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Author Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency  (Read 9723492 times)
xkcdd
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October 15, 2021, 02:55:01 AM

Really amazing news coming out of the DIF today, check this out !



https://newsroom.dash.org/141452-dash-investment-foundation-invests-in-bitfy-and-announces-dash-acceptance-at-15-million-establishments-in-brazil

https://www.investing.com/news/cryptocurrency-news/dif-invests-in-bitfy-over-15m-establishments-in-brazil-now-accept-dash-2643920

https://twitter.com/StayDashy/status/1448674404276244489

https://twitter.com/Dashpay/status/1448635858660335616

https://twitter.com/StayDashy/status/1448657823689166860

https://old.reddit.com/r/dashpay/comments/q7zcs8/dash_investment_foundation_invests_in_bitfy_and/
afbitcoins
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October 17, 2021, 10:58:50 PM

The trouble with Dash is it doesn't store value.

The clue is in the name, Digital 'cash'

Cash over long periods of time is not a good store of value.

Dash, great for transactions. Terrible investment.
xkcdd
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October 18, 2021, 04:58:07 AM

The trouble with Dash is it doesn't store value.

The clue is in the name, Digital 'cash'

Cash over long periods of time is not a good store of value.

Dash, great for transactions. Terrible investment.

Here is a quarterly chart of DASH showing it not storing value.

https://www.tradingview.com/x/mhtl0feV/

As you can see, we are moving up and the to the right, the trouble with the market is that it is so greedy that extreme expectations are made of these crypto assets, if this were a stock, you'd be very pleased.

Also note that compared to Bitcoin whose inflation is now a mere 2%, DASH's inflation is still at 6% so it pays to keep your DASH in a masternode or a share of one, this could be another factor for why the price doesn't keep up with Bitcoin.


toknormal
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October 18, 2021, 10:42:29 AM
Last edit: October 18, 2021, 10:53:34 AM by toknormal


Here is a quarterly chart of DASH showing it not storing value.

https://www.tradingview.com/x/mhtl0feV/

That's a pump, not a store of value. By now you should know the difference surely. All of that is coming from bitcoin's coattails. To "store value"we need to make progress or at least to be reasonably buoyant against bitcoin. Instead it's hammering off support trying to breakthrough to some new depth that looks like ending up at 1 BTC per node.

To be buoyant in SofV you need to use every spare ounce of fuel and not p*ss it away out of the network on unsustainable rewards for nodes. But of course that's not going to happen because the governance system has been a disaster in conflict of interest as its most effective achievement to date is to allow the governors to stuff their pockets full of ever more of the emerging coin supply at no cost, then dump it on markets for a profit at any price until the marketcap in BTC terms simply haemorrhages to a shadow of its former self.


Wh1teKn1ght
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October 18, 2021, 06:12:20 PM

What happened to the development updates? These used to be provided somewhat regularly. Haven't seen one in a long time. DCG should be able to provide a bi-weekly update with regards to development. They work in 2-week dev sprints I believe so it shouldnt be too hard to communicate what's been worked on/accomplished in each iteration.
Pang.
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October 19, 2021, 08:33:14 AM





So, according to your theory, when dash approaches the emission limit, its price will skyrocket because there is no more Dash to throw on the market?

I think it is not as simple as what you suggest. I accept many things that you say even if I do not agree with you, but to say that a coin does not rise simply because the holders throw the "free" coins I do not see it correct.

There are tokens and coins that have all their monetary issue on the market and do not go up. see IOTA for example.

Then there are other currencies that inflate like SOLANA, AAVE, ETH and go up.

I think that everything is about generating a demand, it is not necessary to be a store of value to earn a price.

IF you get Dash to use daily and change hands, its price will go up.

You mean to tell me that DOGE is better than thousands of other coins just because ELon Musk says so?

Crypto is a very controversial universe and above all very illogical.

All the best
toknormal
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October 19, 2021, 12:46:02 PM
Last edit: October 19, 2021, 05:53:58 PM by toknormal



I think that everything is about generating a demand, it is not necessary to be a store of value to earn a price.


IF you get Dash to use daily and change hands, its price will go up.


I agree. And mining is "generating demand". It's a market.

If you short-circuit that market and "donate" the coins directly to a privileged few then the net effect is to tank the price in that "market". You're not generating any demand, just supply because so much of the coin (~50%) emerges with a zero cost base.

