[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[tungfa]

One of the most popular Russain crypto-payment service https://7pay.in added DASH as payment option.
Russian citizens can now pay their bills for internet and mobile phones with DASH.

Additional info about this service in English: http://cointelegraph.com/news/russians-can-pay-internet-and-phone-bills-with-bitcoin-without-fees
 

[bigrcanada1]

I suppose that based on what your are saying there is built in volatility.

Yes - that's what I'm saying. There are 2 distinct types of currencies:

[1] - ones with built in stability
[2] - ones with built in volatility

Limited supply commodities, Bitcoin, Dash and such are of type [2]. Pegged, and asset backed currencies such as the ones I mentioned are of type 1.

I guess my thought is if graphed out over several years...the price would move up an down...maybe even drastically at times...but over the long period, using averages...the "investment" would increase in value.  Thoughts?

These types of analyses are a bit incomplete without qualifying the currency pair. So when we use terminology like "stability", "liquidity" or even "price" we need to say "stability against what", "liquidity in what" and "price against what". For example the stable cryptos I mentioned above are designed to be stable against the dollar. But they are volatile against bitcoin. Dash gets more "dollar" liquidity by raising its price against the dollar but it doesn't get any more Dash liquidity by doing that (it only gets that through mining).

When you say "the price moved up and down" I'm not sure if you meant the Dash price against bitcoin, the bitcoin price against the dollar (which would in turn imply the Dash price against the dollar) or the price of goods and services denominated in Dash (which is what I think you meant).

Basically, if you priced retail goods in a limited supply crypto, then there would be far to much volatility for commerce to function I imagine. The volatility wouldn't only come from Forex trading (or change in value against other currencies). It would simply come from the expansions and contractions in the economy. This would be less as the marketcap grew obviously but it would still be there.

I think thats the problem that Yanis Varoufakis had with bitcoin. He just thought it was ridiculous straight off the bat, but I think he misidentified the role that cryptocurrencies are strongest in. He was seeing them as an actual front door currency rather than a base asset.

This makes some sense to me.  I guess, if I'm interpreting this right...DASH, BTC is more like gold right?  Could not a digital currency act as a hybrid....both currency and asset?  This is beyond my level..so I'm learning.  I have always thought of BTC & DASH as a hybrid of those too items.

[toknormal]

Could not a digital currency act as a hybrid....both currency and asset?  This is beyond my level..so I'm learning.  I have always thought of BTC & DASH as a hybrid of those too items.

Thats what Bitshares does. The shares are the "asset" and the Bit Assets (like BitUSD) are the "currencies".

When more currency is required, it's borrowed into existence backed by BTS collateral at a reserve ratio of greater then 1. If the value of the currency goes above the peg there's a gain available in shorting it. If it goes below there's a gain in buying it. All the time, if more of the currency gets created it increases the value of the "shares".

[tungfa]

https://buydash.uk
now live for UK Customers
(run by well known DT member: calnaughtonjnr)

[afbitcoins]

https://buydash.uk
now live for UK Customers
(run by well known DT member: calnaughtonjnr)

Looks good. Just wondering if they buy aswell or only sell ?

[BiteMyShinyMetalAss]

https://buydash.uk
now live for UK Customers
(run by well known DT member: calnaughtonjnr)

Looks good. Just wondering if they buy aswell or only sell ?

Does not matter. Its like 19% above the market price.
Current DASH price 4.1$, their offer 4.9$ So the services does not matter, nothing to be happy for.

[TanteStefana2]

https://buydash.uk
now live for UK Customers
(run by well known DT member: calnaughtonjnr)

Looks good. Just wondering if they buy aswell or only sell ?

Does not matter. Its like 19% above the market price.
Current DASH price 4.1$, their offer 4.9$ So the services does not matter, nothing to be happy for.

Actually, more like 2%, no?

