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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2756303 times)
Voluntold
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February 17, 2014, 03:28:36 AM
 #34501

This creates two classes of users and significantly reduces the percentage of the money supply used to secure the network.

Why? Here we see no explanation but just a statement of "fact" (or in other words "bullshit").

Additionally both of these systems suffer from the potential that a large stake holder could perform a denial of service attack by refusing to include some or all transactions.

They seem to have overlooked the "penalty" for not forging here.

So what is the "penalty" for not forging ?
weakening of NXT infrastructure.

Maybe it is best to think of forging as our civic duty. Doesnt take much effort and every now and again a surprise bonus. Kind of like being forced to buy small payout lotto tickets to support community infrastructure. Even if you dont get any $5 winners, you have done your civic duty and everybody is better off.

I propose that we take this stance on forging. It is NOT a way to make money, it is simple what being part of the NXT community means. We forge so we all have a safer community.

people should feel guilty if they are not forging. It is something that you hope nobody finds out about since it is a shameful thing to not forge for the community good. If you agree with me, please make a similar themed reply for people with "miner's mentality" complaining about small forging revenues.

I am in the process of creating a way that all the people with "miners mentality" will be able to mine to their heart's content and gaining from that. It will be built on top of NXT and be a bridge to the mining community, which to day has not really accepted NXT. After all, why should they? Well, I want to have a big giant tent and if there are thousands of technical guys out there with terahashes of computing power, NXT community should do what it can to bring them into our tent.

This will be achieved, just need a few people to help me.

James

Yeah, "miners mentality" to me is synonymous with "I want demand something for nothing mentality". I do think that incentive is a very important and effective thing though.
Actually, I have to disagree. I started mining to get a better understanding of this "miner's mentality". It is actually not that easy.There are a zillion coins that having invested thousands of dollars into GPU's or actually paying for VPS time to mine a coin means they are businessmen. Invest, work, generate revenue. That is not something for nothing at all. That is getting the most revenue from my investment.

In fact, it is EXACTLY the type of person we want to be building the products and services on top of NXT.

We need to stop this us vs them rhetoric. Just imagine if miners could make more money mining NXTcoins built on top of NXT. What would the implications of that be?

James

I didn't mean that all miners want something for nothing. But from my understading, a lot of these miners have ALREADY invested a lot of money into GPU's and such from previous mining operations like litecoin or whatevercoin, and are then just trying to switch from coin to coin once the difficulty of a certain coin gets too high to be lucrative anymore without buying more and more hardware. I just feel like a lot of them believe the point of crytocurrencies is just to be able to get rich off of running computer hardware and consuming electricity.
Nobody is making free money from mining anymore.Maybe you get lucky and get a windfall now and again, but anything that pays out really well one day is breakeven very soon.

We need to think in terms of there being this vast number of computations and the people that are managing it to maximize revenues from that asset. Wouldnt you do the same if you had the mining rigs?

Understand the other guy and what is important to him. Then maybe there is a way of finding common ground, like give the miners exactly what they want, just make it so they mine on top of NXT.

James

I wouldn't have the rigs in the first place because I saw the obvious advantages to PoS from day 1.

But no, I totally agree with you about making a 'coin' for them to mine on top of NXT. I think it's a great idea.

Nxt:  NXT-5BHG-9VRE-QGW6-DRZVQ
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Asian Prepper
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February 17, 2014, 03:46:41 AM
 #34502

Here are the last pieces of the video interview that my buddy Leon Fu and I did with Anon136 about nxt:

What Is The Difference Between The Bitcoin (BTC) Blockchain Vs. The Nextcoin (NXT) Blockchain?

http://prisonorfreedom.com/what-is-the-difference-between-the-bitcoin-btc-blockchain-vs-the-nextcoin-nxt-blockchain/

Why Were Security Flaws Purposely Put Into The Nextcoin (NXT)'s Source Code By It's Developers?
http://prisonorfreedom.com/why-were-security-flaws-purposely-put-into-the-nextcoin-nxts-source-code-by-its-developers/

Who Are The Key Players & Programmers Of The Nextcoin (NXT) Source Code?
http://prisonorfreedom.com/who-are-the-key-players-programmers-of-the-nextcoin-nxt-source-code/

Should Investors Be Worried About Nextcoin (NXT)'S Price Volatility?
http://prisonorfreedom.com/should-investors-be-worried-about-nextcoin-nxts-price-volatility/

I hope these videos with Anon136 will help to educate new adopters and investors of Nxt.

