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Question: Who will be the champion in 2024/25 season?
Manchester City - 33 (47.8%)
Liverpool - 10 (14.5%)
Arsenal - 21 (30.4%)
Chelsea - 0 (0%)
Manchester United - 4 (5.8%)
Totenham - 0 (0%)
Newcastle - 0 (0%)
Other - 1 (1.4%)
Total Voters: 69

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Author Topic: Premier League Prediction Thread 2024/2025  (Read 729437 times)
SOKO-DEKE
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November 11, 2023, 05:42:04 PM
 #95421

A dramatic and profitable win for Man City.
That is if Manchester City will be able to beat Chelsea tomorrow because Chelsea played well against Arsenal, shot down Tottenham and now have a big task against Manchester city. Tottenham are now third with Arsenal leading with a late goal from Trossard against Burnley. Arsenal should be able to score more goals in the second half because they have been very superior in attack, possession and free kicks all through the first half and should have scored more, I do not think that there is much that can be done by Burnley.

I believe anything can happen in tomorrow's game, despite knowing that Manchester City is in better shape than Chelsea. Chelsea may appear to look very strong tomorrow because they are playing at home. If Chelsea can appear so strong the way they played against Arsenal and not relent, I will say that there is a probability for them to win or draw the match, but from the current statistics of the season, if compared, Manchester City is the favorite team to win the game, and with that, I will say they have over 60% chances of winning the match.
 
Whenever Manchester City plays Chelsea, they always find the match tough despite the fact that they will win, so even if Manchester defeats Chelsea in tomorrow's game, I will say it will not be with many goals. Despite the poor performances of Chelsea this season, they have been a challenge for the top clubs on the table because none of the top big teams have been able to win Chelsea this season. Chelsea was able to draw Liverpool, Arsenal, and Tottenham. Now,  tomorrow Chelsea is playing against Manchester City. I may say they play well, but let's see what happens at the end of the match.
 

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November 11, 2023, 05:47:30 PM
 #95422

Finally Tottenham Hotspur has been exposed this season, I believe that I mistaked the fact that they win matches as them being a contender to the English premier league. But I think all that has been exposed.
Chelsea really broke them and today they were lucky to get the lead over wolves but they did not make that count and wolves equalised then later won all in the additional time. I don't think Tottenham Hotspur are a challenger for the prestigious English premier league anymore.

They're a good side, they must have suffered some mental damages from thr emotional and dramatic lose to Chelsea last week monday.
Though they aren't with some potential players which reduced their mentality. For the game ending draw, I'm placing the blame of the coach. At the time they was leading, some players who defend more than attack should have been introduced into the game.

Wolverampton although did well, Sarabia is a not a small player, he is a player who've toured round European footbal. That control and one time finish was goated. He was also responsible for assisting the second goal leading to the winner.
Tottenham Hotspur without the Injured players seems like bottlers to me truthfully.

Manchester United defending was great today, they should have doubled the goal to ease pressure from Luton Town but Marcus Rashford couldn't seize a good chance created by Anthony.

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November 11, 2023, 05:49:15 PM
 #95423

Finally Tottenham Hotspur has been exposed this season, I believe that I mistaked the fact that they win matches as them being a contender to the English premier league. But I think all that has been exposed.
Chelsea really broke them and today they were lucky to get the lead over wolves but they did not make that count and wolves equalised then later won all in the additional time. I don't think Tottenham Hotspur are a challenger for the prestigious English premier league anymore.

Pablo Sarabia scored a very elegant goal a few minutes after entering the game. It was really one of the best goals of this week. We also have to give a special mention to Mario Lemina. He is very effective when he plays close to the offense. I think defensive roles reduce his performance. Tottenham, who were unbeaten in their first 10 games, lost two games in a row. Tottenham had a psychological advantage but now they are starting to lose it. If Liverpool win tomorrow, they will suddenly drop to 4th place. They are on a very thin line. And things are not going very well for them in the last few weeks.

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November 11, 2023, 05:50:12 PM
 #95424

                        Arsenal Vs Burnley

Arsenal has shown good level of confidence in this game, though theywhere leading 1-0 during the first half. Burnley equalised some minutes into the second half making it 1-1, arsenal replied almost immediately with a goal from saliba, making 2-1.
The game stands at 3-1 as arsenal are gaining more momentum as they are releasing more arsenals on Burnley.
One player that has been part of the arsenal engine room but is a bit silent is Declan Rice, that guy is a working engine.

