[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[qwizzie]

Before coinjoin existed, bitcoin was considered anonymous until it isn't anymore.

Now..coinjoin is not anonymous, therefore bitcoin is not anonymous...so back to dash.

So..dash mid to high level anonymity option..is it anonymous or not?

Bitcoin open blockchain has pseudo anonymous per default (transactions can be fully traced on the blockchain)
Dash open blockchain has pseudo anonymous per default (transactions can be fully traced on the blockchain)

Bitcoin users can choose to use Bitcoin CoinJoin mixers to further anonymize their transactions --> anonymous transactions
Dash users can choose to use PrivateSend (a form of CoinJoin) to further anonymize their transactions from 1-16 rounds --> anonymous transactions

The more mixing, the higher the level of anonymous.

[arielbit]

Before coinjoin existed, bitcoin was considered anonymous until it isn't anymore.

Now..coinjoin is not anonymous, therefore bitcoin is not anonymous...so back to dash.

So..dash mid to high level anonymity option..is it anonymous or not?

Bitcoin blockchain has pseudo anonymous per default (transactions can be fully traced)
Dash blockchain has pseudo anonymous per default (transactions can be fully traced)

Bitcoin users can choose to use Bitcoin CoinJoin mixers to further anonymize their transactions --> anonymous transactions
Dash users can choose to use PrivateSend (a form of CoinJoin) to further anonymize their transactions from 1-16 rounds --> anonymous transactions

The more mixing, the higher the level of anonymous.

I'll use 'trace' instead of anonymous since you are slippery hehe

Coinjoin can be traced.

Can dash mid-high level privatesend be traced?

[qwizzie]

Before coinjoin existed, bitcoin was considered anonymous until it isn't anymore.

Now..coinjoin is not anonymous, therefore bitcoin is not anonymous...so back to dash.

So..dash mid to high level anonymity option..is it anonymous or not?

Bitcoin blockchain has pseudo anonymous per default (transactions can be fully traced)
Dash blockchain has pseudo anonymous per default (transactions can be fully traced)

Bitcoin users can choose to use Bitcoin CoinJoin mixers to further anonymize their transactions --> anonymous transactions
Dash users can choose to use PrivateSend (a form of CoinJoin) to further anonymize their transactions from 1-16 rounds --> anonymous transactions

The more mixing, the higher the level of anonymous.

I'll use 'trace' instead of anonymous since you are slippery hehe

Coinjoin can be traced.

Can dash mid-high level be traced?

Less likely, but the anonymity can be undermined by users not understanding the limitations of CoinJoin itself :

* don't use a fixed address before mixing sessions and after mixing sessions
* don't send the exact same amount before mixing and after mixing
* don't include a lot of input amounts (>10) in transactions
* lowering the rounds of mixing affects the anonymity, particularly on smaller networks

Even i have difficulty with number 3, sometimes (most of the times) skipping it.

[arielbit]

Before coinjoin existed, bitcoin was considered anonymous until it isn't anymore.

Now..coinjoin is not anonymous, therefore bitcoin is not anonymous...so back to dash.

So..dash mid to high level anonymity option..is it anonymous or not?

Bitcoin blockchain has pseudo anonymous per default (transactions can be fully traced)
Dash blockchain has pseudo anonymous per default (transactions can be fully traced)

Bitcoin users can choose to use Bitcoin CoinJoin mixers to further anonymize their transactions --> anonymous transactions
Dash users can choose to use PrivateSend (a form of CoinJoin) to further anonymize their transactions from 1-16 rounds --> anonymous transactions

The more mixing, the higher the level of anonymous.

I'll use 'trace' instead of anonymous since you are slippery hehe

Coinjoin can be traced.

Can dash mid-high level be traced?

Less likely, but it can be undermined by users not understanding the limitations of CoinJoin :

* don't use a fixed address before mixing sessions and after mixing sessions
* don't send the exact same amount before mixing and after mixing
* don't include a lot of input amounts (>10) in transactions
* lowering the rounds of mixing affects the anonymity

"Less likely it can be traced" is anonymous enough for delisting in my eyes.

Since coinjoin can be fully traced, we can say bitcoin is not anonymous.

