[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[Minotaur26]

For example, and this is just hypothetical lets say Coinbase requires a 10K DASH payment ahead of time to integrate Dash to their service. But we decide to split it up in 6 payments not to clutter the budget space. Then when the news is announced the price of Dash rallies. Does that mean that by the 4th month we are going to start saying we should not be paying Coinbase their full 10K because the price went up?  Of course not

Society has already met this problem - using risk assets as currency for medium term contracts in a dynamic economy - and discovered it didn't work (for the same reasons as Dash is finding it doesn't work).

Why not just fast forward to the obvious solution that's already in use by the rest of the human race - Dash futures. That's what futures are for. No manufacturing company in existence (at least any that exports their products) would ever have survived without such derivatives.

It's the price you have to pay for using a risk asset as money. (Or at least find some equivalent that's appropriate to the problem at hand). Surely the marketcap's big enough by now for it to be worthwhile for some 3rd party to deliver such a product. (Dare I say 'financial instrument' ?    )

All it needs is a party who can broker two sides - one that takes the long side and another that takes the short side. What comes out of the conjugate is a future derivative that can be issued to the blockchain budget applicant which has a stable value regardless of the volatility between Dash/BTC or Dash/USD.

(P.S. in case anyone thinks that's an ambitious plan, it isn't. There are plenty of takers for both sides - just look at any order book on any Dash exchange).

(P.P.S. Why do manufacturing companies [like car manufacturers] in particular use derivatives ? For the exact same reason that Dash budget is discovering: they budget based on current prices but it takes 6 months to get their product into the market. They need everything to come in on budget - even if the price of aluminium tanks or pumps during that time. So they fix ALL their prices, both selling and purchasing at the start of the contract cycle using derivatives. That way both contractors and customers are happy. Without derivatives there's always a loser).

See the thing is that without the volatility it would be way harder to get more adoption and new partners. Established crypto businesses know they bring value into the relationship at this point and they hope that as a new partnership is announced the value of the network and the price would go up. They care a lot more about the potential upside than about the potential loss.

Take away that volatility and there is a lot less interest. It is one of those things that if you "fix it" it has unintended consequences.

This will not be the case later on, as Dash is bigger and more established we will have a lot more leverage in the negotiation and will be able to dictate the terms we want. For the time being we need to be more flexible.

[1715222945]

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[1715222945]

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[110110101]

T-shirt Dash 

That looks pretty darn slick!

[eduffield]

So What Happened?
Super Block Payed out but some of the proposals that were voted in didn't get paid.

Anarchapulco - Not Paid 140 Dash
https://dashninja.pl/budgetdetails.html?budgetid=DASH-at-Anarchapulco

Core Team Extra - Not Paid 625 Dash
https://dashninja.pl/budgetdetails.html?budgetid=Core-Team-Xtra-Fixed

Wifi Portal - Not Paid 200 Dash
https://dashninja.pl/budgetdetails.html?budgetid=Wifi-Portal

Total Not Paid 965 DASH

---------------------------------------------------

These Were Paid:

Soda Machine Reiumbursement - Paid 100 Dash
https://dashninja.pl/budgetdetails.html?budgetid=soda-reimbursement

Satoshi Roundtable - Paid 717.700 Dash
https://dashninja.pl/budgetdetails.html?budgetid=satoshi-roundtable

Lamassu Integration - Paid 610.260 Dash
https://dashninja.pl/budgetdetails.html?budgetid=lamassu-integration

Dash.org - Paid 2100 Dash
https://dashninja.pl/budgetdetails.html?budgetid=dash-org

Public Awareness - Paid 2,156 Dash
https://dashninja.pl/budgetdetails.html?budgetid=public-awareness

Core Team - Paid 1,176 Dash
https://dashninja.pl/budgetdetails.html?budgetid=core-team

Total Paid 6859.96 Dash
Total Not Paid 965 Dash
Total That should be paid with these budgets is 7824.96
(I'm not sure if that is over the limit?)

 7449 DASH total available budget is the answer. Sorry. The core team extra fucked the wifi portal and anarchopolca, there was never any extra funds. Sucks that happened cause now all three didn't get paid.