Although Arsenal managed to win this match, but I was a little disappointed when Burnley managed to score in the second half. Because anyway, I was betting on Arsenal -1.5 and because Burnley managed to make an equalizer to 1-1 then Arsenal needed even greater efforts to be able to win by a difference of 2 goals. But yes, fortunately Arsenal can reply goal quickly and changing the scoreboard to 2-1, until finally Arsenal managed to make another goal to 3-1. But unfortunately, even though Arsenal have led with a score of 3-1 but still, Fabio Vieira got a red card in the 83rd minute and at least, it could make Arsenal threatened again, but hopefully Arsenal will be able to maintain the 3-1 score until the match ends.
Before the red card came in, the deed already has been done, so Arsenal were already balance. Yeah when Burnley scored that goal I really thought, the fight was going to be tougher, but that second goal by arsenal seems to weaken the rekindle spirit Burnley had, because it's was just some few minutes difference.











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November 11, 2023, 05:52:56 PM
 #95425

Arsenal thrilled victory have elevated them to climb forward to second position on the league table, not going back on the streak winning, they're the pre-eminent opposition for Manchester City. Burnley are average team, they're 19th position on the EPL table without having a confident position or possible hope of escaping the relegation zone this season. Gunners are supposed to thrashed the Clarets 4 nil with simple energy but they struggle a little bit, Olesksandr Zinchenko goal finally sealed the victory for Gunners. Mikel Arteta defeats Vincent Kompany at Emirate stadium.
Burnley were difficult, were able to get an equalizer in the game to be 1-1 with Arsenal, but Arsenal did not allow the score to remain the same for too long. Saliba was able to score from a corner kick and then Zichenko with a beautiful technique to make it 3 for Arsenal and take away any hopes that Burnley had. Even after Fabio Veira was sent off for a careless tackle, Arsenal were still able to keep it cool and make sure that Burnley could not score a second. Good three points for coach Arteta and his team. Coach Ten Hag also won against a very stubborn Luton team with a goal from Lindelof and not the regular goal scorers. Garnacho had some good opportunity, wasted it, Hojlund too and Rashford, but all could not score, Manchester United are lucky to have the win, the coach too because talk about sacking him has reduced.

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November 11, 2023, 05:59:14 PM
 #95426

Arsenal had a very good game against Burnley. Wonderful game from the team. I think the 3 points are massive and it’ll shift them closer to their goal. They really played well. The Goals came from different instances. And to think that have missed Odegaard, yet they created enough chances imo and played progressively as effectively as possible. I have noticed that Arsenal have started approaching their games differently this season. I think they’re just trying to be calmer but never losing possession. That fast paced swashbuckling style of last season is gone.
Maybe Arteta is trying to make them less susceptible to transitions. That last last season style puts them more at risk of turn overs and transitions. So it’s a trade off. It’s good that they’ve different ways to their games now and I think it’s a good way to go.
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November 11, 2023, 06:00:09 PM
 #95427

It was as if I knew it that it will end up like this, wolves where very impressive towards the end of the second half. wolves can be too surprising if your not too careful as a big team, I remember the ordeal Manchester city went through in their hands. Tottenham players where becoming too relaxed at the end of the second half, while wolves players where preparing to take them by storm.

This is football, there are no wasted minutes, every minute can make a big difference and take away three points. Of course this will be a very bad lesson for Tottenham. After taking the lead, they thought they would win this match, but Wolves' surprise was unbelievable. In the extra minutes, they managed to recover and turn things around. Wolves' victory ended Tottenham's hopes of overtaking City in first place.

Of course this also benefited Liverpool, having watched Wolves take all three points from Spurs in added time. Soon Spurs will drop to the bottom 4 positions.
Truly extra time need to be considered for players now as it's still the middle of the match because look at what extra time did to Tottenham Hotspur that were just waiting for the final blow to end the match but everything changed against them, the disaster of their previous match against Chelsea is still penetrating in them. I really feel sad for them for this loss, Ange Postecoglou really need to deal with the strategies of how he managed the players, look into it to amend it immediately before they loss the chances they have.

How can Tottenham be waiting for a final whistle, the extra time was for the both clubs to use for their own advantage, Tottenham Hotspur where the favourite to even use that extra time advantage, but they where sleeping on duty and allowed wolves to take advantage of it. Even at that, wolves where becoming too dangerous towards the end, or where Tottenham settling for a draw after taking the lead at first.











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November 11, 2023, 06:06:47 PM
 #95428

-snip-
At this point, Manchester United has scored and I love their creative play today all the passes playing a well-coordinated game are quite impressive, and even the way Rasheford made that pass for V. Lindelof to score is great teamwork and I can see a lot of improvement coming from manchester united game tonight. and from the look of the game, Luton is not that weak that mindset has put a lot of clubs in trouble in the case of underestimating their opponent.  because there's still time don't be surprised to see Luton equalizing is just for Manchester United to fight their defense, because that is where the problem is always coming from, they need to focus on attack and defense then they have nothing to fear.
Luton Town are basically playing well at Old Trafford at the moment, but Manchester United are doing better. I can hope that this is a match that Manchester United will win, but I never know what will happen in the rest of the second half considering Luton Town are also dangerous when they have opportunities. Luton Town have hurt Liverpool in previous games, but I hope they don't do that against Manchester United this time.

