[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[Solarminer]

What value would a currency have if only 1 person held the entire supply?

Quite a lot actually.

In most assets, the majority share is held by a minority. That's what gives it value. If you distribute stuff widely, it has no value (because it's widely distributed).

However, we've got to look at this in the context of a remark that distributeToMePls made:

Richest 1% to own more than rest of world, Oxfam says

The basis for the asymmetry of wealth in the world is asymmetry in the money creation process. It's nothing to do with politics.

People without a banking licence cannot repay their loans on the same basis as they borrowed (i.e. by levering up liquidity on a fixed asset base). If banking was decentralised you'd be able to pay your mortgage off 10 times faster that you would than with the current system.

Let me explain it another way:

[1] - when you borrow for a mortgage, you are not borrowing PAST wealth. You are borrowing FUTURE wealth (worth nothing)
[2] - when you repay your mortgage, you are paying PAST wealth

Thats the reason for the asymmetrical wealth in the world. To get your hands on any money you need to do work. The lenders only need to print.

************ Solution ***************

There are 2 solutions to this scam. 1 is the old gold standard (which limits the ability of banks to print).
The other is to continue the current banking system but decentralise and granulise it so that people CAN repay their mortgages on the same basis that they borrowed.

Bitcoin and Dash are electronic equivalents of gold. There are no others that closely match the historical properties of money in the top 20 cryptos.

For [2], the solution is Bitshares. Bitshares is a decentralised bank. I have nowhere near the same holdings in BTS as I do in Dash (because it isn't as much fun) but economically. Bitshares is an incredibly liberating concept - probably way ahead of its time - except it actually works now.

It takes the banking model and makes it available to anyone that cares to own a share in that model. Not only that, it establishes a natural commercial interface between the market for risk assets and the market for stable currencies. (See if egg heads like GMaxwell or ABack are even interested in economics. They are not - they are coders).

Dash, on the other hand is a token.

Until 2009 there were no electronic, uncounterfeitable tokens. Now that they've been discovered, their value will follow the classic characteristics of cash: e.g. instant, verifiable, anonymous (not private). Dash is a value basis - like gold nuggets. A very different concept from Bitshares.

Great post.  It deserves another look.

It is so surprising that banks have problems.  Really, how can you possibly lose money if you can make loans with nearly 0 collateral.  If the borrower doesn't pay you take the asset and sell it off.  If the borrower does pay, you get the amount loaned with interest.

A comment on the second solution.  If loans are required to have 100% collateral, they still will cause problems since the interest needs to come from somewhere(Future wealth).  It does slow down the process, but is still going to end in collapse.  Most long term civilizations that use interest have debt jubilees.  They basically wipe all the debts and start over.  Alternatively, countries can revalue their currency every 30 years to postpone the problem until it is is worth nothing.

Another solution to manage this is to have all the banks owned by the government.  Then any interest they collect is used for public works, taxes, and government expenses.  There would not need to be an income tax or sales tax.  This is actually the ideal scenario, but a little unpopular with the private banks.  Lincoln and Kennedy were assassinated because they wanted to get rid of the privately owned federal reserve and use greenbacks. (For those that took the red pill, I mean the assassinations were by single individuals(Booth/Oswald) and as a bonus Oswald used a magic bullet.  They were totally unrelated to any unpopular policies.)

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[smoothie]

PAID SOCK PUPPET &  TROLL!

Wow...cant believe how low class and desperate xmrats are.  Right from the ghetto.

really? who is paying to be a paid sock puppet and troll?

Sign me up 

[smoothie]

If you have 100 masternodes, you always get at least 1 double payment/round.  If you only have 1, the variance kills you.

Is it 1% chance per node?

So same would be the case if someone had 1000 nodes they would get 10 double payments?

