[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[Jestah]

Apart from the speculation on the amount of Masternodes owned by the founders I fully agree:

10% is pretty ridiculous. Budget proposals must be able to fail due to low participation. Maybe a dynamic limit should be implemented similar to difficulty adjustments.

Say maybe: Last time 43% voted on the last proposal, so let's try to reel in at least 46% of all eligible voters within 7 days and (if that fails) at least 40% within 14 days, otherwise the proposal fails.

Why can't it continue to be a flat % of the total MN count?   I agree that 10% is way too low though.  

[Macrochip]

Because, after all, you're trying to manage people here, not machines.
You can't control the circumstances another person is in. What about people going on vacation? Last thing on their mind is voting for proposals. Difficulty adjustments consider the amount of hashing power put into the network by people.
Well we should adjust our DGBB accordingly by the "voting power" put into the network, which is also done by people.

[Solarminer]

Apart from the speculation on the amount of Masternodes owned by the founders I fully agree:

10% is pretty ridiculous. Budget proposals must be able to fail due to low participation. Maybe a dynamic limit should be implemented similar to difficulty adjustments.

Say maybe: Last time 43% voted on the last proposal, so let's try to reel in at least 46% of all eligible voters within 7 days and (if that fails) at least 40% within 14 days, otherwise the proposal fails.

Why can't it continue to be a flat % of the total MN count?   I agree that 10% is way too low though.  

I think it would be a good idea to have a different % for different types of proposals.

• An expensive proposal (over $1000) needs to have 30%
• A proposal under ($1000) just needs to hit 20%

My reasoning is that if a project is large it should have more scrutiny put on it.  For example the public awareness is an ongoing proposal.  It has very few details about where the costs go and little reporting on how the funds have been spent.  This is the type of proposal that should require a high vote % to be accepted.  Then it would get defunded until it showed value or got the reporting cleaned up.  These are proposals that can very easily turn into paying people to have meetings.(I am not saying that this is happening - just be aware)

A simple conference trip, may have a shorter time for it to collect votes.  These types of proposals are one time payments and a lower % should be fine.

To all those that say they don't have a vote.  You can vote against any ongoing projects.  If the no votes get close the yes votes, it will get defunded.   Better yet submit a better project that gets more accepted votes and kicks the ones with low votes out.

I believe the thought on this system is that there would be more proposals and the better ones would kick out the low vote ones.  Theoretically, this is a good argument.  But as it has been going, we haven't had enough proposals to make that happen.  

My initial option was to have a majority vote in each proposal.  50% may be tough to get to, and I am leaning more toward 30% to at least get over the major holders that would have enough votes.

[tungfa]

Daily Decrypt 52 mentions E. Duffield interview Liberty Entrepreneurs Podcast Episode #8- "Improving Crypocurrency Through Competition"

http://youtu.be/iZb6avkgcII

Interview mentioned
http://youtu.be/e-wZr9chPrk



Anybody has some links to the reddit discussions she is talking about

[stan.distortion]

So far the budget limit hasn't been hit, when that happens votes are sorted for inclusion by number of votes (yeas - nays) which would push up the requirement. Depending on how the funding stacks up that still leaves room for smaller and less popular budgets to get if larger budgets fail due to insufficient funds to cover them.

[MasterMined710]

Thread also on Dashtalk forum : https://dashtalk.org/threads/how-to-strenghten-dashs-voting-system.7309/

How to strenghten Dash's Voting System

Problem : masternode budget proposal voting participation is currently too low,  this can be observed on below overview's last column (Total Ratio).

https://dashninja.pl/budgets.html

It's my opinion that the setting must be 50%+1 (Yes - No). If you don't achieve this, your proposal is simply not good or important enough. Feel free to try again. Yes this also means that some proposals from the Dash team itself may have a hard(er) time getting through. In my opinion, that's actually a good thing and would truly require (pretty much) the whole dash team ánd masternode owner community to vote and discuss/challenge/refine each proposal.

It's not about being notified there's a new proposal, it's not about how easy the voting process is, ... it's the treshold.

Raising the threshold will bring me back to the voting process.

i agree with the 50% +1 proposal. it will need to be done at some point either way but could wait 2-3 months if needed.
we could vote on it if someone makes a 5 DASH payment proposal to raise it to 50% +1. that way they get their 5 DASH proposal fee back too.
it's very easy to vote now with services like DASH whale. not sure all the proposals show up there though? Anyone? Anyone? rango?

i don't support mandatory voting or any penalties. it should remain 100% voluntary.

