NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[bitcoinpaul]

It's an interesting idea.

I think we should all remember BCNext's vision for NXT and his thoughts regarding fees.  I agree with BCNext wanting NXT fees to be low.  Imo, 1000 NXT for asset name registration is too high.  I think you should be able to register an asset name for 1 NXT.  By setting NXT fees high, we are excluding people from NXT because they cannot afford the registration price.  NXT should be for everyone.

We should first talk about WHAT we want to accomplish and WHY. I don't want to hear "uh, it's interesting", "yeah, nice idea" or "BCNext said fee must be low".

I want your real motivation behind this first. After we discussed that, we could talk about possible realization.

edit: Exluding people from NXT is a very lax assumption.

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[wesleyh]

It's an interesting idea.

I think we should all remember BCNext's vision for NXT and his thoughts regarding fees.  I agree with BCNext wanting NXT fees to be low.  Imo, 1000 NXT for asset name registration is too high.  I think you should be able to register an asset name for 1 NXT.  By setting NXT fees high, we are excluding people from NXT because they cannot afford the registration price.  NXT should be for everyone.

We should first talk about WHAT we want to accomplish and WHY. I don't want to hear "uh, it's interesting", "yeah, nice idea" or "BCNext said fee must be low".

I want your motivation behind this first. After we discussed that, we could talk about possible realization.

If you cannot pay 1000 NXT for an asset, then what is your asset going to do anyway?

[2Kool4Skewl]

It's an interesting idea.

I think we should all remember BCNext's vision for NXT and his thoughts regarding fees.  I agree with BCNext wanting NXT fees to be low.  Imo, 1000 NXT for asset name registration is too high.  I think you should be able to register an asset name for 1 NXT.  By setting NXT fees high, we are excluding people from NXT because they cannot afford the registration price.  NXT should be for everyone.

We should first talk about WHAT we want to accomplish and WHY. I don't want to hear "uh, it's interesting", "yeah, nice idea" or "BCNext said fee must be low".

I want your motivation behind this first. After we discussed that, we could talk about possible realization.

By setting NXT fees high, we are excluding people from NXT because they cannot afford the registration price.  NXT should be for everyone.

This was BCNext's reason for wanting low fees and I agree with him.

[Emule]

In the latest LetsTalkBitcoin podcast (88), NXT gets a small mention..

http://letstalkbitcoin.com/e88-gox-gox-gox-gox-gox-gox-gox/#.UxOzX-NdXkk
(Ethereum Evangelist Joel Dietz, about 36 mins in)

They aren't going to know what hit 'em  

These people seem to be not really aware of Nxt... I guess  

I would be scared as an Ethereum guy^^

nobody is aware of nxt thanks to epic failing marketing

they burn nxt with zero result and wrong approach but nobody dare to tell

marketing priority must be get fresh money in to nxt but money is flowing out of nxt due constant selling.

What do you suggest then?

whales need to stop selling below 1$


simple: draw the money into nxt! nxt need BUY VOLUME!

you dont get that by shaking hands on conferences exchaging printed businesscards.

marketing must shift and focus on investors, not in the public that already know nxt as they do now.

GO GET THE MONEY

[Come-from-Beyond]

By setting NXT fees high, we are excluding people from NXT because they cannot afford the registration price.  NXT should be for everyone.

This was BCNext's reason for wanting low fees and I agree with him.

1000 NXT is just a countermeasure to prevent squatting of best names in the very 1st day after AE is launched. Later we can set the fee to 1 NXT.

[longzai1988]

By setting NXT fees high, we are excluding people from NXT because they cannot afford the registration price.  NXT should be for everyone.

This was BCNext's reason for wanting low fees and I agree with him.

I am hearing bitcoin is going to reduce its transaction fees to 10 folds, that is not even 1cents, if that happen, 1Nxt as transactions fees is definitely too high

[2Kool4Skewl]

It's an interesting idea.

I think we should all remember BCNext's vision for NXT and his thoughts regarding fees.  I agree with BCNext wanting NXT fees to be low.  Imo, 1000 NXT for asset name registration is too high.  I think you should be able to register an asset name for 1 NXT.  By setting NXT fees high, we are excluding people from NXT because they cannot afford the registration price.  NXT should be for everyone.

We should first talk about WHAT we want to accomplish and WHY. I don't want to hear "uh, it's interesting", "yeah, nice idea" or "BCNext said fee must be low".

I want your motivation behind this first. After we discussed that, we could talk about possible realization.

If you cannot pay 1000 NXT for an asset, then what is your asset going to do anyway?

Assets don't have to be physically backed.  They can be a form of social credit.  Communities that use social credit systems usually do so because they lack capital.

[pandaisftw]

I think you can ensure that per gateway there is only one AE asset type for a RL Asset e.g. USD, I think this will avoid confusion, if you have a legit USD and a scammer can create US or USd or some variant people will get scammed.