[smoothie]

Duffield needs to rethink his extreme compound interest node system.  The Hobonickel and it's interest were considered kind of sketchy, and it's nowhere near as sketchy as Dash.  For coins like the Hobonickel, you got huge interest if nobody staked, but it goes down to like 1% if everyone stakes.  The stakers and miners are also all competing for the same pie with no distinction between the two.  In Dashcoin, you have tons of people staking, yet everyone appears to be making huge gains.  Something doesn't quite add up here.

In the Hobonickel, someone gaining more stake just increased their mining power, but giving people huge compound interest in Dashcoin is completely different because they're constantly manufacturing new Sybil nodes, thus hurting the integrity of the system.  I'm not going to pretend any system is fully Sybil resistant, but if people want Sybil nodes, you should at least force them to pay for it in the form of mining expenditure or buying on exchange instead of giving it to them for free. 

If you give people compound interest, you should probably be raising the coin requirement for a supernode, but instead, Duffield is talking about lowering it to 500, increasing Sybil count even higher? lol?  Is this coin supposed to be some kind of Sybil manufacturing plant?

Consider the implications in extreme cases for the "1/100 chance of receiving a double payment" "Easter egg."

If you have 100 masternodes, you always get at least 1 double payment/round.  If you only have 1, the variance kills you.

It's far easier to go from 100 to 101 (and thus, 100 to 200) masternodes than from 1 to 2 using interest, and the "Easter egg" only compounds that effect.  So the richest DashHoles get even richer, faster, depending mostly on how rich they are to begin with.

As with the aborted air-drop attempt to correct the insta-mine's maldistribution, the "Easter egg" is yet another gift to otoh the dash whale.  It's actually more of quid pro quo, to repay otoh for single-handedly propping up the price of this dying, obsolete scam and getting new pumps going.

Like Scientology, this cult is run for the benefit of its High Priest, financier, and enforcers, not the late-comers.

And by late-comer I mean anyone who didn't participate in the first 48 hours of gratuitous instamining.

We'd like to attribute this to incompetence, but the preponderance of evidence for malice is overwhelming.

Don't forget it was a feature that the emission was jacked up in the first 2 days. When you paint yourself into a corner just put a spin on things and say "no one can stand in my corner!". 

[TanteStefana2]

Do we really have to play this game over and over again?  The Dash team are the most up and up in all of crypto.  The only difference between Bitcoin's developers who are out in the open and Dash developers who are also out in the open, is that Dash actually has a talented crew.

Ask yourself:

1.  Why does the Dash team put their real names out there, plus their biographies?
2.  Who is attacking them?  Do you know their real life names?
3.  What kind of people spend all day on the Dash announcement thread attacking the Dash team and community with lies and slander?

I will tell you.  Scammers. 

The funny thing is, they're calling the Dash project a scam.  Such chutzpah shows their psychopathy clearer than anything else could.

[iCEBREAKER]

Bitcoin's developers who are out in the open

You believe Newsweek's story about Satoshi Nakamoto being a befuddled old model train hobbyist in LA?

I'm sure you'd rather gossip like a catty bitch about people and personalities, who-likes-who, and who's-fucking-who, but please save that stuff for your Facebook friends.

Here, the subject is Dash so we discuss crypto and computer science.  Do you know anything about those topics?

[toknormal]

Here...we discuss...computer science.

LoL.

Computer science 

[iCEBREAKER]

Bitcoin's developers who are out in the open

Satoshi Nakamoto is out in the open?  Oh that's right.  You are a Newsweek subscriber...

All starting to close in on you, isn't it son?

All that BTC you stole at Hashfast and it's just dawned on you that you swapped it all for a honeypot currency that you now can't get it out of.

How did your interview go today by the way?   

Lash out at folks as much as you want, you started this and you'll reap the consequences.

DASH is digital cash, can't wait for the next Evolution update.

"Honeypot?"  "Interview?"  "Consequences?"

What unsubstantiated lunacy.  You're really getting out into the weeds.

DASH is digital trash, can't wait for the SEC and FBI's next investigation into that HYIP scam.

Evolution is a copy of Ethereum in the way that a cargo cult's bamboo runway is a copy.