Tai Zen

As of 2014-04-09 I no longer post as "Asian Prepper" and will post under my real name "Tai Zen" to eliminate confusion.

Founder of www.PrisonOrFreedom.com | BTC: 19HHZ1yEimKUYVFM9TkXqd9xwM54jSFrmc | LTC:  LTA99422wieqR1MfWeNxZU5xAsESE9MzW7 | NXT:  17225446755425423638
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February 17, 2014, 04:12:00 AM
 #34503

Hi Nxters,

I noticed a cosmetic bug in nexern's blockchain explorer. When you search for an account that doesnt exist, it says "noting found"  Grin
Anyone know who should this be addressed this too?

http://s18.postimg.org/6108dnq49/Screenshot_from_2014_02_17_09_34_25.png
jl777
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February 17, 2014, 04:53:56 AM
 #34504

URGENT: I need to hire some programmers.

I need someone with serverside coding experience

I also need someone with client side coding experience

I also need a Java programmer

I need someone who can deal with generating multisig bitcoin transactions

Preferably somebody that can do more than one of the above things, so from 1 to 4 people. Even if you can only take 2 weeks off from work, we can get a lot done if you can work fulltime. If you need to receive salary for the programming time, I can pay in NXT, just PM me your skills and requirements.

I want to fully implement an automated multisig gateway federation and NXTcoins development kit. I have the bandwidth to manage a half dozen more projects, but I want to concentrate on these two as they are the MOST influential on NXT value and have a large return for investment pretty much guaranteed.

James

P.S. I hope nobody minds if I use the 100000 NXT bounty for automated DAC gateways to fund salary for the automated multisig gateway and part of the 500000 NXTlayers bounty for the NXTcoins dev kit as those are pretty closely related to original bounty description.

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
brooklynbtc
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February 17, 2014, 04:59:26 AM
 #34505

Hi Nxters,

I noticed a cosmetic bug in nexern's blockchain explorer. When you search for an account that doesnt exist, it says "noting found"  Grin
Anyone know who should this be addressed this too?



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Blockchain Technology.

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February 17, 2014, 05:00:14 AM
 #34506

So far Mises_77 has the best idea for service or product on top of NXT. A nodecoin that rewards people for forging in a new altcoin. This way, even if you dont forge a node, at least you get a nodecoin. Eventually a market in this coin will develop and people will trade them for fun. I think it should be on a per machine basis, so it wont matter how big your acct is, you still can get some nodecoin every minute. Probably need to fractionalize the reward, or limit to the ones that were closest to forging. Anyway, excellent idea regardless of how the details shake out.

I will be using nodecoin as an example of a NXTcoin that are built on top of NXT. Rickyjames is authorized to make 500NXT payment to Mises_77

I will keep the contest open for several more hours, so keep the ideas coming. It has to be better than nodecoin, but you can do it!

James

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
100+ page annual report for SuperNET
Komputor
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February 17, 2014, 05:01:50 AM
 #34507

Hi Nxters,

I noticed a cosmetic bug in nexern's blockchain explorer. When you search for an account that doesnt exist, it says "noting found"  Grin
Anyone know who should this be addressed this too?

http://s18.postimg.org/6108dnq49/Screenshot_from_2014_02_17_09_34_25.png

Oh man..somehow that never occurred to me. Sent him a pm.
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February 17, 2014, 05:14:23 AM
 #34508

but isnt part of bcexts plan to lower fees and stop greedy hoard and forge? makin it not worth while?


