, 09:28:36 AM
 #41026

Some cool pics from Facebook https://www.facebook.com/nxtcrypto:

Guerilla marketing  Cool


Those brochures were a good idea! Wink
jl777
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March 06, 2014, 09:29:24 AM
 #41027

any date set for launch of AE yet?? or still to be decided?

Nobody seems interested to step up and launch.

I proposed the 13th march, and asked if not some one should step up and take ownership for the launch of AE.

no reactions.


How many AE tests have you run?
It is easy complaining about why isnt is ready yet, when is it going to be ready.

NXT peoples, please stop complaining. It is annoying to those of us that are working. If you want to help speed things up, then HELP!

There is a web interface that lets ANYBODY test. You can issue assets, hold trading competitions, all stuff any end user can do.

STOP COMPLAINING
START TESTING

James

whatever ! I rest my case with this. I was testing constantly!

james, I will not COMPLAIN ANYMORE.

wish you all the best and hope you finally produce something out of your pages of ideas and dreams.



You should have a comprehensive test plan for AE. There should be many people coming up with use cases. There should be a checklist of which use cases work, which ones dont.

This should be published.

James

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
verymuchso
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March 06, 2014, 09:30:07 AM
 #41028

Anyone likes my idea a Electrum-like passphrase generator to be included in Nxt clients? Today there are two new stories of newbies who had their Nxt stolen because they used a weak password

https://nextcoin.org/index.php/topic,4316.0.html

Not sure about the Electrum passphrase generator. Offspring does have a passphrase generator since day one. This is the algorithm that generates that passphrase.

Code:
import org.apache.commons.lang3.RandomStringUtils;

private String generatePassphrase() {
    // No space, backslash, newline, tab
    String symbols = "!\"$%^&*()-_=+[{]};:'@#~|,<.>/?"; //$NON-NLS-1$
    String alphaNum = "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ01234567890"; //$NON-NLS-1$
    int low = 70;
    int high = 90;
    Random random = new Random();
    int count = random.nextInt(high - low) + low;
    return RandomStringUtils.random(count, symbols + alphaNum);
}


Java.util.Random is not cryptographically secure.

Change it to SecureRandom or people using Offspring to create Nxt accounts would be vulnerable

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11051205/difference-between-java-util-random-and-java-security-securerandom

It depends on what you use the random number for, in this case it makes no difference if you would use SecureRandom or Random.
Anyways thanks for looking it up, tips are always appreciated.

mcjavar
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March 06, 2014, 09:31:44 AM
 #41029

any date set for launch of AE yet?? or still to be decided?

Nobody seems interested to step up and launch.

I proposed the 13th march, and asked if not some one should step up and take ownership for the launch of AE.

no reactions.


How many AE tests have you run?
It is easy complaining about why isnt is ready yet, when is it going to be ready.

NXT peoples, please stop complaining. It is annoying to those of us that are working. If you want to help speed things up, then HELP!

There is a web interface that lets ANYBODY test. You can issue assets, hold trading competitions, all stuff any end user can do.

STOP COMPLAINING
START TESTING

James

whatever ! I rest my case with this. I was testing constantly!

james, I will not COMPLAIN ANYMORE.

wish you all the best and hope you finally produce something out of your pages of ideas and dreams.



You should have a comprehensive test plan for AE. There should be many people coming up with use cases. There should be a checklist of which use cases work, which ones dont.

This should be published.

James

Is there an open source software with an online interface which we could use for logging testcases and bugs?
Something like JIRA?
jl777
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March 06, 2014, 09:32:26 AM
 #41030

...

the transaction fees are still too damn high, forging rewards are way to low & come too slow for all but the richest Nxters.

...

Slow? Maybe. Low? No, everyone gets the same percentage. Anyways, you can't have high forging rewards and low fees.
I estimate that average forging fees per day will triple if we lower the min. fee to 0.1 NXT

Most NXT is traded within exchanges, no fees are paid to the network for those transactions. Am I correct?

How then would a lowering of the fees triple the income for forging? Would people, all of a sudden, start sending more NXT over te network?
I have many service ideas that are currently nonviable due to 1 NXT fee. At 0.1 NXT some of them become viable, at .01 NXT most of them become viable. I am talking about automated robots doing transaction(s) every block. That is thousand(s) of transactions per day. That is just from me.

Elasticity of demand based on price.

Also, you usually pay 0.2% trading on centralized exchanges. 1 NXT would be the same at a 500 NXT transaction, less for anything bigger. At 0.1 NXT, at 50 NXT transation it is 0.2%. At 0.01 NXT 5 NXT has the same rate

James

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
instacalm
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March 06, 2014, 09:32:33 AM
 #41031

All this complaining is getting me depressed.

James, calm down. I do think most of what you see as "complaining" is actually meant to further improve NXT. I can see very little ill-founded complaining in this thread.  Your efforts are highly appreciated by everyone who cares about this project.
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March 06, 2014, 09:35:00 AM
 #41032

This is weird. One one hand people complain about "fees" being too high, on the other hand they want to make money by "forging" These are contradictory statements.

Well, I guess the point is that there is actually no incentive to secure the network as one is not suitably rewarded by forging. This is a critical issue.
HuhHuh
No incentive?
Isnt making sure NXT isnt destroyed incentive enough
How short sighted are people?
For a few NXT that they are not getting, they will risk NXT being attacked?

I think you look at it from a tech perspective.

I know NO ONE who has a PC/Server running when they are not using it (besides a few of my tech friends).
Of those tech friends a lot of them are not that fond of running a program that is constantly contacting the internet in the background and most of them only have a NAS and no servers/systems/VM's running.