[BurstBurst]

Isn't good time to buy DARKCOIN ?

[toknormal]

Stamp back at 280.

[Sub-Ether]

Here...we discuss...computer science.

LoL.
Computer science 

The 51% attack in this respect means over 51% of the posts per page are paid spam hidden agenda bitchez.

[iCEBREAKER]

Here...we discuss...computer science.

LoL.
Computer science 

The 51% attack in this respect means over 51% of the posts per page are paid spam hidden agenda bitchez.

We discuss here as it´s a discussion board, if you don´t like discussions you should close the browser.

[paka]

Everyone is in this thread because Dash is the only monetary medium that is starting to equate to cash on an electronic platform.

Even rpietila, iCEBREAKER, Dasher & Co are here.

nah... I'm here to see what it looks like when a scam coin dies.

yeah, like bitcoin i heard so many users calling it a scam but....... look at where it is now..........

[YourMother]

https://youtu.be/wIvcQIdSbIY?t=546

I'm pretty disappointed in Evan and his explanation of Dash's instamine. In the last Fintech he said that bias can be a powerful thing, which is why he changed the name from Darkcoin to Dash. Well, i'd say that having an instamine caused by a "bug" during the time where almost every shitcoin developer was doing shady things to the code in order to get unfairly rewarded, is a more powerful bias than having the former name attached to your project.

I'm afraid that at this point we are talking about "decentralized governance" where more than 51% of the voting/rewarding power is being owned by 2 people, Otoh and Evan. If i recall correctly, Otoh admitted on having 500 masternodes not too long ago, and although the chances of owning even more are pretty high, if we take 500 masternodes and calculate the profit, we would see that those alone are giving birth to 1 masternode every 4 days. We are talking about 100 masternodes being generated every 1.1 years just by 1 guy.

Evan had and still has all the time in the world to restart the blockchain and continue with this innovation the right way, but instead he keeps reminding us how big is his share at this point, otherwise he would have no reasons not do do it.

I'm not saying that the team should work for free, even though Satoshi showed you that the opposite can be possible, without having to rely on IPO/Crowdsale/Premines, but you could've been more upfront with the method of gaining funds in the beginning. Probably the best way would've been to have a development salary proposed every month and have people agree with it via voting. Unfortunately, the idea came too late.

I'm also surprised at the fact that it took almost 1 year for the bubble to deflate. Otoh mentioned countless of times in here that he started manipulating Dash's price since last year when the price was somewhere between 600 and 700k. Sometimes i feel like the delusion is so high in here that the deflation happened because these guys were dumping their masternode revenues and not because of the people realizing that they were holding over-inflated priced coins.

[smoothie]

This is a noteworthy post. Gmaxwell thinks DarkCoin (DASH) is highly centralized and masternodes can deanonymizes its users.

Your pump and dump dance would probably be more effective if you were less transparently dishonest in your approach.

CoinJoin is trustless— which is orthogonal with centralized or decentralized, it could be implemented several ways (though trustlessness is usually a prerequisite to a decenteralized implementation). Post 5 in the CoinJoin thread writes in depth about implementing it in a decenteralized way, none of which appears to have been implemented by the darkcoin developers as far as I can tell— from what I've heard it seems that they're not even able to understand it.

what DarkCoin does is highly centralized

"masternodes" does not sound like something decenteralized, it sounds like something that creates a small chokepoint which could be used to deanonymize its users, like a server based CoinJoin but worse since you have to hold a huge pile of coins to run a server.

From what I can tell the only purpose DarkCoin serves is to depress me about the state of humanity.

[poorSathoshi]

(...)
I'm not saying that the team should work for free, even though Satoshi showed you that the opposite can be possible, without having to rely on IPO/Crowdsale/Premines, but you could've been more upfront with the method of gaining funds in the beginning. Probably the best way would've been to have a development salary proposed every month and have people agree with it via voting. Unfortunately, the idea came too late.
(...)