His idea. We don't have to follow it.
I am following BCNext's plan! He is clearly much smarter than me, who am I to second guess his recommendations.
In any case it makes a lot of sense to me that NXT itself should be as close to free to use as possible. Think how much it costs to use the Internet, or normal cash. If using the internet had a per minute fee (like Compuserve did), it would never have become what it is. Most people dont seem to under stand this. Elasticity of price demand, eg. lower cost -> more volumes.

I suggest that everybody just IGNORE any amount that comes in from forging. If it comes in, great, if not, dont worry. NXT is about building an economy. What sort of economy would it be if everybody just sat around waiting and staring at their money waiting for it to magically and spontaneously spit out more money?? The fact that NXT actually does this every once in a while is fantastic, but it is NOT the reason to own NXT. [answer to my rhetorical question is "massive economic depression"]

The reason to own NXT is to be able to build a livelihood around it. Create a product like Anon's silver bars, create a service like many people have already done. You have to do something to get something. Its not really that strange that it works this way is it?

Unless you have 100 BTC and can buy 1 million NXT, you gotta work. Even if you have 1 million NXT, it would be much better if you invested in the best ideas and allow others to make a living.

I am in the process of coming up with ways normal people can make a living by building stuff on top of NXT, but the more people that contribute such ideas the better. I cant be the only one who has ideas on how to make money with NXT.

Let's play a game. post a way you can think of that somebody can make money with NXT, using the tech that is currently being developed. The best idea as measured by (estimated revenues divided by estimated costs to implement) will win 500 NXT bounty. If there is no consensus as to what idea has the best revenue/cost ratio, i will flip a coin and pick the one I like the best.

Deadline is before I sign off tonight, probably 6 to 8 hrs

James

I would like to submit Trustless Crowdfunding through Smart Contracts. (The hitch I mentioned in that post can be solved. This lets people who see business opportunities directly seek small investments from lots of people, including regular folks. Contrast this to current models like the stock market, which is so many layers of middlemen and indirection and legal beauracracy. Even Kickstarter has problems, it's recently been hacked, and the US govt may be placing exhorbitant taxes on funds gathered.

(This was based off a convo with Anon, and he suggested another approach for crowdfunding. So maybe split the pot with him for this?)

Going further, people could design such smart contracts for a fee, or even automate the process. (Think of the website which allowed you to design your own BTC/LTC clone by selecting options and paying a small fee). This lets other people experiment with different crowdfunding options.


EDIT: I'm pretty sure there are *lots* of ways to build businesses and services on top of Nxt. Can I make multiple submissions? Also, I think Ian (Ciyam) would be interested in these ideas too over at the Nxt Scripts (or what I call the Xtnd language) thread. He's looking for more use cases for Xtnd.

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February 17, 2014, 05:30:34 AM
Last edit: February 17, 2014, 05:54:46 AM by Zahlen
 #34509


Why? Here we see no explanation but just a statement of "fact" (or in other words "bullshit").

They seem to have overlooked the "penalty" for not forging here.

So what is the "penalty" for not forging ?
weakening of NXT infrastructure.

Maybe it is best to think of forging as our civic duty. Doesnt take much effort and every now and again a surprise bonus. Kind of like being forced to buy small payout lotto tickets to support community infrastructure. Even if you dont get any $5 winners, you have done your civic duty and everybody is better off.

I propose that we take this stance on forging. It is NOT a way to make money, it is simple what being part of the NXT community means. We forge so we all have a safer community.

people should feel guilty if they are not forging. It is something that you hope nobody finds out about since it is a shameful thing to not forge for the community good. If you agree with me, please make a similar themed reply for people with "miner's mentality" complaining about small forging revenues.

Leased forging would solve all that.