[emitkirby]

I've registered today for the first time since buying 570 DASH at the height of the Darkcoin bubble. I've got about $7000 NZD invested which is $4732 USD in todays value.

A move which in todays market would make me about $2000 NZD return. As an investment I made a huge mistake playing the short game. I'm holding for the long game which I hope will make a reasonable return.

Now that my cards are on the table I would like to lay down some thoughts.

Evolution sounds great, I hope you can pull it off. That being said.

Evan you are not transparent enough. Having just read that you alone control the budget system and can pass all budgets with 10% of the vote bothers me. I'm sure you are a busy man but for this system to work and gain momentum you need to stop creating situations where you unfairly control portions of the system.

Otoh, I respect your right to make investments however the size of your investment in DASH gives you a lot of power. This is something I believe is holding potential investors back.

I believe this was meant to take control away from any one person or entity and you are engineering a system where you have total control.

I will continue to hold DASH for the foreseeable future because it's simply not worth it to me to sell.

I hope you don't ruin my investment with greed or the inability to see the forest from the trees.

Emit.

[Minotaur26]

I've registered today for the first time since buying 570 DASH at the height of the Darkcoin bubble. I've got about $7000 NZD invested which is $4732 USD in todays value.

A move which in todays market would make me about $2000 NZD return. As an investment I made a huge mistake playing the short game. I'm holding for the long game which I hope will make a reasonable return.

Now that my cards are on the table I would like to lay down some thoughts.

Evolution sounds great, I hope you can pull it off. That being said.

Evan you are not transparent enough. Having just read that you alone control the budget system and can pass all budgets with 10% of the vote bothers me. I'm sure you are a busy man but for this system to work and gain momentum you need to stop creating situations where you unfairly control portions of the system.

Otoh, I respect your right to make investments however the size of your investment in DASH gives you a lot of power. This is something I believe is holding potential investors back.

I believe this was meant to take control away from any one person or entity and you are engineering a system where you have total control.

I will continue to hold DASH for the foreseeable future because it's simply not worth it to me to sell.

I hope you don't ruin my investment with greed or the inability to see the forest from the trees.

Emit.

Just to make sure we are all on the same page, this is how the system currently works:

From dashninja:

A budget proposal is valid if the fee was payed and it was submitted to peers successfully.

A budget proposal is established when it is older than 1 day.

A budget proposal is alloted (will get paid on next super-block and is in the budgets projection list) when Yea votes minus Nay votes is more than 10% of total masternodes.


The system is designed to resolve controversy, the way it works the yeas in the proposal have to win the nays by at least 10% of the network.  If there is a polemic proposal where 10% of the network says No then you need at least 20% of the network to say yes for it to get approved for a total 30% participation. It self adjusts and I don't think this is well understood. Hope this helps.

[HinnomTX]

Here's a way to boost masternode voting. If a masternode doesn't vote on at least one proposal in a given month, it gets a demerit. If it accumulates two demerits it gets booted off the masternode payee list. The masternode will have to restart, so the 'punishment' for not voting is being pushed to the bottom of the list, at a minimum. I like this method because it discourages passive/boomer entitlement behavior.

If I know I'm going to have to break out the hot wallet every other month to restart a masternode that got kicked off for being lazy, then I might as well break out the empty wallet and vote on a few proposals instead.
Voting is a new part of being a responsible Dash Masternode Manager, and there will probably be more responsibilities down the road requiring active participation to maintain this prestigious position.

[tungfa]

Here's a way to boost masternode voting. If a masternode doesn't vote on at least one proposal in a given month, it gets a demerit. If it accumulates two demerits it gets booted off the masternode payee list. The masternode will have to restart, so the 'punishment' for not voting is being pushed to the bottom of the list, at a minimum. I like this method because it discourages passive/boomer entitlement behavior.

If I know I'm going to have to break out the hot wallet every other month to restart a masternode that got kicked off for being lazy, then I might as well break out the empty wallet and vote on a few proposals instead.
Voting is a new part of being a responsible Dash Masternode Manager, and there will probably be more responsibilities down the road requiring active participation to maintain this prestigious position.

the voting and all is totally fine
people are lazy and that is a general thing !
look at general elections, you never get more than 30-40% out of them and Dash Voting is in the same range !

