NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[Zahlen]

but isnt part of bcexts plan to lower fees and stop greedy hoard and forge? makin it not worth while?

His idea. We don't have to follow it.

I am following BCNext's plan! He is clearly much smarter than me, who am I to second guess his recommendations.
In any case it makes a lot of sense to me that NXT itself should be as close to free to use as possible. Think how much it costs to use the Internet, or normal cash. If using the internet had a per minute fee (like Compuserve did), it would never have become what it is. Most people dont seem to under stand this. Elasticity of price demand, eg. lower cost -> more volumes.

I suggest that everybody just IGNORE any amount that comes in from forging. If it comes in, great, if not, dont worry. NXT is about building an economy. What sort of economy would it be if everybody just sat around waiting and staring at their money waiting for it to magically and spontaneously spit out more money?? The fact that NXT actually does this every once in a while is fantastic, but it is NOT the reason to own NXT. [answer to my rhetorical question is "massive economic depression"]

The reason to own NXT is to be able to build a livelihood around it. Create a product like Anon's silver bars, create a service like many people have already done. You have to do something to get something. Its not really that strange that it works this way is it?

Unless you have 100 BTC and can buy 1 million NXT, you gotta work. Even if you have 1 million NXT, it would be much better if you invested in the best ideas and allow others to make a living.

I am in the process of coming up with ways normal people can make a living by building stuff on top of NXT, but the more people that contribute such ideas the better. I cant be the only one who has ideas on how to make money with NXT.

Let's play a game. post a way you can think of that somebody can make money with NXT, using the tech that is currently being developed. The best idea as measured by (estimated revenues divided by estimated costs to implement) will win 500 NXT bounty. If there is no consensus as to what idea has the best revenue/cost ratio, i will flip a coin and pick the one I like the best.

Deadline is before I sign off tonight, probably 6 to 8 hrs

James

I would like to submit Trustless Crowdfunding through Smart Contracts. (The hitch I mentioned in that post can be solved. This lets people who see business opportunities directly seek small investments from lots of people, including regular folks. Contrast this to current models like the stock market, which is so many layers of middlemen and indirection and legal beauracracy. Even Kickstarter has problems, it's recently been hacked, and the US govt may be placing exhorbitant taxes on funds gathered.

(This was based off a convo with Anon, and he suggested another approach for crowdfunding. So maybe split the pot with him for this?)

Going further, people could design such smart contracts for a fee, or even automate the process. (Think of the website which allowed you to design your own BTC/LTC clone by selecting options and paying a small fee). This lets other people experiment with different crowdfunding options.


EDIT: I'm pretty sure there are *lots* of ways to build businesses and services on top of Nxt. Can I make multiple submissions? Also, I think Ian (Ciyam) would be interested in these ideas too over at the Nxt Scripts (or what I call the Xtnd language) thread. He's looking for more use cases for Xtnd.

[Zahlen]

Why? Here we see no explanation but just a statement of "fact" (or in other words "bullshit").

They seem to have overlooked the "penalty" for not forging here.

So what is the "penalty" for not forging ?

weakening of NXT infrastructure.

Maybe it is best to think of forging as our civic duty. Doesnt take much effort and every now and again a surprise bonus. Kind of like being forced to buy small payout lotto tickets to support community infrastructure. Even if you dont get any $5 winners, you have done your civic duty and everybody is better off.

I propose that we take this stance on forging. It is NOT a way to make money, it is simple what being part of the NXT community means. We forge so we all have a safer community.

people should feel guilty if they are not forging. It is something that you hope nobody finds out about since it is a shameful thing to not forge for the community good. If you agree with me, please make a similar themed reply for people with "miner's mentality" complaining about small forging revenues.

Leased forging would solve all that.

Personally, I don't feel guilty for not forging. I own ~12k Nxt. I'm a poor shibe, could only afford to buy into 4.3k of it (at~250USD), the rest I received through helping out around here (thanks again everyone!). And if all I can afford is that amount, I definitely can't afford to run a public node, protect it against DDoS, upload lots of data, keep everything running, etc, regardless of any social expectation/ostracism. I'd be perfectly happy to lease my forging power though (but not actually send the nxt). Let someone who runs a service using Nxt and who can afford to do all the above forge in my stead. Personally, I'm happy to subsidize them a little by letting them keep my (likely small) forging gains. Or maybe, as Nxt develops, it'll be the other way round, they'll want to compete for my Nxt forging power and offer me incentives for doing so.

Cool with me either way

EDIT: The "penalty" Ian was referring to is something like 0 forging power for a period of time. Not a penalty if you don't plan on forging anyways due to it being impractical, but a penalty (lost opportunity) if it is through leased forging.

