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Author Topic: DefaultTrust changes  (Read 71033 times)
Lauda
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January 10, 2019, 02:23:32 PM
 #281

Correct me if I am wrong here fellas, but if everyone creates their own custom trust lists Default Trust will have little to no meaning....
There are only a few thousand users that have a custom trust list. This is not something that you have to worry about.

If you don't trust someone's judgement, you shouldn't include him in your trust list.
I don't think technically it's correct.
Actually it is the only kind of correct. That's what the trust list is for. You trust their judgement (as loyce pointed out), you do not necessarily trust them with e.g. money.

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January 10, 2019, 02:30:47 PM
 #282

You trust their judgement (as loyce pointed out), you do not necessarily trust them with e.g. money.

this x 100000

marlboroza
Gunthar
achow101
ibminer
KWH
qwk
gmaxwell

all on my list due to the way they handle themselves on the forum - never traded, would trust them to make accurate judgments to make this forum a better place all day long though.

Some of us Physical collectors are in a unique situation where we have traded BTC for physicals with no escrow, deals in the $100K plus region and therefore trust each other with finances, but through those relationships we have built up enough to trust judgement as well.


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mdayonliner
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January 10, 2019, 02:44:45 PM
 #283

Actually it is the only kind of correct. That's what the trust list is for. You trust their judgement (as loyce pointed out), you do not necessarily trust them with e.g. money.
But trust system should reflect both trading in Marketplace side and Justification for forum activities side too? My criteria to understand the trust system is:
- I don't have to trust their judgement 100% to add them in my trust network.
I.e: I trust some of the judgement of hilariousandco but I did not like his red mark because I made a mistake offering an escrow. The justification could be giving a warning IMO, people can be mistaken. But this does not mean that I don't trust hilariousandco's judgement entirely. I do trust him and he is one of the user in my trust network.
- If I can not trust someone 100% with my money then there is no way I will add them in my trust network.

I guess the problem is - how we see the trust system. My priority is the marketplace first for trust system then forum actions. But your priority is forum actions first?

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January 10, 2019, 02:48:01 PM
 #284

Can anyone explain please:
- Why do we have DT2?
- Why are we encouraged to set trust depth: 2 ?
- Why is maximum trust depth 4?
DT2 is just part of the entire trust system, it's the default choice, and if you don't like it you can choose anywhere from DT1 to DT4.
I've tried DT4 before, and it was slow already. The amount of data increases exponentially with depth, I haven't tested how long it takes to load now. DT5 and deeper would become very large.

Quote
If you don't trust someone's judgement, you shouldn't include him in your trust list.
I don't think technically it's correct.

Let me give you a hypothetical example.
I can trust Loyce:
- with data analysis
- with money.

I may not trust Loyce:
- views he has about religion.

So overall what should be my stand for Loyce?
When I said "someone's judgement", I meant on judging others. If I tag users based on their religion, you should probably not trust my judgement (and thus not add me to your trust list). If you trust me with money, you can say so in my trust feedback, but it's still not a reason to add me to your trust list.
If, however, you trust my ability to judge others, and agree with the majority of feedback I left, you could add me to your trust list.
(and until recently I didn't know this also includes my ability to add users to my own trust list, so I'm still experimenting with the right users there)

Quote
Quote
DT2 is a derivative of DT1, if you don't like it, you can change your Trust depth to 1 instead of the default 2. Or exclude specific users.
My interpretation of trust depth system is trust dept 1 and seems it's working although default trust with dept 2 is conflicting my rating.
It's a mess now, I add one person and due to their trust list, it changes how I see trust ratings. Let's just see how this works out over time, as more and more users create and adjust their own trust list.

Correct me if I am wrong here fellas, but if everyone creates their own custom trust lists Default Trust will have little to no meaning....
You can (and probably should) keep DefaultTrust on your own trust list, so you have the full force of DT1 and DT2 to add to your own trust ratings.

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January 10, 2019, 02:48:38 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #285

- Why are we encouraged to set trust depth: 2 ?

