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Author Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency  (Read 8529644 times)
dazbarlby
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December 22, 2015, 05:05:44 PM

DASH owes a lot to Bitcoin but unfortunately the RBF debate highlights how much of a mess Bitcoin is in. Fortunately it also highlights how good of a position DASH is in. The RBF debate will surely help to draw more people from Bitcoin after the DASH Evolution event in January.

Next year we will be able to make thousands of anonymous, instantly confirmed transactions every second, while Bitcoin will probably still be debating this and holding itself back as usual.

DASH Tips Welcome: XjxKn65XjcuMFLNPLrdT8SxihaySsT3f3a
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Sub-Ether
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December 22, 2015, 05:06:19 PM

With RBF, however, when a double-spend occurs, the one with the highest fee is the one confirmed. Thus the first seen transaction is somewhat meaningless.''
So RBF is basically a queue-jumping technology ?
looks like it, so you can queue jump your own transaction using a higher fee even though its a younger transaction.
Sounds messy, what happened to block confirmations and POW, like Eric Voorhees says is it even necessary?

Dash is 27.3 times faster with syncing and updating than Bitcoin and 93.7 times faster than Monero. Bitcoin (v0.11.0) has a Tao ratio 11.2% faster than bitcoin (v0.10.0) release.
Dash (v.0.12.0.49) = Tao sync ratio = 0.15 seconds / hour of update || Dash (v.0.11.2.23) = Tao sync ratio = 0.24 seconds / hour of update. V12 versus V11 speedup = +36.5%
Bitcoin (v.0.11.0) = Tao sync ratio = 4.14 seconds / hour of update || Monero (v.0.41.1)  = Tao sync ratio = 14.2 seconds / hour of update
toknormal
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December 22, 2015, 05:27:27 PM



With RBF, however, when a double-spend occurs, the one with the highest fee is the one confirmed. Thus the first seen transaction is somewhat meaningless.''

So RBF is basically a queue-jumping technology ?

Speedy boarding ?

Priority boarding ?

Ah ! On reading more I realise it's more than just "Speedy Boarding".

It's arrive late for the flight and bounce who-ever you want out of their seat so you can have it !

It's pay the merchant $1600 for a new Plasma TV, then once you've walked out of the shop with it, cancel and redo the payment for only $1

Excellent thinking ! Good for customers wanting cheap stuff at least  Cheesy

Also, clearly good for confidence in the bitcoin system generally. By comparison, MT Gox was an endorsement. (No blockchain corruption occurred).


AlexGR
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December 22, 2015, 05:37:04 PM



With RBF, however, when a double-spend occurs, the one with the highest fee is the one confirmed. Thus the first seen transaction is somewhat meaningless.''

So RBF is basically a queue-jumping technology ?

Speedy boarding ?

Priority boarding ?

Ah ! On reading more I realise it's more than just "Speedy Boarding".

It's arrive late for the flight and bounce who-ever you want out of their seat so you can have it !

It's pay the merchant $1600 for a new Plasma TV, then once you've walked out of the shop with it, cancel and redo the payment for only $1

Excellent thinking ! Good for customers wanting cheap stuff at least  Cheesy

Also, clearly good for confidence in the bitcoin system generally. By comparison, MT Gox was an endorsement. (No blockchain corruption occurred).

In theory (algorithmically) it should be possible to just increase the fee for faster processing, if, say, you made an error and sent a very low or zero fee tx and want it to process faster rather than taking hours. The coder would simply allow use of RBF *IF* all the other transaction details match the first one, except the fee.

If you have a different payment address so that you try to "steal" from a 0-conf payment processor => it won't work
If you try to make the amount smaller => it won't work
if you want to raise the fee => it'll work.

...unless there is some kind of issue I'm unaware of that prevents this kind of system.
toknormal
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December 22, 2015, 05:43:54 PM


In theory (algorithmically) it should be possible to just increase the fee for faster processing, if, say, you made an error and sent a very low or zero fee tx and want it to process faster rather than taking hours. The coder would simply allow use of RBF *IF* all the other transaction details match the first one, except the fee.

Thats the thin end of a huge wedge I think. When you start making double spends possible AND conditional upon a rule base then the rule base itself exposes a huge attack vector. The problem isn't lack of rules, it's the lack of an alternate protocol than supports the primary protocol where it's weak.

