[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[goin2mars]

On 1. I can concede a bit from the previous stance that ASICs completely destroy decentralization in the sense it can provably allow large-scale growth after a sufficient amount of time has been spent without them growing the base network, and only a certain amount of decentralization is lost, and ASICs are not much more "profitable" except for energy savings in the sense that using two of them will give you 1000x more money than using two computers (or previous generation of network supporters), and the cost of purchasing them isn't an ungodly amount so that I might consider an investment. To this effect, the power won't be out of my hands for long . . and that I might be okay with. I feel like if nothing else this should be a balance where if the scales were originally tipped in my direction, they should be tipped in the other so long as they can once again be tipped in my favor.

On 2. I could never see no problems in a hard fork. There are always major problems in forking a coin. Again, my main example is Litecoin. The original spirit of the coin was that it was ASIC proof. After the stance switched to ASIC resistant . . people saw this as an open door to create new currencies and splinter off of the main fork. Now the stance is clearly neither of these as the ASIC machines are here . . and we're left with the core team itself addressing questions as to a hard fork amongst people making yet more of their own "asic-proof/resistant" forks. One concession leads to another which leads to another . . and this has pulled attention and value away from Litecoin and into a multitude of various Scrypt forks. My point is that the spirit of the community is not and never will be one unified spirit. Anonymity does not have to be part of your algorithm and I refuse to believe it will be. Take for example Bytecoin . . not the sha256 one but the real one based on CryptoNight.

While I agree with many of your points I'm not sure if I understand what you want to say in conclusion.
That one concession leads to another is correct. But what will follow from that? Ignoring changing environments and stay at your roots till new currencies are multiple years ahead on a technical basis (and therefore also in security)?
In my opinion a coin that claims to be good enough for a substantial market capitalization (I mean here real living economy and not pump&dump) needs to take care of all technical developments and change its code basis significantly from time to time. There's no way around.

That said, a coin developer needs to decide whether he wants to create a coin for mass adoption and daily use, then he will be conservative and very careful in changing substantial parts of the code.
If you want to create a coin just for exploring a specific aspect without the desire of being the next Dollar, then much faster transformations are totally legit. Not every coin is made to be investor friendly or easy to use for non technical persons.

What I want to say is: each coin must decide what it wants to be.

This is a really difficult discussion as so many different aspect and arguments are coming in - hope I don't got lost in it  

I was trying to build off the idea that in choosing a master node (or attributing another part of DarkSend) based on data yield from the previous block found (this is how DarkSend works from my understanding, but someone please tell me if I'm wrong) .. it seems that the basis of allowing anonymity is permanently tied to (becomes some function of) the hash function itself. Personally I see it as something that can be independent of the hash function, but these are just hopes and dreams from what I can tell is available right now .. with alternatives like regular CoinJoin or 3rd party mixing (Still have a lot of reading to do, but I think there's enough here to make my point). I could be totally wrong though, and this might be the best way to go about this.

As far as what follows from the concessions .. that depends a lot on the decisions that are made and how Litecoin turns out in the next few months. I could easily see faults you mention with ignoring a changing landscape and not adapting . . and I'm sure they do too otherwise they would be laughing at x11 . . but even if it is flawed it's still wide open to a bigger vector. The same one that's in bitcoin as well . . if the price went up 100x in the next few months . . yet it's still flawed, outdated, and offers nothing new besides the Scrypt PoW . . people will still hold on to it and continue because it has an established value. I see it as a form of bribery. Not that it's a terrible thing, just that that's what it seems like to me. "Hold onto your coins because we say they're worth xxx dollars," seems like a strange way to keep value to me is all. Also, if Sha256 itself is ruined somehow, at least there would be a chance for Scrypt to survive.

Apart from that, the other clear result so far is new hashing functions. We now have Scrypt-Jane, n-Scrypt, X11 and other numerous chained algorithms all available to serve as a suitable PoW for the infrastructure that goes into these coins. Each one a definite leap toward moving away from pennies, dimes, nickels and quarters.