How can you not get this ? How void of dispassionate, intuitive logical reasoning does one have to be not to see that allowing such a high proportion of coins to emerge with a zero cost base in this type of asset is going to chronically eat the markcatcap away (relative to equivalent assets that don't do it) ? If you can't see it intuitively I've even given you the sums so you can demonstrate it to yourself using pure accounting:

 • the masternode reward doesn't have a buy side
 • the mining reward does

So part of the reward is a net sell and part is neutral. Clearly the more of the reward you push into the "net sell" sector, the more it's going to drag the marketcap down until it simply sinks it due to eventually erroding even investor confidence in its ability to store value. The only reason proof of stake coins get away with this is because they have on-chain sinks that offset the sell-pressure from staking rewards. Store-of-value assets that synthesise precious metals don't have that, scarcity is what is invested in. Sure it's ok to have SOME masternode reward. I'm not advocating for none. I'm saying that beyond a certain point the reward doesn't offset the capital loss it causes in the masternode collateral which sets off a slow death spiral that's impossible to escape. We went way past that optimal reward-split point.

I can even understand people like Ryan thinking that ditching hashrate will make us somehow more "efficient". He's a classically trained economist and economics is all about optimal use of resources. But he mis-characterised the business model of mined assets. We're not a "widget production" model, we're a capital transport model. The priorities reverse. If you think of hashrate as a production resource then of course it's excess to requirements when you have something like chainlocks. But this isn't a coin production factory, it's a capital transport system. It transports capital from a market investor into the blockchain. It uses a TRUSTLESS MARKET where hashrate is the CURRENCY used to transport that capital into the "bank". The value doesn't end up in electricity companies it ends up in the blockchain. They only peel off a tiny piece of profit but they supply the "currency". The capital invested ends up in the coin. The more of that "currency" you can attract to your chain (on top of whatever else demand you can create) the more demand your emerging coins will have at the primary source. Conversely, the less you attract, the less bidding there is and the more the value is undermined. What's going into masternode pockets isn't profit from blockchain activity, it's investor capital that should be going into the chain.

IF you get Dash to use daily and change hands, its price will go up.

Not if we get the basics wrong. If we get the basic protocol so misaligned with the capital transport model which mining implements that it actually weighs down the store-of-value performance so heavily that you don't even get adoption, then you're never going to get monetary velocity. The store-of-value has to work first, then velocity can come. But it doesn't work the other way around. Why do you think we've been trounced by even Litecoin et al and left in the dust at 10k transactions per day. Zip improvement in velocity (daily transaction count) in 5 YEARS ! That's despite gazillions spent on marketing, all kinds of zany adoption projects, features, masternodes, instant send, on-chain mixing, Venezuela, you name it.

What's missing ? Store of value performance that only mining can deliver.

Lets stop dreaming and start thinking.
afbitcoins
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October 19, 2021, 08:22:00 PM

The argument is intuitive to me. Not it seems to the governors of Dash.

I can't explain it, the lack of willingness to do what needs to be done and fix the reward ratio. Dash has everything in place, just the wrong people calling the shots.

The only certainty to me is that this will not be reversed. Masternode owners must be too short sighted to see the benefit of getting less proportion of the minted coins in exchange for a much higher valuation.

Maybe a factor is too few whales control the vote and are happy with the way things are?

In response to another comment above. Yes dogecoin gets pumped by Musk. A bit like Roger Ver helped pumped Dash at one point. These things are transitory. You can't compare Iota, thats apples and oranges. The bottom line is you can't beat the economic fundamentals.

By the way, the increased incentive to attract more masternodes was a complete failure. Just like the rest of the proposal. Surely there should be question marks over his leadership on this ?

  
Pang.
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October 19, 2021, 08:38:19 PM

The argument is intuitive to me. Not it seems to the governors of Dash.

I can't explain it, the lack of willingness to do what needs to be done and fix the reward ratio. Dash has everything in place, just the wrong people calling the shots.

The only certainty to me is that this will not be reversed. Masternode owners must be too short sighted to see the benefit of getting less proportion of the minted coins in exchange for a much higher valuation.

Maybe a factor is too few whales control the vote and are happy with the way things are?

