NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[BrianNowhere]

If there's a way to verify forging participation in the past for a certain time period, that would probably be better and make the reward time static. The nodes could still agree on the winner by "picking account numbers out of a hat" so to speak.

Maybe, I should clarify something.

It is not forging and its participation that needs to be improved.

It is about having more nodes securing the network by:
 1) storing the blockchains
 2) answering requests from clients
 3) distributing block and transaction data

Furthermore, accounts != nodes. It is not about to encourage the creation of accounts but of running nodes.

I thought both things were at issue. Forging rewards have been being debated here for a while, with many advocating for asking people to forge as a 'civic duty' which I don't think will work if NXT ever becomes mainstream. for one, you are asking people to broadcast their IP address which puts them at risk for DDOS attack. Even barring that, laziness is the number one reason most people will not do it.

It was my understanding that both forging and running nodes are important parts of keeping the network healthy and that both parts need some sort of incentive to get enough people to do them.

Exactly. Both parts are needed. Separately. And incented separately.

If the developers deigned to use the lottery idea for either forging or running nodes I would be pleased as punch. The key for me is that most people will do whatever is easiest. If forging is more difficult than not forging then most people will not forge, UNLESS you give them a good reason to.

Running nodes seems like a more detailed endeavor requiring some technical know-how. I actually think it will be easier to recruit technical people towards 'civic duty' type activities than it will be for causal users. Tech people are more likely to use the infrastructure for all the neat things it does and naturally want to support it AND be able to . Casual users need some kind of carrot.

[jl777]

Would there be any proof of stake in your coin? What happens when the coin is mined to capacity? To me the whole issue with people who mine is that they only mine for the coins. What will happen when there are no coins left to mine? They will move on to the next coin. The whole thing about the mining logic is that they are not in it for the network (which I can understand). To me it seems that POW is not the best answer in the long term. A mined coin may get a lot of initial support but in the long run, POW is not going to compete with POS..... especially when the asset exchange allows people who don't know how to write program to create there own coins. I think for a coin to be long term successful POS or some form of rewarding has to be used to keep people using running the network once the coins are mined out. I like your idea though.

I am currently planning for the NXTcoins platform Asset to have about a 10% stake in mining output. Unlike all other presale, premine,etc., it will start with 0 coins. However, as the miners are mining the coins, the platform company will get its share. These funds will be used to pay for whatever servers the platform requires, but most importantly marketing costs.

As far as the duration of mining
1 billion issued
100,000 minedper day
10800 days = 30 years

Maybe it should be 250,000 coins per day? I really dont like the exponentially decaying output that almost all the coins have. It shouldnt be constant, but close to it. Actually, why cant it be constant. That would make it easy to code
The early adopters get a big advantage as when the first dividend comes in, they will be the ones with the biggest percentage of the coin. I am still not decided on the coin mining rate, but since the number of coins is totally independent from network security, it can be any method at all. I could build in a lottery system. Miners could get extra on their birthdays, etc.

As the network gets bigger, its value increases and as long as the marketing arm of the coin is doing its job, it will be able to bring in more revenues. Which boosts the coin value, which increases the number of miners, which increases its value.

Nice little positive feedback loop going on. I will probably only do a few coins to show an example of how it can be done and assuming the business coin does well, it will be very easy for new coins to be created to plug into the NXTcoins layer. By providing marketing and technical support for the NXTcoins, it allows someone that is totally technical to concentrate on what makes their coin unique and not have to get bogged down in the day to day details of marketing and customer support.

This also means that the NXTcoins platform company will need to hire non-programmers to help with the customer support and other non-technical tasks. The 10% of the NXTcoins and the dividends in NXT those NXTcoins get should provide enough budget to pay for whatever staff is needed. As the enterprise grows, more funds come in to pay for the costs.

James

P.S. I am looking for people to help me with my business coin. I think I can do most all the tech myself as all the hard work is already done with NXT. I just dont have the skills to do a decent website, nor the time to market this.

