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Author Topic: DefaultTrust changes  (Read 53729 times)
theymos
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January 09, 2019, 06:03:26 PM
Last edit: January 14, 2019, 01:10:46 AM by theymos
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 #1

For years I've been unhappy with how DefaultTrust ended up as a centralized and largely-untouchable authority, but I was reluctant to change it because the alternatives seemed too messy. However, I've finally decided to try some changes, and we'll see how it works.

#1
As a special exception to the normal algorithm for determining a user's trust network, if you are on the default trust list ("DT1") but more other DT1 members distrust you than explicitly trust you, then it is as if you are distrusted by the default trust list for all purposes except for this very DT1-composition determination.

So if someone on DT1 is doing something stupid, you can ask other DT1 members to distrust them.

See here for live info on this "DT voting".

#2
You can view any page as if you were using the default trust settings by putting ;dt at the end of the URL. Eg. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=35;dt

#3
I will periodically (maybe every month) be reconstructing the default trust list to include everyone who matches these criteria:
 - If rank was determined solely using earned merit, then you must be of at least Member rank.
 - You must have been online sometime within the last 3 days.
 - Your trust list must include at least 10 users, not including ~distrust entries.
 - You must not be banned or manually blacklisted from selection.
 - You must have posted sometime within the last 30 days.
 - You must have at least 10 people directly trusting you each with an earned merit of at least 10, not including merit you yourself sent. These "votes" are limited.
 - You must have at least 2 people directly trusting you with an earned merit of at least 250, not including merit you yourself sent. These "votes" are limited.

Unlike the previous policy, I will not generally be trying to cultivate a good list; that will be left to the DT1 members themselves. However, I reserve the right to remove you and blacklist you from future selection if you engage in egregious and obvious abuse, or if multiple known alt accounts could be selected.

Currently not that many users are eligible. If hundreds of users would be selected in the future, I plan to instead choose a random subset of about 100 eligible users each time. This DT1 reconstruction may even automatically happen on a schedule in the future, but it doesn't currently.



A major goal of this is to allow retaliatory distrusts and ratings to actually have some chance of mattering so that contentious ratings have an actual cost. If someone is obviously scamming, then any retaliatory rating should not last long due to the DT1 "voting", but if you negative-rate someone for generally disliking them, then their retaliation against you may stick. In borderline cases, it should result in something of a political battle.

This is inspired partly by something that David Friedman said once (though I can't find the quote), that one of the requirements for a peaceful society is the credible threat of retaliation in case you are harmed. As DT was organized previously, one or both sides of a dispute was usually unable to effectively retaliate to a rating, at least via the trust system itself. Now your ability to effectively retaliate will tend to increase as you become more established in the community, which should discourage abuse generally. (Or that's the idea, at least.)

All that being said, I still discourage retaliatory ratings, and with these changes I encourage people to try to "bury the hatchet" and de-escalate rather than trying to use any increased retaliatory power you now have. Also, it's best to make your own custom list, and you must do this if you want to be on DT1.

I am never completely tied to anything, but let's try this for at least a few months and see how it works.

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January 09, 2019, 06:15:47 PM
 #2

I just noticed this when I refresh my profile and want to make a new thread about this in reputation but when I refresh the meta board I saw this.

Many previous DT was removed as well as added.

And lauda is back and those members got tainted (spammers and scammers) with her will be in march of protests shortly.

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January 09, 2019, 06:21:09 PM
Last edit: January 09, 2019, 06:42:52 PM by eddie13
 #3

Oh boy. This should keep things interesting again for a while, stir up the pot..

- You must have at least 10 people directly trusting you each with an earned merit of at least 10
 - You must have at least 1 person directly trusting you with an earned merit of at least 100.

I imagine this "directly trusting" means they have added you to their custom trusted feedback list as opposed to just having left a positive feedback?

Currently not that many users are eligible.

I could see not very members having 10 or more people with >10 merit and 1>100 merit having added them to their trust list. Even current DT..
But current DT1 members are still in even if they don't have these requirements right?

