[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[TanteStefana2]

Hey ya'all, Evan just finally got around to sending me a picture of himself holding a mug I sent him  He didn't show the other side though, but this is from the main design Alex-ru posted a while back.  I can't find the thread on Dashtalk but it was originally with Bitcoin, in golden yellow and blue, but I'm not much of a Bitcoin person, and wanted a mug with only Dash, so I combined other designs from Alex, and added a heart and the red color (because the 2 tone looked so awesome with Bitcoin)  And here is Evan showing it off:



He's such a sweety, no?  



This is the wrap around design.  I just had Vista print make them.  They are pretty nice if you want to make one for yourself



Feel free to use it!

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[unununium]

This is the wrap around design.  I just had Vista print make them.  They are pretty nice if you want to make one for yourself



Feel free to use it!

Good idea! Thanks!

[BrainShutdown]

As far as economic incentive, is a million dollars really that much? If a government comes to you and says here have $10 million in cash you wouldn't hand over your masternodes? What about $50 million? I sure would. There are plenty of other cryptos to get behind. The entire marketcap of Dash is less than $25 million as we speak. The attack I've described would be trivial for somebody with a little bit of cash and motivation.

And if we are talking about governments... many MN are hosted on Clouds or larger VPN i assume... they would not even need to buy the DASH... just get control over the servers the MN is hosted.

Or DDOS them to reduce the total on the network, which would be easier.

Edit - albeit not as effective. Obviously if they can simply take them over that would be more effective

Take over...ok... in 30m (maybe less) all my nodes will be running elsewhere... the collateral IS NOT in the server...

[ddink7]

And higher hashing power is more secure.  The higher the hash rate the harder it is for anyone to pull off a coup of the blockchain.

This is not correct. If you hand mining over from a decentralized system of tens of thousands of GPU miners to one ASIC manufacturer it does not increase the network security.

For this reason we need to change the hashing algorithm from time-to-time, so that no ASIC can be produced (ASIC production takes a lot of time).

Honestly, it's just not worth it.  In a few months, the same amount of time that it would take to find a new algorithm, if not longer, and implement it, Dash will be on Evolution.  With Evolution, transactions will be approved by Masternode Quorums and the hash will only be used to randomly group these Masternodes into quorums.  The miners will still include transactions into the blockchain, however, they will have no choice as to which transactions to include.  They must only include locked transactions that passed a Masternode Quorum first.  If they try to include anything else, it will be rejected by the Masternode network and the miner will lose the block.

It simply will become a new and infinitely more secure network soon enough.  So please don't fret.  Once this is in place, it won't matter if we only have one single miner.

I'm not sure this makes the network any more secure at all...in fact it could very well weaken it. There is still nothing to prevent somebody from creating a malicious masternode. In standard POW systems, you have to achieve some level of hashrate close to 50% to be able to do some significant damage. (its worth mentioning there is general misconception that you need 51% hash power but that simply guarantees the attack will succeed. You can successfully execute double spends with much less hash power than that).

As a typical POW network grows (i.e Bitcoin), the overall hashrate will grow. That means a major player wishing to disrupt Bitcoin has to spend more to pull off the attack. For example if the US government wanted to kill Bitcoin they might have to spend billions designing, manufacturing, and deploying enough asics rapidly to overtake the network. At a certain point (we might already be there) that becomes impossible. The amount of money they have to spend would be astronomical, and don't forget the network would continue to grow as they move toward deployment so maybe they get done and they still don't have enough hash power.

Now as for Masternodes....like I said earlier there is nothing to stop somebody from creating a "bad" masternode. So if you're a major player, like the US government, now all of a sudden you don't have to build and deploy any hardware at all. They can spend the same amount of money producing asics, but instead just buy Dash. Once they have enough, they set up their bad masternodes and start wrecking things. The Masternode system significantly reduces the amount effort it would take for a new player to overtake the network.

