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Author Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency  (Read 9672870 times)
toknormal
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December 18, 2020, 11:43:53 AM

No, not when we are talking about the Dash ROI percentage / Dash annual revenue percentage.

But that is not ROI. It's the "Dash annual masternode revenue" expressed as a percentage of the collateral.

That is not ROI which is a very different thing.
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qwizzie
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December 18, 2020, 11:45:04 AM
Last edit: December 18, 2020, 12:30:58 PM by qwizzie

No, not when we are talking about the Dash ROI percentage / Dash annual revenue percentage.

But that is not ROI. It's the "Dash annual masternode revenue" expressed as a percentage of the collateral.

That is not ROI which is a very different thing.

It is the same thing in crypto.

You have 1000 Dash
You have 5.98% annual interest
you receive 59,837735 Dash

ROI annual / Annual Revenue = 59,837735 Dash
ROI percentage annual / Annual Revenue percentage = 5.98%

There is no difference in crypto between crypto annual revenue percentage and crypto annual ROI percentage, so far i can see.
Some use annual revenue percentage, some use ROI percentage, some even use APR percentage (Binance) but that perhaps falls outside this discussion as users basically loan their Dash to Binance.

The fastest way to lose money, is to listen to people that present their personal assumptions as facts
Learn from the past, set detailed and vivid goals for the future and live in the only moment of time over which you have any control : now
toknormal
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December 18, 2020, 12:30:02 PM


But that is not ROI. It's the "Dash annual masternode revenue" expressed as a percentage of the collateral.

It is the same thing in crypto.

If you measure it in crypto then you can't call it ROI.

Your "invested capital" is what you used to buy the Dash, not the Dash itself. I realise that may seem a small and insignificant distinction to some but it isn't, it's huge, because it makes the difference between prioritising earnings or capital gains.

My argument is that we need to target capital gains because one of the criteria for running a masternode (as opposed to, say mining) is that you have to post a large amount of collateral which means that capital gains are actually far more important to you than earnings as soon as the exchange rate moves more than 6% either way. Miners meanwhile are a business. It's a very different model. They're not investors in Dash, they're investors in mining equipment.

Calling the masternode reward "ROI" is therefore a misnomer. It is not a 6% "return" on anything. It's just 6% of the collateral but that's not what you invested, it's what you purchased WITH your investment.

Let us examine this in a quantified manner:

You can now see the distinction. ROI is only the same as masternode earnings (expressed as a percentage) in one case = the stablecoin case. But Dash is not a stablecoin so it doesn't apply.


qwizzie
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December 18, 2020, 12:34:35 PM
Last edit: December 18, 2020, 12:56:14 PM by qwizzie

Calling the masternode reward "ROI" is therefore a misnomer. It is not a 6% "return" on anything. It's just 6% of the collateral but that's not what you invested, it's what you purchased WITH your investment.

I invested in Dash because of its masternode rewards and its MN payment schedule (MN rewards were scheduled to go from 30% to 60% of the blockreward in two years, back in 2014)
I therefore think it is perfectly reasonably to call it ROI, specially since i also had certain expectations about future ROI and was focused on increasing that ROI even more by setting up more
masternodes. The capital loss and capital gain situations as described in your example is something i am anticipating and take into account during tax events.

I think there is just more then one way of looking at this. Particularly when you have expectations about a much higher Dash price appreciation over time and are looking at this from a long-term
perspective.

The fastest way to lose money, is to listen to people that present their personal assumptions as facts
Learn from the past, set detailed and vivid goals for the future and live in the only moment of time over which you have any control : now
toknormal
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December 18, 2020, 12:45:01 PM


I invested in Dash because of its masternode rewards and its MN payment schedule...I therefore think it is perfectly reasonably to call it ROI

You may think that but it isn't "perfectly reasonable" and no self respecting investor would accept that definition. If it held, it would mean that a positive "ROI" could still leave you with a valueless holding.
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December 18, 2020, 01:15:49 PM


I invested in Dash because of its masternode rewards and its MN payment schedule...I therefore think it is perfectly reasonably to call it ROI

You may think that but it isn't "perfectly reasonable" and no self respecting investor would accept that definition. If it held, it would mean that a positive "ROI" could still leave you with a valueless holding.

