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Author Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency  (Read 9243527 times)
noobtrader
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October 09, 2015, 12:20:58 AM

Are more MN neccesary? Maybe we could reduce 1000 to 500 if the price will be a problem to buy a MN or the network needs more MN to improve the network.
Reduce miners payment could be a good option 30/10/60 should be a incentive to increase the number of MN

You have to wean off coinbase rewards because they don't last forever. What they do is allow you time to establish.

+1 that.


The last change of reward was without the consensus of the community.
The time-forum is over for me,  Smiley


i think we need MN service with paid fee to increase MN income, so even if mining reward stopped MN still be profitable. i hope MN api can do that

"...I suspect we need a better incentive for users to run nodes instead of relying solely on altruism...",  satoshi@vistomail.com
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smoothie
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LEALANA Monero Physical Silver Coins


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October 09, 2015, 12:28:58 AM

link: http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=a_massive_investigation_of_instamines_and_fastmines_for_the_top_alt_coins


Quote
Darkcoin
derived from Quark
type of algorithm: blake, bmw, groestl, keccak, jh, stein
PoW and PoS
The following data and time stamps were collected from the Darkcoin blockchain 37).

Block 1: 2014-01-19 Time: 3:54:41
Block 1000 : 2014-01-19 Time: 4:33:39
Block 2000: 2014-01-19 Time: 06:25:47
Block 3000: 2014-01-19 Time: 09:10:16
Block 3250: 2014-01-19 Time: 11:22:11
Looking at this data, we see that Darkcoin was mined with 500 DRK generated per block from the get go. From block 1 to at least block 3250, according to their blockchain, they were still producing 500 coins each block. The transition from 500 to 277 coins per block occurs between 3250 and 3500 but this author did not see the necessity of getting the exact moment of halving. Simple math shows that 3250 blocks multiplied by 500 coins a block is 1,625,000 Darkcoins created between the times of 3:54 and 11:22 on January 19th, 2014. As of today there are around 4,300,000 DRK in existence, making this a pretty hefty instamine. The Darkcoin website expects around 22,000,000 DRK to be created. That means in less than 8 hours, almost 5% of the Darkcoins that ever will be created spawned in that 1/3 of a day. It's safe to say Darkcoin has left it's investors in the dark on this one.

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toknormal
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October 09, 2015, 12:30:01 AM



You can't build a system based on price speculation. But sometimes you have no choice.

The issue is one of SLA. If you build a network that can handle 30% of the global payments, and then growth reaches a plateau, then you risk destablising the network as masses of people cash out their nodes. 

Indeed. But the principle of a supporting a currency reserve market needs to be sustained in a way that the market will support.

An investor who puts their money into the Dash reserve market will simply work off an ROI equation that looks like this (in principle):

Gain=[Capital sum invested x Interest] - Number of masternodes required to deploy the full capital value.

What this means is that by lowering the collateral, you increase the cost of deploying a given amount of coins in the reserve market and securing a return on them. Right now I only need to deploy 1 masternode to get a return on 1000 Dash. WIth a 500 collateral I need to deploy 2. That's a PITA for an investor so it becomes less attractive. But if the dollar value doubles then it becomes more attractive again.
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October 09, 2015, 12:32:43 AM


LoL.

I wonder what Fontsize smoothie's gonna be using when XMR hits 0.0001. We'll need a whole page to accommodate just one of his posts.
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October 09, 2015, 12:33:07 AM

Dash mentioned on The Daily Decrypt

(1:20 min)

https://youtu.be/rwWTWLX2K6k?t=1m8s

 Wink

Please share:
https://twitter.com/AnonUpdatesNews/status/652283226833063936

Support the Arts .....>
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Lebubar
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October 09, 2015, 01:18:03 AM



You are boring Trolleros, please change the disk. Or (if possible) check your thread if anything new there..O nothing... Let's check coinmarketcap. O.o 38 cents 16th.. Well continue post here sorry.
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October 09, 2015, 01:31:38 AM

For anyone interested in AdamWhite's real motivation for scam-trolling the Dash thread every day for the last 8 months, you can check his deleted posts from the Monero Speculation thread:

"im in this coin for the long haul. I've exchanged all my alts for XMR."

https://bitcointa.lk/threads/ann-mro-monero-a-coin-with-strong-privacy-based-on-cryptonote-technology.304375/page-509#post-7491079

Yup, it's a Monero Troll.