In response to another comment above. Yes dogecoin gets pumped by Musk. A bit like Roger Ver helped pumped Dash at one point. These things are transitory. You can't compare Iota, thats apples and oranges. The bottom line is you can't beat the economic fundamentals.

By the way, the increased incentive to attract more masternodes was a complete failure. Just like the rest of the proposal. Surely there should be question marks over his leadership on this ?

  

When I refer to IOTA, I am referring to the claim that a supply dumped on the market constantly causes the price to go down.

That is why I said that both DOGE and LTC dump their coins, but go up positions, therefore that dump theory is not correct.

Then I said that a currency like for example IOTA with all its supply sold, does not go up.

For the rest, and to give an example,  myself operate a master node and do not turn over the coins to the exchanges. I only use Dash once in a while to make an occasional payment or purchase, but I don't turn over even 10% of what my position generates.

What do the rest of the nodes do?

Dump every moment they receive a reward?

Or did you expect a higher price to sell?


I believe that any master node operator would rather sell 1 Dash for $ 1000 than sell 5 for $ 200, but this is just an opinion. I cannot assure you that the price will be sunk by the sell-off of masternode rewards. I question it, but I don't know.

All the best
toknormal
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October 19, 2021, 09:30:19 PM
Last edit: October 22, 2021, 02:42:55 AM by toknormal
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I believe that any master node operator would rather sell 1 Dash for $ 1000 than sell 5 for $ 200, but this is just an opinion. I cannot assure you that the price will be sunk by the sell-off of masternode rewards. I question it, but I don't know.

These kind of anecdotal observations are not very helpful because they don't characterise the whole system performance in terms of its transmission of capital from secondary market (exchange) investors into primary market valuation.

In a mined coin, the primary market valuation is defined by the price of extraction of the next coin from the blockchain.

To determine those dynamics IMO we need to ditch our various preconceptions of individual trader behaviour, which are diverse, and simply understand the business model of a mined coin. In that respect, the problem is with the word "mining". It's a metaphor, nothing more and an unfortunate one in Dash's case because it obscures the real function of mining which is a capital transport mechanism. This has lead to a huge banana skin that we've slipped up on, making us think it's dispensable.

We need to discard the metaphor and see it for what it is - getting investor capital into the chain.

The capital transport process works like this:

1. the secondary market buyer invests their fiat capital at the exchange (e.g. Kraken)
2. the exchange transfers the capital to the "miner"

At this stage we note that the word "miner" is simply a metaphor for a broker who provides a capital-migration interface between the exchange and the blockchain

4. the "miner" exchanges their fiat currency for "hashrate currency" provided by the electric company
5. the "miner" then trades this for the coin in the blockchain primary market, supporting the price in the process through competitive bidding
6. the coin then travels back up the food chain all the way back to the secondary market buyer

The secondary buyer's investment capital is now in the blockchain, collateralised by the marginal cost of coin extraction. Meanwhile the the blockchain's tokenisation of that value has ended up in the hands of the secondary market buyer. This is the basic Satoshi model of blockchain capitalisation which Dash inherits.

Notice that all the way along, each party only takes a small profit margin for transporting the capital. The money paid to the electric company isn't an overhead, rather it's a currency exchange. Notice also that in Dash's implementation masternode rewards are revenues which if realised, have to be tapped out of the investor capital flow which therefore never reaches the chain. The consequent blockchain capital deficit is represented by masternode profits on their reward realisations which (unlike miners who are simply conduits) have a near-zero cost base.

At this point there will probably be conflicting and diverse views about this perspective. So it's helpful to introduce 2 distinct analytical models to resolve these:

 • a widget production model (where you're trying to minimise the resource cost and maximise selling price)
 • a capital transmission model (where you're trying to maximise the amount of capital that gets from stage 1 to stage 5)

In terms of the widget production model, then it's true that "cost does not drive price". The manufacturer is trying to minimise costs and maximise price and if market demand is there then profit is inversely proportional to cost. But in a capital transmission model the OPPOSITE applies. This is where the masternode community have got it wrong IMO and ended up configuring our protocol parameters at a way sub-optimal level for capital appreciation. For example when you transfer money to your bank account, you don't regard the value of the capital you're moving as a cost. The units in your account are not widgets with a production cost, they're a store of value so you want as much as possible of the capital from stage 1 to end up at stage 5 using the example above as an analogue.

