Bitcoin Forum
March 24, 2017, 08:16:11 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.14.0  [Torrent]. (New!)
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 ... 5597 5598 5599 5600 5601 5602 5603 5604 5605 5606 5607 5608 5609 5610 5611 5612 5613 5614 5615 5616 5617 5618 5619 5620 5621 5622 5623 5624 5625 5626 5627 5628 5629 5630 5631 5632 5633 5634 5635 5636 5637 5638 5639 5640 5641 5642 5643 5644 5645 5646 [5647] 5648 5649 5650 5651 5652 5653 5654 5655 5656 5657 5658 5659 5660 5661 5662 5663 5664 5665 5666 5667 5668 5669 5670 5671 5672 5673 5674 5675 5676 5677 5678 5679 5680 5681 5682 5683 5684 5685 5686 5687 5688 5689 5690 5691 5692 5693 5694 5695 5696 5697 ... 6422 »
  Print  
Author Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency  (Read 7766009 times)
toknormal
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 1204


View Profile
December 22, 2015, 05:27:27 PM



With RBF, however, when a double-spend occurs, the one with the highest fee is the one confirmed. Thus the first seen transaction is somewhat meaningless.''

So RBF is basically a queue-jumping technology ?

Speedy boarding ?

Priority boarding ?

Ah ! On reading more I realise it's more than just "Speedy Boarding".

It's arrive late for the flight and bounce who-ever you want out of their seat so you can have it !

It's pay the merchant $1600 for a new Plasma TV, then once you've walked out of the shop with it, cancel and redo the payment for only $1

Excellent thinking ! Good for customers wanting cheap stuff at least  Cheesy

Also, clearly good for confidence in the bitcoin system generally. By comparison, MT Gox was an endorsement. (No blockchain corruption occurred).


1490386571
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1490386571

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1490386571
Reply with quote  #2

1490386571
Report to moderator
1490386571
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1490386571

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1490386571
Reply with quote  #2

1490386571
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1490386571
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1490386571

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1490386571
Reply with quote  #2

1490386571
Report to moderator
1490386571
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1490386571

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1490386571
Reply with quote  #2

1490386571
Report to moderator
AlexGR
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1176



View Profile
December 22, 2015, 05:37:04 PM



With RBF, however, when a double-spend occurs, the one with the highest fee is the one confirmed. Thus the first seen transaction is somewhat meaningless.''

So RBF is basically a queue-jumping technology ?

Speedy boarding ?

Priority boarding ?

Ah ! On reading more I realise it's more than just "Speedy Boarding".

It's arrive late for the flight and bounce who-ever you want out of their seat so you can have it !

It's pay the merchant $1600 for a new Plasma TV, then once you've walked out of the shop with it, cancel and redo the payment for only $1

Excellent thinking ! Good for customers wanting cheap stuff at least  Cheesy

Also, clearly good for confidence in the bitcoin system generally. By comparison, MT Gox was an endorsement. (No blockchain corruption occurred).

In theory (algorithmically) it should be possible to just increase the fee for faster processing, if, say, you made an error and sent a very low or zero fee tx and want it to process faster rather than taking hours. The coder would simply allow use of RBF *IF* all the other transaction details match the first one, except the fee.

If you have a different payment address so that you try to "steal" from a 0-conf payment processor => it won't work
If you try to make the amount smaller => it won't work
if you want to raise the fee => it'll work.

...unless there is some kind of issue I'm unaware of that prevents this kind of system.
toknormal
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 1204


View Profile
December 22, 2015, 05:43:54 PM


In theory (algorithmically) it should be possible to just increase the fee for faster processing, if, say, you made an error and sent a very low or zero fee tx and want it to process faster rather than taking hours. The coder would simply allow use of RBF *IF* all the other transaction details match the first one, except the fee.

Thats the thin end of a huge wedge I think. When you start making double spends possible AND conditional upon a rule base then the rule base itself exposes a huge attack vector. The problem isn't lack of rules, it's the lack of an alternate protocol than supports the primary protocol where it's weak.