There should be a real incentive (money talks) to be forging and "securing the network" is not enough.
Assuming we get pooled forging for pooling your personal account and abeleau's web wallet forges for you. People can set things up so that they are forging 24/7 with all their NXT, even though only 1 NXT is in the web wallet

If it is too much trouble for newbies to set this up, we can probably even automate the process to make it easy.

Then there is nodecoin

James

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
jl777
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March 06, 2014, 09:36:47 AM
 #41033

Is there an open source software with an online interface which we could use for logging testcases and bugs?
Something like JIRA?

Maybe somebody that is not a dev can do the research for this?

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
Eadeqa
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March 06, 2014, 09:37:55 AM
 #41034

Anyone likes my idea a Electrum-like passphrase generator to be included in Nxt clients? Today there are two new stories of newbies who had their Nxt stolen because they used a weak password

https://nextcoin.org/index.php/topic,4316.0.html

Not sure about the Electrum passphrase generator. Offspring does have a passphrase generator since day one. This is the algorithm that generates that passphrase.

Code:
import org.apache.commons.lang3.RandomStringUtils;

private String generatePassphrase() {
    // No space, backslash, newline, tab
    String symbols = "!\"$%^&*()-_=+[{]};:'@#~|,<.>/?"; //$NON-NLS-1$
    String alphaNum = "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ01234567890"; //$NON-NLS-1$
    int low = 70;
    int high = 90;
    Random random = new Random();
    int count = random.nextInt(high - low) + low;
    return RandomStringUtils.random(count, symbols + alphaNum);
}


Java.util.Random is not cryptographically secure.

Change it to SecureRandom or people using Offspring to create Nxt accounts would be vulnerable

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11051205/difference-between-java-util-random-and-java-security-securerandom


"Random only has a 48-bit internal state and will repeat after 2^48 calls to nextLong() which means that it won't produce all possible long or double values."

This means all passwords created by OffSpring should be crackable.

It's not secure at all





Nomi, Shan, Adnan, Noshi, Nxt, Adn Khn
NXT-GZYP-FMRT-FQ9K-3YQGS
https://github.com/Lafihh/encryptiontest
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March 06, 2014, 09:38:10 AM
 #41035

I didnt say that people should become devs. I said TEST. ANYBODY can test.

All this complaining is getting me depressed. Maybe I shouldnt bother with any of the projects I am doing.
All people seem to do is complain about this, a release is not done, I dont get anything from forging, blah, blah blah
I am working 18hr days trying to bring significant improvements, but if this is the attitude people have and they wont be forging because it doesn pay them enough, then why am I bothering?

STOP COMPLAINING
START HELPING

Is that too much to ask?

For people that want to earn stuff from forging, there is nodecoin. That should be end of story on that issue. Not only do you help secure the network, you will get nodecoins. Unless I get so depressed from all this nonsense that I dont bother making nodecoin. Is that what you want?

James

James, we do appreciate all your hard work.  Thank you on behalf of the Nxt community.

Everyone should remember what BCNext said, Nxt is a platform.  If you think fees are too high (which I do too) then you can't complain about forging rewards.  In other PoS currency, the coins generated per block (besides the tx fees) are inflationary.  The NXT distributed per block in NXT are only the tx fees and therefore non-inflationary.


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TRUSTEE 
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March 06, 2014, 09:39:35 AM
 #41036

Is there an open source software with an online interface which we could use for logging testcases and bugs?
Something like JIRA?

Bugzilla, Redmine
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March 06, 2014, 09:41:19 AM
 #41037

If people spent half the effort actually building on NXT that they do complaining about whatever they dont like about it, NXT would be worth a lot more.
Isnt that what we all want? Distribution is what it is. No amount of complaining will change that. However, anybody can step up and start doing useful stuff and get rewarded. Anybody. Even a simple C programmer like me.

James, critical input is of extreme importance to any project as well and not to be neglected. It is necessary for improvement.
What is the point in complaining about the past unless you have a time machine?
Initial distribution cannot be changed. End of story.
Lets move on and change what we can, the future
I agree! +11

Follow the latest blockchain news: https://twitter.com/farl
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March 06, 2014, 09:42:35 AM
 #41038

Is there an open source software with an online interface which we could use for logging testcases and bugs?
Something like JIRA?

Maybe somebody that is not a dev can do the research for this?

Google says: http://www.bugtrackingtools.net/?opensource
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March 06, 2014, 09:42:46 AM
 #41039

Have you got any comments about:  An Invitation To Universities and Academic Researchers? http://justpaste.it/nxt-invites-universities
thx
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March 06, 2014, 09:42:56 AM
 #41040

All this complaining is getting me depressed.

James, calm down. I do think most of what you see as "complaining" is actually meant to further improve NXT. I can see very little ill-founded complaining in this thread.  Your efforts are highly appreciated by everyone who cares about this project.
Then whenever people complain about forging not being enough, tell them about nodecoin
I just saw a dozen calls for AE being released but where is the testplan?
It doesnt have to be a super formal test plan, it does need to be specific test cases
It also MUST be created by people who are NOT the devs for it. Otherwise the blind spots that created the bug wont be found because said blind spot will not come up with the test case.

We should have end user test points
We should also have client app test points. There are plenty of people here that can write programs to invoke NXT API

We need to gather all the test points and put it into a test plan. Then when there is a release, we run through the test plan and if it passes, we can release. Standard software development procedure,yes?

All we need are intelligent people using and abusing the AE in a methodical and also quite insane way to push the boundaries.

When CfB said the community had to approve, this is the sort of thing he meant. I am sure he didnt mean for people to arbitrarily set a date and push for release without objective reason to allow release.

James

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
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