[UdjinM6]

http://explorer.dash.org/block/000000000010266b368e4a656ce3cb3bbcb9634efc132caacf02705786486562

Code:

Generation: 3.88010205

[BiteMyShinyMetalAss]

https://buydash.uk
now live for UK Customers
(run by well known DT member: calnaughtonjnr)

Looks good. Just wondering if they buy aswell or only sell ?

Does not matter. Its like 19% above the market price.
Current DASH price 4.1$, their offer 4.9$ So the services does not matter, nothing to be happy for.

Actually, more like 2%, no?

No. 4.1$ == 100%; 4.9$ == x; x=4.9 *100 / 4.1 =  119.5% 

[splawik21]

http://explorer.dash.org/block/000000000010266b368e4a656ce3cb3bbcb9634efc132caacf02705786486562

Code:

Generation: 3.88010205

So it happened. The day has came. -7%

[toknormal]

Wow, the network nodecount keeps climbing. We are in never-before explored territory.

Could the Dash price come down please cos I need to get back 500 Dash I dumped when my kitchen ceiling came crashing down due to a leaky water tank and insurance knocked back my claim on a technicality.

(See ? Dash can do home insurance as well  )

[VeritasSapere]

The only stable currencies are ones that are designed to be stable (i.e. pegged) against some reference asset or currency.

Dash is a risk asset - it is not monetarily designed to be stable. It's designed to reflect the balance of supply and demand. (It can't do that AND be stable since those priorities are in conflict).

I think there's confusion about currencies being good if they're "stable". Yes - if that's what they're designed to do (for example Fiat responds to demand for more liquidity by issuing more currency and adjusting interest rates, not necessarily through price inflation so it's more stable than, say a limited supply commodity like gold).

Cryptocurrencies like Dash and bitcoin however cannot do this. They respond to demands for liquidity through price inflation.

The cryptocurrencies which are designed for stability are things like Bitshares (the assets - not the shares) or NuBits. Have a look at the dollar price for BitUSD  or NuBits or Tether.

What do you notice ? Rock solid against the dollar - even if they are all over the place against bitcoin. That's because they were designed to be used as currencies, actual trading currencies in which prices of goods and services could be denominated and accordingly they have some kind of stability against volatility built in. They use a variety of mechanisms for this - some of which are very elegant such as playing the demand for risk assets off against the demand for stable currency in order for one to support the other and keep the dollar value pegged through market forces.

Even though Bitcoin and Dash are effective stores of value, I don't see them ever being used as currencies in the sense that goods and services will be priced in those denominations.

Bitpay does for Bitcoin what BitAssets do for Bitshares - provides it with a liquidity response buffer in a stable currency against the goods and services which are being traded. That means that Overstock can price their stuff in dollars, receive payment in bitcoin, and actually receive the amount of dollars that they priced the good in, even if the bitcoin supply/demand balance moved since they set their prices.

So we should not judge Dash on it's stability. We should judge it on it's ability to reflect supply and demand for Dash  

Great fun all this stuff isn't it !  

I think Dash is a currency, this question has been rather fundamental in the blocksize debate in Bitcoin recently. Bitcoin is a commodity money like the precious metal coins of the past. Its volatility will decrease as its market capitalization grows, it will most likely never be as stable as a fiat currency but that is alright, cryptocurrencies like Dash have other advantages over fiat currency.

I would like to know how the rest of the Dash community feels about this question, when Dash transactional capacity is reached, should the blocksize limit be increased?

[VeritasSapere]

I suppose that based on what your are saying there is built in volatility.

Yes - that's what I'm saying. There are 2 distinct types of currencies:

[1] - ones with built in stability
[2] - ones with built in volatility

Limited supply commodities, Bitcoin, Dash and such are of type [2]. Pegged, and asset backed currencies such as the ones I mentioned are of type 1.

I guess my thought is if graphed out over several years...the price would move up an down...maybe even drastically at times...but over the long period, using averages...the "investment" would increase in value.  Thoughts?