I think a webpage as Dashwhale (Dashwhale converted to official Dash Voting/proposal page) would do the trick and 'beat' the laziness

make it easier and concentrated (1 page for Voting/Proposals only) and easy to promote and keep people updated
my 3 duff as always
 

[spatula]

Here's a way to boost masternode voting. If a masternode doesn't vote on at least one proposal in a given month, it gets a demerit. If it accumulates two demerits it gets booted off the masternode payee list. The masternode will have to restart, so the 'punishment' for not voting is being pushed to the bottom of the list, at a minimum. I like this method because it discourages passive/boomer entitlement behavior.

If I know I'm going to have to break out the hot wallet every other month to restart a masternode that got kicked off for being lazy, then I might as well break out the empty wallet and vote on a few proposals instead.
Voting is a new part of being a responsible Dash Masternode Manager, and there will probably be more responsibilities down the road requiring active participation to maintain this prestigious position.

This isn't a bad idea as long as there is a vote "Present" option. There are reasons why voting shouldn't be mandatory in a democracy.

[tungfa]

Here's a way to boost masternode voting. If a masternode doesn't vote on at least one proposal in a given month, it gets a demerit. If it accumulates two demerits it gets booted off the masternode payee list. The masternode will have to restart, so the 'punishment' for not voting is being pushed to the bottom of the list, at a minimum. I like this method because it discourages passive/boomer entitlement behavior.

If I know I'm going to have to break out the hot wallet every other month to restart a masternode that got kicked off for being lazy, then I might as well break out the empty wallet and vote on a few proposals instead.
Voting is a new part of being a responsible Dash Masternode Manager, and there will probably be more responsibilities down the road requiring active participation to maintain this prestigious position.

This isn't a bad idea as long as there is a vote "Present" option. There are reasons why voting shouldn't be mandatory in a democracy.

i totally agree
you can NOT incentive or pressure voting with None MN payments,
no way !
what would be next ... vote yah or your MN gets kicked ? lol 
(Edit: i am joking obviously to make a point)
beat the laziness, that is what it is all about 

[MasterMined710]

Here's a way to boost masternode voting. If a masternode doesn't vote on at least one proposal in a given month, it gets a demerit. If it accumulates two demerits it gets booted off the masternode payee list. The masternode will have to restart, so the 'punishment' for not voting is being pushed to the bottom of the list, at a minimum. I like this method because it discourages passive/boomer entitlement behavior.

If I know I'm going to have to break out the hot wallet every other month to restart a masternode that got kicked off for being lazy, then I might as well break out the empty wallet and vote on a few proposals instead.
Voting is a new part of being a responsible Dash Masternode Manager, and there will probably be more responsibilities down the road requiring active participation to maintain this prestigious position.

the voting and all is totally fine
people are lazy and that is a general thing !
look at general elections, you never get more than 30-40% out of them and Dash Voting is in the same range !

I think a webpage as Dashwhale (Dashwhale converted to official Dash Voting/proposal page) would do the trick and 'beat' the laziness

make it easier and concentrated (1 page for Voting/Proposals only) and easy to promote and keep people updated
my 3 duff as always
 

there should be a DAPI for that. seems in the future evolution could be used for that. it could be like the embedded Facebook comments on various websites. dashwhale could plug into it and dashtalk etc could all plug into the voting proposal DAPI. it would update across all platforms in real time just like the facebook one but decentralized.
the voting proposal DAPI would be part of the larger DASH social network or something like that, just throwing crazy ideas out there.

[Jestah]

there should be a DAPI for that. seems in the future evolution could be used for that. it could be like the embedded Facebook comments on various websites. dashwhale could plug into it and dashtalk etc could all plug into the voting proposal DAPI. it would update across all platforms in real time just like the facebook one but decentralized.
the voting proposal DAPI would be part of the larger DASH social network or something like that, just throwing crazy ideas out there.

Agreed, it should be part of the upcoming system and not dependent on a third party.  What if whoever the third party is dies?  Starts acting unstable?  Or even decides they like monero better.......gasp.

[BusterNutBag]

A vote should never be levied taxation and/or fee.
A right to vote is not a mandate to vote.

[arielbit]

Kinda amusing following the DASH haters in their travels. 

You get hypocrisy and irony all wrapped in one sometimes.....

