[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[Otoh]

you all talk like that, and in one moment when flash buy starts you just close this thread and forget what you said earlier

ok Otoh have 50% of MN's ... ok ... why dont you drive price up where otoh will say HMM im gonna sell 20% of my MN's, then later another 20% ... then he will have only 10% and then you would be happy? yes?

We have to trust, what he says? People become reach rich not because they say their real plans.

I have a lot of MN, but it's well under 20% of the total and a good few of those I hold and manage for others.

If you wish people to read your posts then I'd recommend not posting a block of text, but discovering the wonder of paragraphs or spaces between the points that you wish to raise.

[wozzek23]

...

Hmm... so yet again one investor singularly influences the price and causing many to lose? (some can't withstand the loss, some need cash for private emergencies, some dislike manipulation...)
...

Do not put funds that you may need for emergencies into such a high risk vehicle as crypto

buying and selling is not manipulation, it is normal market operating

the market decides the price, I am a part of the market but only a small part of the whole

Come on, Richard - I am sure that you are fully aware how much respected member of a community you are (part of the respect comes, I'd guess out of awe that one single investor can have so much money invested into such a high risk vehicle) but if you, as a "small part of the market" can drive the price down - at will, since it was you who put a $2.00 "wall" and it was you who had cleared all small orders in between 0.01 and 0.009 and by doing what you're doing you're directly influencing the price, than that is a manipulation indeed.

In the fiat world where my investments are doing fine, we all hate "manipulations," high frequency trading that drives the price etc., so I wonder, why would I be tolerant toward bot operators on Cryptsy or even toward you when you could, as Tante said (not naming you) just few posts above, drive the price down to 0.001 at your will?

Your transparency and support for Darkcoin as it started are, needless to say, commendable, but if you are a market maker, what is the benefits, for the community, for the price's health? (all that nonsense that the price does not matter is just that, nonsense - many a stock destroyed a sound company when it was attacked by short sellers)

Like there's no "market" in the "real world" where all is fucking manipulated by the Fed, by the likes of GS and hedge funds HFT scum, there's no market in DASH where you totally dominate.

Do not get me wrong - I have nothing against what you do, this is how it is and I can either enter back now (I sold of of my DASH when I started to look at it not as a cheer-leader but as a prudent investor expecting a price drop) at sub 0.01 or wait or leave this game entirely and I am truly grateful to you for your transparency for it gives me more data to mull over pulling the trigger or not, but do not hide behind the "market" if you, to a great extend, sometimes and perhaps well too often for my taste, create the said market  

Having said that, my hat off to you, noble Sire.

[TanteStefana2]

otoh doesn't have that much Dash,nobody has 50%!  That's ridiculous.  He has a lot, quite a few have a lot, but together, even the top 10 people don't have 50%.  That is just FUD spreading and it is really getting silly.  Get the facts, research, calculate, and you'll see Dash has very good distribution.

And if you can't see that, fine, but stop it with the FUD and stupidity.

Also, I think otoh, who can say so if he wants, is not opening new masternodes anymore, he has a ton.  He's probably diversifying his investments.  Dash isn't his only interest.

[oblox]

I think, that price is going down because of one (several) persons own 50%+ of masternodes, so budgeting system is in almost one hands, so there is no real decentralization. In past, I thought, that budget money will be deducted from mined blocks (45% (miners) + 45% (masternodes) + 10% (budgets)) and load will be low, but now I see, that 5861 DASH was generated in the moment. P.S. Judging on voting results I see, that real masternode operators voted was around 100 persons maximum, and 1000+ vote is always decisive. As I said in past, who owns more masternodes can create more masternodes without new investments. Some people enjoy MN count rises, but I'm not. These new masternodes creates the same person who own 50% of existing masternodes and the most important - it costs no money for him. And now, he can control budgeting system, simulating decentralization and real voting. So, it's not wonderful, that DASH/BTC rate is falling, because project losses trust, I think, it's obvious. But somebody try to prove, that price falling doesn't matter. Last time, I began to suspect, that this project really was created to simply pump money from it, first: throw instamine, second: throw masternode system, third: throw budgets. I watch for project long time and I don't see any real promotion of it (especially seeing another projects promotion). Last months, market at all ceased to pay attention on DASH news.