More toward your point about changing algorithms though . . this introduces some tough back-end issues for me. Let's say that Vertcoin decided to switch to x11 from n-scrypt tomorrow. In this situation, you are moving from a capability for one person to mine 5-6 times as much as before, and instead mine with a cloud of computers instead of just a graphics card. In this case, the first people that flocked to your coin will immediately feel cheated just because the difficulty would go from 200 to about 1200 overnight. Every hope, assumption or definition of "what would an 800 difficulty be like" would be immediately be gone. You're effectively changing the entire coin to a different one . . while calling it the same one.

All this amidst others who have decided that doing something like that generally requires making an "alt" coin to begin with . . well I would imagine panic and bedlam if we're talking about 50 million dollars in market cap. I've taken the example to an extreme here . . but I guess what I'm getting at is that these algorithms are all open-source. Respecting the entire concept of that, to me, involves never taking someone else's algorithm (and usually coin concept) after I've already settled on my own. I guess I could settle on a middle ground here and say that as long as it's not an open-source ripoff,and instead an original improvement I can deal with algorithm changes.

[Viecoin]

Delicious algo. Getting 953 khash on 1gb 7850.

[Enzwell]

Who needs an asic!

"Hackers turn security camera DVRs into bitcoin miners"
http://rt.com/usa/hackers-security-dvrs-bitcoin-miners-913/

[nzminer]

Thats why POW coins are not sustainable.
NXT has a real future once the jolly things get distributed, since no expensive mining farms are required.
There is not enough room for all these altcoins,  there is only enough room for 5 or 6 coins max i reckon.
Most of these coins will be dead in 12 months, the hard thing is trying to predict what ones will be successfull.
I do see some future in darkcoin, so im mining some, but i think its going to be easier to pump and dump other altcoins into darkcoin, since its difficulty is so high, i wished i mined this at the start, i could have got 400 coins a day!

[TanteStefana]

Just want to say one more time, in case I missed saying it, I'm super sad lotterymining pool is closing.    I've enjoyed being there, I even won a lottery.  If any pool were going to be here forever, I honestly thought lotterymining would have been it.  I'll be mining there until April 22, then I may retire my computers from mining and start gaming again  

I hope you, CHAOSiTEC and your wife will soon be able to buy that house, and that you fill it with little ones  And I especially hope you'll still come talk to us here.  I'm glad the dice game and wheel of fortune, etc... are still going to be run by you, that means you're still invested in us  Thanks for all you've done for us, you really were responsible for a lot of the good vibes we have here in this thread!

Oh BTW, Evan must have updated the beta 5 wallet, because it did finally sync 

[camosoul]

Thats why POW coins are not sustainable.
NXT has a real future once the jolly things get distributed, since no expensive mining farms are required.
There is not enough room for all these altcoins,  there is only enough room for 5 or 6 coins max i reckon.
Most of these coins will be dead in 12 months, the hard thing is trying to predict what ones will be successfull.

I can't find a way for anything you said here to be valid. Please convince me.

[goin2mars]

Thats why POW coins are not sustainable.
NXT has a real future once the jolly things get distributed, since no expensive mining farms are required.
There is not enough room for all these altcoins,  there is only enough room for 5 or 6 coins max i reckon.
Most of these coins will be dead in 12 months, the hard thing is trying to predict what ones will be successfull.
I do see some future in darkcoin, so im mining some, but i think its going to be easier to pump and dump other altcoins into darkcoin, since its difficulty is so high, i wished i mined this at the start, i could have got 400 coins a day!

But that always seemed like a cop-out to me . . in that all I can think that was said when it was started was: "Well we can't figure out how to make it decentralized so we'll just start at the end and move toward the middle."

I respect the effort as a whole and hope it finds true growth, but it's basically like someone telling me: "I am rich now because I made a stake a long time before you did, and you should do so now so that you can spread the word." Just doesn't sit right with me.

Just because PoW coins are susceptible to the same centralization that NXT started with doesn't mean at all that it's not sustainable. It just means that nobody's came up with a way to slow the process to a complete crawl yet. I'm not ready to say, and probably never will be ready to say, that we should just abandon a PoW concept.

[nzminer]

Thats why POW coins are not sustainable.
NXT has a real future once the jolly things get distributed, since no expensive mining farms are required.
There is not enough room for all these altcoins,  there is only enough room for 5 or 6 coins max i reckon.
Most of these coins will be dead in 12 months, the hard thing is trying to predict what ones will be successfull.

I can't find a way for anything you said here to be valid. Please convince me.