Hello! The budget system was finalized and at the time these three proposals were not established (All three were submitted too late). Budgets must be submitted at least 24 hours before the budget system in finalized. This means they must be submitted 3 days before the budgets are paid out.

v12.1 Improvements:
- I am going to add some warnings to v12.1 when you add a proposal to let the proposer know they should move the budget proposal to the next month if they're within that finalization period.
- We also need to vote on if we want to support contracts in the new system, I'll put a proposal up before I begin work on that next week

Sorry for the confusion, but it's not a bug, everything is working great  

Thank you for the explanation. One more question. The Wifi Portal seems to have received 200 DASH. http://explorer.dashninja.pl/address/XmTZLAEJYWBbrKRxfosSzacVPpoaHaBNsU

Does that mean it was funded then? I guess the lesson I learned here is not to trust all these websites that post this budget information.

Yep, the WifiPortal was established at finalization.

/dash-cli mnfinalbudget show

    "main" : {
        "FeeTX" : "8db1f4ae92e0bbc86cf91b6407aad4141aa738917efd1186a2b5cd11bbcf3767",
        "Hash" : "9b7682a1a4ef8c6d0803f33e643ae911f4e1bd47c98f94f0f01e9815050fb644",
        "BlockStart" : 415400,
        "BlockEnd" : 415408,
        "Proposals" : "2mb-blocksize,lamassu-integration,core-team,dash-org,soda-reimbursement,public-awareness,satoshi-roundtable,Wifi-Portal,ds-liquidity",
        "VoteCount" : 2899,
        "Status" : "OK",
        "IsValid" : false,
        "IsValidReason" : "Older than current blockHeight"
    },

[toknormal]

See the thing is that without the volatility it would be way harder to get more adoption and new partners. Established crypto businesses know they bring value into the relationship at this point and they hope that as a new partnership is announced the value of the network and the price would go up. They care a lot more about the potential upside than about the potential loss.

Take away that volatility and there is a lot less interest. It is one of those things that if you "fix it" it has unintended consequences.

This will not be the case later on, as Dash is bigger and more established we will have a lot more leverage in the negotiation and will be able to dictate the terms we want. For the time being we need to be more flexible.

Thats a good point Minotaur, but I'm trying to make the case for a more generalised financial model for Dash. What you've identified in your post is a market for risk assets, thats all. But there are loads of markets for risk assets, not all of them crypto currencies. Dash is not unique in supplying volatility to a financial trading market.

Here's the thing: Bitcoin has plenty of backing now, but it has kind of lost the plot as a monetary unit. Satoshi created a very well defined monetary unit of exchange. Then he disappeared and left Gavin to manage the code. Then Gavin gave GitHub access to a bunch of guys that he thought were clever programmers. Then they got bought up by some venture capitalists.

Now bitcoin is a rudderless ship because it's being directed by people who cannot escape from their "fiat" way of seeing things. In particular, Greg Maxwell who is at once a very clever programmer and at the same time absolutely void of imagination as to how a new monetary system could work. (IMO that's because he doesn't fully understand how the old one worked). The reason I name him in particular is because he's symbolic of the legacy model to the point that he's obsessed with coding it into re-incarnation in the crypto currency domain with its multiple, corporately managed girdles.

Expecting someone like Greg Maxwell to adequately implement digitally money is kind of like asking Mozart to write Jumping Jack Flash and for it to sound good.
Ain't gonna happen.

Witness sidechains - a monetary clown to bitcoin’s lion.

Returning to my previous post and to your reply, I think that Dash needs to start thinking about supporting the two distinct demands for monetary media:

[1] - risk assets
[2] - stable currencies

The history of money is characterised by these two demands playing off against each other because there is always a balance of demand for both. Risk assets are demanded by the type of market you highlighted in your post.

But there is a huge market who do not make their money from investing in currency. They make it from manufacturing products (even some now emerging as applicants for Dash blockchain funding). Those users of currency require the exact opposite from risk asset investors - they need their manufacturing estimates come in on budget months or years from when the planning was done. You can't do that with a risk asset, you need a derivative.