Will post a "picture" in a minute  Wink
noah tall
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 179


View Profile
December 22, 2015, 05:47:39 PM


Look, it's really quite simple.  More Fees + Higher Fees = Happy Blockstream
toknormal
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 1204


View Profile
December 22, 2015, 06:17:49 PM


Here's the problem mono-tiered protocols have (and why there are almost none in existence amongst network protocols).

Also why bitcoin has problems trying to be both a cash medium AND a settlement layer.

Those design objectives have conflicting priorities. The reason almost ALL logic protocols have some kind of articulation is because almost ALL design objectives have conflicting priorities. (If not, they deploy complimentary technologies and a horrible interface to "get the job done", e.g. SQL's strength was its versatility. Its weakness was programmability, so Microsoft created an abstracted object layer to articulate the two. Bitcoin+Lightning is another example or Bitcoin+Sidechains).

If you can get that articulation integrated in the same protocol you will have a much more powerful, secure and complete solution. (Athough it may not result in the biggest economy as I related in an earlier post. A lot of people make a lot of money from fixing problems in sh*t designs).





(In Dash, the green triangle is supported by InstantX of course, its complimentary protocol to the mining protocol which serves as the primary as far as confirmations go).


stan.distortion
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 309



View Profile
December 22, 2015, 06:47:12 PM

...
Every day that goes by proves that the world actually needs Dash. This space needs a project that proves you can govern and fund one of these projects with no centralization, support instant transactions and scales without centralizing the full nodes around a few large companies (which is also happening in BTC). BTC and Dash are really going in separate directions and I think we should start being careful about what we merge upstream; I'm definitely not merging RBF.

Good to hear. There's some sense in it, it clears up a messy part of the way transactions work but just putting it in like this... it should have had months of high-profile notification so businesses could prepare, bitpay, shapeshift, they're just two that have been put at risk by it and there's countless more. The majority consent for changes to Dashes code makes more sense now than ever and knowing the devs are looking out for this kind of thing and guarding against it is a great source of confidence, cheers.

Curious about the trolls methods? http://pastebin.com/irj4Fyd5
Manipulation of public discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bYAQ-ZZtEU
HappyComplex
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 27


View Profile
December 22, 2015, 06:51:43 PM

Is RBF actually getting implemented into bitcoin?

If so, it seems like this will force people who need faster than 10 minute transactions to switch to altcoins.
noah tall
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 179


View Profile
December 22, 2015, 07:17:54 PM

Is RBF actually getting implemented into bitcoin?

If so, it seems like this will force people who need faster than 10 minute transactions to switch to altcoins.

Their plan is to force people into using sidechains, which sound better.  Side > Alt.  Blockstream, Lightening, etc are going to make "them" more money.

stupid
TaoOfSaatoshi
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 994


Dash: A Digital Alternative To Cash


View Profile WWW
December 22, 2015, 07:22:39 PM

How to make DASH look good in a few simple steps.

1 - Continue development of Evolution.
2 - Continue to shun anything that ice's favorite dev (Peter Todd) thows out there.
3 - When posting an image, be sure to laugh at tinypic making you type icebreaker



Every day that goes by, DASH looks better and better.  Every day Bitcoin looks worse.

BEHOLD:



Wtf?! That's fscking sabotage, it drastically alters a high percentage of existing uses and needs to be reverted immediately and Peter Todds commit access revoked. Ffs, that effects way more users than a change of block size would and the main "feature" seems to be allowing bidding wars to be included in bloated blocks.

Should've known there was something dodgy about that guy when the unwelcome guests here in this thread where quoting him endlessly, the cancer's running deep in Bitcoin but every problem can be seen as an opportunity and Dash will come up with defences against this kind of BS, commits by consensus should stop this shit dead in its tracks.