Seriously, most of these coins are crap, kittencoin, flappycoin, etc, do you really think that shops are going to have the means of accepting all these currencies? Not to mention the values on them are so low, with some coins i would need over a million coins for a cup on coffee, and we still havnt got any coins that are the speed of EFTPOS or credit card, NXT is the only currency that im aware of that can have instant confirmations.
Most of these altcoins will be pumped and dumped into bitcoin, litecoin and a few other "professional" valuable coins.
Im just sick of seeing all these cloned coins with a different logo and no serious development put into them, most are just different block times and the amount of coins issues that have changed.
Darkcoin is one of the few coins with some serious innovation. Dogecoin is only successful because its attached to a meme and has a huge community, i see more future with doge than many other altcoins.
What we need is a unified global currency, and that was the whole idea of bitcoin, and it still will be a major currency, but look how fast its dropped in value, and its still going down.
I think alot of people are creating these coins in the hope it will do the same thing as bitcoin and make a quick buck, not to say that it wont happen, but with so many coins to choose from, what one is it going to be? I dont have the resources to mine them all and im sure no one else does either, the list of altcoins is growing by the day.

[TanteStefana]

Thats why POW coins are not sustainable.
NXT has a real future once the jolly things get distributed, since no expensive mining farms are required.
There is not enough room for all these altcoins,  there is only enough room for 5 or 6 coins max i reckon.
Most of these coins will be dead in 12 months, the hard thing is trying to predict what ones will be successfull.

I can't find a way for anything you said here to be valid. Please convince me.

I know a lot of people have stated in many articles that they believe only 5 or 6 coins will ultimately survive.  But the more I think about it, the more I can see many  more coins finding a nitch if more of the population start to use them.  It will be interesting to see where we are 10, 15, 20 years from now.  The press is printing gloom and doom again.  It's so silly, people obviously don't truly understand the value crypto coins bring to the market.  But of course time will tell!

[nzminer]

Thats why POW coins are not sustainable.
NXT has a real future once the jolly things get distributed, since no expensive mining farms are required.
There is not enough room for all these altcoins,  there is only enough room for 5 or 6 coins max i reckon.
Most of these coins will be dead in 12 months, the hard thing is trying to predict what ones will be successfull.
I do see some future in darkcoin, so im mining some, but i think its going to be easier to pump and dump other altcoins into darkcoin, since its difficulty is so high, i wished i mined this at the start, i could have got 400 coins a day!

But that always seemed like a cop-out to me . . in that all I can think that was said when it was started was: "Well we can't figure out how to make it decentralized so we'll just start at the end and move toward the middle."

I respect the effort as a whole and hope it finds true growth, but it's basically like someone telling me: "I am rich now because I made a stake a long time before you did, and you should do so now so that you can spread the word." Just doesn't sit right with me.

Just because PoW coins are susceptible to the same centralization that NXT started with doesn't mean at all that it's not sustainable. It just means that nobody's came up with a way to slow the process to a complete crawl yet. I'm not ready to say, and probably never will be ready to say, that we should just abandon a PoW concept.

I would like to see a POW concept that could limit the maximum amount of coins any one miner could get per day, no matter what hashpower they throw at it, of course that would be hard to implement, but i would like to see a coin where the reward and difficulty stays constant, but not have a ridiculously high reward to start with, ie with some coins we still have miners who have millions of coins from the start, but down the track, the late miners get just a few coins per day.

I think the idea behind stability shares tried to address this.

And with bitcoin, i highly doubt its going to be worth mining soon, even with the newest ASICS, the power costs probably cost more than the coins earned with the price of bitcoin halving.

[camosoul]

I can't find a way for anything you said here to be valid. Please convince me.

Seriously, most of these coins are crap, kittencoin, flappycoin, etc, do you really think that shops are going to have the means of accepting all these currencies?

C-cex.com
Cryptsy.com

and so many others... Is it so hard to cut and paste a deposit address from any of their offered currencies into a QR code generating website?

Cryptocurrencies are pretty liquid in interexchange. It doesn't really matter what crypto you've got. ShitCoins are everywhere. So? Are you new? ;-)

Not to mention the values on them are so low, with some coins i would need over a million coins for a cup on coffee, and we still havnt got any coins that are the speed of EFTPOS or credit card, NXT is the only currency that im aware of that can have instant confirmations.