[NxtMinnow]

Self-Configuring, Self-Optimizing, and Self-Healing networks are the Gold Standard in modern wireless mesh networking.  The algorithms to accomplish these network characteristics are already present in various open-source wireless router firmware including HSMM-Mesh and Commotion Wireless.

Since these router firmwares are open source, the algorithms and protocols used to accomplish seamless mesh networking could be easily adapted to enable the most efficient and redundant network topology possible for the NXT ecosystem.  

I encourage the core NXT developers to adopt and integrate the Gold Standard characteristics of mesh networks to the NXT ecosystem.  The strength of the network will grow by orders of magnitude as more nodes are added with a mesh network traffic routing protocol enabled in the NXT ecosystem.

NxtMinnow

[Jerical13]

I will be coming out with "coins" that are actually NXT AE assets that can be mined by CPU. Every miner will need to be running a NXT node. If there is any level of market for such a coin the miners will start mining by the droves. Since the market for it is AE, we can always jump start the market by subsidizing the prices during the early days in order to ensure enough network capacity

This is another great service on top of NXT (besides the NXTopia) that stimulates the AE. +1

I like this very much.
it allows us to keep the "miners" on board and still helps secure the network without changing the core mechanics.

Elegant!

Would mining be needed for coins created on the exchange? I thought you could just "create" assets.  

It would have no value if there were a billion available to be sold, so nobody would mine that. I have to make the Asset scarce so that it behaves like PoW coin inventory, well I dont like all pre-mine, etc. so the good news is that we can define  how the mining works. Just need some tech to enforce the rules. If you think about it, even bitcoin can one day say, hey we removed the cap and now there can be 21 billion of them. There is nothing that prevents that other than the social contract, and also the fact that it would instantly destroy all credibility makes it an extremely illogical and unlikely event. As long as we can create the same dynamic with NXTcoins, it will work like other PoW coins.

James

Not really. Whoever created the currency would have control over its availability. Kind of like You are the FED. Who cares if no one mines. All of the increased value would benefit whoever created the coin. If you had a market or demand. There is more profit in creating a market than mining coins.

Really. As the creator of the currency, I can say that I would only sell any coins that I mined or purchased and that the coins that have been created by issuing, but not yet mined are off limits. I can enforce this with peer nodes verifying the balance 24/7. Any violation of this would destroy the coin. It could also be possible to use AT savings account to release the coins in a predictable and controlled fashion. That would reduce the risk to just the current batch that is being released could be misappropriated.

I want to recreate all the important characteristic of minable coins and have it exist on top of NXT. This will totally solve any network capacity issues as the miners have some pretty powerful rigs. It also allows miners to become part of the NXT economy, which I know will be a lot better than XYZ coin

James

P.S. Testnet got a block! NEW block.(5965269559946416574) vs lastblock.(4203933645799564239)

One of the things I like about NXT is that it has the potential to make mining obsolete. This whole operation even being needed seems like a waving of the white flag by POS, admitting that the network can't be secured without mining.

I'm old enough to remember going though an energy crisis. If that ever happens again a lot of people are going to be giving the stink eye to the alternative coin mining community. I mean why did we even invent all those pig-tail looking light-bulbs if this is how we're going to squander electricity?

You are right. If you are trading on the asset exchange you are securing the NXT network because you have to pay fees in NXT and you have to run the client. Really the only issue people have is that there are people who own more stake and therefore have an advantage on generating blocks. But really the difference is the same.... It is an advantage to have server power an specified  knowledge in computers to mine coins. What is the difference between having an advantage in block generation between having a lot of stake or expensive mining equipment?
The difference is common people are more capable of acquiring stake than buying, operating and maintaining the equipment it takes to mine. If you base a coins mode of generation on the complaints of people who are complaining that POS is not fair because they don't have a lot of stake you are short sighted to the fact that there are a lot more people out there who don't have mining equipment and wouldn't know how to use it if they had it.
uneven distribution makes POS seem not fair to miners; they say POS coins like NXT are centralized by stake holders; The reality is that anyone can buy NXT and forge coins, only a few can mine POW coins. In the long term POS will be better because there is a broader base of people who can participate and the more people who participate the more fair the forging will be. Don't cave to a bunch of whining miners, they are just trying to turn things to their own advantage.