Case closed. Thank you for your cooperation.  

[qwizzie]

"Less likely it can be traced" is anonymous enough for delisting in my eyes.

Since coinjoin can be fully traced, we can say bitcoin is not anonymous.

Case closed. Thank you for you cooperation.  

Lets re-open the case.

Bitcoin open blockchain is pseudo-anonymous by default --> fully traced
Bitcoin users chosing Bitcoin Mixers to mix their transactions --> anonymous (just lower level then Dash)

Only if Bitcoin Mixers get compromised can Bitcoin transactions be fully traced.

 

[arielbit]

"Less likely it can be traced" is anonymous enough for delisting in my eyes.

Since coinjoin can be fully traced, we can say bitcoin is not anonymous.

Case closed. Thank you for you cooperation. 

Lets re-open the case.

Bitcoin open blockchain is pseudo-anonymous by default --> fully traced
Bitcoin users chosing Bitcoin Mixers to mix their transactions --> anonymous

 

Nope, they are not anonymous--those bitcoin mixers.

Overruled.

[qwizzie]

"Less likely it can be traced" is anonymous enough for delisting in my eyes.

Since coinjoin can be fully traced, we can say bitcoin is not anonymous.

Case closed. Thank you for you cooperation.  

Lets re-open the case.

Bitcoin open blockchain is pseudo-anonymous by default --> fully traced
Bitcoin users chosing Bitcoin Mixers to mix their transactions --> anonymous

 

Nope, they are not anonymous--those bitcoin mixers.

Overruled.

Tell that to all the Bitcoin users still using those mixers.
As long as the Bitcoin mixers don't get compromised, Bitcoin transactions can't be traced very easily. Maybe with a lot of effort by companies specialized in tracing transactions, maybe.
But not by you or me.

[arielbit]

"Less likely it can be traced" is anonymous enough for delisting in my eyes.

Since coinjoin can be fully traced, we can say bitcoin is not anonymous.

Case closed. Thank you for you cooperation.  

Lets re-open the case.

Bitcoin open blockchain is pseudo-anonymous by default --> fully traced
Bitcoin users chosing Bitcoin Mixers to mix their transactions --> anonymous

 

Nope, they are not anonymous--those bitcoin mixers.

Overruled.

Tell that to all the Bitcoin users still using those mixers.
As long as the Bitcoin mixers don't get compromised, Bitcoin transactions can't be traced very easily. Maybe with a lot of effort by companies specialized in tracing transactions, maybe.
But not by you or me.

Yup. Told them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktkORjPHZvE

The prosecutor of the DEA and FBI agents didn't say how she was able to trace the transactions, but did mention that they were able to follow the coins as it bounced from one address to another until it ended up in the agent's personal exchange accounts, and they kept withdrawing hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Now, that's called something else. They did not do any mixing at all, and they used their own personal exchange accounts, and they were withdrawing hundreds of thousands of dollars every month.

So yeah, they must have missed a brain cell or something. (Maybe a lot more ...)

“the perfect criminals” — being federal agents, “they knew how to cover their tracks,” ---all of them should just ask dabs how to cover their tracks

it bounced from one address to another

sounds like mixing to me LOL

she said "tumblers and mixers were early tech and technically they are not great" and they were able to unscramble.

she also said TOR was created by the government BTW

so there goes chipmixer signature of yours..hehe  



what I pointed out to you are results. companies with tools and government with tools. it is done and proven that bitcoin is not anonymous, whatever mixing toys you use.

this is like asking me to prove how uranium can produce so much energy, where i just choose to point out nuclear plant and nuclear bomb to you  

I'm not gonna get a drawing board and explain technical stuff here. the stuff you need to search was so 2014-2016 LOL can't believe you are still in 2012-2013 era hehe.


ever heard of virgin BTC ?
https://cointelegraph.com/news/virgin-bitcoin-most-in-demand-crypto-that-is-regulated-differently

ain't touching those mixed coins LOL

[jdmcg]

The only real difference between Bitcoin's (and LTC's, BCH's, etc) coinjoin and Dash's to my knowledge is a question of trust.