I don't see how either one of these points really matters... How many pennies does it take to buy a car? Why does it have to be instant? EFTPOS/NXT, for what benefit? UPS still takes days to deliver... Face to Face I generally don't use Crypto because I hate explaining it to noobs.

Most of these altcoins will be pumped and dumped into bitcoin, litecoin and a few other "professional" valuable coins.

Yeah? So?

Im just sick of seeing all these cloned coins with a different logo and no serious development put into them, most are just different block times and the amount of coins issues that have changed.

You're failing to see the advantages of a buttload of easily interchangeable cryptocurrencies... Their blockchains. I don't even care if the coin sucks and is a pointless clone. If I just want to push around impossible blockchain records/monitoring, I can. Switching around on crypto-only exchanges is the ultimate mixer.

Darkcoin is one of the few coins with some serious innovation. Dogecoin is only successful because its attached to a meme and has a huge community, i see more future with doge than many other altcoins.

Dogecoin leverages humanity's most abundant resource; stupidity in large groups. Thus, if it's stupid, but works, it isn't stupid.

What we need is a unified global currency, and that was the whole idea of bitcoin, and it still will be a major currency, but look how fast its dropped in value, and its still going down.

All the altcoins are unified by the fact that since there is no direct exchange for them, they are all just extensions of BitCoin, essentially. Pick the one you like, or don't, or just want to float through for the day or the hour. Lots of people using VertCoin where you are? But you don't like VertCoin? So? It's barely a point to differentiate when the exchanges are so fluid.

I think alot of people are creating these coins in the hope it will do the same thing as bitcoin and make a quick buck, not to say that it wont happen, but with so many coins to choose from, what one is it going to be? I dont have the resources to mine them all and im sure no one else does either, the list of altcoins is growing by the day.

I think you're just new... You're having the same thoughts many other people already thought through 3 years ago. Altcoins are actually a blessing. Even the crappy ones.

[nzminer]

Thats why POW coins are not sustainable.
NXT has a real future once the jolly things get distributed, since no expensive mining farms are required.
There is not enough room for all these altcoins,  there is only enough room for 5 or 6 coins max i reckon.
Most of these coins will be dead in 12 months, the hard thing is trying to predict what ones will be successfull.

I can't find a way for anything you said here to be valid. Please convince me.

I know a lot of people have stated in many articles that they believe only 5 or 6 coins will ultimately survive.  But the more I think about it, the more I can see many  more coins finding a nitch if more of the population start to use them.  It will be interesting to see where we are 10, 15, 20 years from now.  The press is printing gloom and doom again.  It's so silly, people obviously don't truly understand the value crypto coins bring to the market.  But of course time will tell!

I just wish i had a time machine, because i would know for sure what coin(s) will succeed!
I need to know, because i cant wast my time and money mining coins that are not going to be worth anything! lol

[camosoul]

I would like to see a POW

The bottom line to the PoW vs PoS argument is that PoW isn't broken and doesn't need to be fixed. My car might get a flat tire, but I'm not panicking about it and trying to convince people that air-filled tires are just a disaster waiting to happen and the whole world is going to implode as a result of using them... So what if PoW has a long-shot potential issue? I might get hit by lightning, again, while simultaneously winning the lottery in 4 States at once, all of which I have never visited or even played the Lottery, but I still win as a token of wild chance that causes the wind to blow those 4 winning lottery tickets into my open mouth as I snore too loudly inside a dumpster in Harlem. My farts could turn into a zombie-causing virus that destroys the world. It COULD happen... Not likely tho...

[Armando]

I would like to see a POW

The bottom line to the PoW vs PoS argument is that PoW isn't broken and doesn't need to be fixed. My car might get a flat tire, but I'm not panicking about it and trying to convince people that air-filled tires are just a disaster waiting to happen and the whole world is going to implode as a result of using them... So what if PoW has a long-shot potential issue? I might get hit by lightning, again, while simultaneously winning the lottery in 4 States at once, all of which I have never visited or even played the Lottery, but I still win as a token of wild chance that causes the wind to blow those 4 winning lottery tickets into my open mouth as I snore too loudly inside a dumpster in Harlem. My farts could turn into a zombie-causing virus that destroys the world. It COULD happen... Not likely tho...