Those markets are huge. Potentially far bigger that simple forex investment because most people who use money are using it to build something, not to hold and hope that it accrues in value. Therefore, Dash needs to work for them as well and start thinking about a derivative product which will do the exact opposite of what Dash does on the exchanges. i.e, when Dash tanks the derivative accrues value. When Dash surges the derivative declines.

At the very least I think we need to develop a consciousness around the distinction between risk assets and currency (or “money and currency” as Mike Maloney calls it). Doing that will keep Dash at the bleeding edge, not just in technological terms but in monetary terms as well.

[Bridgewater]

Is the .onion site down or is it just me?

Just checked. dashorg64cjvj4s3.onion isn't working for me either.  

[TaoOfSaatoshi]

http://dashvotetracker.com/

https://twitter.com/taoofsatoshi/status/696106799473233921

[bertlebbert]

See the thing is that without the volatility it would be way harder to get more adoption and new partners. Established crypto businesses know they bring value into the relationship at this point and they hope that as a new partnership is announced the value of the network and the price would go up. They care a lot more about the potential upside than about the potential loss.

Take away that volatility and there is a lot less interest. It is one of those things that if you "fix it" it has unintended consequences.

This will not be the case later on, as Dash is bigger and more established we will have a lot more leverage in the negotiation and will be able to dictate the terms we want. For the time being we need to be more flexible.

Thats a good point Minotaur, but I'm trying to make the case for a more generalised financial model for Dash. What you've identified in your post is a market for risk assets, thats all. But there are loads of markets for risk assets, not all of them crypto currencies. Dash is not unique in supplying volatility to a financial trading market.

Here's the thing: Bitcoin has plenty of backing now, but it has kind of lost the plot as a monetary unit. Satoshi created a very well defined monetary unit of exchange. Then he disappeared and left Gavin to manage the code. Then Gavin gave GitHub access to a bunch of guys that he thought were clever programmers. Then they got bought up by some venture capitalists.

Now bitcoin is a rudderless ship because it's being directed by people who cannot escape from their "fiat" way of seeing things. In particular, Greg Maxwell who is at once a very clever programmer and at the same time absolutely void of imagination as to how a new monetary system could work. (IMO that's because he doesn't fully understand how the old one worked). The reason I name him in particular is because he's symbolic of the legacy model to the point that he's obsessed with coding it into re-incarnation in the crypto currency domain with its multiple, corporately managed girdles.

Expecting someone like Greg Maxwell to adequately implement digitally money is kind of like asking Mozart to write Jumping Jack Flash and for it to sound good.
Ain't gonna happen.

Witness sidechains - a monetary clown to bitcoin’s lion.

Returning to my previous post and to your reply, I think that Dash needs to start thinking about supporting the two distinct demands for monetary media:

[1] - risk assets
[2] - stable currencies

The history of money is characterised by these two demands playing off against each other because there is always a balance of demand for both. Risk assets are demanded by the type of market you highlighted in your post.

But there is a huge market who do not make their money from investing in currency. They make it from manufacturing products. Those users of currency require the exact opposite from risk asset investors - they require that their manufacturing estimates come in on budget months or years from when the planning was done. You can't do that with a risk asset, you need a derivative.

Those markets are huge. Potentially far bigger that simple forex investment because most people who use money are using it to but something, not to hold and hope that it accrues in value. Therefore, Dash needs to work for them as well and start thinking about a derivative product which will do the exact opposite of what Dash does on the exchanges. i.e, when Dash tanks the derivative accrues value. When Dash surges the derivative declines.

At the very least I think we need to develop a consciousness around the distinction between risk assets and currency (or “money and currency” as Mike Maloney calls it). Doing that will keep Dash at the bleeding edge, not just in technological terms but in monetary terms as well.

Yep, just need someone willing to accomodate forward sales of Dash for fiat (ie. futures and options derivatives)... put that on the 'to do' list.

[ra_pl]

T-shirt Dash 

That looks pretty darn slick!

I have for sale. In fact after producing they are a genius!

[toknormal]

Here's some links that I think will preview what applicants for blockchain funding will have to deal with:

Minotaur has highlighted a market for whom exchange rate fluctuations are a GOOD thing. But here are some for whom it's a BAD thing. IMO, Dash needs do develop a consciousness about the distinct requirements of both since they are in conflict.

