[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[Otoh]

If anyone is interested in the investment opportunities of crypto and their legal aspects for trusts, then there's a three day roadshow organized by a Channel Islands law firm in early July, details in the meet ups thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1098311

London July 1st, Guernsey July 2nd & Jersey July 3rd.

I'll be attending the Guernsey one on July 2nd with some friends who work in the trustee biz and will be bringing DASH to their attention.

I think i have crossed paths with Maitland chambers. Do they specialise in tax planning?

I'm not familiar with them as yet, seems they're high powered London city firm and handle a wide range of cases, including personal tax, trusts and probate.

http://www.legal500.com/firms/9532/9532

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[TaoOfSaatoshi]

Greg Maxwell Criticizes Altcoins for Distracting Bitcoin Development

http://moneyandtech.com/greg-maxwell-criticizes-altcoins-distracting-bitcoin-development/
 

..."There seems no point of adding more altcoins to the table, the opinion has been shared widely before Maxwell demonstrated his opinions. However, there are still many who are actually working towards the overall development of the cryptocurrency sector. For instance: Dash, aka Darkcoin, has literally improved privacy quo by introducing transaction obfuscation features, a thing that Maxwell himself discussed during his Sidechain Elements presentation."

Hahahahaha!

https://twitter.com/taoofsatoshi/status/613759538739707904

Long live Dash!

[noobtrader]

i wonder if i can get my 3rd masternode running before dash worth 100usd

Greg Maxwell Criticizes Altcoins for Distracting Bitcoin Development

http://moneyandtech.com/greg-maxwell-criticizes-altcoins-distracting-bitcoin-development/
 

..."There seems no point of adding more altcoins to the table, the opinion has been shared widely before Maxwell demonstrated his opinions. However, there are still many who are actually working towards the overall development of the cryptocurrency sector. For instance: Dash, aka Darkcoin, has literally improved privacy quo by introducing transaction obfuscation features, a thing that Maxwell himself discussed during his Sidechain Elements presentation."

Hahahahaha!

https://twitter.com/taoofsatoshi/status/613759538739707904

Long live Dash!

[HinnomTX]

Greg Maxwell Criticizes Altcoins for Distracting Bitcoin Development

http://moneyandtech.com/greg-maxwell-criticizes-altcoins-distracting-bitcoin-development/
 

..."There seems no point of adding more altcoins to the table, the opinion has been shared widely before Maxwell demonstrated his opinions. However, there are still many who are actually working towards the overall development of the cryptocurrency sector. For instance: Dash, aka Darkcoin, has literally improved privacy quo by introducing transaction obfuscation features, a thing that Maxwell himself discussed during his Sidechain Elements presentation."

The article concludes:
"With Bitcoin gaining mainstream adoption, the popularity of both good and bad altcoins have dried up anyways. Maxwell’s latest comments simply remind us of that."

LOL. As if Bitcoin is destined to enjoy its monopoly forever. If anything, the untamed wild west of cryptocurrency basically guarantees there will be superior solutions to Bitcoin. Two years on, they can't even figure out how to reach consensus on raising the block size limit.

So I'll simply re-state the obvious: Dash's blockchain based governance and development funding systems will prove to be very disruptive.

[TanteStefana2]

Greg Maxwell Criticizes Altcoins for Distracting Bitcoin Development

http://moneyandtech.com/greg-maxwell-criticizes-altcoins-distracting-bitcoin-development/
 

..."There seems no point of adding more altcoins to the table, the opinion has been shared widely before Maxwell demonstrated his opinions. However, there are still many who are actually working towards the overall development of the cryptocurrency sector. For instance: Dash, aka Darkcoin, has literally improved privacy quo by introducing transaction obfuscation features, a thing that Maxwell himself discussed during his Sidechain Elements presentation."

The article concludes:
"With Bitcoin gaining mainstream adoption, the popularity of both good and bad altcoins have dried up anyways. Maxwell’s latest comments simply remind us of that."