Also, from my own guesses about TF's advanced consensus, a consequent lost opportunity penalty (for Nxt based services that could run a server) is loss of control of the network. As a forger, you can choose which txs to include in the network blocks you forge (and maybe even which scripts to run). You could blacklist people you don't like and reject txs from them (that could be drug dealers, or patent trolls, or whatever), give priority to txes from people you do like (say friends and family, charities, buisness partners, even at the cost of losing out on higher tx fees). And of course other people could check on your forging behaviour too, and decide whether or not to leave you with control (they can personally set your forging power to 0 by blacklisting you and sending their tx to the next candidate forger, which is predetermined. Enough people don't like that and do this, and there's a new consensus.)

Basically I think advanced consensus will just stem from economic and social behaviour, of everyone looking out for themselves as well as things they like and don't like.

[jl777]

Why? Here we see no explanation but just a statement of "fact" (or in other words "bullshit").

They seem to have overlooked the "penalty" for not forging here.

So what is the "penalty" for not forging ?

weakening of NXT infrastructure.

Maybe it is best to think of forging as our civic duty. Doesnt take much effort and every now and again a surprise bonus. Kind of like being forced to buy small payout lotto tickets to support community infrastructure. Even if you dont get any $5 winners, you have done your civic duty and everybody is better off.

I propose that we take this stance on forging. It is NOT a way to make money, it is simple what being part of the NXT community means. We forge so we all have a safer community.

people should feel guilty if they are not forging. It is something that you hope nobody finds out about since it is a shameful thing to not forge for the community good. If you agree with me, please make a similar themed reply for people with "miner's mentality" complaining about small forging revenues.

Leased forging would solve all that.

Personally, I don't feel guilty for not forging. I own ~12k Nxt. I'm a poor shibe, could only afford to buy into 4.3k of it (at~250USD), the rest I received through helping out around here (thanks again everyone!). And if all I can afford is that amount, I definitely can't afford to run a public node, protect it against DDoS, upload lots of data, keep everything running, etc. I'd be perfectly happy to lease my forging power though (but not actually send the nxt). Let someone who runs a service using Nxt and who can afford to do all the above forge in my stead. Personally, I'm happy to subsidize them a little by letting them keep my (likely small) forging gains. Or maybe, as Nxt develops, it'll be the other way round, they'll want to compete for my Nxt forging power and offer me incentives for doing so.

Cool with me either way

You dont have to run a public node, even a private node helps the network. Also, submit as many ideas as you have, this is a brainstorming contest

[Zahlen]

You dont have to run a public node, even a private node helps the network. Also, submit as many ideas as you have, this is a brainstorming contest

But even keeping a private node online costs significantly for some folks. (Guess I should do this though!)

Cool, will think of more, especially for the Xtnd thread since we'll need to know what the scripting language needs to be able to do.

Check out the EDIT to my earlier post, they may clarify other aspects of forging incentives, especially with regards to advanced consensus.

[l8orre]

Hey eb,

got a MASSIVE stacktrace with out of memory an hour ago - raspi
...
Memory: 4k page, physical 448180k(29320k free), swap 102396k(3032k free)
...

Holy sh*t, you must start java with Xmx option.

swap 102396k(3032k free) that means your raspi was swapping 100MB on its sdcard, that will not work and your sdcard will die very fast.

Use:
java -Xmx150m -jar start.jar

And tell me how it goes. This way it will never oom on any raspi version.

Greets,
eb

Hi eb,

below is the java line from my start script.  used to run -Xmx756 while I assumed to have 1GB, now it is  running on this:

$java >> $nxtlog -- -Xms128m -Xmx456m -jar $nxt STOP.PORT=7873 STOP.KEY=0815 2>&1 >> $nxtlog & then


Are you recommending other params? I was under the impression that Xms128m is minimum java heap, and Xmx456m is maximum java heap ...

[MIG.fish]

Hi guys, new NXT website announced, https://NxtOk.com

thread here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470463.new#new

[Zahlen]

Nxt service proposal: Alias management services.

Aliases have lots of lots uses: they could replace domain names, e-mail addresses, phone numbers. And don't think of them as just short replacements of long strings. They can also act as a more convenient form of data storage (or rather, pointers to stored data) than AMs, e.g. as timestamps for creative works , and as magnet links to torrents of such works.

As alias use grows, we'll need ways of managing their use. Some, the community will come to a consensus about and just adopt naturally. Service providers could also offer some, e.g. auction houses for people to put up their squatted aliases, search engines that try to determine what type of data the URI contains and present that in a manageable way for users, software that lets authors of digital works easily manage the timestamping and archival for their works.

EDIT: These auction houses could be run via smart contracts! There'll be smart contract coders and auditors for hire, bounties will be placed for bugs and exploits.

[jl777]

Nxt service proposal: Alias management services.