Bitcoin Mints Its First Billionaire: Its Inventor, Satoshi Nakamoto
http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/bitcoin-mints-its-first-billionaire-satoshi-nakamoto

[poorSathoshi]

(...)
I'm not saying that the team should work for free, even though Satoshi showed you that the opposite can be possible, without having to rely on IPO/Crowdsale/Premines, but you could've been more upfront with the method of gaining funds in the beginning. Probably the best way would've been to have a development salary proposed every month and have people agree with it via voting. Unfortunately, the idea came too late.
(...)

are u talking about the same satoshi who evaporated? poor abandoned coins with (icognito) devs who run away...  

[Minotaur26]

Bump. Evan answering some of Anonymint's questions.  These interactions always produce great results. Really good for crypto in general.

Hello!

I'm glad to see you're still around and looking at some of the more advanced issues within the space. I'm really liking how you laid out the issues and the trouble with this type of implementation. These are the exact issues that I've been thinking about solutions to over the last year and I finally found a strategy that has none of these issues mentioned.

If you review the quotes of Evan I dug up and if you understand how he implemented InstantX, then you can deduce very obviously how he is intending to implement faster TPS, as I explained. To resummarize, the block chain hash combined mathematically (hashed?) with the inputs to a transaction is used to determine which quorum of masternodes can sign the transaction, then if M of N of them sign, this is broadcast to the block chain and the transaction is considered confirmed even before the block chain has produced the next block. Note Evan specifically stated inputs and not outputs and I assume the reason is so you can't game which masternodes can be the quorum, but then each input needs to reach a mathematically determined quorum separately (don't know if he has realized that yet), and thus the number of signatures on the block chain will increase by the average number of inputs per transaction (multiplied by N!).

Thus the negative implications of this increased TPS and instant confirmations (which will be realized in his design) are as I stated upthread:

Block chain becomes more bloated due to N times more signatures, not less.

However, signatures only need to be stored for a few thousand blocks. There's simply no chance of a reorg rearranging days of transactions unless something went terribly wrong with the network. In that case, the Bitcoin code is actually setup to halt, which is better than having two competing chains for that long. So in this case, bloat is not an issue.

Also, instant transactions are now a natural result of the evolution design, not something build on top as they are currently. Instant transactions built in this way also are anonymous. We're talking about a different technology.

Immunity to 51% attack is an incorrect claim, because the block chain hash determines which quorum, thus a chain reorganization can rewrite which quorum was authorized to M of N sign.

The proof of work hashes we use are buried deeper in the blockchain for Evolution, beyond the reach of chain reorganization. It's also multiple hashes that will decide the quorum structure, we're calling this technology the quorum-chain.

The instant confirmations can not be trusted because if they are on an orphaned chain (not 51% attack but just the normal process of orphan rate or even 25 - 33% selfish mining attack), then they can be reversed.

In Evolution, miners don't decide which transactions are mined, the masternode network does via Quorum technology.

[BrainShutdown]

Bump. Evan answering some of Anonymint's questions.  These interactions always produce great results. Really good for crypto in general.

Great to see he's still around and with interest in Dash technology 

[poorSathoshi]

(...)
I always thought that the only way to change this is for Evan to quit this project and start another one with a clean distribution and conscience. The current marketcap is at 13.5 million dollars, which should never be a problem considering that Bitcoin is about to fork with a 3.5 billion marketcap. Yes, some people would suffer as a result of this, but not many. 13.5 million dollars in marketcap is nothing. Start another blockchain, use the same code/vision and simply own the altcoin scene, unless you still want to make a lot of profit from those masternodes and you just cannot stop.

If that happens, i will be the first one to invest all my money into it. Probably many more after me...

in my turn i always thought that bitcoin's blockchain should be reset, into a clean and evenly distributed coin. i'd gladly receive my personal stash of free 1000 bitcoins of personal potestative right.

It was called Litecoin. Did you miss that boat too?

awww now there are boats!? hummm... i guess these boats should also be reset, just for the sake of equality