Very few investments are without risk. Specially in the crypto space.

The fastest way to lose money, is to listen to people that present their personal assumptions as facts
Learn from the past, set detailed and vivid goals for the future and live in the only moment of time over which you have any control : now
toknormal
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December 18, 2020, 02:26:35 PM


Very few investments are without risk. Specially in the crypto space.

Yes indeed. And abuse of terminology only increases that risk. So stop mis-labelling masternode reward percentages as "ROI".
qwizzie
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December 18, 2020, 02:38:03 PM


Very few investments are without risk. Specially in the crypto space.

Yes indeed. And abuse of terminology only increases that risk. So stop mis-labelling masternode reward percentages as "ROI".

Hard to believe Dash masternodes once had 18% ROI, those good old days  Wink

Link : https://news.bitcoin.com/study-dash-masternode-18-roi/

So many articles and website use ROI to describe the masternode rewards, i wonder why.... i guess they also consider it a return on investment.

https://masternodes.online/currencies/DASH/ (ROI, but a bit on the low side)
https://www.mnroi.info/coin/DASH
https://mastersofnodes.com/masternodes-roi
https://conscious.outgrow.us/dash-calculator-2017

The fastest way to lose money, is to listen to people that present their personal assumptions as facts
Learn from the past, set detailed and vivid goals for the future and live in the only moment of time over which you have any control : now
toknormal
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December 18, 2020, 02:45:40 PM


So many articles and website use ROI to describe it, i wonder why.... i guess they also consider it a return on investment.

But it isn't and no investor that researches Dash is going to pretend it is, so stop using it because it only obscures the understanding of how the monetary mechanics of our investment work. It works for stablecoins but not for Dash as demonstrated here.
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December 18, 2020, 02:46:40 PM
Last edit: December 18, 2020, 07:58:03 PM by qwizzie


So many articles and website use ROI to describe it, i wonder why.... i guess they also consider it a return on investment.

But it isn't and no investor that researches Dash is going to pretend it is, so stop using it because it only obscures the understanding of how the monetary mechanics of our investment work.

Or maybe your terminology is just too shortsighted ?
Funny how someone can speak for all investors researching Dash.

And no, i will not stop using the term ROI in this forum. What a silly thing to demand.

The fastest way to lose money, is to listen to people that present their personal assumptions as facts
Learn from the past, set detailed and vivid goals for the future and live in the only moment of time over which you have any control : now
toknormal
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December 18, 2020, 02:57:19 PM


And no, i will not stop using the term ROI in this forum. What a silly thing to demand.

Masternode ROI is:

(Annual Reward + Capital Gain or Loss on the Collateral) as a percentage of the opening value (in dollars or other equivalent stable currency) of 1000 Dash.

It is not:

(Reward / Collateral)

You can continue to call it that if you like but it's extremely misleading at best and outright deception at worst.
qwizzie
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December 18, 2020, 02:59:45 PM
Last edit: December 18, 2020, 07:58:54 PM by qwizzie


And no, i will not stop using the term ROI in this forum. What a silly thing to demand.

Masternode ROI is:

(Annual Reward + Capital Gain or Loss on the Collateral) as a percentage of the opening value (in dollars or other equivalent stable currency) of 1000 Dash.

It is not:

(Reward / Collateral)

You can continue to call it that if you like but it's extremely misleading at best and outright deception at worst.

Dash Masternode ROI as referenced in several websites and in numerous articles has nothing to do with FIAT or capital gain or capital loss, it is a crypto-based ROI that just focus on
the 1000 Dash collateral & the masternode rewards (in Dash) and converting those MN rewards (in Dash) to a yearly figure (in Dash) and then calculating the percentage difference.
Nothing more and nothing less. It is merely used as interest calculation.