Aliases have lots of lots uses: they could replace domain names, e-mail addresses, phone numbers. And don't think of them as just short replacements of long strings. They can also act as a more convenient form of data storage (or rather, pointers to stored data) than AMs, e.g. as timestamps for creative works , and as magnet links to torrents of such works.

As alias use grows, we'll need ways of managing their use. Some, the community will come to a consensus about and just adopt naturally. Service providers could also offer some, e.g. auction houses for people to put up their squatted aliases, search engines that try to determine what type of data the URI contains and present that in a manageable way for users, software that lets authors of digital works easily manage the timestamping and archival for their works.

EDIT: These auction houses could be run via smart contracts! There'll be smart contract coders and auditors for hire, bounties will be placed for bugs and exploits.

I like the idea of Alias management services. For now, lets assume we dont have NXT VM scripting especially since I have no idea what can and cant be done with them. Just using the other parts of NXT allows for a nice website full of useful functions.

If this is combined with buybitcoinscanada's idea of a torrent service, it would provide point and click access to all the data within NXT blockchain (after it is populated with a brute force search and download of all the existing torrent sites)

This is the leading idea, unless someone else can come up with a better one soon. Somehow getting tired so early today.

James

[MarvellousMutant]

[...]

Leased forging would solve all that.

Personally, I don't feel guilty for not forging. I own ~12k Nxt. I'm a poor shibe, could only afford to buy into 4.3k of it (at~250USD), the rest I received through helping out around here (thanks again everyone!). And if all I can afford is that amount, I definitely can't afford to run a public node, protect it against DDoS, upload lots of data, keep everything running, etc, regardless of any social expectation/ostracism. I'd be perfectly happy to lease my forging power though (but not actually send the nxt). Let someone who runs a service using Nxt and who can afford to do all the above forge in my stead. Personally, I'm happy to subsidize them a little by letting them keep my (likely small) forging gains. Or maybe, as Nxt develops, it'll be the other way round, they'll want to compete for my Nxt forging power and offer me incentives for doing so.

[...]

I do not think that Leased Forging is a good idea. We do not need pools to achieve fair fee distribution. Have a look at Shared Forging instead.
This approach uses less resources and no pools need to be controlled. I think it is a much sleeker way to solve the problem.

[Zahlen]

And on the other hand, this is making me more and more awake. Like, everytime I keep coming back to this thread there are more and more great things to think about.

Another idea: Asset tokens as a means of managing logistics.

Currently we're thinking of the AE as allowing "hubs" like Anon's stilver buillion gateway to issue proof of purchases (asset tokens) to "buyers", who may then do limited trading between themselves or back to hubs. But that's such a limited model, think of it as potential network instead. E.g.

Amazon moves lots of stuff all around the world. Broadly I think the way they manage things is from big warehouses -> local distribution centers -> buyers. That's very much a hub model. They care a lot about keeping stuff moving so that they (as much as possible) always have what people want in stock, and nearby, but at the same time not too much of it (JIT). They keep their own internal, private ledgers of all this stuff moving around.

Now imagine we can have many other Amazons (though not necessarily of the same size). Instead of keeping just their own operations and private ledgers, they use asset tokens to represent what they have in stock and where so it's visible to consumers and other suppliers. This allows them to buy from other suppliers if they meet with shortfalls and high consumer demand. There could even be independent drivers and bulk movers who could trade between suppliers (think Elite, Privateer, Freelancer, Patrician, in real life!)


EDIT: This works only for fungible assets.

James, you should just go to bed and wake up to a cornucopia of proposals from everyone

[Zahlen]

I do not think that Leased Forging is a good idea. We do not need pools to achieve fair fee distribution. Have a look at Shared Forging instead.
This approach uses less resources and no pools need to be controlled. I think it is a much sleeker way to solve the problem.

Thanks for the link. But that only reduces the variance, it doesn't increase the expected gains from forging. Pools "work" (well, used to work) for Bitcoin and friends because expected gains (used to be) > costs even for small-timers, but the variance was extremely high. Nxt has low expected gains from forging. Poor shibes like me will likely have have expected gains of < 0 (after electricity and hardware costs), the only profitable ones may be ones that can do it in scale and have market advantages in the different parts of the cost equation, to keep costs down.

I share the concerns of centralization, but seems to me the way to deal with that is for leasers to be able to have some kind of influence on the forger's behavour (i.e. what txes they reject, scripts they don't run and how they blacklist/weigh other forgers). Maybe moving leasing power to someone else is sufficient, or maybe there needs to be some way for leaser's to inflict a penalty (but maybe with their own reputations on the line).

[coolfish]

address :8026612693734218048

need testnet coin..