(A big one too, something like ~500 "Scam!" accusations posts on his competitor, i.e. Dash, threads, that's commitment.)

EDIT: If you look, he's deleted all posts relating to his Monero investments on BCT.  Guess he didn't know they are saved out there on the internets....


Great find.
and don't forget....

Who is Adam Smith White and why is he so angry all the time?
Months ago he lost several thousand dollars when Darkcoin/DASH bought the name rights to dashcoin. He had all his eggs in one basket and went all in.


Remember this...
Wink

A little lunchtime tail.









[

DASH = Digital Cash         FAQ          DASHTALK        DashForceNews
MasterMined710
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October 09, 2015, 01:32:55 AM

'Monero Guy'



This is their legacy.
I found the "Scumbag Steve"-hat to be a perfect match Grin

Fitting

DASH = Digital Cash         FAQ          DASHTALK        DashForceNews
MasterMined710
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October 09, 2015, 01:35:42 AM


The cool thing is Evan never gets his feathers ruffled (well, unless he's excited about code, LOL) and is always nice and polite.

Agreed. In that vein, it might be useful to address the five latest troll-claims prominently in the OP and patiently point newbies there every time the trolls attack.
There is some reason the trolls keep pounding away here even though most of us have them on Ignore. People suggest they are targeting newbies, and that certainly might be the case although it seems that most of the newbie post action here is from troll puppet hit and run accounts. Maybe the real newbies lurk and read for a long time before wading in, in which case the trolls might actually have an audience to justify their amazing time investment.

A partly-baked draft of the kind of "permanent" rebuttal I mean - I'm sure the team can do it better:

1. See Evan's approach of pointing out what happened re the instamine (over and over and over) - it is what it is, and newbies can accept it or walk away - there is no coercion to use the coin (unlike fiat).

2. The MNs give an incentive to hold more - that is very different from "an unfair advantage to large holders". Anyone at all can join the MN (partial) owner club, whether or not they have 1000 or more coins. The concept is analogous to the now-archaic practice of banks paying interest for the use of your money - the network pays MN owners for their investment. Demonizing this practice is quite a stretch!

3. The claim that MNs are not decentralized is a semantic trick, and the implied "be afraid, be very afraid" element is a psychological trick. Consider - the American acronym-agencies allegedly spy on anything and everything. There is no particular reason to think they pay more attention to Amazon AWS than to anything else. That said, increased diversity is of course wise. As for semantic trickery, there is but one planet Earth (centralized), one Internet (centralized), one group of Dash users (centralized), blah blah. Centralization is in the eye of the beholder, but Dash grows more decentralized every day.

4. This is another "be afraid" ploy, but it is worth thinking about. The claim is that if you hold a MN (or a portion of one?) you might be harassed by future AML laws in some jurisdiction or other. True - you might - there is no way to know what witch-hunts may appear in the future. Now what - what follows from that? It is dangerous to get out of bed in the morning. It is also dangerous to remain in bed. In any case, the troll-claim here (mixing is bad) is contradictory to troll-claim 5 (not mixing is bad).

5. The "mixing is slow" claim is a useful improvement tip. It is semantically loaded though - "slow" compared to what? Regardless, it is used to assert the consequent that mixing is not the default (true, I think) and that therefore fungibility is an issue (true, I think). I seem to remember seeing suggestions for this issue such as "keep mixing running in background", but I haven't paid close enough attention to the details. I'm sure the team is working on it though.
 

Like this?:


    Latest Clients: 12.0.55 Dash Release - see Downloads section below.

    Introduction To Dash:





    Getting Started Guide

    Dash Video Series:





















    Learn More About Dash

    Miscellaneous:









    Looking to stay Updated ?
    Please join our mailing list! (Don't worry, we won't spam you.)

    Software development donations: XpAy7r5RVdGLnnjWNKuB9EUDiJ5Tje9GZ8


    Instamine and other complaints:

    1. The "Instamine": Please see "The Birth of Darkcoin"(now Dash), and this interview on dashdot for more information and points of view people have about the "instamine".  The first 24 hours of what was then called Xcoin had mistakes caused by an excited developer who wanted to get going, who was working a full time job and getting little sleep. Once the dust settled, everyone on board the project voted to continue despite the error.