Examples :

1000 Dash to 1056,76 Dash = 5.68 % (https://dash-news.de/dashtv / pille)
56,76 dash / 365 days = 0,1555068493150685 Dash per day
56,76 dash / 12 months = 4,73 Dash per month

1000 Dash to 1059,837735 Dash = 5.98% (http://178.254.23.111/~pub/Dash/Dash_Info.html / Payments per Day/ crowning site)
59,837735 / 365 days = 0,163939 Dash per day
59,837735 / 12 months =  4,99 Dash per month

This is so typical of toknormal, once again trying to enforce his own terminology onto this forum, when it is clear the crypto space is using another terminology (interest calculation).
Just like masternodes supposedly also functioning as zero-cost miners (or visa versa), talking about extremely misleading at best and outright deception at worst ....  pfffffff

The fastest way to lose money, is to listen to people that present their personal assumptions as facts
Learn from the past, set detailed and vivid goals for the future and live in the only moment of time over which you have any control : now
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December 18, 2020, 03:50:18 PM


Miners meanwhile are a business. It's a very different model. They're not investors in Dash, they're investors in mining equipment.


Bravo!  I couldn't have said it better myself!  Are you coming around to the way of the SPORK21, Tok?  Grin  People buying 1000 DASH collaterals are however investors in the network, that is why Ryan Taylor tipped the scales to favour the Mnodes and drive further investment into DASH and not Bitmain.  He sounds like a smart guy don't he? Cheesy
toknormal
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December 18, 2020, 04:10:45 PM


People buying 1000 DASH collaterals are however investors in the network, that is why Ryan Taylor tipped the scales to favour the Mnodes and drive further investment into DASH and not Bitmain.  He sounds like a smart guy don't he? Cheesy


About as smart as replacing gold with sand so you don't have to pay miners to dig it.


This is so typical of toknormal, once again trying to enforce his own terminology onto this forum


xkcdd
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December 18, 2020, 04:27:37 PM


About as smart as replacing gold with sand so you don't have to pay miners to dig it.


Lie!  A DASH is equivalent regards of source (Miner/MN).
toknormal
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December 18, 2020, 04:32:20 PM



About as smart as replacing gold with sand so you don't have to pay miners to dig it.


Lie!  A DASH is equivalent regards of source (Miner/MN).

That is an unfortunate fact we can agree on and why it's no longer as expensive as its 100% mined equivalents that we used to share the top 10/20 marketcap range with.
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December 18, 2020, 04:33:38 PM
Last edit: December 18, 2020, 06:38:28 PM by qwizzie

Return on Investment (ROI) has more then one definition :

Quote
In the context of cryptocurrencies, ROI refers to the approximate return on investment if purchased at the time of launch, or earliest known price.
The results may surprise you as the favourite Bitcoin only ranked 5th among the top 30 cryptocurrencies.



Source : https://blockchain.news/analysis/which-cryptocurrency-has-the-highest-roi-as-of-q1-2020-bitcoin-only-ranked-5th

In crypto ROI can also be used for interest percentage calculation, which is what we have been discussing for awhile now.
And i am sure ROI can also be used in financial or fiscal situations to calculate the amount of return on a particular investment through gain of investment divided by cost of investment,
but that is not what the Dash Masternode ROI is being used for on many sites and articles these days (or in the past).



We are discussing the Dash Masternode ROI being used as a simple crypto annual interest percentage calculation with regards to its Dash collateral, not to calculate the amount of return
relative to gain of investment divided by cost of investment or ROI relative to a certain time of purchase or earliest known price.

The fastest way to lose money, is to listen to people that present their personal assumptions as facts
Learn from the past, set detailed and vivid goals for the future and live in the only moment of time over which you have any control : now
toknormal
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December 18, 2020, 05:01:35 PM


Return on Investment (ROI) has more then one definition :

No there isn't there's only 1 which is the one cited in my previous post. Any other definition is philosophical at most.

We are discussing the Dash Masternode ROI being used as a simple crypto annual interest percentage calculation with regards to its Dash collateral

The don't called it "ROI" because it isn't a return on investment, it's a rate of accrual of Dash which is a very different thing. They are even numerically different. They can even have different signs, one plus the other minus.