Personally, I don't feel guilty for not forging. I own ~12k Nxt. I'm a poor shibe, could only afford to buy into 4.3k of it (at~250USD), the rest I received through helping out around here (thanks again everyone!). And if all I can afford is that amount, I definitely can't afford to run a public node, protect it against DDoS, upload lots of data, keep everything running, etc, regardless of any social expectation/ostracism. I'd be perfectly happy to lease my forging power though (but not actually send the nxt). Let someone who runs a service using Nxt and who can afford to do all the above forge in my stead. Personally, I'm happy to subsidize them a little by letting them keep my (likely small) forging gains. Or maybe, as Nxt develops, it'll be the other way round, they'll want to compete for my Nxt forging power and offer me incentives for doing so.

Cool with me either way Cool

EDIT: The "penalty" Ian was referring to is something like 0 forging power for a period of time. Not a penalty if you don't plan on forging anyways due to it being impractical, but a penalty (lost opportunity) if it is through leased forging.

Also, from my own guesses about TF's advanced consensus, a consequent lost opportunity penalty (for Nxt based services that could run a server) is loss of control of the network. As a forger, you can choose which txs to include in the network blocks you forge (and maybe even which scripts to run). You could blacklist people you don't like and reject txs from them (that could be drug dealers, or patent trolls, or whatever), give priority to txes from people you do like (say friends and family, charities, buisness partners, even at the cost of losing out on higher tx fees). And of course other people could check on your forging behaviour too, and decide whether or not to leave you with control (they can personally set your forging power to 0 by blacklisting you and sending their tx to the next candidate forger, which is predetermined. Enough people don't like that and do this, and there's a new consensus.)

Basically I think advanced consensus will just stem from economic and social behaviour, of everyone looking out for themselves as well as things they like and don't like.

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February 17, 2014, 05:37:27 AM
 #34510


Why? Here we see no explanation but just a statement of "fact" (or in other words "bullshit").

They seem to have overlooked the "penalty" for not forging here.

So what is the "penalty" for not forging ?
weakening of NXT infrastructure.

Maybe it is best to think of forging as our civic duty. Doesnt take much effort and every now and again a surprise bonus. Kind of like being forced to buy small payout lotto tickets to support community infrastructure. Even if you dont get any $5 winners, you have done your civic duty and everybody is better off.

I propose that we take this stance on forging. It is NOT a way to make money, it is simple what being part of the NXT community means. We forge so we all have a safer community.

people should feel guilty if they are not forging. It is something that you hope nobody finds out about since it is a shameful thing to not forge for the community good. If you agree with me, please make a similar themed reply for people with "miner's mentality" complaining about small forging revenues.

Leased forging would solve all that.

Personally, I don't feel guilty for not forging. I own ~12k Nxt. I'm a poor shibe, could only afford to buy into 4.3k of it (at~250USD), the rest I received through helping out around here (thanks again everyone!). And if all I can afford is that amount, I definitely can't afford to run a public node, protect it against DDoS, upload lots of data, keep everything running, etc. I'd be perfectly happy to lease my forging power though (but not actually send the nxt). Let someone who runs a service using Nxt and who can afford to do all the above forge in my stead. Personally, I'm happy to subsidize them a little by letting them keep my (likely small) forging gains. Or maybe, as Nxt develops, it'll be the other way round, they'll want to compete for my Nxt forging power and offer me incentives for doing so.

Cool with me either way Cool
You dont have to run a public node, even a private node helps the network. Also, submit as many ideas as you have, this is a brainstorming contest

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February 17, 2014, 05:51:08 AM
 #34511

You dont have to run a public node, even a private node helps the network. Also, submit as many ideas as you have, this is a brainstorming contest

But even keeping a private node online costs significantly for some folks. (Guess I should do this though!)

Cool, will think of more, especially for the Xtnd thread since we'll need to know what the scripting language needs to be able to do.

Check out the EDIT to my earlier post, they may clarify other aspects of forging incentives, especially with regards to advanced consensus.