Few points:
1. The budget Dash created isn't "new"... it's coins that would have been otherwise generated daily from each new block that are withheld and mined once a month as a "superblock". If there isn't enough proposals to cover all the Dash that would be withheld from normal mining, those coins cease to exist.
2. No one owns 50% of the masternodes, not even Otoh.
3. You continue to bitch about existing masternode owners being able to compound their earnings into new masternodes, how is that any different than any other capital project out there? Those with money will always make the most money. Inside crypto and outside of masternodes, it's no different than wealthy people stocking up on huge piles of POS coins and staking or buying enough hardware to continue to increase their proportional hash to the network.
4. Grow the fuck up and find a pair of stones--if price bothers you today, you are overextended in your position. Crypto is still very much speculative in nature.

[ReallyRedRum]

otoh doesn't have that much Dash,nobody has 50%!  That's ridiculous.  He has a lot, quite a few have a lot, but together, even the top 10 people don't have 50%.  That is just FUD spreading and it is really getting silly.  Get the facts, research, calculate, and you'll see Dash has very good distribution.

And if you can't see that, fine, but stop it with the FUD and stupidity.

Also, I think otoh, who can say so if he wants, is not opening new masternodes anymore, he has a ton.  He's probably diversifying his investments.  Dash isn't his only interest.

I completely agree. No way he has 50% anymore. He dumped at .025. 

[Otoh]

...

Hmm... so yet again one investor singularly influences the price and causing many to lose? (some can't withstand the loss, some need cash for private emergencies, some dislike manipulation...)
...

Do not put funds that you may need for emergencies into such a high risk vehicle as crypto

buying and selling is not manipulation, it is normal market operating

the market decides the price, I am a part of the market but only a small part of the whole

Come on, Richard - I am sure that you are fully aware how much respected member of a community you are (part of the respect comes, I'd guess out of awe that one single investor can have so much money invested into such a high risk vehicle) but if you, as a "small part of the market" can drive the price down - at will, since it was you who put a $2.00 "wall" and it was you who had cleared all small orders in between 0.01 and 0.009 and by doing what you're doing you're directly influencing the price, than that is a manipulation indeed.

In the fiat world where my investments are doing fine, we all hate "manipulations," high frequency trading that drives the price etc., so I wonder, why would I be tolerant toward bot operators on Cryptsy or even toward you when you could, as Tante said (not naming you) just few posts above, drive the price down to 0.001 at your will?

Your transparency and support for Darkcoin as it started are, needless to say, commendable, but if you are a market maker, what is the benefits, for the community, for the price's health? (all that nonsense that the price does not matter is just that, nonsense - many a stock destroyed a sound company when it was attacked by short sellers)

Like there's no "market" in the "real world" where all is fucking manipulated by the Fed, by the likes of GS and hedge funds HFT scum, there's no market in DASH where you totally dominate.

Do not get me wrong - I have nothing against what you do, this is how it is and I can either enter back now (I sold of of my DASH when I started to look at it not as a cheer-leader but as a prudent investor expecting a price drop) at sub 0.01 or wait or leave this game entirely and I am truly grateful to you for your transparency for it gives me more data to mull over pulling the trigger or not, but do not hide behind the "market" if you, to a great extend, sometimes and perhaps well too often for my taste, create the said market  

Having said that, my hat off to you, noble Sire.

Every single bid and ask influences the price, yes I make larger ones sometimes but to call that manipulation is really just your arbitrary judgement of what others are doing which is identical to you just on a larger scale, anyway it's how it is, glad that you enjoy the transparency at least.

[Sub-Ether]

you all talk like that, and in one moment when flash buy starts you just close this thread and forget what you said earlier

ok Otoh have 50% of MN's ... ok ... why dont you drive price up where otoh will say HMM im gonna sell 20% of my MN's, then later another 20% ... then he will have only 10% and then you would be happy? yes?

We have to trust, what he says? People become reach not because they say their real plans.