[salsacz]

Let's play a game. post a way you can think of that somebody can make money with NXT, using the tech that is currently being developed. The best idea as measured by (estimated revenues divided by estimated costs to implement) will win 500 NXT bounty. If there is no consensus as to what idea has the best revenue/cost ratio, i will flip a coin and pick the one I like the best.

1) Asset kickstarter
- you want to develop a game, you create 1.000.000 asset tokens for share for your game. Your goal is to get $1.000.000, so you sell 1 share for 1$ (=20 Nxt). After the game is completed, you will be able to buy shares back for: downloading a game, purchasing gaming items (better horse, nicer equipment, pet), for materials (book, map, soundtrack) special events, in-game character names... And if anyone wanted to hoard his shares, he would be getting some part of the profit from selling the game

[salsacz]

Let's play a game. post a way you can think of that somebody can make money with NXT, using the tech that is currently being developed. The best idea as measured by (estimated revenues divided by estimated costs to implement) will win 500 NXT bounty. If there is no consensus as to what idea has the best revenue/cost ratio, i will flip a coin and pick the one I like the best.

1) Asset kickstarter
- you want to develop a game, you create 1.000.000 asset tokens for share for your game. Your goal is to get $1.000.000, so you sell 1 share for 1$ (=20 Nxt). After the game is completed, you will be able to buy shares back for: downloading a game, purchasing gaming items (better horse, nicer equipment, pet), for materials (book, map, soundtrack) special events, in-game character names... And if anyone wanted to hoard his shares, he would be getting some part of the profit from selling the game

2) known inventions:
Proof of learning coins:
- you are getting coins for watching videos, responding to questionaires, for creating new content so you are getting coins fo number of downloads/views of your pictures (memes), videos (funny), texts (even scientific books), created sites and advertising on them (lakshmi's proof of bandwidth)

[salsacz]

3) Proof of stake coins for organisations
- anyone could simple created their own currency
- Will be used for: hotels - you buy tokens and buy food, massages, trips, everything by those tokens. After the holidays you will be awarder by free tokens, so you could spend them next time you visit this hotel or this type of hotel (can be used for all hotels under 1 owner)
+ casinos, travel agencies, marketplaces, stores
- those coins could be used as a special salary for all kinds of organisations to avoid paying high taxes

[bitfromit]

Gosh huge buy order on Bter http://bter.com/trade/nxt_btc 317,000 at 9,110

[bitcoinpaul]

I am following BCNext's plan! He is clearly much smarter than me, who am I to second guess his recommendations.
In any case it makes a lot of sense to me that NXT itself should be as close to free to use as possible. Think how much it costs to use the Internet, or normal cash. If using the internet had a per minute fee (like Compuserve did), it would never have become what it is. Most people dont seem to under stand this. Elasticity of price demand, eg. lower cost -> more volumes.

I suggest that everybody just IGNORE any amount that comes in from forging. If it comes in, great, if not, dont worry. NXT is about building an economy.

...

Maybe it is more than just that.

[abctc]

Looks like nextcoin.org should be totally avoided. Too many "bans" and "block".

I won't use  nextcoin.org.

- me too. Lets leave nextcoin.org to such people like Drexme and the owners of DGex...  We have nxtcrypto.org !

[bitcoinpaul]

3) Proof of stake coins for organisations
- anyone could simple created their own currency
- Will be used for: hotels - you buy tokens and buy food, massages, trips, everything by those tokens. After the holidays you will be awarder by free tokens, so you could spend them next time you visit this hotel or this type of hotel (can be used for all hotels under 1 owner)
+ casinos, travel agencies, marketplaces, stores
- those coins could be used as a special salary for all kinds of organisations to avoid paying high taxes

nice!

[S3MKi]

Here are the last pieces of the video interview that my buddy Leon Fu and I did with Anon136 about nxt:

What Is The Difference Between The Bitcoin (BTC) Blockchain Vs. The Nextcoin (NXT) Blockchain?
http://prisonorfreedom.com/what-is-the-difference-between-the-bitcoin-btc-blockchain-vs-the-nextcoin-nxt-blockchain/

Why Were Security Flaws Purposely Put Into The Nextcoin (NXT)'s Source Code By It's Developers?
http://prisonorfreedom.com/why-were-security-flaws-purposely-put-into-the-nextcoin-nxts-source-code-by-its-developers/

Who Are The Key Players & Programmers Of The Nextcoin (NXT) Source Code?
http://prisonorfreedom.com/who-are-the-key-players-programmers-of-the-nextcoin-nxt-source-code/

Should Investors Be Worried About Nextcoin (NXT)'S Price Volatility?
http://prisonorfreedom.com/should-investors-be-worried-about-nextcoin-nxts-price-volatility/

I hope these videos with Anon136 will help to educate new adopters and investors of Nxt.

Tai Zen

Can you add subtitles in future for non english speaking people?