    2. Masternode owners have "unfair advantage":  The MNs are rewarded for holding coins and running a node that services the network.  Anyone with 1000 coins can run a Masternode and take part in the proceeds.  Anyone who doesn't have the full amount of investment needed can join one of many jointly owned Masternodes via a service or trusted group of friends.  Either way, this system benefits all Dash users as well as investors in that it encourages the holding of coins (reduces volatility), secures the network and offers invaluable services.

    3. "Masternodes are centralized":  Masternodes are owned and run by hundreds of people and the ownership of Masternodes and Masternode network is growing daily, as can be seen by people announcing their first, second, third, etc... Masternode in the forums as well as the Masternode count climbing on the network.  Although Masternode owners are entitled to their privacy, we have been able to tell where these people are using service providers.  And although at first, many choose to use a familiar and established companies, namely Amazon, the first 6 months or so, the extravagant cost of that particular company and others like it as well as word of mouth have diversified the locations of Masternodes and their service providers; not just in the USA, but all over the world.  Currently, Dash has 60% the number of full, dedicated nodes that Bitcoin has with only about 1% of it's market cap.  In comparison, Dash is far more secure.

    4. "Mixing makes you look like a criminal":  This is another "be afraid" ploy, but it is worth thinking about. The claim is that if you hold a MN (or a portion of one?) you might be harassed by future AML laws in some jurisdiction or other. True - you might - there is no way to know what witch-hunts may appear in the future. Now what - what follows from that? It is dangerous to get out of bed in the morning. It is also dangerous to remain in bed. In any case, the claim here (mixing is bad) is contradictory to claim 5 (not mixing is bad).
    [/list]
    Thanks for posting. I almost missed it with all the trolls posting instamine spam.

    DASH = Digital Cash         FAQ          DASHTALK        DashForceNews
    hogwild
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    October 09, 2015, 01:55:53 AM

    ...
    In this video Evan  explains decentralized oracles, is a must watch to understand subquorums.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGh43BQrxK0

    Quick and possibly daft question on the method for selecting the 10 masternodes. The 10 nodes to handle a transaction are selected by the 10 nearest transaction IDs for the 1000 Dash transaction needed to set up the masternode (I think). Is that vulnerable to the malleability issues Bitcoin is seeing at the mo? ie. could transaction IDs be modified to direct to a small number of malicious masternodes?



    Unless I'm mistaken, it's based off the block hash, not the transaction IDs.

    All security is inherited from the mining network, which basically is deterministically setting up the quorum system, in a way that is provable. For example when you use DAPI, it will do something like create a transaction from Xaddr1 to Xaddr2 for 10 DASH. You then get back your command, a result status and all of the signatures from the quorum participants. You as the end user will know what quorum is activated for that node already, so you can tell if they're lying.

    In terms of scalability, if we have 3300 masternodes and a quorum size of 10, that means we can handle 330 requests at once. If the average time per request is about 100 ms, that means we can do 3300 requests per second. The estimate is based on the fact that the network is also doing maintenance at all times (propagating blocks, shard updates, syncing clients, etc), so I'm guessing ~50% of a fully utilized network will go to other activities. Therefore we end up with 1650 requests per second.

    Also we're going to aim for your average every day user, so we're talking just a few requests per month. So how many users can we support if they use 15 requests per month? 86400*1650*30/15 = 285,120,000. Ok, 285 million, that's pretty good.

    What about reducing the collateral to 500 DASH? Now we have 6600 masternodes and can handle 570 million users. Isn't the masternode count going up anyway? Yep. That number should hit about 700M about when we launch. This is why it says 500-1500 tx per second, I guess that should say "requests per second" because it's not really accurate. Also the 700M should be a range also, that's the high end, the low end is 285M for current Dash requirements.

    I've done a lot of guesswork to figure out these numbers, we'll see how close I am when we start seeing some serious adoption. Either way the system is built to scale with adoption in a way nothing else can, it should be pretty cool. I figure if we start to see a good deal of adoption and usage, we'll always either ask for more storage, processing power or reduce the collateral to split the network before it becomes an issue . They'll be good problems to have and we'll have lots of solutions available.