In any case I should take my time to add users to my custom trust list that I would like to see on DT1, or stay there..


Many previous DT was removed as well as added.

And lauda is back and those members got tainted (spammers and scammers) with her will be in march of protests shortly.

I'm not seeing any difference in my trust score or noticing differences in others trust scores..
Lauda's feedback is still showing in untrusted for me and I don't have them excluded..


OK now they have changed.. OgNasty is out wow..
Big changes..

This Space For Rent
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January 09, 2019, 06:30:36 PM
 #4

Uh-oh. So if I send 10 merits to 10 people trusting me then I'm in DT1? That doesn't sound right. Perhaps merits sent by the candidate should be excluded from the calculation. Just to prevent the most egregious abuse (or being accused of abuse when none was intended).

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January 09, 2019, 06:34:57 PM
 #5

Uh-oh. So if I send 10 merits to 10 people trusting me then I'm in DT1?
And maybe including this one
Quote
You must have at least 1 person directly trusting you with an earned merit of at least 100.

But I'm not sure if he/she will be placed in DT1 or DT2 or so.

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January 09, 2019, 06:35:42 PM
 #6

Lately a lot of new improvements are coming out. Copper member, merit, CAPTCHA bypass, hacked account recovery and now this. Is there any BIG change in the horizon?

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January 09, 2019, 06:39:14 PM
 #7

OK now they have changed.. OgNasty is out wow..

Some fresh new faces are in DT1, if I'm looking at this right (with the ;dt parameter)

Loading...

Uh-oh. So if I send 10 merits to 10 people trusting me then I'm in DT1?
And maybe including this one
Quote
You must have at least 1 person directly trusting you with an earned merit of at least 100.

But I'm not sure if he/she will be placed in DT1 or DT2 or so.

Looks like DT1.

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January 09, 2019, 06:47:10 PM
 #8

Some fresh new faces are in DT1, if I'm looking at this right (with the ;dt parameter)

Loading...

Looks like DT2 has become much longer than before.

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January 09, 2019, 06:48:20 PM
 #9

Loading...
Oh jeesh, here comes the drama again.

While it isn't what I had envisioned, the change is welcome. I certainly didn't expect to find myself in DT1 with this change. Shocked
Note/Request: Theymos it might be worth to have a link where you can view current DT list (hierarchical) if it doesn't exist already.

Loyce, time for fresh data dumps!

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January 09, 2019, 06:48:59 PM
 #10

If I have understood the new changes correctly, the people on DT1 & DT2 will rotate every month. Am I wrong?
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January 09, 2019, 06:50:03 PM
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 #11

i would still suggest a set of rules regarding the use of the trust system, specially the negative trust, some people are tagged for silly reasons or without a reference, with the new update of the DT list it's even more important now to agree on some rules that will some how regulate the trust system so people don't get tagged for using the word "lemon".

I know this could be hard to implement, but i think it's essential, for those who trade on the forum with an account that took years to build, getting a negative trust for saying something a DT member does not like is differently unfair.

again i can't forget to thank you for the all the efforts. Thanks for trying to improve the forum continuously.

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January 09, 2019, 06:50:15 PM
 #12

If I have understood the new changes correctly, the people on DT1 & DT2 will rotate every month. Am I wrong?
That's right. DT1 will be constantly changing, thus, DT2 will change as well.

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January 09, 2019, 06:52:29 PM
 #13

Interesting changes, my main account is off DT2, my trust rating went up, and amazingly Lauda went from being excluded on DT2 to being DT1!

I'll have to start thinking about who to include now, this really forces people to stop using only the default list.

Question about #3: say someone is included by 12 but excluded by 5: is he eligible?