You are very quick to cast blame, there is nothing wrong with this project, I suggest you stop repeatadly looking at short term price fluctuations (I admit I do it, btw), the Dash team do not need to justify themselves to you because of small market movements.
Evan, and a number of the team(including myself) are going to Amsterdam, if you want to learn more , why not come along, I am sure we will all learn a number of things

[wozzek23]

Every single bid and ask influences the price, yes I make larger ones sometimes but to call that manipulation is really just your arbitrary judgement of what others are doing which is identical to you just on a larger scale, anyway it's how it is, glad that you enjoy the transparency at least.

Love semantics   ("A rose by any other name would smell as sweet," or "what the meaning of the word is is" approach are my favorites)

Manipulation or market moves according to your intention(s); it does not really matter. Your transparency, taken with a grain of salt (I am sure you'd recommend that approach also) is more than welcomed despite the sentiment. As a result of this overall discussion I halved my intended (future) percentage of DASH in my portfolio.

So Otoh decided to push the price down to 2$ and this is what is happening, and we are supposed to be happy for some reason?

[LiteMine]

So Otoh hedges a bit in the face of a declining price and then puts up a huge BUY wall and people are mad? He's willing to buy 16,000 DASH and support the price at some level, or am I missing something?

He COULD put in a monster sell wall and really fuck everything for his own gain, but I don't see that here.

Edit: Though if it was him that dumped multiple lots of 5k+ DASH in the last month, then I might feel a little different...

[italeffect]

Personally I'm loving these sale prices. What a great time to be accumulating Dash. Keep it going!

Edit: It's super annoying how long it takes to transfer BTC!

[wozzek23]

5) market anti-climax after yet another stunning release

Anti-climax?
What / when was the climax, pray?

[toknormal]

Manipulation or market moves according to your intention(s); it does not really matter. Your transparency, taken with a grain of salt (I am sure you'd recommend that approach also) is more than welcomed despite the sentiment. As a result of this overall discussion I halved my intended (future) percentage of DASH in my portfolio.

I've got quite a lot of sympathy for both of you (....hey, I can post again after my recent "knuckle-wrap" - thanks mprep !).

Otoh has taken up his market positions as suit him and wozzek has responded accordingly. The market depth and trading price simply aggregate the two.

As far as the use of the term "manipulation" goes, the fact is that Otoh has not been able to manipulate the market at all IMO. If he had, he would have been able to adopt his new positions without suffering an adverse market response. True manipulation is a whole order of magnitude more malignant - such as re-hypothecation in the paper gold market where you can actually prevent the market from functioning properly by creating fake supply.

I'd call what Otoh's doing "strategic positioning" to maximise his perceived investment.

Having said all that, I can see why smaller holders refer to this type of strategic positioning as "manipulation" because, relatively speaking, large holders are able to effect far bigger price movements than small holders are. It also tends to be regarded as a distortion of the "genuine" balance of supply and demand.

But lets examine this for a moment. What is the "genuine balance of supply and demand" ? We cannot know. We can never know what motivation lies behind all the orders up and down the length of a market depth chart. We can only see WHAT each market participant values the asset at, we can never see WHY they value it at that level.

At the end of the day, many people have a problem with swallowing the idea that markets are not democracies. They belong to whoever wants them the most - be that many small players or a few large ones. You just have to hope to hell that the larger players are benevolent, not malevolent and in that regard, Otoh's transparency has helped a great deal.

Markets function best when everyone makes up their own minds about how they value an asset and how they position their investments which is why I respect both Otoh's and wozzek's perspectives equally.

[Kienbui]

I think, that price is going down because of one (several) persons own 50%+ of masternodes, so budgeting system is in almost one hands, so there is no real decentralization.

In past, I thought, that budget money will be deducted from mined blocks (45% (miners) + 45% (masternodes) + 10% (budgets)) and load will be low, but now I see, that 5861 DASH was generated in the moment.

P.S. Judging on voting results I see, that real masternode operators voted was around 100 persons maximum, and 1000+ vote is always decisive.

As I said in past, who owns more masternodes can create more masternodes without new investments. Some people enjoy MN count rises, but I'm not. These new masternodes creates the same person who own 50% of existing masternodes and the most important - it costs no money for him.