Will post a "picture" in a minute  Wink
noah tall
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December 22, 2015, 05:47:39 PM


Look, it's really quite simple.  More Fees + Higher Fees = Happy Blockstream
toknormal
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December 22, 2015, 06:17:49 PM


Here's the problem mono-tiered protocols have (and why there are almost none in existence amongst network protocols).

Also why bitcoin has problems trying to be both a cash medium AND a settlement layer.

Those design objectives have conflicting priorities. The reason almost ALL logic protocols have some kind of articulation is because almost ALL design objectives have conflicting priorities. (If not, they deploy complimentary technologies and a horrible interface to "get the job done", e.g. SQL's strength was its versatility. Its weakness was programmability, so Microsoft created an abstracted object layer to articulate the two. Bitcoin+Lightning is another example or Bitcoin+Sidechains).

If you can get that articulation integrated in the same protocol you will have a much more powerful, secure and complete solution. (Athough it may not result in the biggest economy as I related in an earlier post. A lot of people make a lot of money from fixing problems in sh*t designs).





(In Dash, the green triangle is supported by InstantX of course, its complimentary protocol to the mining protocol which serves as the primary as far as confirmations go).


stan.distortion
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December 22, 2015, 06:47:12 PM

...
Every day that goes by proves that the world actually needs Dash. This space needs a project that proves you can govern and fund one of these projects with no centralization, support instant transactions and scales without centralizing the full nodes around a few large companies (which is also happening in BTC). BTC and Dash are really going in separate directions and I think we should start being careful about what we merge upstream; I'm definitely not merging RBF.

Good to hear. There's some sense in it, it clears up a messy part of the way transactions work but just putting it in like this... it should have had months of high-profile notification so businesses could prepare, bitpay, shapeshift, they're just two that have been put at risk by it and there's countless more. The majority consent for changes to Dashes code makes more sense now than ever and knowing the devs are looking out for this kind of thing and guarding against it is a great source of confidence, cheers.

Curious about the trolls methods? http://pastebin.com/irj4Fyd5
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HappyComplex
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December 22, 2015, 06:51:43 PM

Is RBF actually getting implemented into bitcoin?

If so, it seems like this will force people who need faster than 10 minute transactions to switch to altcoins.
noah tall
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December 22, 2015, 07:17:54 PM

Is RBF actually getting implemented into bitcoin?

If so, it seems like this will force people who need faster than 10 minute transactions to switch to altcoins.

Their plan is to force people into using sidechains, which sound better.  Side > Alt.  Blockstream, Lightening, etc are going to make "them" more money.

stupid
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December 22, 2015, 07:22:39 PM

How to make DASH look good in a few simple steps.

1 - Continue development of Evolution.
2 - Continue to shun anything that ice's favorite dev (Peter Todd) thows out there.
3 - When posting an image, be sure to laugh at tinypic making you type icebreaker



Every day that goes by, DASH looks better and better.  Every day Bitcoin looks worse.

BEHOLD:



Wtf?! That's fscking sabotage, it drastically alters a high percentage of existing uses and needs to be reverted immediately and Peter Todds commit access revoked. Ffs, that effects way more users than a change of block size would and the main "feature" seems to be allowing bidding wars to be included in bloated blocks.

Should've known there was something dodgy about that guy when the unwelcome guests here in this thread where quoting him endlessly, the cancer's running deep in Bitcoin but every problem can be seen as an opportunity and Dash will come up with defences against this kind of BS, commits by consensus should stop this shit dead in its tracks.

Every day that goes by proves that the world actually needs Dash. This space needs a project that proves you can govern and fund one of these projects with no centralization, support instant transactions and scales without centralizing the full nodes around a few large companies (which is also happening in BTC). BTC and Dash are really going in separate directions and I think we should start being careful about what we merge upstream; I'm definitely not merging RBF.
That's awesome to hear. Our approach to scalability will be appealing to more users.

https://twitter.com/taoofsatoshi/status/679380666610540545

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Solarminer
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December 22, 2015, 07:56:09 PM


Here's the problem mono-tiered protocols have (and why there are almost none in existence amongst network protocols).

Also why bitcoin has problems trying to be both a cash medium AND a settlement layer.


Toknormal, Your post above is great, but what can we do to make this understandable to the non-crypto initiated?  Maybe you could add some graphics to my post below and we could turn this into an info sheet for beginner bitcoiners to help them understand the concepts and look at Dash as an alternative. 

Let's say each transaction is a message, blocks hold messages in a letter, Blocktime is the time it takes to deliver the letter.  Call each block 1 day so it works with this model.