We cannot force other people not to build a gateway on their own. We can build a nice community-drive gateway which could become very big and everyone uses it. But that's about it.

and be clear on the AE which gateway and asset is being traded through.

Absolutely.

Just a stupid question:
How to distinguish different issued assets with same asset name by different issuers on AE ?

I think that that is what the gateway does. It makes external assets appear as they are from the same set of assets, created at the same time, by the same account, no matter when or who creates them. A doge that comes through the gateway today will be seen the same as a doge that comes through tomorrow or a week or year from now. I don't know by what coding magic this is done but that is how James explained it to me in laymen terms.

There can only be one asset named "DOGE" so different gateways would have "myDOGE" or "otherDOGE", etc.

This is the confusion I am worried about. There is no guarantee that the community will get the asset named "DOGE", it will go to the highest bidder the block AE goes live. I am hopeful that in community spirit the ones that obtain the pure names like "DOGE", "BTC", etc would sell all the assets to the community after issuing the full billion. In ripple, anybody can issue any asset, so it becomes a very dangerous thing for the unaware. With NXT, there can be only one, but there is no guarantee the community will get the pure names...

I am thinking of offering a bounty starting at 5000 NXT for the popular crypto names, with a sliding scale from BTC down to unpopularcoin. Hopefully, a quick 4000 NXT profit and community spirit will allow the community gateways to have the pure names.

My plan B) on this is to just add a random string to all the pure names and get the one that is available across the board. It would then look a bit funny with "djwBTC" "djwLTC" and "djwDOGE" being the community crypto assets, but this way we wont be held hostage by somebody that wants 1 million NXT for the BTC asset. It shouldnt be much work for the clients to special case the "djw" prefix, and it might actually help to have a common prefix so we can have a crypto assets page

James

I remember talking to you about this to you a long time ago, but it would probably be best if you used a random, unpredictable, identifier string per asset. So this means client's like wesleyh's have to actually communicate with your servers to see which assets are valid. Then they can be sure they are buying the actual asset from your gateway. If you want, I may have an idea on how to guarantee that asset seller is really who he says he is.

If your plan is to eventually add all cryptos (even ones that havent came out yet), you will never be able to get all the "pure" asset names (or if it's non-random, someone will squat it). There will always be that one jerk who will refuse to sell to you unless you offer an exorbitant price. Let's avoid this situation.

[2Kool4Skewl]

By setting NXT fees high, we are excluding people from NXT because they cannot afford the registration price.  NXT should be for everyone.

This was BCNext's reason for wanting low fees and I agree with him.

1000 NXT is just a countermeasure to prevent squatting of best names in the very 1st day after AE is launched. Later we can set the fee to 1 NXT.

Ok.  I see.  That's a good plan.

[bitcoinpaul]

We don't exclude people from Nxt if there is a (high) fee on assets.

We exclude not-so-rich people from issuing their assets on Nxt. And we exclude people who have to great motivation behind issuing an asset.

[bitcoinpaul]

Communities that use social credit systems usually do so because they lack capital.

That's right.

But I want a broader discussion of motivation and implications before we just say "come on, let's make it free".

edit:

Possible motivations:

- spam prevention
- Name squatting
- scamming possibilities by issuing nearlyidentical assets (like "BTC.")
- low entry barrier for raising money (e.g. social credit system)
- overwhelming confusing supply of different assets

what else?

[ChuckOne]

Alright. Hmm, so, we have no empirical data so far.

Indeed - and there was no empirical data presented to "justify" the penalty (or whatever we call it - the *name* of it is not an issue to me - so call it "a rose" but I still think it is a kludge and I am not convinced it will help with the security of the network).

By "fragmenting" the forks all over the place it will actually reduce the effectiveness of such attacks.

Why is that? Malicious nodes could spread forks all over the place and generate blocks very easily on top (because it's PoS not PoW) at the same time to suppress branches from other nodes.

The issue I am referring to is perhaps best illustrated like this:

A1 - B
A2 - B
A1 - C
A2 - D

So assuming that A1 and A2 have the "same weight" then B here is trying to keep both A1 and A2 branches going whilst C and D have each only built on the 1 branch.

Now here is a possible next step:

A1 - B
A2 - B - E
A1 - C
A2 - D - F

Here E and F have separately chosen A2 - B and A2 - D as being "their first choice" and only built upon those (being non-malicious nodes).

So now B's attempt to continue the A1 branch has failed (that fork will likely die now) simply because E did not try to forge 2 blocks at the same height.

Now if we were instead to use the "penalty" approach then in fact we would instead have this result:

A1 - B - E
A2 - B - E
A1 - C - F
A2 - D - F

As both E and F know they are going to get penalised by one or other branch they will forge on both branches causing the branching to continue.