And now, he can control budgeting system, simulating decentralization and real voting.

So, it's not wonderful, that DASH/BTC rate is falling, because project losses trust, I think, it's obvious. But somebody try to prove, that price falling doesn't matter.

Last time, I began to suspect, that this project really was created to simply pump money from it, first: throw instamine, second: throw masternode system, third: throw budgets.

I watch for project long time and I don't see any real promotion of it (especially seeing another projects promotion). Last months, market at all ceased to pay attention on DASH news.

If the reward for 1 block is 4.6 Dash then the reward for one month is 79,488 Dash, and 5,861 still less than 10% of that number.

[wozzek23]

Apparently, as posted earlier, there is a popular game that is being illegally downloaded with a dash miner hijack in it where it's taking control of people's (probably pretty good gpu as the game requires it) and mining on coinmine.pl  This is causing, once again, for coinmine.pl to have more than 50% of the hash, and these guys are finding a ton of the blocks (hence earning a ton of coins) and they're immediately dumping the coins they mine. This is also causing difficulty to be high.

So, I guess until those fools figure out they're paying the electricity bill and wear and tear on their computers for someone else's gain, and uninstall that game, this will continue.

So, we will keep bleeding and the DASH price will most likely continue to drop as long as a "illegal hijack" (I guess this is criminal, no?) is in place? And we do not only depend on Otoh's good will to keep the price at $2.00 but on the "fools figure out" someone placed a trojan to their systems???

Unless I am not understanding a word of what you're saying it can't get more delusional than that.

Coinmine.pl (is this you Slawek??) should do something about it. Authors of the game should do something about it. The community should start combing the forums etc., connected with that "game" -- but sitting here and rolling our thumbs like it's a no big deal is suicidal.

Anyway, I don't really see any point in fretting over the price.  If you're a trader, well, every price change is an opportunity, so I guess good luck there, but for people like me, it really doesn't matter.  I've learned not to take it personally when the price drops.  I used to get sad, feeling like we're over-looked, which we are.  But now, I see it wouldn't matter anyway.  It's going to do what it's going to do until adoption happens.  I'm currently just hanging on to my coins and trying to find other ways to pay for my bills.  I won't sell at this price

If a price drop is - partially or mainly - due to someone's criminal activity it is a reason to sound a red alarm.

But I do not really understand what's going on with that hijack (I'd greatly appreaciate if someone would venture to educate me / us on what all of that really means) so let me replay about point of fretting over the price.

A price is a VALUATION of the product. Given that DASH trades in a way that resembles stock markets or any other financial markets it reflects FUTURE VALUATION of the product. It gives it gravitas, value, a reason to invest. This is, after all, as Otoh wrote several messages above, an investment vehicle. Yesterday, the last time I checked, 52.48% of all DASH were 'locked in' Masternodes that are income producing (think bonds interest, Evan's old idea) investment vehicles.

So now think of an established company that rolled out an epic upgrade / new product. And imagine why would its price go down. (if it did NOT go up anticipating the news). Think of a startup that has gotten monies from an angel investor but after a major update no venture capital wants to give more, but instead is offering less? What that would be?

So, any long term negative price movement indicates that something is rotten.

And this is indeed a reason to fret and worry and ponder and look for a solution. If DASH would go to 0.001 as you claimed Otoh is capable of producing such a dramatic drop, do you really, honestly think it would survive because in five years from now it would be "adopted."

A bit of seriousness - on the business, marketing, market side - from the community is needed to, at least try to match the seriousness the developers are showing as they are leaping forward.

This is not a joke, Tante. You should know that. It is easy for me - I am out - and this discussion does not make me confident that I should go back. And I was into Darkcoin from the start. And I admire Evan. And I believe in the product. And I follow this thing in and out. So, how to you think all of that transpires would bode for someone who is pondering investing...

[Otoh]

So Otoh hedges a bit in the face of a declining price and then puts up a huge BUY wall and people are mad? He's willing to buy 16,000 DASH and support the price at some level, or am I missing something?

He COULD put in a monster sell wall and really fuck everything for his own gain, but I don't see that here.