[ChuckOne]

If there's a way to verify forging participation in the past for a certain time period, that would probably be better and make the reward time static. The nodes could still agree on the winner by "picking account numbers out of a hat" so to speak.

Maybe, I should clarify something.

It is not forging and its participation that needs to be improved.

It is about having more nodes securing the network by:
 1) storing the blockchains
 2) answering requests from clients
 3) distributing block and transaction data

Furthermore, accounts != nodes. It is not about encouraging the creation of accounts but about running nodes.

The PeerExplorer project encourages public nodes by randomly rewarding caches every 6 hours to active and registered public 'peers'.  Forging status does not affect the possibility for cache reward.  A 'cache' is a NXT account that has been seeded by a small amount of NXT (usually 5-20).  A cache is funded by a 'sponsor, and collected by a 'peer' by revealing the account secret phrase on the website.

I'm surprised it hasn't taken off more...  Number of registered peers has been relatively static over the last few weeks, and sponsorship could use a boost.

Step up and support the NXT network as a peer or sponsor!

https://www.peerexplorer.com/

disclaimer: I am a happy 'public peer' provider who was encouraged to set up multiple VPS nodes because of peerexplorer.com

Nice.

Looks like we have several different ideas to keep the number of active and supporting nodes up and running.

[verymuchso]

Could someone please send me test nxt?

12790521293207104739

Thanks

[mthcl]

2036840723237273850, thanks a lot!

But please hold on, I didn't yet do anything useful   

[EvilDave]

Really. As the creator of the currency, I can say that I would only sell any coins that I mined or purchased and that the coins that have been created by issuing, but not yet mined are off limits. I can enforce this with peer nodes verifying the balance 24/7. Any violation of this would destroy the coin. It could also be possible to use AT savings account to release the coins in a predictable and controlled fashion. That would reduce the risk to just the current batch that is being released could be misappropriated.

I think we should lend more energy and thought to this line of reasoning as it really does solve the problem of securing the network while also creating a new market at the same time.

And even if the coin fails we can always create another and another and another similar coin until we get it right.

Hate to be definitive, but this is the answer.
Leave forging as it is, reward running a node and contributing.
Get the mining community on board, give them a small, guaranteed income from NxtNodeCoin (or whatever) in exchange for running NRS nodes.
NXT stakeholders will still continue to forge, either solo or in pools, particularly when TX revenues start to ramp up,  but this will also encourage people who never even thought of using NXT to get on board.

[chanc3r]

Please run for infrastructure committee! These are some cool ideas. We might get emergent behavior from a self-organizing network.

Thanks James.
This is the stuff I know from my time in telco and real time finance and am interested in (apart from Nxtopia  )...
I thought this stuff was techdev because its software, but if its infrastructure I'll drop ricky a note about switching although I think that group already has some strong and well respected candidates.

[opticalcarrier]

BITTREX update:  Ive been exchanging emails with Richie over the past few weeks, answering his questions, etc; his last email indicated they are about to move into dev testing.

[Coinonaer]

P.S. I am looking for people to help me with my business coin. I think I can do most all the tech myself as all the hard work is already done with NXT. I just dont have the skills to do a decent website, nor the time to market this.

Hi James.

Very good idea. I can help you getting attention in Germany. Will write about this in my blog.

[EvilDave]

2036840723237273850, thanks a lot!

But please hold on, I didn't yet do anything useful  

So start.....what can u do?
(Edit time: I've just been informed that mthcl has translated a shitload of Wiki pages for NXT, and was being a bit ironic in the above post. I missed any irony involved by a country mile... )




So: to anyone and everyone sitting on the sidelines: GET INVOLVED !

Every small contribution helps.
If u want to actively help NXT:  get off yr ass, look around, find somewhere u can help and dive on in.
Don't hang back because u might not want to look foolish or make a mistake.
No one here is perfect, (except me, of course), just do your best.