Some people might point out that there is a new masternode selection method that takes age into account. So what? A bad player isn't capable of bringing them online slowly? In fact it would actually make more sense that they take a little bit of time. If they accumulate Dash over time setting up masternodes as they go, everything looks fine. It could even be mistaken as a healthy network because the price will go up from the purchase of so much Dash and more nodes are going online which at first glance appear valid. At a certain point they just need to "flip the switch" on their bad masternodes and the network now belongs to them.

To take over bitcoin the "bad guy" only needs to take over 2 or 3 pools... so you where saying...?

And why can't the same person bribe 2-3 of the largest masternode holders? Its the exact same thing. My point was about new players entering and trying to bring it down.  

It has to do with incentives.

The biggest Dash pool makes what, a few hundred thousand dollars a year? Maybe a million? Collusion would be relatively inexpensive, because other than future lost profits, they don't have any skin in the game. Masternode owners do have skin in the game; if they somehow are bribed to allow malicious transactions to go through, they lose a possibly significant portion of their net worth.

Lose future revenue from a pool? Or lose my entire (significant, if you are talking about the biggest holders) investment? Which is the bigger disincentive.

P.S. For what it's worth, I hope the government does start buying Dash and creating malicious masternodes. By the time they were in a position to mount a successful attack, they would have driven the price of Dash into the hundreds of dollars per coin, if not more. I could retire rich!

Not only that, but Evan could always fork Dash to Dash2 and restart the blockchain. Then the government has to attack that currency next...and then Dash3....and Dash4...

And none of this mentions the improbability of gaining access to and corrupting all 10 masternodes in a quorum.  It only takes 1 to screw up any chance.

It also can be complete luck that you own all 10 in a quorom and have only a fraction of the total. The system is designed to pick masternodes at random, there is no reason you can't get lucky. The same reason a person with minimal hash power can execute a double spend in Bitcoin. This was my point from the beginning. I'm not trying to attack the masternode network I'm simply saying that the idea of it being "infinitely more secure" compared to a typical POW system is just not true.

As far as economic incentive, is a million dollars really that much? If a government comes to you and says here have $10 million in cash you wouldn't hand over your masternodes? What about $50 million? I sure would. There are plenty of other cryptos to get behind. The entire marketcap of Dash is less than $25 million as we speak. The attack I've described would be trivial for somebody with a little bit of cash and motivation.

I am NOT very good with statistics, but wouldn't the odds of "getting lucky" be infinitesimal without owning many hundreds (or thousands) of masternodes? Wouldn't the odds of securing an entire 10 MN quorum be on the order of:

#MNs Controlled / (3500 * 3499 * 3498 * 3497 * 3496 * 3495 * 3494 * 3493 * 3492 * 3491)

Or am I wrong?

With respect to economic incentive, good point. But the amount offered would have to be significantly greater than the market value, I would imagine. Also, surely any government realizes it would be very easy to just launch an entire new blockchain with the same code, yes? So why bother?

[AzzAz]

I'm just imagining where price would get if someone try to buy i.e. 500 MNs. Ahahh.. please somebody do that! or 1000!

[DefendKebab]

Seems like we have a downwards breakout... I hope that 130 BTC support at 0.006 is not a "subtle" hint from whales on where it is going.

Looks like this wall is pulled , ideas?

[Lebubar]

snip


I am NOT very good with statistics, but wouldn't the odds of "getting lucky" be infinitesimal without owning many hundreds (or thousands) of masternodes? Wouldn't the odds of securing an entire 10 MN quorum be on the order of:

#MNs Controlled / (3500 * 3499 * 3498 * 3497 * 3496 * 3495 * 3494 * 3493 * 3492 * 3491)

Or am I wrong?

With respect to economic incentive, good point. But the amount offered would have to be significantly greater than the market value, I would imagine. Also, surely any government realizes it would be very easy to just launch an entire new blockchain with the same code, yes? So why bother?