These types of analyses are a bit incomplete without qualifying the currency pair. So when we use terminology like "stability", "liquidity" or even "price" we need to say "stability against what", "liquidity in what" and "price against what". For example the stable cryptos I mentioned above are designed to be stable against the dollar. But they are volatile against bitcoin. Dash gets more "dollar" liquidity by raising its price against the dollar but it doesn't get any more Dash liquidity by doing that (it only gets that through mining).

When you say "the price moved up and down" I'm not sure if you meant the Dash price against bitcoin, the bitcoin price against the dollar (which would in turn imply the Dash price against the dollar) or the price of goods and services denominated in Dash (which is what I think you meant).

Basically, if you priced retail goods in a limited supply crypto, then there would be far to much volatility for commerce to function I imagine. The volatility wouldn't only come from Forex trading (or change in value against other currencies). It would simply come from the expansions and contractions in the economy. This would be less as the marketcap grew obviously but it would still be there.

I think thats the problem that Yanis Varoufakis had with bitcoin. He just thought it was ridiculous straight off the bat, but I think he misidentified the role that cryptocurrencies are strongest in. He was seeing them as an actual front door currency rather than a base asset.

This makes some sense to me.  I guess, if I'm interpreting this right...DASH, BTC is more like gold right?  Could not a digital currency act as a hybrid....both currency and asset?  This is beyond my level..so I'm learning.  I have always thought of BTC & DASH as a hybrid of those too items.

Yes exactly, cryptocurrency is both an asset and a currency as well as many more things. This question has become fundamental in the Bitcoin blocksize debate, the other side argues that Bitcoin is not a currency which is why transaction cost, reliability and ease of use does not matter. I strongly disagree of course.

The blocksize debate in Bitcoin has been very informative in our understanding of cryptocurrencies. The thinking developed over the last few months certainly can be applied to Dash as well. My hope is that this existential crisis within Bitcoin is solved, though if it is not solved I suspect that Dash might have already solved some of these problems, either way I expect Dash to have bright future.

[toknormal]

Its volatility will decrease as its market capitalization grows, it will most likely never be as stable as a fiat currency but that is alright

You may be right but there are two things at play here regarding people's view of whether something is "a currency" or not:

[1] - the design priorities of the monetary medium
[2] - the extent to which traders operate in a multi or single currency market

If you're en exporter or importer (I don't mean that geographically but rather monetarily in the sense that your customer base may pay you in a variety of currencies) then it probably isn't "alright" that crypto isn't as stable as fiat because you'll get your margins blown away all the time by exchange rate fluctuations. You end up spending more time buying hedging derivatives than selling teddy bears.

If the entire economy ran on Dash and your entire sales as well as your expenses were denominated in Dash, then your remark that "it will most likely never be as stable as a fiat currency but that is alright" might be ok.

It all depends. But in fairness you've got to acknowledge that the market so far doesn't agree with you. Almost without exception the major early adopters of bitcoin from Overstock to Dish do not see bitcoin as a currency, they see it as an asset base with which to back a currency denominated transaction. The reason they don't see it as a currency is because they can't afford to and because bitcoin is not designed to keep prices stable. That is the role of central banks and in their absence you need some mechanism that performs that function (such as the 'stable currency' variety cryptos have that I cited a few posts back).

[VeritasSapere]

Its volatility will decrease as its market capitalization grows, it will most likely never be as stable as a fiat currency but that is alright

You may be right but there are two things at play here regarding people's view of whether something is "a currency" or not:

[1] - the design priorities of the monetary medium
[2] - the extent to which traders operate in a multi or single currency market

If you're en exporter or importer (I don't mean that geographically but rather monetarily in the sense that your customer base may pay you in a variety of currencies) then it probably isn't "alright" that crypto isn't as stable as fiat because you'll get your margins blown away all the time by exchange rate fluctuations. You end up spending more time buying hedging derivatives than selling teddy bears.

I can see your point here, in the case of brick and mortar stores it would not make sense to price products in a volatile cryptocurrency. However the products do not need to be priced in a volatile cryptocurrency for people to use that cryptocurrency for their purchases. In the same way that many products are still priced in Fiat today, even though we pay in cryptocurrency, the conversion happens automatically. One of the advantages of programmable money. Online prices can be automatically updated of course so it is not as much of a problem on that front.