Dash provides a decentralized version of coinjoin where the user doesn't have to hand their coins over and hope they get them back. Dash provides up to 16 rounds of mixing. Since Bitcoin's solutions are centralized, I doubt they really have a mixing limitation. They can pretty much do what they want and they likely have more inputs to mix with.

In practice and if done properly I doubt someone can trace either Bitcoin or Dash transactions once mixed and after the fact.

I've seen many claims that it's been broken but followed by no proof. Perhaps if a transaction (either from Dash or Bitcoin) can be de-anonymyzed and it isn't the result of an obvious user error I'd change my mind.

Now regarding Monero trolling... I'm one of those people who can't seem to pick just one coin. However, it was specifically because of the heavy XMR trolling/hate on multiple threads that I avoided XMR altogether. Of course I regret that, because it's different tech and it does offer something useful to the crypto world. I don't believe a crypto can be true money without privacy. theymos and other BTC maximalists love the XMR crew as they always played buddy-buddy with big brother BTC while praising its superiority all the while attacking all other alts. Charlie Lee and LTC largely played the same game. Dash in contrast went right at BTC and has suffered quite the backlash over the years.

Still though, I can't see any one of these 3, LTC, XMR or DASH just going away. They've all established a decent enough network effect and are all in bull markets vs USD and are all poised for an easy 7x when the time is right. It'll likely be quick, one first, within a 2 week period sometime in the coming months, then the others will follow.

[qwizzie]

"Less likely it can be traced" is anonymous enough for delisting in my eyes.

Since coinjoin can be fully traced, we can say bitcoin is not anonymous.

Case closed. Thank you for you cooperation.  

Lets re-open the case.

Bitcoin open blockchain is pseudo-anonymous by default --> fully traced
Bitcoin users chosing Bitcoin Mixers to mix their transactions --> anonymous

 

Nope, they are not anonymous--those bitcoin mixers.

Overruled.

Tell that to all the Bitcoin users still using those mixers.
As long as the Bitcoin mixers don't get compromised, Bitcoin transactions can't be traced very easily. Maybe with a lot of effort by companies specialized in tracing transactions, maybe.
But not by you or me.

Yup. Told them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktkORjPHZvE

I am not sure the criminals actually used Bitcoin Mixers there. Looks more like just normal Bitcoin transactions being traced by the Federal Prosecutor, who obviously has a lot
of analyzing tools available to her. Analyzing tools you and i don't have. There is also some talk about early tech or something ? Bitcoin Mixers these days are most likely
far more secure then those early tech Bitcoin Mixers, if those were Bitcoin mixers in the first place.

Stating that Bitcoin Mixed transactions are fully traceable by someone like you or me seems like an overstatement.

The only real difference between Bitcoin's (and LTC's, BCH's, etc) coinjoin and Dash's to my knowledge is a question of trust.

Dash provides a decentralized version of coinjoin where the user doesn't have to hand their coins over and hope they get them back. Dash provides up to 16 rounds of mixing. Since Bitcoin's solutions are centralized, I doubt they really have a mixing limitation. They can pretty much do what they want and they likely have more inputs to mix with.

In practice and if done properly I doubt someone can trace either Bitcoin or Dash transactions once mixed and after the fact.

I've seen many claims that it's been broken but followed by no proof. Perhaps if a transaction (either from Dash or Bitcoin) can be de-anonymyzed and it isn't the result of an obvious user error I'd change my mind.

I agree with that.

[arielbit]

"Less likely it can be traced" is anonymous enough for delisting in my eyes.

Since coinjoin can be fully traced, we can say bitcoin is not anonymous.

Case closed. Thank you for you cooperation.  

Lets re-open the case.

Bitcoin open blockchain is pseudo-anonymous by default --> fully traced
Bitcoin users chosing Bitcoin Mixers to mix their transactions --> anonymous

 

Nope, they are not anonymous--those bitcoin mixers.

Overruled.

Tell that to all the Bitcoin users still using those mixers.
As long as the Bitcoin mixers don't get compromised, Bitcoin transactions can't be traced very easily. Maybe with a lot of effort by companies specialized in tracing transactions, maybe.
But not by you or me.