I hope this helps clarify what I am seeing and why I think the idea of "only forging the 1 block at the one height" is a better approach (sure people can "cheat" but as shown provided those cheating are in the minority the effect is greatly reduced).

Maybe, I am still tired. But I do not get the semantics of your syntax.

I seems to me like you mixing accounts, blocks and nodes. Could you clarify that for me?

[ChuckOne]

What would differentiate a "Class A" asset from a "Class B" asset?

The amount of fee that needed to be paid to register for a start and then also perhaps we could limit Class B Asset to not being able to have as many units/shares.

Interesting idea.

But I am not quite sure the amount of shares qualifies a different price tag.

[ChuckOne]

It's an interesting idea.

I think we should all remember BCNext's vision for NXT and his thoughts regarding fees.  I agree with BCNext wanting NXT fees to be low.  Imo, 1000 NXT for asset name registration is too high.  I think you should be able to register an asset name for 1 NXT.  By setting NXT fees high, we are excluding people from NXT because they cannot afford the registration price.  NXT should be for everyone.

We should first talk about WHAT we want to accomplish and WHY. I don't want to hear "uh, it's interesting", "yeah, nice idea" or "BCNext said fee must be low".

I want your motivation behind this first. After we discussed that, we could talk about possible realization.

If you cannot pay 1000 NXT for an asset, then what is your asset going to do anyway?

If you have a small business, you maybe cannot afford so much NXT in the future.

I agree, we need to adjust the amount of NXT spend to real world prices. But we should not rush.

[2Kool4Skewl]

Communities that use social credit systems usually do so because they lack capital.

That's right.

But I want a broader discussion of motivation and implications before we just say "come on, let's make it free".

The higher we make the registration fee, the lower the amount of assets that will be registered on Nxt's AE.  Keeping the asset registration fee high doesn't benefit anyone.  It doesn't benefit those who would like to register an asset and it also doesn't benefit the forgers.  The forgers might make more NXT per asset registered, but there will be fewer assets registered if the fee is high.  Leaving the asset registration fee at 1000 NXT, like Come-from-Beyond mentioned, is a good idea to prevent squatting.

It's my thought that alias registration, asset registration and tx fees should all be low, 0.1 NXT or less.

[ChuckOne]

nobody is aware of nxt thanks to epic failing marketing

they burn nxt with zero result and wrong approach but nobody dare to tell

marketing priority must be get fresh money in to nxt but money is flowing out of nxt due constant selling.

What do you suggest then?

whales need to stop selling below 1$


simple: draw the money into nxt! nxt need BUY VOLUME!

you dont get that by shaking hands on conferences exchaging printed businesscards.

marketing must shift and focus on investors, not in the public that already know nxt as they do now.

GO GET THE MONEY

Well, I agree. Fiat volume is one key success factor of NXT.

What target audience do you think would be interested in NXT?

I think banks are not interested as NXT is the holy thread to their current, very profitable system.

[farl4web]

So could some stakeholders put the biggest chunk of bounty in history of mankind out there for atomic cross chain transaction on nxt please? During this time (this will take a while?!) we should have the best community driven gateway possible, which james is currently building.

OK.
3M NXT (up to 5M for additional features) for atomic cross chain transactions.
Conditions:
a) working client for average user;
b) official approve of all three NXT Funding Committees;
c) fully working asset exchange;
d) working transparent forging in the part marked bold:

NB: The only penalty is inability to mine blocks within some period of time. They still can decide not to bother with mining, but their "hashing" power will be distributed to those who do protect the network.

Last two conditions are my conditions to stop holding investment in 50M NXT.

Good job man! Good to see that the stakeholders are awake and willing to invest in Nxt! Maybe you can help with Peerexplorer.com too? Putting as much nodes as possible to strengten the Nxt network. 

[Emule]

nobody is aware of nxt thanks to epic failing marketing

they burn nxt with zero result and wrong approach but nobody dare to tell

marketing priority must be get fresh money in to nxt but money is flowing out of nxt due constant selling.

What do you suggest then?

whales need to stop selling below 1$


simple: draw the money into nxt! nxt need BUY VOLUME!

you dont get that by shaking hands on conferences exchaging printed businesscards.

marketing must shift and focus on investors, not in the public that already know nxt as they do now.

GO GET THE MONEY

Well, I agree. Fiat volume is one key success factor of NXT.

What target audience do you think would be interested in NXT?

I think banks are not interested as NXT is the holy thread to their current, very profitable system.

there is some guy getting 40k a month here to figure that out!

i dont consult for free

[fmiboy]

Good news everyone.
Video already done, you can download it from this topic:
https://nextcoin.org/index.php/topic,3981.msg37555.html#msg37555

great work guys, video looks awesome!

[michey1980]

ow,my god ,look ,what was i lost .give me a chance and let me join the NMAC share ,please!!very  thanks,i just want the NMAC shares for  300000 ,thanks !my nxt coin was ready to fee.ok?