[Jerical13]

Really. As the creator of the currency, I can say that I would only sell any coins that I mined or purchased and that the coins that have been created by issuing, but not yet mined are off limits. I can enforce this with peer nodes verifying the balance 24/7. Any violation of this would destroy the coin. It could also be possible to use AT savings account to release the coins in a predictable and controlled fashion. That would reduce the risk to just the current batch that is being released could be misappropriated.

I think we should lend more energy and thought to this line of reasoning as it really does solve the problem of securing the network while also creating a new market at the same time.

And even if the coin fails we can always create another and another and another similar coin until we get it right.

I think you have something there. I think the future is in creating a lot of coins that are a little bit successful. kind of like custom coins made for particular markets like local currencies, pension funds, currencies that can be exchanged in smaller circles inside the NXT free market, Designer coins; to me there mode of generation is irrelevant. A coins failure is only possible without a market, so if you concentrate on developing a market along with a coin or specifically make a coin for a market it won't fail. If you just create a coin you will be like one of the 100 on crypto market cap  whose developers are hoping people will buy. If you have a market then it doesn't matter how you generate the coin really.

[EvilDave]

Please run for infrastructure committee! These are some cool ideas. We might get emergent behavior from a self-organizing network.

Thanks James.
This is the stuff I know from my time in telco and real time finance and am interested in (apart from Nxtopia  )...
I thought this stuff was techdev because its software, but if its infrastructure I'll drop ricky a note about switching although I think that group already has some strong and well respected candidates.

I second that, otherwise I might have to put myself up as candidate for infrastructure committee.
(I'm not joking, can't let RJ be supreme lord of infrastructure all by his ownsome)

[jl777]

2036840723237273850, thanks a lot!

But please hold on, I didn't yet do anything useful   

test NXT please 18232225178877143084

[mthcl]

2036840723237273850, thanks a lot!

But please hold on, I didn't yet do anything useful   

So start.....what can u do?

And to everyone else sitting on the sidelines: GET INVOLVED !

Every small contribution helps.
If u want to actively help NXT:  get off yr ass, look around, find somewhere u can help and dive on in.
Don't hang back because u might not want to look foolish or make a mistake.
No one here is perfect, (except me, of course), just do your best.

Surely, no one sitting on the sidelines can resist such an invitation. One humble question: does translating around 500 wiki entries count as an involvement?

My remark about "anything useful" meant that I'm really interesting in constructing a reasonable math model to estimate probabilities of a successful attack on the network, but didn't yet advance too much on this.

[verymuchso]

Same here, please send some test nxt

12790521293207104739

[igmaca]

with nrs 0.8.1e nxt client do not conect in https://127.0.0.1:7875/
can someone explain why?

[msin]

On the contrary, I want to rescue the computing power that is being wasted mindlessly calculating hashes. My first coin will actually productively use the computing power to solve business problems, or at least problems that directly map to a business solution. Also, instead of having 99.9% of the calculations being wasted (there is only one winner per block), my coin will have just a three way redundancy. That allows it to validate results without an unacceptable loss from redundancy.

For better or worse, the mining industry has created a monstrous computing machine. Giga, tera, peta(!) and beyond. However, all that computing on something that has no real world value. What if we can get 33% efficient use of all that computing power? How much is it worth to a business to tap into that computing power?

The market is built in for my business coin. Business will pay for the computing power in NXT(!) and this NXT gets distributed to the miners on a prorata basis as their holdings. This also means that the business that is paying for the computing power can get a discount by purchasing the business coins.

I need to finish the automated gateway so I can start on the NXTcoin platform. Actually, the code base will have a lot in common as creating peer reviewing gateways is really the same thing as peer reviewing the coins in circulation. The really cool thing is that I get to tie all the various things I am interested in and combine them all into a three layer NXTcoin system, which helps NXT network and price demand.

James

Just curious, when you say that miners would receive Nxt per their holdings of Nxtcoin, where would this Nxt come from? 

[opticalcarrier]

with nrs 0.8.1e nxt client do not conect in https://127.0.0.1:7875/
can someone explain why?

SSL isnt enabled by default. see JLP's release notes and the nxt-default.properties file for more info