Who's encouraging that? If you're using a full custom list set it to 0 or 1.

Let me give you a hypothetical example.
I can trust Loyce:
- with data analysis
- with money.

I may not trust Loyce:
- views he has about religion.

So overall what should be my stand for Loyce?

Would LoyceV ever post trust feedback on religious grounds?

You might be confusing opinions and disagreements with trust. I can vehemently disagree with someone on religion, politics, socks with sandals, but still trust them (1) with money, therefore leave then a positive trust rating, or (2) for their judgement regarding trustworthiness of other users, therefore add them to my trust list.

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January 10, 2019, 02:51:53 PM
 #286

I guess the problem is - how we see the trust system. My priority is the marketplace first for trust system then forum actions. But your priority is forum actions first?
It's simple really:
Marketplace first (is likely safe to deal with; does not necessarily have good judgement) -> positive feedback.
Forum actions first (unknown trade safety; has shown good judgement) -> trust list.
Marketplace && forum actions (is likely safe to deal with && has shown good judgement) -> positive feedback && trust list.

Given that a huge amount of trust is handed over for very small trades, I'd prioritize longterm forum activities anyday.

Most of the people that are on my trust list are people that I'd trade with using escrow. Which is fine. You should generally really only trust a very small subset of people here.

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mdayonliner
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January 10, 2019, 02:58:47 PM
 #287

- Why are we encouraged to set trust depth: 2 ?

Who's encouraging that? If you're using a full custom list set it to 0 or 1.
How do default trust work?

Code:
Defaut Trust
Trust Dept: 2
?

Quote
Would LoyceV ever post trust feedback on religious grounds?
Example was hypothetical so he does not have to.

By the way...
Can anyone explain please:
- Why do we have DT2?
- Why are we encouraged to set trust depth: 2 ?
- Why is maximum trust depth 4?

I may missing some basic information. Reference

~
I guess we need a clear set of guidelines to leave feedback to each others and also some guidelines to add someone to our trust network.

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January 10, 2019, 02:59:04 PM
 #288

Let me give you a hypothetical example.
I can trust Loyce:
- with data analysis
- with money.

I may not trust Loyce:
- views he has about religion.

So overall what should be my stand for Loyce?


Then you trust him financially - there would be a reason for that, give him positive trust and add a reference.

you do not trust his views - so why add him to your trust list?

2 different things here that people are confusing and I get it, it took me a while to get my head round it. You trust someone with money - usually there is a reason for that and it is totally separate to trusting someone and how they act/post/react on the forum.


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Lauda
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January 10, 2019, 03:00:17 PM
 #289

- Why is maximum trust depth 4?
Probably to avoid using up too many system resources for calculation as it gets really wide later on(?). Imagine XYZ accounts switching their settings between depth 8 and 10 every few seconds.

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January 10, 2019, 03:02:57 PM
 #290

Is there any way to know whether I belong to anyone's trust list?

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January 10, 2019, 03:04:54 PM
 #291

Is there any way to know whether I belong to anyone's trust list?
See http://bitcointalk.org/trust.txt.xz (updated weekly).

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January 10, 2019, 03:06:44 PM
 #292

Is there any way to know whether I belong to anyone's trust list?

Yeah I’d like to know this too. I’ve been on here since 2014 & become a somewhat respected member (I hope).
How do I see who trusts me?

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January 10, 2019, 03:08:26 PM
 #293

- Why do we have DT2?
Other users have answered this already. DT2 is just the default that theymos set: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=211858.0. You can change if you want.

- Why is maximum trust depth 4?
Because beyond that level it becomes useless. In fact, beyond DT2 it probably becomes close to useless. The number of ratings you see will increase exponentially at each level. If you trust 5 people (level 0 - 5), and each of those trust 5 people (level 1 - 25), and each of those trust 5 people (level 2 - 125), etc, by the time you get to level 5 you are now trusting over 15 thousand people (no duplicates in this hypothetical scenario).