Every day that goes by proves that the world actually needs Dash. This space needs a project that proves you can govern and fund one of these projects with no centralization, support instant transactions and scales without centralizing the full nodes around a few large companies (which is also happening in BTC). BTC and Dash are really going in separate directions and I think we should start being careful about what we merge upstream; I'm definitely not merging RBF.
That's awesome to hear. Our approach to scalability will be appealing to more users.

https://twitter.com/taoofsatoshi/status/679380666610540545

When you mix cash with digital payments, you get DASH!
Join -ƆASH Nation!
Buy Dash On EXMO
#DASH #DashNation
Cash Alternative TV
#CashIntoDash
Follow me on Twitter!
DASH.ORG | Dash Nation Slack
DashNation.com
Solarminer
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 487



View Profile WWW
December 22, 2015, 07:56:09 PM


Here's the problem mono-tiered protocols have (and why there are almost none in existence amongst network protocols).

Also why bitcoin has problems trying to be both a cash medium AND a settlement layer.


Toknormal, Your post above is great, but what can we do to make this understandable to the non-crypto initiated?  Maybe you could add some graphics to my post below and we could turn this into an info sheet for beginner bitcoiners to help them understand the concepts and look at Dash as an alternative. 

Let's say each transaction is a message, blocks hold messages in a letter, Blocktime is the time it takes to deliver the letter.  Call each block 1 day so it works with this model.

Bitcoin Transactions:
You pay a standard fee (Economy Mail delivery in 7 days)
You message gets queued to go into a letter
Other messages may go first if they paid a higher fee
Delivery expected in 7 days

You pay a higher fee (Express Mail - 1 day)
You message gets queued to go into a letter with higher priority
Delivery expected in 1 day.

Increasing block size.(Economy Mail Price with Express Mail Delivery)
You can now pay a standard fee
All messages get accepted and ship in a box
Delivery expected in 1 day.

Lightning Enhancement(Trusting a 3rd party vs Blockchain)
Pay with standard or higher fee
3rd party service looks at your message and calls recipient with transaction details.  You pay for phone call.
Letter arrives in 1-7 days to hopefully confirm what 3rd party service said.
You are trusting the 3rd party to convey correct details(no block chain security)

Transaction Bundling
(Coinbase/Bitpay transactions)
Pay with reduced fee
Coinbase accepts transactions and combines several into each message
Messages are put in letters with a 1 block delay
3rd party services can look at messages communicate with others 'in network' quickly.
Delivery is instant for in network, out of network is 2 days

RBI(Fee based, possible to get bumped)
Pay with a standard fee
Others pay with higher fee
Your message doesn't get enough priority and gets returned.

Dash Transactions
(Instantx with Evolution Implementation)
Pay with zero fee
Message sent via EMAIL!
Delivery ~1 second
No 3rd party trust needed, no fees, no risk, fast.

Join a lively chat style discussion on the CoinChat.Club Slack https://CoinChat.Club/
TaoOfSaatoshi
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 994


Dash: A Digital Alternative To Cash


View Profile WWW
December 22, 2015, 08:01:55 PM



https://twitter.com/taoofsatoshi/status/679389563391971329


When you mix cash with digital payments, you get DASH!
Join -ƆASH Nation!
Buy Dash On EXMO
#DASH #DashNation
Cash Alternative TV
#CashIntoDash
Follow me on Twitter!
DASH.ORG | Dash Nation Slack
DashNation.com
AlexGR
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1176



View Profile
December 22, 2015, 08:05:59 PM

It's extremely difficult to find a system that can have very low to no fees and that isn't simultaneously open to abuse by a script-kiddie... unless that system doesn't actually store a ledger but rather something like ...balances which shift.

Actually even then you can spam it by creating a lot of balance addresses that would require XX bytes to store, just by sending a no-fee tx of 1 satoshi / duff to a veeeery long list of random addresses. So, I really can't think of how you can make a promise of zero to very low fees and infinite scaling when you are also opening yourself to an attack vector.

But then again, I'm not the coder here.
ToScA-
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 326



View Profile
December 22, 2015, 08:20:12 PM

Hi!