Should be more like this :
% to be elected 10 in a raw =  (#MNs Controlled  / 3500 )  * (#MNs Controlled -1 ) / (3500 -1)  * ...  * (#MNs Controlled - 9) / (3500 - 9) *100

[Riseman]

Seems like we have a downwards breakout... I hope that 130 BTC support at 0.006 is not a "subtle" hint from whales on where it is going.

Looks like this wall is pulled , ideas?

Nothing particular. Maybe he decided to stop selling for a while and doesn't need the fake support wall anymore. In that case we'll not see the daily 50-ish BTC dumps in the next days.

[iCEBREAKER]

Seems like we have a downwards breakout... I hope that 130 BTC support at 0.006 is not a "subtle" hint from whales on where it is going.

Looks like this wall is pulled , ideas?

Let's make a soda machine.  Oh wait, that was already done.

How about coffee mugs?  Hmm, tried that too.

Well I'm stumped.

Only ~30 Masternodes worth of Dash between Here and Zero.

Remember when you guys believed the price was going to stay above 0.01?  Aww, sweet memories!

[Riseman]

Well, iCEBREAKER may actually be right (in his own trollish way). There's not going to be any fundamental reasons for growth this year. And all the traders and manipulators money are sucked into another coin which is now #2 in marketcap. So we can see a long period of "cheap masternodes" getting cheaper.

[TanteStefana2]

snip


I am NOT very good with statistics, but wouldn't the odds of "getting lucky" be infinitesimal without owning many hundreds (or thousands) of masternodes? Wouldn't the odds of securing an entire 10 MN quorum be on the order of:

#MNs Controlled / (3500 * 3499 * 3498 * 3497 * 3496 * 3495 * 3494 * 3493 * 3492 * 3491)

Or am I wrong?

With respect to economic incentive, good point. But the amount offered would have to be significantly greater than the market value, I would imagine. Also, surely any government realizes it would be very easy to just launch an entire new blockchain with the same code, yes? So why bother?

Should be more like this :
% to be elected 10 in a raw =  (#MNs Controlled  / 3500 )  * (#MNs Controlled -1 ) / (3500 -1)  * ...  * (#MNs Controlled - 9) / (3500 - 9) *100

Did I do this right?  If I were otoh and I still owned 500 MN (he is in the 400's now I believe) the chances of getting control would be 1 in 4.66676105146218 e-9 ?

I'd say that's pretty astronomical.  I'm not playing lottery again

[Chronikka]

snip


I am NOT very good with statistics, but wouldn't the odds of "getting lucky" be infinitesimal without owning many hundreds (or thousands) of masternodes? Wouldn't the odds of securing an entire 10 MN quorum be on the order of:

#MNs Controlled / (3500 * 3499 * 3498 * 3497 * 3496 * 3495 * 3494 * 3493 * 3492 * 3491)

Or am I wrong?

With respect to economic incentive, good point. But the amount offered would have to be significantly greater than the market value, I would imagine. Also, surely any government realizes it would be very easy to just launch an entire new blockchain with the same code, yes? So why bother?

Should be more like this :
% to be elected 10 in a raw =  (#MNs Controlled  / 3500 )  * (#MNs Controlled -1 ) / (3500 -1)  * ...  * (#MNs Controlled - 9) / (3500 - 9) *100

Did I do this right?  If I were otoh and I still owned 500 MN (he is in the 400's now I believe) the chances of getting control would be 1 in 4.66676105146218 e-9 ?

I'd say that's pretty astronomical.  I'm not playing lottery again

If you want to play a numbers game fine. 500 MN = 500,000 Dash held as collateral. If we round up to $4 per Dash, thats $2 million. Currently there are 3500 MN on the network. If somebody wanted to double that it would cost 3500 * 1000 * 4 = $14 million. That's nothing.

Not only that but as masternodes they would be generating Dash on their own, which of course would get dumped on the market to recoup some of the costs.