In systems development theory, when you have conflicting priorities, the solution is to address then independently. (i.e, you create distinct products for each market). Dash is focused on the risk-asset product, not the currency product, which IMO is exactly where its priorities should lie. I don't think that Dash itself needs to supply the stable currency derivative which will work for commercial markets since 3rd parties usually supply such financial instruments.

But at the same time it should be conscious of the fact that the main market is for currency (albeit backed by a risk asset). For example, here are markets where people actually pay hard cash solely for the currency NOT to change in value between their budget date and manufacturing date. (So none of these markets would buy Dash - only a derivative of Dash):

http://www.barchart.com/futures/commodities/ITI

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970203731004576045680094212132

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323701904578277711311594082

Operational hedging (as opposed to monetary hedging)

[Minotaur26]

Here's some links that I think will preview what applicants for blockchain funding will have to deal with:

Minotaur has highlighted a market for whom exchange rate fluctuations are a GOOD thing. But here are some for whom it's a BAD thing. IMO, Dash needs do develop a consciousness about the distinct requirements of both since they are in conflict.

In systems development theory, when you have conflicting priorities, the solution is to address then independently. (i.e, you create distinct products for each market). Dash is focused on the risk-asset product, not the currency product, which IMO is exactly where its priorities should lie. I don't think that Dash itself needs to supply the stable currency derivative which will work for commercial markets since 3rd parties usually supply such financial instruments.

But at the same time it should be conscious of the fact that the main market is for currency (albeit backed by a risk asset). For example, here are markets where people actually pay hard cash solely for the currency NOT to change in value between their budget date and manufacturing date. (So none of these markets would buy Dash - only a derivative of Dash):

http://www.barchart.com/futures/commodities/ITI

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970203731004576045680094212132

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323701904578277711311594082

Operational hedging (as opposed to monetary hedging)

Thanks toknormal, very informative. You always bring great insight on this topic.

[dEBRUYNE]

Here's some links that I think will preview what applicants for blockchain funding will have to deal with:

Minotaur has highlighted a market for whom exchange rate fluctuations are a GOOD thing. But here are some for whom it's a BAD thing. IMO, Dash needs do develop a consciousness about the distinct requirements of both since they are in conflict.

In systems development theory, when you have conflicting priorities, the solution is to address then independently. (i.e, you create distinct products for each market). Dash is focused on the risk-asset product, not the currency product, which IMO is exactly where its priorities should lie. I don't think that Dash itself needs to supply the stable currency derivative which will work for commercial markets since 3rd parties usually supply such financial instruments.

But at the same time it should be conscious of the fact that the main market is for currency (albeit backed by a risk asset). For example, here are markets where people actually pay hard cash solely for the currency NOT to change in value between their budget date and manufacturing date. (So none of these markets would buy Dash - only a derivative of Dash):

http://www.barchart.com/futures/commodities/ITI

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970203731004576045680094212132

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323701904578277711311594082

Operational hedging (as opposed to monetary hedging)

Thanks toknormal, very informative. You always bring great insight on this topic.

It is, but to be honest it's kind of difficult to obtain any form of derivative for cryptocurrencies. If I recall correctly, Okcoin has future contracts for Bitcoin but I have never seen a really active derivative market for Bitcoin (or any cryptocurrency).

[afbitcoins]

Here's some links that I think will preview what applicants for blockchain funding will have to deal with:

Minotaur has highlighted a market for whom exchange rate fluctuations are a GOOD thing. But here are some for whom it's a BAD thing. IMO, Dash needs do develop a consciousness about the distinct requirements of both since they are in conflict.

In systems development theory, when you have conflicting priorities, the solution is to address then independently. (i.e, you create distinct products for each market). Dash is focused on the risk-asset product, not the currency product, which IMO is exactly where its priorities should lie. I don't think that Dash itself needs to supply the stable currency derivative which will work for commercial markets since 3rd parties usually supply such financial instruments.