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January 10, 2019, 03:10:27 PM
 #294

How do I see who trusts me?

As far as I know, you don't.

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January 10, 2019, 03:13:57 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #295

Is there any way to know whether I belong to anyone's trust list?

Yeah, go to your Trust Settings page, hierarchical view, and hit Ctrl + f and see how many times your name comes up.

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January 10, 2019, 03:15:39 PM
Merited by LFC_Bitcoin (2), bones261 (1)
 #296

You can - https://bitcointalk.org/trust.txt.xz

This file contains a complete dump of all custom trust. It is updated every Saturday. x->y means x trusts y. x-/>y means x excludes y.

Just Ctrl+F search for your name.

LFC - you are trusted by jeremypwr, Joca97, Fakhoury, Don Pedro Dinero, Devawnm367, and you are excluded by EFS.

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January 10, 2019, 03:18:20 PM
 #297

Can anyone explain please:
- Why do we have DT2?
- Why are we encouraged to set trust depth: 2 ?
- Why is maximum trust depth 4?
DT2 is just part of the entire trust system, it's the default choice, and if you don't like it you can choose anywhere from DT1 to DT4.
I've tried DT4 before, and it was slow already. The amount of data increases exponentially with depth, I haven't tested how long it takes to load now. DT5 and deeper would become very large.

Quote
If you don't trust someone's judgement, you shouldn't include him in your trust list.
I don't think technically it's correct.

Let me give you a hypothetical example.
I can trust Loyce:
- with data analysis
- with money.

I may not trust Loyce:
- views he has about religion.

So overall what should be my stand for Loyce?
When I said "someone's judgement", I meant on judging others. If I tag users based on their religion, you should probably not trust my judgement (and thus not add me to your trust list). If you trust me with money, you can say so in my trust feedback, but it's still not a reason to add me to your trust list.
If, however, you trust my ability to judge others, and agree with the majority of feedback I left, you could add me to your trust list.
(and until recently I didn't know this also includes my ability to add users to my own trust list, so I'm still experimenting with the right users there)

Quote
Quote
DT2 is a derivative of DT1, if you don't like it, you can change your Trust depth to 1 instead of the default 2. Or exclude specific users.
My interpretation of trust depth system is trust dept 1 and seems it's working although default trust with dept 2 is conflicting my rating.
It's a mess now, I add one person and due to their trust list, it changes how I see trust ratings. Let's just see how this works out over time, as more and more users create and adjust their own trust list.

Correct me if I am wrong here fellas, but if everyone creates their own custom trust lists Default Trust will have little to no meaning....
You can (and probably should) keep DefaultTrust on your own trust list, so you have the full force of DT1 and DT2 to add to your own trust ratings.

Interesting.  I have ~DefaultTrust and just use my list of inclusions and exclusions.

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January 10, 2019, 03:18:23 PM
 #298

Is there any way to know whether I belong to anyone's trust list?

Yeah, go to your Trust Settings page and hit Ctrl + f and see how many times your name comes up.

This works only if the people on the default list (DT1 or DT2) or people who you have on your custom list trust you.

For example, if user#50000 not on my trust list, not on the DT list, will trust me it will be no show on https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust, or do I missing something?

It works here, next week https://bitcointalk.org/trust.txt.xz

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January 10, 2019, 03:20:13 PM
 #299

Interesting.  I have ~DefaultTrust and just use my list of inclusions and exclusions.

You don't actually have to exclude DefaultTrust - just delete the entry.

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January 10, 2019, 03:25:43 PM
 #300

Is there any way to know whether I belong to anyone's trust list?

Yeah, go to your Trust Settings page and hit Ctrl + f and see how many times your name comes up.

This works only if the people on the default list (DT1 or DT2) or people who you have on your custom list trust you.

For example, if user#50000 not on my trust list, not on the DT list, will trust me it will be no show on https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust, or do I missing something?


Yeah, you're right, I've just been using my method to quickly check how things are changing regarding my custom list.

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