    It would be interesting to see the performance impact of running a higher transaction load.  I'm all new to this so I might have it wrong (starting both nodes, btc, Dash, in August).  I also run a bitcoin node and it is about 2x more network bandwidth (86 GiB for bitcoin for August vs 46 GiB dash), 15x more network connections (300+ for bitcoin vs 20 for Dash) and 4X more disk space (48 GB for bitcoin vs 14 GB for dash).  It looks like when problems happen on the bitcoin network (different attacks) my CPU and memory shoot way up but otherwise it seems similar to Dash.  While the rawmempoolinfo seems to be much higher on bitcoin (1000s vs singles in dash) I don't yet have a good enough understanding how that factors in to performance or if it matters. 

    If Dash started to get to the same usage as bitcoin I would guess that specs for many of the MNs would need to increase (not sure if Raspberry Pi which some MN are running could handle it).  Would a VPS charge more?  Increased transactions would probably lead to less decentralization as only those who could afford the costs could pay for it (that is if they are holding the MN remuneration for speculation).  Similar to the problem that is seen in the decline of the current bitcoin nodes, though of course there isn't any compensation for running one. 
    eB101
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    October 09, 2015, 04:11:11 AM

    So many great things going on here, and being worked on. Could Dash be a contender of the fastest or most scalable crypto? (measured in possible TPS)
    https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1203228.0
    It would be cool to hear the Dash experts there.
    iCEBREAKER
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    BCash. LOL


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    October 09, 2015, 04:19:35 AM


    I wonder what Fontsize smoothie's gonna be using


    smoothie's font size isn't your problem.

    This is your problem:

    Quote
    in less than 8 hours, almost 5% of the Darkcoins that ever will be created spawned in that 1/3 of a day.

    It's safe to say Darkcoin has left its investors in the dark on this one.

    #r3kt


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    Monero
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    whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
    David Chaum 1996
    "Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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    Probleminfected
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    October 09, 2015, 04:36:31 AM


    I wonder what Fontsize smoothie's gonna be using


    smoothie's font size isn't your problem.

    This is your problem:

    Quote
    in less than 8 hours, almost 5% of the Darkcoins that ever will be created spawned in that 1/3 of a day.

    It's safe to say Darkcoin has left its investors in the dark on this one.

    #r3kt

    Some of us nobodies were there, you jealous?
    valentino008
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    October 09, 2015, 05:26:43 AM


    I wonder what Fontsize smoothie's gonna be using


    smoothie's font size isn't your problem.

    This is your problem:

    Quote
    in less than 8 hours, almost 5% of the Darkcoins that ever will be created spawned in that 1/3 of a day.

    It's safe to say Darkcoin has left its investors in the dark on this one.

    #r3kt

    The explanation 1 more time: http://dashdot.io/alpha/?page_id=118
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    October 09, 2015, 06:12:31 AM

    I've done a lot of guesswork to figure out these numbers, we'll see how close I am when we start seeing some serious adoption. Either way the system is built to scale with adoption in a way nothing else can, it should be pretty cool. I figure if we start to see a good deal of adoption and usage, we'll always either ask for more storage, processing power or reduce the collateral to split the network before it becomes an issue . They'll be good problems to have and we'll have lots of solutions available.
    It would be interesting to see the performance impact of running a higher transaction load.  I'm all new to this so I might have it wrong (starting both nodes, btc, Dash, in August).  I also run a bitcoin node and it is about 2x more network bandwidth (86 GiB for bitcoin for August vs 46 GiB dash), 15x more network connections (300+ for bitcoin vs 20 for Dash) and 4X more disk space (48 GB for bitcoin vs 14 GB for dash).  It looks like when problems happen on the bitcoin network (different attacks) my CPU and memory shoot way up but otherwise it seems similar to Dash.  While the rawmempoolinfo seems to be much higher on bitcoin (1000s vs singles in dash) I don't yet have a good enough understanding how that factors in to performance or if it matters. 

    If Dash started to get to the same usage as bitcoin I would guess that specs for many of the MNs would need to increase (not sure if Raspberry Pi which some MN are running could handle it).  Would a VPS charge more?  Increased transactions would probably lead to less decentralization as only those who could afford the costs could pay for it (that is if they are holding the MN remuneration for speculation).  Similar to the problem that is seen in the decline of the current bitcoin nodes, though of course there isn't any compensation for running one. 
    Hogwild, here is a table of some of the differences in transaction speeds and sizes.