LOL. As if Bitcoin is destined to enjoy its monopoly forever. If anything, the untamed wild west of cryptocurrency basically guarantees there will be superior solutions to Bitcoin. Two years on, they can't even figure out how to reach consensus on raising the block size limit.

So I'll simply re-state the obvious: Dash's blockchain based governance and development funding systems will prove to be very disruptive.

Thing is, Satoshi Nakamoto had a strong philosophical reason for starting Bitcoin.  He wanted to take the power away from the government and banks to manipulate the finances of the world.  G. Maxwell is a cryptographer.  He has no philosophical (or in that case, ethical) reason to want to achieve that holy grail of digital cash. It's obvious if you look at the direction Bitcoin has gone these past 2 years.  Basically governmental compliance and coordinating collaborating with Banks and the stock market.

Bitcoin, instead of becoming a tool for the freedom of people, has become an instrument of the establishment.  Altcoins are the only hope for Satoshi Nakamoto's original vision.  And we are a threat to the "system" of which Bitcoin is now a part of.

That being said, Bitcoin is also a great gateway for people to enter the system, and pop into altcoins.  It's success will only help alts.

[busterzzz]

James Simons Full Length Interview.
You'll enjoy the one hour spent watching this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNznD9hMEh0

James Harris Simons has been described as "the world's smartest billionaire", amassing a fortune through the clever use of mathematics and computers. He is now a renowned philanthropist.

[pille]

Github is on fire

[bluebit25]

Dash is in Bitsquare!!!

https://vimeo.com/131086362

[coins101]

If anyone is interested in the investment opportunities of crypto and their legal aspects for trusts, then there's a three day roadshow organized by a Channel Islands law firm in early July, details in the meet ups thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1098311

London July 1st, Guernsey July 2nd & Jersey July 3rd.

I'll be attending the Guernsey one on July 2nd with some friends who work in the trustee biz and will be bringing DASH to their attention.

I think i have crossed paths with Maitland chambers. Do they specialise in tax planning?

I'm not familiar with them as yet, seems they're high powered London city firm and handle a wide range of cases, including personal tax, trusts and probate.

http://www.legal500.com/firms/9532/9532

Actually, they are not a city firm, they are chambers for barristers. The chambers are formed by self-employed experts that lawyers go to for advice and to represent them in court.

If they help to structure something, it's usually pretty strong and can hold up to the latest legal precedents challenged in the courts by the tax authorities.

The good thing about these types of experts is that they would equally advise governments to represent them against tax evaders.  So they structure stuff knowing what both sides of the fence would challenge.

[aleix]

Dash is in Bitsquare!!!

https://vimeo.com/131086362

Of course  

The main dev is a good friend, member of the Barcelona Bitcoin Community. He is doing an amazing work with Bitsquare.  For Dash  (and the other currencies) this decentralized exchange will be a huge improve.

I'll keep you posted.

[TanteStefana2]

Dash is in Bitsquare!!!

https://vimeo.com/131086362

Sorry, I'm still very new, and a slow learner, but is this a program for an interface for escrow payments?  Oh!  I just noticed above, it's an exchange, very cool!

[rentahash]

Greg Maxwell Criticizes Altcoins for Distracting Bitcoin Development

http://moneyandtech.com/greg-maxwell-criticizes-altcoins-distracting-bitcoin-development/
 

..."There seems no point of adding more altcoins to the table, the opinion has been shared widely before Maxwell demonstrated his opinions. However, there are still many who are actually working towards the overall development of the cryptocurrency sector. For instance: Dash, aka Darkcoin, has literally improved privacy quo by introducing transaction obfuscation features, a thing that Maxwell himself discussed during his Sidechain Elements presentation."

Pathetic story of an dying empire...
Long live DASH!

[Minotaur26]

Dash is in Bitsquare!!!

https://vimeo.com/131086362

Of course  

The main dev is a good friend, member of the Barcelona Bitcoin Community. He is doing an amazing work with Bitsquare.  For Dash  (and the other currencies) this decentralized exchange will be a huge improve.

I'll keep you posted.

That is cool, I hope there is volume on decentralized exchanges soon.