Why not choose a different coin then?

There is a whole market out there of coins. If you don't like this coin, pick (or create) a different one!

I fail to see why this coin needs to be turned into something it is not in order to avoid being disliked by someone.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623147.msg13238762#msg13238762

digging old post now eh?

what is you love at first sight story with darkcoin?

gonna play mute again on me? 

[Lukas_Jackson]

Kinda amusing following the DASH haters in their travels. 

You get hypocrisy and irony all wrapped in one sometimes.....

Why not choose a different coin then?

There is a whole market out there of coins. If you don't like this coin, pick (or create) a different one!

I fail to see why this coin needs to be turned into something it is not in order to avoid being disliked by someone.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623147.msg13238762#msg13238762

Ignored since long time but this just made me to not respect him even more.
This guy is on the same level as iceyscammer.

[BrainShutdown]

Meanwhile...

[tungfa]

Anybody speaks Indonesian ??
Help Please
 
https://dashtalk.org/threads/new-video-translations.6159/page-6#post-76649

[ddink7]

Thread also on Dashtalk forum : https://dashtalk.org/threads/how-to-strenghten-dashs-voting-system.7309/

How to strenghten Dash's Voting System

Problem : masternode budget proposal voting participation is currently too low,  this can be observed on below overview's last column (Total Ratio).

https://dashninja.pl/budgets.html

The main reason why I don't vote anymore, is that I have no incentive to vote, since the vote is primarily (solely) defined by the three founders (Evan, Daniel and ?) and Otoh. Together they probably own up to 1,000,000 coins. This is public knowledge. I don't know if they have set up masternodes for all the coins they own, but it would seem reasonable to assume they did so (or largely so). The voting threshold was set to 10% (Yes - No) votes, which is far too low to consider this to be somewhat of a democratic voting process, taking into account the total amount of masternodes these 4 individuals (probably) own. It's safe to assume they control the outcome of the voting process.

Evan avoided the question from the interviewer at the Mexico conference regarding this specific point. Evan didn't answer it truthfully, avoiding the essence of the question, so I'm sure he's aware this is not a long term (viable) setup. In the end it will just be a few people who will still vote, if nothing changes. A lot of time has gone by and it seemed to me that the initial configuration would remain so. This would effectively render DGBB a pointless functionality.

How can you motivate anyone who just owns 1 or even 10 masternodes to participate, in the current setup/configuration? It's just a formality without any significance whatsoever. This was entirely to be expected and I'm somewhat surprised it has taken this long to actually being discussed, as if you all don't know what's going on? You think people are incapable of executing simple commands in their wallet console? It was obvious from the first post regarding DGBB that this was going to happen. I personally imagined this to be changed once the DGBB functionality was proven to be successfully implemented (which seems to be the case), but it hasn't and there's been no communication on changing this threshold, so up to now I'm still disappointed to see new proposals before actually fine-tuning DGBB to a more righteous configuration.

Since I'm not being penalized for not voting and there's no financial incentive to vote, despite it primarily not being democratic, I've completely lost interest in voting for any new proposal. Why should I waste my energy on it? I have other projects I'm involved in, so I use my time where I'm of actual value.

The technology is probably good, but the threshold to pass a vote with DGBB is obviously wrong. Why such low targets? Scared no proposal would ever pass through? The Dash team really needed that salary proposal to pass through didn't they? So going for 10% made it a sure thing.

It's my opinion that the setting must be 50%+1 (Yes - No). If you don't achieve this, your proposal is simply not good or important enough. Feel free to try again. Yes this also means that some proposals from the Dash team itself may have a hard(er) time getting through. In my opinion, that's actually a good thing and would truly require (pretty much) the whole dash team ánd masternode owner community to vote and discuss/challenge/refine each proposal.

It's not about being notified there's a new proposal, it's not about how easy the voting process is, ... it's the treshold.

Raising the threshold will bring me back to the voting process.

Right now raising the threshold to 50%+1 would result in no budget proposal ever passing, therefore nullifying the entire budget system in the first place. If you want the threshold to be raised, then start voting and maybe the team will raise it. If enough people stop voting, then the team will likely lower it. There have to be enough people participating in order for budgets to be able to pass.

For what it's worth, iirc Otoh never votes his nodes.

P.S. I'm not really concerned. Most people in democracies don't vote in any event.