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February 17, 2014, 06:03:31 AM
 #34512

Hey eb,

got a MASSIVE stacktrace with out of memory an hour ago - raspi
...
Memory: 4k page, physical 448180k(29320k free), swap 102396k(3032k free)
...


Holy sh*t, you must start java with Xmx option.

swap 102396k(3032k free) that means your raspi was swapping 100MB on its sdcard, that will not work and your sdcard will die very fast.

Use:
java -Xmx150m -jar start.jar

And tell me how it goes. This way it will never oom on any raspi version.

Greets,
eb


Hi eb,

below is the java line from my start script.  used to run -Xmx756 while I assumed to have 1GB, now it is  running on this:

$java >> $nxtlog -- -Xms128m -Xmx456m -jar $nxt STOP.PORT=7873 STOP.KEY=0815 2>&1 >> $nxtlog & then


Are you recommending other params? I was under the impression that Xms128m is minimum java heap, and Xmx456m is maximum java heap ...









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February 17, 2014, 06:03:58 AM
 #34513

Hi guys, new NXT website announced, https://NxtOk.com

thread here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470463.new#new
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February 17, 2014, 06:04:25 AM
 #34514

Nxt service proposal: Alias management services.

Aliases have lots of lots uses: they could replace domain names, e-mail addresses, phone numbers. And don't think of them as just short replacements of long strings. They can also act as a more convenient form of data storage (or rather, pointers to stored data) than AMs, e.g. as timestamps for creative works , and as magnet links to torrents of such works.

As alias use grows, we'll need ways of managing their use. Some, the community will come to a consensus about and just adopt naturally. Service providers could also offer some, e.g. auction houses for people to put up their squatted aliases, search engines that try to determine what type of data the URI contains and present that in a manageable way for users, software that lets authors of digital works easily manage the timestamping and archival for their works.

EDIT: These auction houses could be run via smart contracts! There'll be smart contract coders and auditors for hire, bounties will be placed for bugs and exploits.

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February 17, 2014, 06:13:48 AM
 #34515

Nxt service proposal: Alias management services.

Aliases have lots of lots uses: they could replace domain names, e-mail addresses, phone numbers. And don't think of them as just short replacements of long strings. They can also act as a more convenient form of data storage (or rather, pointers to stored data) than AMs, e.g. as timestamps for creative works , and as magnet links to torrents of such works.

As alias use grows, we'll need ways of managing their use. Some, the community will come to a consensus about and just adopt naturally. Service providers could also offer some, e.g. auction houses for people to put up their squatted aliases, search engines that try to determine what type of data the URI contains and present that in a manageable way for users, software that lets authors of digital works easily manage the timestamping and archival for their works.

EDIT: These auction houses could be run via smart contracts! There'll be smart contract coders and auditors for hire, bounties will be placed for bugs and exploits.
I like the idea of Alias management services. For now, lets assume we dont have NXT VM scripting especially since I have no idea what can and cant be done with them. Just using the other parts of NXT allows for a nice website full of useful functions.

If this is combined with buybitcoinscanada's idea of a torrent service, it would provide point and click access to all the data within NXT blockchain (after it is populated with a brute force search and download of all the existing torrent sites)

This is the leading idea, unless someone else can come up with a better one soon. Somehow getting tired so early today.

James

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
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February 17, 2014, 06:29:57 AM
 #34516

[...]

Leased forging would solve all that.

Personally, I don't feel guilty for not forging. I own ~12k Nxt. I'm a poor shibe, could only afford to buy into 4.3k of it (at~250USD), the rest I received through helping out around here (thanks again everyone!). And if all I can afford is that amount, I definitely can't afford to run a public node, protect it against DDoS, upload lots of data, keep everything running, etc, regardless of any social expectation/ostracism. I'd be perfectly happy to lease my forging power though (but not actually send the nxt). Let someone who runs a service using Nxt and who can afford to do all the above forge in my stead. Personally, I'm happy to subsidize them a little by letting them keep my (likely small) forging gains. Or maybe, as Nxt develops, it'll be the other way round, they'll want to compete for my Nxt forging power and offer me incentives for doing so.