How do I stake this coin?

Thanks!

There is no stake in the traditional sense. But can earn interest (currently 14% p.a.) for running a masternode (1000 Dash required). https://dashpay.atlassian.net/wiki/display/DOC/Masternode+guides

I see!

Thanks for the info!

noah tall
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 179


View Profile
December 22, 2015, 08:27:40 PM



TaoOfSaatoshi
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 994


Dash: A Digital Alternative To Cash


View Profile WWW
December 22, 2015, 08:33:25 PM

Yes, that's what I signed up for... bring it on!  Grin

When you mix cash with digital payments, you get DASH!
Join -ƆASH Nation!
Buy Dash On EXMO
#DASH #DashNation
Cash Alternative TV
#CashIntoDash
Follow me on Twitter!
DASH.ORG | Dash Nation Slack
DashNation.com
TanteStefana2
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050


View Profile
December 22, 2015, 09:03:58 PM

Sorry to screw with your post Tok, but this was too inaccurate:


Out of curiosity, how does RBF "murder" 0-conf transactions ?

P.S. Non-articulated protocols. The internet already binned them 50 years ago so no-one needs to be surprised. You can't fix one thing without screwing another. Elephant in the room.

Can't fix capacity without screwing with blocksize.
Can't fix anonymity without screwing with  transparency.
Can't fix speed without screwing with confirmations.




Another proud lifetime Dash Foundation member Smiley My TanteStefana account was hacked, Beware trading
"You'll never reach your destination if you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks."
Sir Winston Churchill  BTC: 12pu5nMDPEyUGu3HTbnUB5zY5RG65EQE5d
TanteStefana2
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050


View Profile
December 22, 2015, 09:07:52 PM


Actually, I think that there will always be a tiny minimal fee, no?  And Evan has submitted a plan for larger entities, like businesses, to pay a (small) fee, while keeping most user's access virtually free (probably some kind of tiny fee to mitigate attacks?) 

Another proud lifetime Dash Foundation member Smiley My TanteStefana account was hacked, Beware trading
"You'll never reach your destination if you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks."
Sir Winston Churchill  BTC: 12pu5nMDPEyUGu3HTbnUB5zY5RG65EQE5d
bigrcanada
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 588


View Profile WWW
December 22, 2015, 09:13:53 PM


Actually, I think that there will always be a tiny minimal fee, no?  And Evan has submitted a plan for larger entities, like businesses, to pay a (small) fee, while keeping most user's access virtually free (probably some kind of tiny fee to mitigate attacks?) 

As a merchant...I'm ok with a Fee.  There is no way that you can sustain a system without maintenance fees of some sort, i believe.

Proud lifetime DASH Foundation Member | First Brick & Mortar DASH Merchant |  Please visit DASH.org or DASHtalk.org for a list of merchants and information.
toknormal
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 1204


View Profile
December 22, 2015, 09:25:45 PM


Toknormal, Your post above is great, but what can we do to make this understandable to the non-crypto initiated?

It doesn't necessarily work - at least as far as widespread adoption is concerned. Explaining and communicating the technical advantages can only get you so far - e.g. to the "thinkers". To get the real economy to absorb the benefits needs either financial incentives or brute force.

The WIMPS system (Windows, Icons and Pull-Down Menus) went through 3 incarnations of convincing "thinkers" before it really went mainstream. And it wasn't the same technology - or company - that ultimately did it.

[1] XEROX invented it, [2] Apple sold it and [3] Microsoft dominated it.

The reason it got from [1] to [2] was because the boffins in Xerox managed to convince the technically literate at Apple. But the reason it got from [2] to [3] was ultimately because of the IBM monopoy's big achilles heel.


That was that they were mainframe manufacturers and couldn't re-tool fast enough to jump on the "micro" revolution. The "brute force" bit was that Bill Gates managed to get IBM to contract him to write their OS. Thus it went from PC-DOS to MS-DOS and Microsoft went from outsider to insider overnight. That gave them the monopoly they needed to sho-horn their own GUI into the market (first Windows 3.0 in 1990 and later Windows 95) and keep the lid on Apple's technological lead.