So in the model for store-of-value digital assets with distinct primary and secondary markets (BTC, Dash, LTC, Monero, Doge etc), mining represents the transmission mechanism and it has to operate with high fidelity. If half the capital from stage 1 ends up in masternode operator pockets on the way to stage 5, this asset will bleed marketcap and external investors will simply dry up. That in turn will lead to loss of non-investor user adoption which will manifest in depleted blockchain traffic statistics. Sure the masternode operators will make money for a while but ultimately the low fidelity capital transmission will deplete the store of value performance to the point that even masternodes don't make money due to the chronic devaluation of their collateral by external asset markets.

The way to fix this IMO is:

1. for Dash governance to become conscious of the distinctive and conflicting priorities between these two analytical models (widget production model & capital transfer model) and the perilous banana skins generated by conflating the two  

2. to appreciate how our psychology is pre-primed with priorities of the former and that we tend to project these on the latter unconsciously

3. as a consequence of 1 & 2, to realise that Dash can then be way more competitive as a capital transfer model than it is at the moment. ( = store of value performance)

4. only then can we add back in Dash's usability features into consideration. It is unique in the aspect of being capable of supporting nearly as much capital transfer performance as BTC and LTC but way out-competes them on usability. We can't do that however unless we address the issues with our crippled mining quota

Luckily, all that it takes in technical terms is a re-appraisal and resetting of the reward ratio. Nada.

In governance terms however it might take a bit of a leap of consciousness, maturity & sophistication. That is the next obstacle to be scaled IMO.
popeye95
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October 21, 2021, 08:35:05 PM

Wow, what a great input and explanation by toknormal. I think your post should be made into an article to help more people understand about Dash. Cheer for Dash to have such people like you that ain't shy from the discussion.
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October 22, 2021, 01:25:54 AM

In case you missed it, the DASH DCG Q3 Quarterly call !
https://youtu.be/W_GJagFdd0g
Alexey45
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October 22, 2021, 10:05:52 AM

ZEC got very close. Do you think ZEC is better?
Unpleasant picture, why does DASH want to give way?
Pang.
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October 22, 2021, 01:07:56 PM

ZEC got very close. Do you think ZEC is better?
Unpleasant picture, why does DASH want to give way?

It depends on what you intend to use a coin for.

ZEC is private by nature, Dash is a currency that gives the option of privacy.

Is ZEC faster than Dash?

Is its blockchain more secure?

is ZEC cheaper than Dash?

Does it provide more transactions per second?

Do ZEC have a DAO?

Does it give the possibility of DEFI?

I have absolutely nothing against ZEC, I am glad that it exists, just like I am glad that there is Monero, BTC, ETH ...

But today, to make a payment I prefer to use Dash, and I have tried many others over the years. But for convenience, speed, commissions, and global acceptance, I prefer to use Dash today ... tomorrow? ... I hope to continue using Dash, but I can't swear to it either.

Dash is going to gain traction very soon, unless there is a market debacle. The nodes are holding up, the chart indicators have turned bullish, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a quick run bull of 20% shortly at the earliest.

Anyway, this is a long-term run, and there, only the fundamentals that add value and make a substantial difference can give positive traction to a project.

At the moment and despite my discrepancies, I remain positive with Dash, and there I have a good percentage of my savings in crypto.

We will see what happens, so far it has not been the best investment, but it could be shortly.

Greetings, by the way I miss reading qwizzy, he was a great support around here, and especially help for new users.
splawik21
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October 26, 2021, 06:49:09 PM

Live Dash AMA with Sam Westrich, Dash Core Group CTO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyErz0EA-nw

BE SMART, USE DASH ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
kangfeifei1204
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October 31, 2021, 07:53:43 AM

I have been holding dash since its birth .I have witnessed the brilliance of its market value and the decline of its market value.Haven't DCG paid close attention to dash declining include market sharing.Now dash is 84 on coingecko .We'll head into the top 90  then the top 100 and off the front page,last it will disappear.I think this is the result that all the people who invest in dash do not want to see.The Venezuela project looks successful on the surface,but in fact most of the budget funds have used to directly convert into US dollars, and those people hardly consider the so-called dash economic value.Most of the month budgets are wasted.It is undeniable that DCG has been working hard and everything is developing in the direction of the plan, but do some need to be replanning?Because of the delay in developing modules and weak marketing strategy.Much more budget should be transferred to development and marketing,then capture  more powerful capital input.The more market value will increase,  the more people will get recognition. it is long time,evo has been late many times.Evo destroys much more people's confidence,how confident these people were at the time!  Now,it's time to change something,otherwise we will be overwhelmed.
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October 31, 2021, 04:10:50 PM

There is something strange about Dash for a few months.