Yup. Told them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktkORjPHZvE

I am not sure the criminals actually used Bitcoin Mixers there. Looks more like just normal Bitcoin transactions being traced by the Federal Prosecutor, who obviously has a lot
of analyzing tools available to her. Analyzing tools you and i don't have. There is also some talk about early tech or something ? Bitcoin Mixers these days are most likely
far more secure then those early tech Bitcoin Mixers, if those were Bitcoin mixers in the first place.

Stating that Bitcoin Mixed transactions are fully traceable by someone like you or me seems like an overstatement.

Two words, mixing and unscramble--explains everything.

Regulators hovering around exchanges demanding transparency and traceability...it is not about you or me.

Therefore..delist.

[birdonthewire]

Still though, I can't see any one of these 3, LTC, XMR or DASH just going away. They've all established a decent enough network effect and are all in bull markets vs USD and are all poised for an easy 7x when the time is right. It'll likely be quick, one first, within a 2 week period sometime in the coming months, then the others will follow.

What revaluation do you assume for BTC during that 7x of the altcoins?

Thank you.

[qwizzie]

Two words, mixing and unscramble--explains everything.

I can manually mix something by splitting my amount and sending them from one address to multiple addresses multiple times and someone else can indeed unscramble
that mixing through use of analytical tools. That is not the same as using Bitcoin Mixers though. Provide some specific proof that Bitcoin Mixers can be fully traced these days.

[arielbit]

Two words, mixing and unscramble--explains everything.

I can manually mix something and then someone else can unscramble my mixing.
Provide some specific proof that Bitcoin Mixers can be fully traced these days.

Take time to watch the link i gave you...they got caught eventhough they used mixers...the mixings got unscambled btw

[qwizzie]

Two words, mixing and unscramble--explains everything.

I can manually mix something and then someone else can unscramble my mixing.
Provide some specific proof that Bitcoin Mixers can be fully traced these days.

Take time to watch the link i gave you...they got caught eventhough they used mixers...the mixings got unscambled btw

That is still one case about a Federal Prosecutor on a specific case with the full power of her office.
Does not mean all Bitcoin Mixer transactions are fully traced every minute / hour / day.

A Federal Prosecutor could maybe do that to a Monero transaction as well these days. So many analytical tools available these days.

[arielbit]

Two words, mixing and unscramble--explains everything.

I can manually mix something and then someone else can unscramble my mixing.
Provide some specific proof that Bitcoin Mixers can be fully traced these days.

Take time to watch the link i gave you...they got caught eventhough they used mixers...the mixings got unscambled btw

That is still one case about a Federal Prosecutor on a specific case with the full power of her office.
Does not mean all Bitcoin Mixer transactions are fully traced every minute / hour / day.

A Federal Prosecutor could most likely do that to a Monero transaction as well these days.

That's 2014...after 7 years they can apply those to exchanges.

Mixed can be unscrambled

Monero = encrypted, you can't unscramble encrypted, you have to decrypt it.(non transparent blockchain)

[jdmcg]

Still though, I can't see any one of these 3, LTC, XMR or DASH just going away. They've all established a decent enough network effect and are all in bull markets vs USD and are all poised for an easy 7x when the time is right. It'll likely be quick, one first, within a 2 week period sometime in the coming months, then the others will follow.

What revaluation do you assume for BTC during that 7x of the altcoins?

Thank you.

Any revaluation for BTC I assume will be short-lived (relatively) but it is during this revaluation to at least test the previous high of $20K that I expect major fear and panic which will fuel the alt-season that just about every alt holder is waiting for.

But things are different this time... BTC should have done it's 30% dump at $24K or at least $27K to have a healthy correction/pause to allow it to grow organically. I worry how unhealthy this rapid growth might be long term. Maybe all these institutions have stronger hands and aren't so greedy. But ultimately I doubt it, people will want to take profit at some point and like sheep they probably will all try to do it at the same time. I just hope it is only a 30-40% correction and not a major bubble pop that occurs before any alts can recover from the last 2017/2018 bubble pop. That sequence of events perhaps could kill many alts...
 

[toknormal]

Two words, mixing and unscramble--explains everything.