But at the same time it should be conscious of the fact that the main market is for currency (albeit backed by a risk asset). For example, here are markets where people actually pay hard cash solely for the currency NOT to change in value between their budget date and manufacturing date. (So none of these markets would buy Dash - only a derivative of Dash):

http://www.barchart.com/futures/commodities/ITI

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970203731004576045680094212132

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323701904578277711311594082

Operational hedging (as opposed to monetary hedging)

Thanks toknormal, very informative. You always bring great insight on this topic.

It is, but to be honest it's kind of difficult to obtain any form of derivative for cryptocurrencies. If I recall correctly, Okcoin has future contracts for Bitcoin but I have never seen a really active derivative market for Bitcoin (or any cryptocurrency).

If you look on cryptowat.ch website looks like they list futures for bitcoin, litecoin and even etherium.

[toknormal]

Thanks toknormal, very informative. You always bring great insight on this topic.

if thats the case, it's because I'd like Dash to become a heavy lifting currency, not a speculative one. It has the potential to become that for several reasons, but the main ones are:

[1] - Dash is a bitcoin clone and inherits much of the bitcoin integrity

[2] - It sticks to very boring monetary priorities and invests huge amounts of development effort in simply achieving minor advantages in monetary properties at the expense of flashy technical highlights

The world's industries do not revolve around catching the biggest fish, getting the most views on Youtube or having the worlds greatest encryption. They revolve around addressing demand for goods and services. Coal mines, steel works, timber mills and farms are the model for any other commercial sector.

Money is no different.

Evan cannot define money. He can only attempt to supply the demand for money and the market will decide what value to attach to it. All I'd say is, what market do you prefer ?

 - 13 year old girls with iPhones
 - coal mines and steal factories

The former probably do care about the user interface.
The latter probably don't.

[TanteStefana2]

Good to see the soda machine guys getting some reward.

I'm still hung up on the volatility of exchange rates, for example Dash.org will be more than paid off by 'very' large amount if I'm not mistaken. Don't know what the answer is but it seems quite serious. How can we avoid paying far too much or underfunding far too much. We have to be honest Dash price is nowhere near stable

In this case, the guys pooled their dash, so it's right to pay them back in dash.  They would have otherwise kept their dash and enjoyed the increase in value.

[TanteStefana2]

I think the key is to keep it in Dash and let the people take the volatility. I think we forget that for long periods of time last year Dash was in a downtrend. So for example it happened to me before that I would fund a certain initiative with X amount of Dash and then the price will go down and by the time I recover the exact same amount of Dash back the FIAT equivalent was less. So should I have gotten more Dash to match the FIAT equivalent of when I funded the DASH?  My answer was no, I am happy with getting the same amount of DASH because I am long in the project.

So I think the same applies the other way around people should get the same amount of Dash they initially agreed even if the price is going up. That creates network effects and everyone wins when the price goes up.

For example, and this is just hypothetical lets say Coinbase requires a 10K DASH payment ahead of time to integrate Dash to their service. But we decide to split it up in 6 payments not to clutter the budget space. Then when the news is announced the price of Dash rallies. Does that mean that by the 4th month we are going to start saying we should not be paying Coinbase their full 10K because the price went up?  Of course not, we need to pay our full agreement, that is how business works, and people making money with us is a good thing.  After 6 months Coinbase would be paid, we kept our word and our reputation and we have a way larger budget to work with. That is just my opinion of course, but I feel strongly about it.

 Totally on the same page! I mean exactly the opposite.

 For example dash.org. Someone, or group, payed upfront 20k for the premium domain. My guess is probably some Dash were liquidated. So lets imagine you liquidated 5k USD @ 3,2 ...

 Months later, you get payed back 5k USD @4.2 ... totally unfair.

Also, even if they used all fiat to do this for Dash, they could have bought Dash instead, so it really doesn't matter in this type of case, where funds were put up to pay for something for the community.  However, I can see if, at the time, they wanted fiat in return, they could have said, we want the equivalent of fiat in return. 