There are several wallets that accumulate Dash, I do not know if they are Dash from master nodes, mining or bought on exchanges.

On the other hand I see that the price remains very repressed ... one of the worst in the top 100 in these months even with a more active development than other currencies that are hardly used or developed.

It is possible that the new applications for direct spending of Dash, are transferring BTC for direct consumption through Dash, only to be spent.


This means: I have BTC that is at historical highs, I buy a bit of Dash and then I use it to buy through its "dash direct" applications, which would make the price go up at first, and then lower it.

This means that there is no incentive to hoard Dash. It is better to hoard BTC and use Dash only to spend in a simple, fast and low-commission way.

It would be as if Dash were the copper coins and BTC the gold that everyone wants.

It's just an opinion, but it could serve to explain the worst price development of the entire top 100.

It would be possible for the dash price to die of success in the long run.


All the best
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November 01, 2021, 04:04:38 AM

No, that is not how it works at all.  To use DASH Direct (DD) you need to have a mobile wallet with some DASH in it.  You have custody of that DASH, when you make a purchase using DD it will instantly deduct a small balance from that wallet, sell it and give you a gift card code instantly.  This may look like selling, but let's do a network UTXO set analysis before DD was launched and now.  Prior to the launch there were X number of mobile wallet installs and X' prime coins in them.  After the launch of DD there are Y wallets installed where Y>X and Y' coins in them where Y' is also > X'.  How is this so? well in order to use DD you need to FIRST buy a bunch of DASH, this is called demand.  Now using DD, sure you sell some, but on balance you maintain some DASH in your wallet for next time and you keep on topping it up.

Let's say that DD currently has 50K American users (I am unsure of the true number) and on average that person keeps 1 DASH in their mobile wallet for spending, then indeed there are now 50K DASH across all those wallets that wasn't there before the launch of DD.  This is what is supporting price and keeping it higher than we would have otherwise expected it.  In fact, refer to https://mnowatch.org/dash-stats/?20211031150015 and look at the severe MN selling, why just this Halloween weekend we sold over 15nodes on Hallow's Eve alone!  Did the price dump?   No!  It pumped!  This is because DASH is more useful now thanks to DD and being bought up ready for purchases later.

Your BTC Gold and DASH Copper is a case of confirmation bias, when the BTC maxis repeat a lie so often "Btc is a store of value" people being to believe it and then rationalise other coins in terms of that lie.  This is the same technique governments use to manipulate people by the way.  So, now you think DASH is copper, more useful than GOLD, but cheaper, however, the analogy is flawed.  The correct analogy is DASH is Bitcoin according to the Bitcoin Whitepaper and Bitcoin is a franken coin subverted and co-opted by the powers that be to suit their own needs divergent from the whitepaper.
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November 01, 2021, 08:40:37 AM


I can accept part of your text, and I appreciate your opinion. However, it is not clear to me that DD makes people keep a specific balance of Dash in their wallet in the long term, unless they feel the need to save that Dash for something other than to spend it immediately.

I mean that if for example a person has 1BTC, they will keep 1BTC in their wallet and will change a small portion to Dash just minutes or hours before transforming it into an active purchase through DD.

I may be wrong and people are accumulating Dash, but this reminds me of when Dash was delivered in Venezuela and this Dash was immediately changed to dollars. Virtually no Dash delivered by the Treasury to Venezuela remained in Dash and was quickly withdrawn into dollars.

I do not know if I explained well?

I appreciate your insight, and I wish that you are the one who is right.

All the best
xkcdd
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November 01, 2021, 09:17:45 AM


I mean that if for example a person has 1BTC, they will keep 1BTC in their wallet and will change a small portion to Dash just minutes or hours before transforming it into an active purchase through DD.


More research needs to be done into the spending habits of these people to learn if this is correct, or if they do hold over some small balance in DASH, I believe they would, but I am not able to prove it at all.
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