[Otoh]

...

Actually, they are not a city firm, they are chambers for barristers. The chambers are formed by self-employed experts that lawyers go to for advice and to represent them in court.

If they help to structure something, it's usually pretty strong and can hold up to the latest legal precedents challenged in the courts by the tax authorities.

The good thing about these types of experts is that they would equally advise governments to represent them against tax evaders.  So they structure stuff knowing what both sides of the fence would challenge.

Many thanks coins101, good to be well informed about who's sponsoring these events, much appreciated.

[AlexGR]

Greg Maxwell Criticizes Altcoins for Distracting Bitcoin Development

http://moneyandtech.com/greg-maxwell-criticizes-altcoins-distracting-bitcoin-development/
 

..."There seems no point of adding more altcoins to the table, the opinion has been shared widely before Maxwell demonstrated his opinions. However, there are still many who are actually working towards the overall development of the cryptocurrency sector. For instance: Dash, aka Darkcoin, has literally improved privacy quo by introducing transaction obfuscation features, a thing that Maxwell himself discussed during his Sidechain Elements presentation."

I read the article and he's not wrong in his altcoin criticism. Most altcoins are crap, p&d's, scams where the dev disappears after a week with the premine or the ICO, etc etc.

In early '14 there was the impression that alts are going to take a sizable chunk off bitcoin, but precisely due to the crappy nature of most altcoins, Bitcoin has solidified its place and the thought of a new altcoin making bitcoin obsolete, sounds like a joke right now. The moto "this is the next bitcoin" has been used for so many p&d's that it's not even funny...

Those coins that have not been delivering something of importance, are doomed to get annihilated from the scene.

DASH is going the right way with privacy and instant transactions, but it needs robust IP obfuscation in an easy to use manner for less tech-savy people, to improve its "core business" of privacy.

[coins101]

Greg Maxwell Criticizes Altcoins for Distracting Bitcoin Development

http://moneyandtech.com/greg-maxwell-criticizes-altcoins-distracting-bitcoin-development/
 

..."There seems no point of adding more altcoins to the table, the opinion has been shared widely before Maxwell demonstrated his opinions. However, there are still many who are actually working towards the overall development of the cryptocurrency sector. For instance: Dash, aka Darkcoin, has literally improved privacy quo by introducing transaction obfuscation features, a thing that Maxwell himself discussed during his Sidechain Elements presentation."

I read the article and he's not wrong in his altcoin criticism. Most altcoins are crap, p&d's, scams where the dev disappears after a week with the premine or the ICO, etc etc.

In early '14 there was the impression that alts are going to take a sizable chunk off bitcoin, but precisely due to the crappy nature of most altcoins, Bitcoin has solidified its place and the thought of a new altcoin making bitcoin obsolete, sounds like a joke right now. The moto "this is the next bitcoin" has been used for so many p&d's that it's not even funny...

Those coins that have not been delivering something of importance, are doomed to get annihilated from the scene.

DASH is going the right way with privacy and instant transactions, but it needs robust IP obfuscation in an easy to use manner for less tech-savy people, to improve its "core business" of privacy.

I've been reading the sidechains white paper (slow Wed). It pretty interesting.

The issue I can't quite resolve is that Sidechains enable the creation of altcoins:

Subsidy. A sidechain could also issue its own separate native currency as reward, effectively
forming an altcoin. However, these coins would have a free-floating value and as a result
would not solve the volatility and market fragmentation issues with altcoins.

Now, this made my two brain cells go loopy for a while - what if altcoins used the sidechains open source code, to create their own bitcoin sidechains.  Wait one minute, what if a sidechain altcoin, used sidechains to create it own altcoins.

Clearly I'm talking nonsense. I do need to read this paper a few more times and digest it. But I can't get over the answer to altcoins is a new system that makes them easier to create?

Certainly, some of the sidechain projects in the paper are very interesting. There is even talk about making Monero a sidechain, but that might mean Monero investors burning their coins and giving up their 'investor, one day we will go to the moon' line of thinking. Not sure that would wash.