If the entire economy ran on Dash and your entire sales as well as your expenses were denominated in Dash, then your remark that "it will most likely never be as stable as a fiat currency but that is alright" might be ok.

Some use cases would indeed require a more stable currency, the pegged cryptocurrencies you mentioned can serve that purpose well, even in the future when there are no more fiats, cryptocurrencies can be pegged to other commodities as well. However I do think that with a much higher market capitalization such cryptocurrencies might even become stable enough for such use cases.

I suppose for me, I realize that the most profound changes in our civilization because of cryptocurrency will be brought about because of the masses adopting a cryptocurrency as a currency. I think this is absolutely critical in the more revolutionary sense.

It all depends. But in fairness you've got to acknowledge that the market so far doesn't agree with you. Almost without exception the major early adopters of bitcoin from Overstock to Dish do not see bitcoin as a currency, they see it as an asset base with which to back a currency denominated transaction. The reason they don't see it as a currency is because they can't afford to and because bitcoin is not designed to keep prices stable. That is the role of central banks and in their absence you need some mechanism that performs that function (such as the 'stable currency' variety cryptos have that I cited a few posts back).

We will only know what the market truly thinks once the fork happens, that will be the moment of truth. This whole the majority does not agree with you about your conception of Bitcoin gets a bit old, both sides are shouting this to each other. It does not make either side right, I think Bitcoin and Dash are both fundamentally currencies, much like the commodity money of ancient times in the form of precious metal coins. If Dash is not money, why is it called Digital Cash?

I suppose I do fundamentally disagree with the notion that we need some sort of mechanism to keep currencies stable, I think the free market mechanism works better for cryptocurrencies. At least I prefer the volatility that cryptocurrencies have compared to the race to the bottom that Fiat represents. On many levels it will require a rethinking of how we do business, change our theories on economics and transform our culture. Not everything in the cryptocurrency revolution can be seen through the lens of more mainstream economics.

[toknormal]

...However the products do not need to be priced in a volatile cryptocurrency for people to use that cryptocurrency for their purchases.

Yes. This is it.

I see a clear decoupling between the two occurring with the advent of crypto type assets.

[VeritasSapere]

...However the products do not need to be priced in a volatile cryptocurrency for people to use that cryptocurrency for their purchases.

Yes. This is it.

I see a clear decoupling between the two occurring with the advent of crypto type assets.

It really is, I can imagine a future where it is irrelevant what cryptocurrency you or the merchant holds. It is just instantly and automaticly converted. Something like shapeshift is a great example of this.

[toknormal]

I see a clear decoupling between the two occurring with the advent of crypto type assets.

P.S. Thats why concepts like sidechains are a bit ridiculous to me. Kind of like building a train that comes with rails attached so they could do away with the need for tracks.

Very clever people sometimes do very stupid things.

[VeritasSapere]

I see a clear decoupling between the two occurring with the advent of crypto type assets.

P.S. Thats why concepts like sidechains are a bit ridiculous to me. Kind of like building a train that comes with rails attached so they could do away with the need for tracks.

Very clever people sometimes do very stupid things.

Agreed, I find this whole concept that the solution to scaling Bitcoin is "off chain solutions" completely ridiculous. In my opinion that is not a solution to scaling Bitcoin directly at all, the very opposite actually, it is an acknowledgement of the failure to actually scale Bitcoin directly.

In regards to earlier comments, whether this blocksize debate is part of some sort of grand conspiracy or not. My involvement in the blocksize debate is because of my believe in the governance mechanism of Bitcoin can overcome such manipulations, to discuss rationally, to allow the market place of ideas to thrive. Even if it is not a battle I will win, it is a fight worth fighting, for the good of the world. We will win the war I am sure of that, even if it is in the form of an alternative cryptocurrency like Dash.

[toknormal]

Something like shapeshift is a great example of this.

So it is..I hadn't thought of that.