    DASH Metrics                                           DASH      Bitcoin
    Average Transaction Size                              1           0.85   KB
    Average Transactions per Day                    1500       110000  Transactions/Day
    Blockchain Size                                          1.4          47     GB
    Blockchain Growth                                      1.5         93.5   MB/Day
    Blockchain Update Speed/hr blocktime(TAO)  0.15         4.14    Sec/Hr
    Blockchain Download Speed                        0.417       0.941   MB/Sec

    The Bitcoin disk space(47GB) is more than just 4x that of Dash.  It actually is over 31x bigger than Dash disk space(1.4GB).  That is why the bitcoin client takes so long to catchup when it starts.  It downloads a ton of data and then verifies it.

    The Dash client does a lot more than a Bitcoin client.  Dash has budgets, darksend mixing, instantx, and voting to sync and manage between the clients and masternodes.  It is really not comparable to Bitcoin at this point.

    As for upgrading, the masternode network will adapt to what works best.  The biggest expense right now is not disk, cpu, or ram, but the IPV4 address cost.  Maybe we will move to IPV6 to save some server costs and improve performance.  The masternode count will constantly change based on earnings/cost to run.  With the voting system, it will be easy to fairly implement any changes needed.  This is far different than encouraging users to run no incentive Bitcoin nodes.

    I am really looking forward to the Dash Evolution Revolution.

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    ......SECURITY DECENTRALIZED...
    Walter_S
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    October 09, 2015, 07:25:20 AM

    What happens if we cut it in half?

    The collateral gets halved
    The reward gets halved
    Expenses remain the same

    Wouldn't expenses double ? For a given holding, you've got to run twice the number of nodes for the same return.


     No, because in essence a pro linux sys admin with semi-ninja skills can run 2 or more MN's from the same server.
     Though the point still stands for the majority at this point.

    I run 3 on each of my VPS from Vultr, would run more if they'd give me more IPs!  Tongue

    Walter
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    October 09, 2015, 07:26:08 AM

    Whenever evolution gets implemented we should create a budget item to "stress test" the new network to prove how many tps it can actually handle.
    illodin
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    October 09, 2015, 08:15:22 AM

    In hind site,  this model should be copied by all cryptos so they have the funds to fuel real innovation and full time developers.   Great stroke of luck.  

    This is in fact done by many cryptos. It even has a name: premine.

    Question to you: how can it fund development like you describe since it was allegedly distributed on the market at ridiculous prices?

    I'm not him, but I hope you don't mind me answering anyway.

    It can, if for example (not an exhaustive list)

     - the core team bought the coins cheaply from the market because there were a lot of coins being distributed on the market at ridiculous prices
     - people who bought coins at ridiculous prices decided to get involved to make their investment more valuable by joining the core team
     - people who bought coins at ridiculous prices decided to fund development
    GilAlexander
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    October 09, 2015, 09:36:59 AM

    Currently the true ROI is about 14%:

    (blocks per day * avg reward * mn share / masternodes * days) = (reward at the end of the year)
    576*6*.5/3270*365  = 192.88 DASH (19.2% of 1000 DASH)

    Let's say a server costs $10 a month, so true ROI is about 144 DASH per year (14.4% of 1000 DASH).

    ---

    What happens if we cut it in half?

    The collateral gets halved
    The reward gets halved
    Expenses remain the same
    Overall return goes down
    Node count should nearly double (slightly lower because of the reduced reward)

    (blocks per day * avg reward * mn share / masternodes * days) = (reward at the end of the year)
    576*6*.5/6490*365  = 97 DASH  (19.6% of 500 DASH)
     ( notice it's not double 3270, that would be 6540... it's lower)

    Let's say a server costs $10 a month, so true ROI is about 49.18 DASH per year (14.6% of 500 DASH)

    All things being equal, it's just supply and demand working themselves out in something like a bond market. The market demands a return on average currently of about 14% after expenses, the idea is it carries over no matter what collateral is required. Nodes that are allocated before should be allocated after, even if the user decides he doesn't want to do it, that would raise the ROI on the market, which would drive people to setup more nodes, getting us back to where we're at now.

    That help? It's a tad confusing

    Thread looks like not all agree.
    Why not to use decentralised voting to figure out the opinion of the community at this time?
    masterNoder
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    October 09, 2015, 10:05:47 AM


    Thread looks like not all agree.
    Why not to use decentralised voting to figure out the opinion of the community at this time?

    Sure, but before the voting starts, the community must debate ad nauseam the subject, in order that each voter understands what are the pros and cons, having so formed his own convictions on the matter.
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