There should be a point, on Dash Whale, or somewhere where, before the final vote, all terms are finalized and unchangeable, so that it becomes the contract to the community.  So it'd get locked and we can look back on it knowing it hasn't changed since voting in

[TanteStefana2]

See the thing is that without the volatility it would be way harder to get more adoption and new partners. Established crypto businesses know they bring value into the relationship at this point and they hope that as a new partnership is announced the value of the network and the price would go up. They care a lot more about the potential upside than about the potential loss.

Take away that volatility and there is a lot less interest. It is one of those things that if you "fix it" it has unintended consequences.

This will not be the case later on, as Dash is bigger and more established we will have a lot more leverage in the negotiation and will be able to dictate the terms we want. For the time being we need to be more flexible.

Thats a good point Minotaur, but I'm trying to make the case for a more generalised financial model for Dash. What you've identified in your post is a market for risk assets, thats all. But there are loads of markets for risk assets, not all of them crypto currencies. Dash is not unique in supplying volatility to a financial trading market.

Here's the thing: Bitcoin has plenty of backing now, but it has kind of lost the plot as a monetary unit. Satoshi created a very well defined monetary unit of exchange. Then he disappeared and left Gavin to manage the code. Then Gavin gave GitHub access to a bunch of guys that he thought were clever programmers. Then they got bought up by some venture capitalists.

Now bitcoin is a rudderless ship because it's being directed by people who cannot escape from their "fiat" way of seeing things. In particular, Greg Maxwell who is at once a very clever programmer and at the same time absolutely void of imagination as to how a new monetary system could work. (IMO that's because he doesn't fully understand how the old one worked). The reason I name him in particular is because he's symbolic of the legacy model to the point that he's obsessed with coding it into re-incarnation in the crypto currency domain with its multiple, corporately managed girdles.

Expecting someone like Greg Maxwell to adequately implement digitally money is kind of like asking Mozart to write Jumping Jack Flash and for it to sound good.
Ain't gonna happen.

Witness sidechains - a monetary clown to bitcoin’s lion.

Returning to my previous post and to your reply, I think that Dash needs to start thinking about supporting the two distinct demands for monetary media:

[1] - risk assets
[2] - stable currencies

The history of money is characterised by these two demands playing off against each other because there is always a balance of demand for both. Risk assets are demanded by the type of market you highlighted in your post.

But there is a huge market who do not make their money from investing in currency. They make it from manufacturing products (even some now emerging as applicants for Dash blockchain funding). Those users of currency require the exact opposite from risk asset investors - they need their manufacturing estimates come in on budget months or years from when the planning was done. You can't do that with a risk asset, you need a derivative.

Those markets are huge. Potentially far bigger that simple forex investment because most people who use money are using it to build something, not to hold and hope that it accrues in value. Therefore, Dash needs to work for them as well and start thinking about a derivative product which will do the exact opposite of what Dash does on the exchanges. i.e, when Dash tanks the derivative accrues value. When Dash surges the derivative declines.

At the very least I think we need to develop a consciousness around the distinction between risk assets and currency (or “money and currency” as Mike Maloney calls it). Doing that will keep Dash at the bleeding edge, not just in technological terms but in monetary terms as well.

So, are you saying we should do something like nubits does?

[TanteStefana2]

T-shirt Dash  

That looks pretty darn slick!

I have for sale. In fact after producing they are a genius!

I also really like this, is it actually sewn that way?  What's the price?  (warning, so drained of money, I'll probably only be able to salivate at the picture )

OK, enough about me and my opinions, how about YOU?  LOL (I'm so bad )

[ra_pl]

T-shirt Dash  

That looks pretty darn slick!

I have for sale. In fact after producing they are a genius!

I also really like this, is it actually sewn that way?  What's the price?  (warning, so drained of money, I'll probably only be able to salivate at the picture )

OK, enough about me and my opinions, how about YOU?  LOL (I'm so bad )

so just look at reality! There are sewn - it is the highest print quality.
Rate ~ 9-10DASH at the moment.

I soon had other designs. They are simply stunning

[tungfa]

What is a Dash Masternode and how do I set up one?
 
https://www.bolehvpn.net/blog/2016/02/07/what-is-a-dash-masternode-and-how-do-i-set-up-one/

[tungfa]

Is the .onion site down or is it just me?

i believe it is moving server
should be back soon