But its still early days for sidechains. Definitely worth watching, testing and dipping a toe in their waters.

[TanteStefana2]

Greg Maxwell Criticizes Altcoins for Distracting Bitcoin Development

http://moneyandtech.com/greg-maxwell-criticizes-altcoins-distracting-bitcoin-development/
 

..."There seems no point of adding more altcoins to the table, the opinion has been shared widely before Maxwell demonstrated his opinions. However, there are still many who are actually working towards the overall development of the cryptocurrency sector. For instance: Dash, aka Darkcoin, has literally improved privacy quo by introducing transaction obfuscation features, a thing that Maxwell himself discussed during his Sidechain Elements presentation."

I read the article and he's not wrong in his altcoin criticism. Most altcoins are crap, p&d's, scams where the dev disappears after a week with the premine or the ICO, etc etc.

In early '14 there was the impression that alts are going to take a sizable chunk off bitcoin, but precisely due to the crappy nature of most altcoins, Bitcoin has solidified its place and the thought of a new altcoin making bitcoin obsolete, sounds like a joke right now. The moto "this is the next bitcoin" has been used for so many p&d's that it's not even funny...

Those coins that have not been delivering something of importance, are doomed to get annihilated from the scene.

DASH is going the right way with privacy and instant transactions, but it needs robust IP obfuscation in an easy to use manner for less tech-savy people, to improve its "core business" of privacy.

I completely agree, but from hanging out in the testnet thread, I have learned this stuff isn't all that easy to solve.  All the services have to play nice with eachother, and solutions that were first thought up, are often revised and made better, and simpler.  And all that takes time.  I starting to think that it's going to take another year to completely finish the foundation of DASH so that it's rock solid and impenetrable (some of that time will be spent fixing any holes) 

Understand, I don't think there is any safety issue, I'm more talking about people finding ways to play the system to take from the miner or masternode rewards.  I think actual transactions and functioning of DASH is just as safe as Bitcoin, after all we're using the same Bitcoin core code.  It's all the new code that will have to be vetted, and that takes time.  But the development team is making great progress.  Sometimes a few details have to be resolved in the next version, but there is always progress with this team!

[toknormal]

I've been reading the sidechains white paper (slow Wed). It pretty interesting.

I read it as well and also found it interesting - in fact quite awesome in terms of technology.

Despite that, I just can't square the business case for it. Why would you want to technologically fix the value of an altcoin (in terms of bitcoin) rather than allow the market to set its value ?

I realise that the stated basis is to protect the holder from the "risk and volatility" of freely floating markets, but think this through and you'll find it doesn't. The reason it doesn't is because it doesn't protect the holder from fluctuations in supply and demand (which is what price is simply a representation of).

For example, lets say demand for liquidity in a particular economic sector supported by a sidechain rises. Since the sidechain is pegged to bitcoin, the only way to meet the demand is to pump more bitcoin into the sidechain which will put pressure on the price of the whole of bitcoin. (That's actually the whole idea of sidechains).

But now you've simply transmitted a genuine economic demand in one sector to all other sectors, where it manifests itself as "unwanted volatility" - exactly the thing you were trying to avoid in the first place. You've shoved up the price of all other sidechains even though there was no justification for it in their sectors. (The words "Germany", "Greece" and "Euro" spring to mind). In particular, if one sidechain becomes dominant (not an unlikely scenario) then you potentially render the rest of the coin supply almost unusable due to the amount of commercial buffeting from the dominant sector.

The architects of sidechains IMO have taken critical economic concepts that are essential to the effective functioning of money and just tossed them on the scrapheap as 'unwanted volatility' as if thats something that you can simply code out of the system.

Hey ! That's unwanted volatility - we'll just code that out of the system

The arrogance (or, to be more kind, "innocence") of this approach kind of leaves me a bit dumbfounded since it comes from highly respected developers. However, I can understand it because I work in the software industry and it's normal that if you let the programmer solve the business problem, they'll usually do it from a "programming point of view", thinking that that's "obviously" the business point of view as well when in fact, nothing could be farther from the truth.