IMO PoW isn't broken and no need to fix it, but is better to change it to PoS 

Really, look at last PoS shitcoins like MintCoin, BlackCoin etc. Aren't they just useless clones? But look at that trading volume and prices! PoS is new trend, miners can still mine such coins with the help of multipools, people like it. There still are not so many PoS coins, and except NXT and some projects in development, there is nothing significant at all.

[P2PHash]

Updated to the new wallet and network! Now with Cryptsy price displayed
Address: drk.p2phash.com

P2Pool benefits:
* No registration required
* Distributed hashrate
* Immediate payouts after a block is found
* Higher payouts with transaction fees paid to miners
* No account hack possible

Fee: only 0.5%
Start mining within seconds! Just point your miner to p2phash.com:7903 and use the Darkcoin address from your wallet for username, the password doesn't matter.

You can now follow us on twitter: https://twitter.com/P2PHash

[nzminer]

Yes camosoul, i am fairly new, but im not stupid, i understand how cryptos work, i myself work in the IT field (are these coins just for geeks?) lol
But are you saying i should keep all my coins whether they are doge digibyte, mintcoin etc?
Will they all rise relative to bitcoin?
I dont like the limited distribution of NXT, but i still get attracted to its system and design, so in turn i have been mining at hashrate.org for them.
Will all these altcoins retain some value or become completley worthless?
Im looking into the future here in a situation when these cryptos are used in retail shops, where retailers cant wait for a transaction to complete, hence why speed is the most important aspect. The volatility of cryptos is a nightmare for retailers at present also, since the price drops up and down like a yo-yo. That will be the biggest hurdle, but hopefully this is wont be a problem after adoption.

[chaeplin]

~

... must have Java installed to use NXT ....

[evan79]

I am mining with an R9-280x and a 7970
I am only getting 2 MH per card, but from what i read i should expect 2.4 MH per card, is this correct?
If so what are the ideal settings for SG miner?
I wish i mined this coin from the start! Apparently with that hashrate, i would have mined 300-400 darkcoins a day!

Do you have the right / latest sgminer (based on 4.1)?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=475795.0

Yes i believe so, but ill check, i downloaded mine from the official blackcoin page.

i have 280x`s and 7970 and can only get 2 MH per card which i believe is the norm using sph 4.1, with 290`s you can get 2.5 MH.

[nzminer]

I am mining with an R9-280x and a 7970
I am only getting 2 MH per card, but from what i read i should expect 2.4 MH per card, is this correct?
If so what are the ideal settings for SG miner?
I wish i mined this coin from the start! Apparently with that hashrate, i would have mined 300-400 darkcoins a day!

Do you have the right / latest sgminer (based on 4.1)?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=475795.0

Yes i believe so, but ill check, i downloaded mine from the official blackcoin page.

i have 280x`s and 7970 and can only get 2 MH per card which i believe is the norm using sph 4.1, with 290`s you can get 2.5 MH.

Some people are reporting 2.4MH whith theirs thats all, but they are probably doing some serious overclocking...

[LimLims]

Thats why POW coins are not sustainable.
NXT has a real future once the jolly things get distributed, since no expensive mining farms are required.
There is not enough room for all these altcoins,  there is only enough room for 5 or 6 coins max i reckon.
Most of these coins will be dead in 12 months, the hard thing is trying to predict what ones will be successfull.

I can't find a way for anything you said here to be valid. Please convince me.

I know a lot of people have stated in many articles that they believe only 5 or 6 coins will ultimately survive.  But the more I think about it, the more I can see many  more coins finding a nitch if more of the population start to use them.  It will be interesting to see where we are 10, 15, 20 years from now.  The press is printing gloom and doom again.  It's so silly, people obviously don't truly understand the value crypto coins bring to the market.  But of course time will tell!

I agree with you. Once crypto becomes ubiquitous and we all have payment apps on our smartphones, the door is wide open for altcoins and the competition will expand to fill every niche in the market. There's no reason these apps couldn't support payment via any altcoin, either directly or seamlessly converted to the merchant's desired coin via an exchange. I could pick DarkKitty3000Coin on my phone, swipe at the terminal, and the merchant receives BTC. It'll happen.