[tungfa]

iGaming Sector Nods At Altcoin Market Growth
(Dash mentioned)

http://bitcoinwiki.co/category/lamassu/

[LiteMine]

snip


I am NOT very good with statistics, but wouldn't the odds of "getting lucky" be infinitesimal without owning many hundreds (or thousands) of masternodes? Wouldn't the odds of securing an entire 10 MN quorum be on the order of:

#MNs Controlled / (3500 * 3499 * 3498 * 3497 * 3496 * 3495 * 3494 * 3493 * 3492 * 3491)

Or am I wrong?

With respect to economic incentive, good point. But the amount offered would have to be significantly greater than the market value, I would imagine. Also, surely any government realizes it would be very easy to just launch an entire new blockchain with the same code, yes? So why bother?

Should be more like this :
% to be elected 10 in a raw =  (#MNs Controlled  / 3500 )  * (#MNs Controlled -1 ) / (3500 -1)  * ...  * (#MNs Controlled - 9) / (3500 - 9) *100

Did I do this right?  If I were otoh and I still owned 500 MN (he is in the 400's now I believe) the chances of getting control would be 1 in 4.66676105146218 e-9 ?

I'd say that's pretty astronomical.  I'm not playing lottery again

If you want to play a numbers game fine. 500 MN = 500,000 Dash held as collateral. If we round up to $4 per Dash, thats $2 million. Currently there are 3500 MN on the network. If somebody wanted to double that it would cost 3500 * 1000 * 4 = $14 million. That's nothing.

Not only that but as masternodes they would be generating Dash on their own, which of course would get dumped on the market to recoup some of the costs.

To double the nodes is impossible at this point (more coins than now exists) and don't you think something might happen to the price along the way? The rise in valuation would be insane and there's no liquidity in the markets anyway, both factors limiting what an attacker could buy.

And the benefits would be hard to see, beyond saying that it would be "broken" in that case, but no REAL damage to the network since only one limited set of transactions would be unmasked. Whether or not the previous probabilities are correct, the system has been designed to make sure that bad actors can't hurt Dash.

[tungfa]

90,118 views on YT !
 
https://www.youtube.com/DarkcoinTV

(yes i know, the name still has to change, let me follow up on that)

[Chronikka]

To double the nodes is impossible at this point (more coins than now exists) and don't you think something might happen to the price along the way? The rise in valuation would be insane and there's no liquidity in the markets anyway, both factors limiting what an attacker could buy.

And the benefits would be hard to see, beyond saying that it would be "broken" in that case, but no REAL damage to the network. Whether or not the previous probabilities are correct, the system has been designed to make sure that bad actors can't hurt Dash.

To add 3500 new nodes yes you're right there is not enough supply, as of right now. However some of that money could easily be used to buy off current MN owners instead of creating new ones, or the money could be used to bring down some of the ones already operating. And they would not all be added at once anyway. As I mentioned earlier this would be done over time, possibly years to create the illusion of a healthy network. Yes the price would go up but by how much? Even at $50 per Dash the costs are not prohibitive. And when the price goes up, the amount they receive in return from dumping their generated Dash would go up as well. Not to mention this creates sell pressure helping to keep the price down.

I would also add that the low supply of Dash places a fundamental limit on the number of masternodes. Which means an attacker needs to acquire fewer MNs. I think this is something nobody has really considered. Earlier somebody made a comment about the Dash MN network being more decentralized over time. I think its going to be the complete opposite. It will be harder and harder for people to run their own MN over time simply because of scarcity, thus consolidating the network into a handful of people/entities. Its the centralized pool problem all over again.

[HinnomTX]

As stated elsewhere, there are not 3,500,000 DASH available to double the MN count. Max possible MN count is 6200. Costs to corner the market would rise astronomically as liquidity dried up.

No one here should be that concerned about Dash scarcity and MN status. There is no scarcity of dollars which may soon seek to obtain Dash, and when the price of a masternode starts looking similar to buying a share Berkshire A stock, then the bar for masternode status will be lowered from 1000 Dash to 500. Like a stock split.