Does it not occur to people designing this crazy logic to ask themselves why no other market works this way ? i.e. why doesn't the government just peg the price of hamburgers to save people from needless "risk and volatility". Why doesn't it peg the price of wheat or airline tickets ? (Answer: because someone will always turn up with a barbecue in their back garden, ignore the peg and deliver a correctly priced hamburger. 'Correctly' in this case meaning one that allows supply to stabilize against demand without causing volatility in unrelated markets).

By inventing the concept of sidechains in the first place, the need for diversity in cryptocurrencies has been acknowledged. We don't even need to debate that any more. The question is, what crazy justification can there be for creating such a Frankensteinian monetary monster (FMM) ? It totally ruins the fungibility of bitcoin for a start because a section of the supply has to be locked up and "transmuted" in order to populate a sidechain. From that point on, your bitcoin trades as an altcoin on a sidechain, so it's in no way, shape or form "fungible" from either other bitcoins nor coins from other bitcoin sidechains.

There are more issues with the monetary analysis concepts behind this approach - specifically in the confidential transactions stuff which borrows many concepts from the "obfuscation" technologies like cryptonote.

In one of G Maxwell's talks, he makes the remark that "privacy has always been an important property of a money like good". (I paraphrase because I haven't got the exact quote to hand).

This is just plain wrong IMO. Privacy has never been a part of any "money-like-good". He is confusing "money" with the process of "accounting for money". Imagine if you somehow tried to bake privacy into precious metals - what would you do ? Disguise the colour so that it could only be identified by atomic mass or something ? Fiat "money" is backed by debt. Debt is backed by future economic contribution, so future economic contribution is the "base money" in question here. How would you "bake" privacy into that ? It's simply not a compatible concept.

Bank accounts are private, but they are just "accounts" - numbers in a bookkeeping system that represent a call on a portion of the debt base generated by the commercial banking sector. The bookeeping for gold is also private. So privacy comes from OUTSIDE of the "money-like-good", not from it itself and any attempt to bake privacy into it will simply diminish that good's value. (In this respect, if a confidential sidechain operated as merely a bookeeping system, it might have a more relevant role. However, cryptocurrency is the re-invention of BASE MONEY. You can't blur the distinction between the monetary medium itself and the accounting processes that support it without adversley impacting its value).

Fungibility, on the other hand, IS an essential part of money. This is where Dash scores way higher than all this obfuscation nonsense that's going on in sidechains and cryptonote. Just to remind people, the cryptonote (approach) was designed in the 1990's to support fiat bank accounts - i.e. it was designed for bookkeeping systems which tracked some other money. The system was not the money and it was only any use because at that time there was a bank in the loop. Now, with obfuscation, you've just got the transport mechanism without the bank.

Dash is the only technology in this space (apart from 3rd party bitcoin mixers) that address fungibility directly without confusing it with concepts more appropriate to confidential bookkeeping. It does not attempt to "hide" the money because it is not a bookkeeping system and it's not its job. Instead it massively improves on bitcoin's fungibility directly, with no loss of visibility.

This is the correct approach from a monetary point of view, IMO, because it implements a true "cash paradigm" on which true financial privacy strategies can in turn be based.

[coins101]

+101

There is a reason very few firms over 50 years old are still in business. Things change, some can't change or don't want or know how to change.

Start ups become mainstream, the pace of change continues, more so in technology sectors.

Maybe that will be side chains biggest contribution, allowing bitcoin to stay relevant for longer.

Unless there are mechanisms to allow side chains to flourish and reward the innovators, there is no motivation to invest time in creating value that will only benefit early adopters and those with means to invest heavily.

Need to think about this some more.

[TanteStefana2]

I've been reading the sidechains white paper (slow Wed). It pretty interesting.

I read it as well and also found it interesting - in fact quite awesome in terms of technology.

***click link, it's all good stuff but long***

I started reading your comment, and thought "this is Toknormal" and yup it was, LOL.  As usual, your insights are amazing.  You're my #1 teacher here!