The two cannot be conflated unless it's a stablecoin.
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December 18, 2020, 05:07:13 PM
Last edit: December 18, 2020, 05:21:09 PM by qwizzie


Return on Investment (ROI) has more then one definition :

No there isn't there's only 1 which is the one cited in my previous post. Any other definition is philosophical at most.

We are discussing the Dash Masternode ROI being used as a simple crypto annual interest percentage calculation with regards to its Dash collateral

The don't called it "ROI" because it isn't a return on investment, it's a rate of accrual of Dash which is a very different thing. They are even numerically different. They can even have different signs, one plus the other minus.

The two cannot be conflated unless it's a stablecoin.

As more then one definition of ROI is being used in crypto, i think our current Masternode ROI reference in cryptospace is pretty clear and i feel there is no problem using it. Specially seeing how widely used it is already.
Hell, even Messari.io use ROI for crypto currencies. The only person having a problem with it, is you. I am sure in time you will get over it.

The fastest way to lose money, is to listen to people that present their personal assumptions as facts
Learn from the past, set detailed and vivid goals for the future and live in the only moment of time over which you have any control : now
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December 18, 2020, 05:12:25 PM
Last edit: December 18, 2020, 05:32:16 PM by birdonthewire


Bravo!  I couldn't have said it better myself!  Are you coming around to the way of the SPORK21, Tok?  Grin  People buying 1000 DASH collaterals are however investors in the network, that is why Ryan Taylor tipped the scales to favour the Mnodes and drive further investment into DASH and not Bitmain.  He sounds like a smart guy don't he? Cheesy

For an idiot like you, yes  Cheesy ... because Rtaylor knows perfectly well the type of greedy illiterate to whom he directs his manipulative solutions. And with that criterion, almost standard in the network of retarded con artists, who can be surprised by a shameful debate of almost a page and a half of endless stupidity like the one you are giving us?

The "big fish" that your suicidal and aneuronal hipercentralized model - hipercentrazation which strips crypto of value - is looking for ...are not DASH holders with thousands of tokens that have not configured Mnodes, but OUT-of-DASH capital that you are trying to attract.

Therefore, any ROI oriented to that profile, must be estimated in BTC, fiat ethers, etc...  the capital contributed by the potential scammed ... but precisely NEVER in DASH. How much it can increase in these toxic dungs that you are offering, is irrelevant for any investor in the face of such a level of enormous objective risk. You're not looking for rich ... but rich idiots.

The absolute last straw is to expose it in terms of a centralized garbage that has failed to retain even 10% of its wealth since ATH. It's like offering to exchange Gold for radioactive dung. Or by shots to the temple. (Although, of course, it is the only thing you can expose, since any other reference is absolutely ruinous).

DASH is priced Spring 2017. The scam network has gobbled up any capital inflows since then. Now, even in S2F it drowns you, because in the middle of the crypto rally, it does not interest even the most idiots ... so that parasitic demand will not only devour the Treasury, but even the scab on the walls.

By the way, the TokNormal model is also wrong. Without endowing DASH with a real decentralization, the trend will continue to gobble up resources (in addition to becoming more concentrated with each step , aggravating the underlying problem).

The endogamous and claustrophobic measures in your obsessive framework in a loop of drain and destruction of wealth only contribute to error No. 1 that threatens the project: That you subordinate its growth to mass adoption, but you condemn the adopters to enrich a thieving elite , without them doing it themselves. Treatment that they will despise for the benefit of another chain that DOES integrate them fully and enriches their contribution.

It should be very easy to understand ... even for you.  Wink


 DASH IS THE VACCINE AGAINST THE NAKAMOTO´S CANNIBALISM* ( and its extractive virus, BTC ) 

*Parasitic growth system based on the transfer of wealth through speculative bubbles (the same old scam of the fiat global elite ...in a new format)

https://discord.com/channels/370148711088652288/660351836292775936/773522887616757770
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