A determined nation state can inflict serious damage to Bitcoin, Dash or any other crypto, at least temporarily, with coordinated ISP filtering, as almost all crypto traffic is transmitted in the clear.  Cost  to implement would be peanuts, but the loss of confidence could take years to recover from. The crypto scene would be forced underground to Tor, Maidsafe, or other encrypted routing platform. Good luck with spreading adoption after that.

[TanteStefana2]

snip


I am NOT very good with statistics, but wouldn't the odds of "getting lucky" be infinitesimal without owning many hundreds (or thousands) of masternodes? Wouldn't the odds of securing an entire 10 MN quorum be on the order of:

#MNs Controlled / (3500 * 3499 * 3498 * 3497 * 3496 * 3495 * 3494 * 3493 * 3492 * 3491)

Or am I wrong?

With respect to economic incentive, good point. But the amount offered would have to be significantly greater than the market value, I would imagine. Also, surely any government realizes it would be very easy to just launch an entire new blockchain with the same code, yes? So why bother?

Should be more like this :
% to be elected 10 in a raw =  (#MNs Controlled  / 3500 )  * (#MNs Controlled -1 ) / (3500 -1)  * ...  * (#MNs Controlled - 9) / (3500 - 9) *100

Did I do this right?  If I were otoh and I still owned 500 MN (he is in the 400's now I believe) the chances of getting control would be 1 in 4.66676105146218 e-9 ?

I'd say that's pretty astronomical.  I'm not playing lottery again

If you want to play a numbers game fine. 500 MN = 500,000 Dash held as collateral. If we round up to $4 per Dash, thats $2 million. Currently there are 3500 MN on the network. If somebody wanted to double that it would cost 3500 * 1000 * 4 = $14 million. That's nothing.

Not only that but as masternodes they would be generating Dash on their own, which of course would get dumped on the market to recoup some of the costs.

Boy, that sounds like a serious flaw in Dash, better not go anywhere near it!

[TanteStefana2]

To double the nodes is impossible at this point (more coins than now exists) and don't you think something might happen to the price along the way? The rise in valuation would be insane and there's no liquidity in the markets anyway, both factors limiting what an attacker could buy.

And the benefits would be hard to see, beyond saying that it would be "broken" in that case, but no REAL damage to the network. Whether or not the previous probabilities are correct, the system has been designed to make sure that bad actors can't hurt Dash.

To add 3500 new nodes yes you're right there is not enough supply, as of right now. However some of that money could easily be used to buy off current MN owners instead of creating new ones, or the money could be used to bring down some of the ones already operating. And they would not all be added at once anyway. As I mentioned earlier this would be done over time, possibly years to create the illusion of a healthy network. Yes the price would go up but by how much? Even at $50 per Dash the costs are not prohibitive. And when the price goes up, the amount they receive in return from dumping their generated Dash would go up as well. Not to mention this creates sell pressure helping to keep the price down.

I would also add that the low supply of Dash places a fundamental limit on the number of masternodes. Which means an attacker needs to acquire fewer MNs. I think this is something nobody has really considered. Earlier somebody made a comment about the Dash MN network being more decentralized over time. I think its going to be the complete opposite. It will be harder and harder for people to run their own MN over time simply because of scarcity, thus consolidating the network into a handful of people/entities. Its the centralized pool problem all over again.

Seriously, you could do the same thing to Bitcoin, or any coin for that matter.  And what would happen?  People would abandon it and start another coin.  Nobody with money is stupid enough to go down that dead end.  Not even the Government is stupid enough.  They actually have a few people in their employ that will raise the red flag and stop the more powerful stupid people from doing such a dumb thing.

[TanteStefana2]

found the link for the other coffee cup designs, which are all awesome! 

https://dashtalk.org/threads/dash-promo-cups.7195/

This is my favorite, and what I tried to create with a Dash only theme