Edit: Though if it was him that dumped multiple lots of 5k+ DASH in the last month, then I might feel a little different...

Yep, very true and I'm most aware of it, I've never put up sell walls and certainly didn't do any of those large dumps last month or right now except for the 3k one yesterday which I announced here and was open about why I choose to do it, the USD from those coins are now all on the $2 bid wall, better there than in the pockets of some manipulative speculators I'm sure

[wozzek23]

Manipulation or market moves according to your intention(s); it does not really matter. Your transparency, taken with a grain of salt (I am sure you'd recommend that approach also) is more than welcomed despite the sentiment. As a result of this overall discussion I halved my intended (future) percentage of DASH in my portfolio.

I've got quite a lot of sympathy for both of you (....hey, I can post again after my recent "knuckle-wrap" - thanks mprep !).

Otoh has taken up his market positions as suit him and wozzek has responded accordingly. The market depth and trading price simply aggregate the two.

As far as the use of the term "manipulation" goes, the fact is that Otoh has not been able to manipulate the market at all IMO. If he had, he would have been able to adopt his new positions without suffering an adverse market response. True manipulation is a whole order of magnitude more malignant - such as re-hypothecation in the paper gold market where you can actually prevent the market from functioning properly by creating fake supply.

I'd call what Otoh's doing "strategic positioning" to maximise his perceived investment.

Having said all that, I can see why smaller holders refer to this type of strategic positioning as "manipulation" because, relatively speaking, large holders are able to effect far bigger price movements than small holders are. It also tends to be regarded as a distortion of the "genuine" balance of supply and demand.

But lets examine this for a moment. What is the "genuine balance of supply and demand" ? We cannot know. We can never know what motivation lies behind all the orders up and down the length of a market depth chart. We can only see WHAT each market participant values the asset at, we can never see WHY they value it at that level.

At the end of the day, many people have a problem with swallowing the idea that markets are not democracies. They belong to whoever wants them the most - be that many small players or a few large ones. You just have to hope to f*ck that the larger players are benevolent, not malevolent and in that regard, Otoh's transparency has helped a great deal.

Markets function best when everyone makes up their own minds about how they value an asset and how they position their investments which is why I respect both Otoh's and wozzek's perspectives equally.

Great post, thanks.

I have zero problems with semantics. If "strategic positioning" is the best way of describing that one particular investor's play, be it. But, while I have zero reasons to doubt him (and I do not doubt him) isn't it naive of anyone to believe in anyone's benevolence?

Whatever is going with the price, whatever is the reason behind -- strategic positioning of one investor, intended manipulation of another, dropping of illegals obtained, hijacked DASH you fill in the blanks -- this points to an intrinsic weakness of the whole project, something I've been hammering about many times before but do not feel a need to repeat any of this and suffer abuse ))))))

The KEY question for me at this moment is - why DASH is not getting any real (venture) investment from the outside to keep it going if it is so great as many of us, cheerleaders, think it is?

[Sub-Ether]

I've got quite a lot of sympathy for both of you (....hey, I can post again after my recent "knuckle-wrap" - thanks mprep !).
...
Markets function best when everyone makes up their own minds about how they value an asset and how they position their investments which is why I respect both Otoh's and wozzek's perspectives equally.

Glad to have you back, looks like I will have to try harder with the so called off topic posts else I may stay unbanned forever  

[wozzek23]

Yep, very true and I'm most aware of it, I've never put up sell walls and certainly didn't do any of those large dumps last month or right now except for the 3k one yesterday which I announced here and was open about why I choose to do it, the USD from those coins are now all on the $2 bid wall, better there than in the pockets of some manipulative speculators I'm sure

So there are some manipulative speculators out there after all I for one am for sure glad you're not one of these...

[LiteMine]

I agree about the miner wozzek, does someone have a good relationship with pool operators to get this scam/hijack miner guy banned? Then at least he will have to figure out how to solo mine. I can shoot off some emails, but they may get ignored. Who knows the top pool people around here?

[splawik21]

Woozek23, no, I'm not the coinmine.pl admin. I do not hold any miningpool TBH.