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January 09, 2019, 06:53:01 PM
 #14

If I have understood the new changes correctly, the people on DT1 & DT2 will rotate every month. Am I wrong?
That's right. DT1 will be constantly changing, thus, DT2 will change as well.
So, someone Red on one month, can become Green on the very next month?
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January 09, 2019, 06:55:03 PM
 #15

While it isn't what I had envisioned, the change is welcome. I certainly didn't expect to find myself in DT1 with this change. Shocked

I'm guessing this could be the result of you being excluded earlier, which may have caused more people to add you to their custom lists in order to see your red tags.

i would still suggest a set of rules regarding the use of the trust system, specially the negative trust, some people are tagged for silly reasons or without a reference, with the new update of the DT list it's even more important now to agree on some rules that will some how regulate the trust system so people don't get tagged for using the word "lemon".

I know this could be hard to implement, but i think it's essential, for those who trade on the forum with an account that took years to build, getting a negative trust for saying something a DT member does not like is differently unfair.

again i can't forget to thank you for the all the efforts. Thanks for trying to improve the forum continuously.

This change may affect how those negatives are viewed and countered. I think that more passive-aggressive countering (via exclusions) will be possible so anyone with a lemon fetish will probably not last long.

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January 09, 2019, 06:55:31 PM
 #16

So, someone Red on one month, can become Green on the very next month?
Possibly.

For example, Lauda wasn't even on DT2 until those changes came into effect. With her/his inclusion into the DT1 list, tons of users are now red. If she/he gets out of DT1/DT2 next month, those users will go back to normal.

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January 09, 2019, 06:56:15 PM
 #17

Interesting changes, my main account is off DT2, my trust rating went up, and amazingly Laura went from being excluded on DT2 to being DT1!
Well if you consider that I am only rightfully excluded by one person, i.e. OgNasty then it does make sense. TC is inactive, HostFat's exclusions is political retaliation due to the bcash scam.

So, someone Red on one month, can become Green on the very next month?
Doubtful. The DT1 list won't completely change from what I understood:

I will periodically (maybe every month) be reconstructing the default trust list to include everyone who matches these criteria:
Unless you lose some of the criteria, you will stay.

I'm guessing this could be the result of you being excluded earlier, which may have caused more people to add you to their custom lists in order to see your red tags.
Possibly, yeah. This would explain why some random abuser asked me about red trust in the past hour.

For example, Lauda wasn't even on DT2 until those changes came into effect. With her/his inclusion into the DT1 list, tons of users are now red. If she/he gets out of DT1/DT2 next month, those users will go back to normal.
I don't think you get booted off unless one of the criteria no longer applies. I could be wrong! I'm guessing the fastest way of getting kicked out will be exclusions by other DT1 members.

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There are lies, damned lies and statistics. MTwain


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January 09, 2019, 06:57:18 PM
Last edit: January 09, 2019, 07:28:08 PM by DdmrDdmr
 #18

<…> - You must have at least 1 person directly trusting you with an earned merit of at least 100.<…>
Since the above is a key factor, I’ve drawn up a list of the current standing 478 forum members that meet the >= 100 earned merit criteria (see https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wQdLJJLCbTBDMEdSOvOmLnpOIgGLwHTXJZX6BUWyVyY/edit?usp=sharing).

Edit 1: Added to the list the 6.769 forum members with >= 10 earned merits.


Edit 2: I don’t know how natural the whole process is meant to be, or if people may require the aid of a list such as the above to start building their trust list. If a list of a kind is helpful and does not defeat the purpose, then perhaps they could both be added (>=10; >=100 earned merits) as official forum stats, along with the rest of the merit stats.

suchmoon
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Activity: 2128
Merit: 4273


nanny of the forum


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January 09, 2019, 07:01:13 PM
 #19

my main account is off DT2

I'll take 10% of the blame for that - I had you in my list but recently I replaced it with the default for debugging purposes... so that screwed up my own eligibility and possibly some others. Will have to wait for the next month. And I'm hoping many other users will treat this change as a kick in the butt to go and set up their custom lists.

newIndia
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Activity: 1736
Merit: 1032


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January 09, 2019, 07:02:18 PM
 #20

Interesting. This will bring in a hell lot of change in the forum dynamics.

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