What Must Dash do Therefore ?

All industrial precedents must be studied and all possible historical lessons learned - both technological and commercial. What the 80's/90's lessons seem to say is that Dash must look for monopolies with an achilles heel which its unique advantages directly address. (These don't necessarily have to be big - they can be "mini-monopolies" or dominant interests in specific markets). In particular, it has to identify clear markets where the integrated approach trumps the technologically diverse one. With Apple it was desktop publishing and music. (In fact even Atari had a dominant market presence in music studios for a while with etheir GEM OS).

The obvious one for Dash is Bitpay and the POS market. Dash's instant transactions are infinitely more secure than bitcoin's and Bitpay is mass-marketing those. So the technical bit is there, it's the politics that's the unknown. It was politics that let Microsoft put their foot in the door of Apple's progress (at least at the start).

Look what's happening with Bitcoin - that's all politics as well because we now have a well funded, commercially interested party (Blockstream) that bought itself a significant chunk of the bitcoin core developer personnel. (I realise some of them are founders themselves but they're not the significant funders).

The way to get politics on your side is simply to have something that no-one else has or can easily reproduce. That can be to "own" certain markets as well just as owning certain technologies. It's a no brainer therefore that the corporate world would want to get its hands on at least some of the tiny group with commit access to bitcoin core - and that's exactly what they've been able to do.

There are many sectors I'm sure that Dash can put roots into, however large or small. Sometimes a tiny strategic presence can be as important as a large, high turnover one.

Here's one  I stumbled across the other day. This woman runs a business which secures creative work for artists and massively increases security for purchasers in terms of mitigating counterfeit copies of stuff like paintings. It appears to be a growing business but the "digital footprint" service is centralised. She sees bitcoin as a "competitor" and is wondering how to proceed. (In fact she see blockchains in general as competitors to her business).

People like that have "achilles heels" and are desperate to address them. They are fertile ground for products and services which come along and turn their weakness into a strength. They don't need to be sold on nerdy concepts of cryptocurrency, just given a solution with minimum hassle.

I'm not saying for sure that that type of business is Dash's target market - but it may well be one of them since Dash can probably do BOTH the securing of the digital footprint and also provide an online, secure micro payment service. I'm just highlighting that example as a case where marketing and identifying your commercial strengths are more important than explaining technical details.

P.S.

Sorry to screw with your post Tok, but this was too inaccurate:

Very nice ! You're too right.
TaoOfSaatoshi
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 994


Dash: A Digital Alternative To Cash


View Profile WWW
December 22, 2015, 09:27:49 PM

Actually, I think that there will always be a tiny minimal fee, no?
Nope.



Zero-fee transactions standard!

When you mix cash with digital payments, you get DASH!
Join -ƆASH Nation!
Buy Dash On EXMO
#DASH #DashNation
Cash Alternative TV
#CashIntoDash
Follow me on Twitter!
DASH.ORG | Dash Nation Slack
DashNation.com
Pages: « 1 ... 5597 5598 5599 5600 5601 5602 5603 5604 5605 5606 5607 5608 5609 5610 5611 5612 5613 5614 5615 5616 5617 5618 5619 5620 5621 5622 5623 5624 5625 5626 5627 5628 5629 5630 5631 5632 5633 5634 5635 5636 5637 5638 5639 5640 5641 5642 5643 5644 5645 5646 [5647] 5648 5649 5650 5651 5652 5653 5654 5655 5656 5657 5658 5659 5660 5661 5662 5663 5664 5665 5666 5667 5668 5669 5670 5671 5672 5673 5674 5675 5676 5677 5678 5679 5680 5681 5682 5683 5684 5685 5686 5687 5688 5689 5690 5691 5692 5693 5694 5695 5696 5697 ... 6422 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!