I can manually mix something and then someone else can unscramble my mixing.
Provide some specific proof that Bitcoin Mixers can be fully traced these days.

Take time to watch the link i gave you...they got caught eventhough they used mixers...the mixings got unscambled btw

Both of you have lost the plot.

Mixing isn't about privacy (at least not primarily). It's about fungibility which is an acknowledged monetary property. A bi-product of hi fungiblity is greater anonymity (ability to decouple a unit of currency from its owner history). But that's just the bi-product. The primary reason is to maintain equivalence of value for each unit.

This is one aspect where Dash has got the cash archetype right and coins like Monero have got it wrong IMO. Monero actually went and encrypted the entire transacting platform itself which isn't the same thing as making the currency fungible directly. The transparency of the transacting platform is needed to maximise perceived integrity. ("Math" doesn't cut it because users have no idea whether their particular client is using "math" or not. I doubt bitcoin would have garnered the trust it has without a gazillion forensic trainspotters crawling all over its chain 24 hours a day).

Dash's mixing therefore works for high fungility whether a particular user uses it or not because they benefit from all the mixing of coins upstream of their addresses. The delistings if anything demonstrate that it's worked because the regulators are seeing Dash as "cash".....which is actually a design goal.

What Dash got wrong was allowing the chain to give up half its supply for nothing, thereby torpedoing its value-storing capacity !

[qwizzie]

Two words, mixing and unscramble--explains everything.

I can manually mix something and then someone else can unscramble my mixing.
Provide some specific proof that Bitcoin Mixers can be fully traced these days.

Take time to watch the link i gave you...they got caught eventhough they used mixers...the mixings got unscambled btw

That is still one case about a Federal Prosecutor on a specific case with the full power of her office.
Does not mean all Bitcoin Mixer transactions are fully traced every minute / hour / day.

A Federal Prosecutor could most likely do that to a Monero transaction as well these days.

That's 2014...after 7 years they can apply those to exchanges.

Mixed can be unscrambled

Looks like there is a move from Bitcoin Mixers to Bitcoin Privacy wallets connected to Tor and making CoinJoin transactions : https://www.cryptopolitan.com/privacy-wallets-their-growing-role-in-bitcoi/
I always thought Bitcoin Mixers used CoinJoin, looks like they are actually used differently :

Bitcoin Mixers are coin randomizers. They usually make sure that the value of Bitcoin exchanged between a sender and receiver differs greatly. At the end of such transactions, the mixers then make it extremely difficult for the transaction to be traced back to the wallet that initiated the transaction.

However, mixers have a litany of issues and a growing number of regulators have been able to cut their influence. The crypto scammers have seeked an alternative which is the use of privacy wallets.

[jdmcg]

Mixed can be unscrambled

Monero = encrypted, you can't unscramble encrypted, you have to decrypt it.(non transparent blockchain)

Sounds like you're arguing that Dash is like Bitcoin then and perhaps should be treated the same.

But tell me, once you deposit/trade/withdraw your XMR on an exchange which forced you to KYC how does Monero's encryption hide this activity from the relevant authorities?

Seems to me, banning privacy coins from exchanges is a misinterpretation of the new laws being put in place. In fact I would think it's better to direct XMR traffic to exchanges to be better monitored for possible money laundering and other misbehaviors.

Mixing isn't about privacy (at least not primarily). It's about fungibility which is an acknowledged monetary property. A bi-product of hi fungiblity is greater anonymity (ability to decouple a unit of currency from its owner history). But that's just the bi-product. The primary reason is to maintain equivalence of value for each unit.

This is one aspect where Dash has got the cash archetype right and coins like Monero have got it wrong IMO. Monero actually went and encrypted the entire transacting platform itself which isn't the same thing as making the currency fungible directly. The transparency of the transacting platform is needed to maximise perceived integrity. ("Math" doesn't cut it because users have no idea whether their particular client is using "math" or not. I doubt bitcoin would have garnered the trust it has without a gazillion forensic trainspotters crawling all over its chain 24 hours a day).

Good, we can still agree on something... fungibility is definitely required for sound money. As is transparency/auditability and the ability to verify the integrity of the system.

Privacy is more about human rights.