Bitcoin Transactions:
You pay a standard fee (Economy Mail delivery in 7 days)
You message gets queued to go into a letter
Other messages may go first if they paid a higher fee
Delivery expected in 7 days

You pay a higher fee (Express Mail - 1 day)
You message gets queued to go into a letter with higher priority
Delivery expected in 1 day.

Increasing block size.(Economy Mail Price with Express Mail Delivery)
You can now pay a standard fee
All messages get accepted and ship in a box
Delivery expected in 1 day.

Lightning Enhancement(Trusting a 3rd party vs Blockchain)
Pay with standard or higher fee
3rd party service looks at your message and calls recipient with transaction details.  You pay for phone call.
Letter arrives in 1-7 days to hopefully confirm what 3rd party service said.
You are trusting the 3rd party to convey correct details(no block chain security)

Transaction Bundling
(Coinbase/Bitpay transactions)
Pay with reduced fee
Coinbase accepts transactions and combines several into each message
Messages are put in letters with a 1 block delay
3rd party services can look at messages communicate with others 'in network' quickly.
Delivery is instant for in network, out of network is 2 days

RBI(Fee based, possible to get bumped)
Pay with a standard fee
Others pay with higher fee
Your message doesn't get enough priority and gets returned.

Dash Transactions
(Instantx with Evolution Implementation)
Pay with zero fee
Message sent via EMAIL!
Delivery ~1 second
No 3rd party trust needed, no fees, no risk, fast.

Join a lively chat style discussion on the CoinChat.Club Slack https://CoinChat.Club/
TaoOfSaatoshi
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December 22, 2015, 08:01:55 PM



https://twitter.com/taoofsatoshi/status/679389563391971329


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December 22, 2015, 08:05:59 PM

It's extremely difficult to find a system that can have very low to no fees and that isn't simultaneously open to abuse by a script-kiddie... unless that system doesn't actually store a ledger but rather something like ...balances which shift.

Actually even then you can spam it by creating a lot of balance addresses that would require XX bytes to store, just by sending a no-fee tx of 1 satoshi / duff to a veeeery long list of random addresses. So, I really can't think of how you can make a promise of zero to very low fees and infinite scaling when you are also opening yourself to an attack vector.

But then again, I'm not the coder here.
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December 22, 2015, 08:20:12 PM

Hi!

How do I stake this coin?

Thanks!

There is no stake in the traditional sense. But can earn interest (currently 14% p.a.) for running a masternode (1000 Dash required). https://dashpay.atlassian.net/wiki/display/DOC/Masternode+guides

I see!

Thanks for the info!
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December 22, 2015, 08:27:40 PM



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December 22, 2015, 08:33:25 PM

Yes, that's what I signed up for... bring it on!  Grin

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December 22, 2015, 09:03:58 PM

Sorry to screw with your post Tok, but this was too inaccurate:


Out of curiosity, how does RBF "murder" 0-conf transactions ?

P.S. Non-articulated protocols. The internet already binned them 50 years ago so no-one needs to be surprised. You can't fix one thing without screwing another. Elephant in the room.

Can't fix capacity without screwing with blocksize.
Can't fix anonymity without screwing with  transparency.
Can't fix speed without screwing with confirmations.




Another proud lifetime Dash Foundation member Smiley My TanteStefana account was hacked, Beware trading
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December 22, 2015, 09:07:52 PM


Actually, I think that there will always be a tiny minimal fee, no?  And Evan has submitted a plan for larger entities, like businesses, to pay a (small) fee, while keeping most user's access virtually free (probably some kind of tiny fee to mitigate attacks?) 

Another proud lifetime Dash Foundation member Smiley My TanteStefana account was hacked, Beware trading
"You'll never reach your destination if you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks."
Sir Winston Churchill  BTC: 12pu5nMDPEyUGu3HTbnUB5zY5RG65EQE5d
bigrcanada
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December 22, 2015, 09:13:53 PM


Actually, I think that there will always be a tiny minimal fee, no?  And Evan has submitted a plan for larger entities, like businesses, to pay a (small) fee, while keeping most user's access virtually free (probably some kind of tiny fee to mitigate attacks?) 

As a merchant...I'm ok with a Fee.  There is no way that you can sustain a system without maintenance fees of some sort, i believe.

Proud lifetime DASH Foundation Member | First Brick & Mortar DASH Merchant |  Please visit DASH.org or DASHtalk.org for a list of merchants and information.
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