[...]

I do not think that Leased Forging is a good idea. We do not need pools to achieve fair fee distribution. Have a look at Shared Forging instead.
This approach uses less resources and no pools need to be controlled. I think it is a much sleeker way to solve the problem.
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February 17, 2014, 06:40:18 AM
 #34517

And on the other hand, this is making me more and more awake. Like, everytime I keep coming back to this thread there are more and more great things to think about.

Another idea: Asset tokens as a means of managing logistics.

Currently we're thinking of the AE as allowing "hubs" like Anon's stilver buillion gateway to issue proof of purchases (asset tokens) to "buyers", who may then do limited trading between themselves or back to hubs. But that's such a limited model, think of it as potential network instead. E.g.

Amazon moves lots of stuff all around the world. Broadly I think the way they manage things is from big warehouses -> local distribution centers -> buyers. That's very much a hub model. They care a lot about keeping stuff moving so that they (as much as possible) always have what people want in stock, and nearby, but at the same time not too much of it (JIT). They keep their own internal, private ledgers of all this stuff moving around.

Now imagine we can have many other Amazons (though not necessarily of the same size). Instead of keeping just their own operations and private ledgers, they use asset tokens to represent what they have in stock and where so it's visible to consumers and other suppliers. This allows them to buy from other suppliers if they meet with shortfalls and high consumer demand. There could even be independent drivers and bulk movers who could trade between suppliers (think Elite, Privateer, Freelancer, Patrician, in real life!)


EDIT: This works only for fungible assets.

James, you should just go to bed and wake up to a cornucopia of proposals from everyone Wink

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February 17, 2014, 06:46:49 AM
 #34518

I do not think that Leased Forging is a good idea. We do not need pools to achieve fair fee distribution. Have a look at Shared Forging instead.
This approach uses less resources and no pools need to be controlled. I think it is a much sleeker way to solve the problem.

Thanks for the link. But that only reduces the variance, it doesn't increase the expected gains from forging. Pools "work" (well, used to work) for Bitcoin and friends because expected gains (used to be) > costs even for small-timers, but the variance was extremely high. Nxt has low expected gains from forging. Poor shibes like me will likely have have expected gains of < 0 (after electricity and hardware costs), the only profitable ones may be ones that can do it in scale and have market advantages in the different parts of the cost equation, to keep costs down.

I share the concerns of centralization, but seems to me the way to deal with that is for leasers to be able to have some kind of influence on the forger's behavour (i.e. what txes they reject, scripts they don't run and how they blacklist/weigh other forgers). Maybe moving leasing power to someone else is sufficient, or maybe there needs to be some way for leaser's to inflict a penalty (but maybe with their own reputations on the line).

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February 17, 2014, 06:53:02 AM
 #34519


address :8026612693734218048

need testnet coin..

Nxt:17482068461146780755
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February 17, 2014, 07:07:05 AM
 #34520

Let's play a game. post a way you can think of that somebody can make money with NXT, using the tech that is currently being developed. The best idea as measured by (estimated revenues divided by estimated costs to implement) will win 500 NXT bounty. If there is no consensus as to what idea has the best revenue/cost ratio, i will flip a coin and pick the one I like the best.

1) Asset kickstarter
- you want to develop a game, you create 1.000.000 asset tokens for share for your game. Your goal is to get $1.000.000, so you sell 1 share for 1$ (=20 Nxt). After the game is completed, you will be able to buy shares back for: downloading a game, purchasing gaming items (better horse, nicer equipment, pet), for materials (book, map, soundtrack) special events, in-game character names... And if anyone wanted to hoard his shares, he would be getting some part of the profit from selling the game

Nxt tips: NXT-R67P-6BZ2-XWAK-8RHZR | Nxt forum | Nxt Academy | Donate for Nxt at the Universities // BTCD: RVMLrnxYYy7uy8YZo9FcGfXbk1ZMnNifdg
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