Manchester United has a great opportunity to double their lead and lock in a home win, but once again Manchester United's defense must be very focused and must not lose even the slightest concentration. Winning 1-0 is not safe for Manchester United because the probability of a draw is still possible, but to be honest I don't expect it.

@Falconer Manchester United won 1 - 0 against a team that only has won one time this season and this shows how poorly Ten Hag is managing this side. Also it seems that he has an issue with Varane as he was once again left on the bench and with the January transfer window approaching it seems that Varane, Sancho, Van De Beek will be sold as he’s barely using them.
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November 11, 2023, 06:07:53 PM
 #95429

Somehow lately I see Everton managed to improve their performance, maybe this is also a great process that Sean Dyche has done so far for Everton. Because yes, if I remember correctly, that Everton was at the bottom of the standings also this season, but slowly Sean Dyche managed to improve Everton's performance and position in the Premier League standings. Also, from Everton's last three matches in the Premier League, Everton managed to get 2 wins and 1 draw, although Everton played against a team whose position was better in the standings but this still made Everton manage not to lose. Because anyway, in the match that just ended against Crystal Palace, the fact remains that it was not easy for Everton to get points in this match, but the final result Everton managed to get three points and of course this is a very good result for Everton to rise.

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November 11, 2023, 06:09:07 PM
 #95430

Arsenal thrilled victory have elevated them to climb forward to second position on the league table, not going back on the streak winning, they're the pre-eminent opposition for Manchester City. Burnley are average team, they're 19th position on the EPL table without having a confident position or possible hope of escaping the relegation zone this season. Gunners are supposed to thrashed the Clarets 4 nil with simple energy but they struggle a little bit, Olesksandr Zinchenko goal finally sealed the victory for Gunners. Mikel Arteta defeats Vincent Kompany at Emirate stadium.
Burnley were difficult, were able to get an equalizer in the game to be 1-1 with Arsenal, but Arsenal did not allow the score to remain the same for too long. Saliba was able to score from a corner kick and then Zichenko with a beautiful technique to make it 3 for Arsenal and take away any hopes that Burnley had. Even after Fabio Veira was sent off for a careless tackle, Arsenal were still able to keep it cool and make sure that Burnley could not score a second. Good three points for coach Arteta and his team.
Its a good day for Arsenal honestly, I am more than happy that they were able to beat Burnley in their encounter today, watched a small part of the game and I am utterly impressed with the way Arsenal played.
Though when the score was sitting at 1:1, I personally had the fear that we may end up seeing a repeat of of Arsenal losing again to burnley after they lost to Newcastle in their previous encounter, but fortunate enough, they later on proved that they were indeed well prepared for this game.

Right now, Arsenal now have the same point with Manchester city, while Tottenham which used to be the main competitor to Manchester city have dropped behind with 1 point after lossing consecutively to Chelsea and wolves.

This was an interesting match over all, and I hope that Arsenal will put more effort to advance back to the top of the epl table soonest.

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November 11, 2023, 06:09:56 PM
 #95431

                        Arsenal Vs Burnley

Arsenal has shown good level of confidence in this game, though theywhere leading 1-0 during the first half. Burnley equalised some minutes into the second half making it 1-1, arsenal replied almost immediately with a goal from saliba, making 2-1.
The game stands at 3-1 as arsenal are gaining more momentum as they are releasing more arsenals on Burnley.
One player that has been part of the arsenal engine room but is a bit silent is Declan Rice, that guy is a working engine.

Although Arsenal managed to win this match, but I was a little disappointed when Burnley managed to score in the second half. Because anyway, I was betting on Arsenal -1.5 and because Burnley managed to make an equalizer to 1-1 then Arsenal needed even greater efforts to be able to win by a difference of 2 goals. But yes, fortunately Arsenal can reply goal quickly and changing the scoreboard to 2-1, until finally Arsenal managed to make another goal to 3-1. But unfortunately, even though Arsenal have led with a score of 3-1 but still, Fabio Vieira got a red card in the 83rd minute and at least, it could make Arsenal threatened again, but hopefully Arsenal will be able to maintain the 3-1 score until the match ends.
Before the red card came in, the deed already has been done, so Arsenal were already balance. Yeah when Burnley scored that goal I really thought, the fight was going to be tougher, but that second goal by arsenal seems to weaken the rekindle spirit Burnley had, because it's was just some few minutes difference.
I knew Arsenal will win this match so I actually predicted Arsenal for the win, yeah the second goal weaken Burnley but they are the ones that actually weaken themselves, sometimes that's football for me anyone can score at anytime. But Arsenal this time brought out their A game and the defence this time was brilliant. In my opinion Arsenal will go far this season besides Arsenal stands second in premier league table so they should improve more on their goals because this past last week Arsenal went low in the priemer league table

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November 11, 2023, 06:14:17 PM
 #95432

Pablo Sarabia scored a very elegant goal a few minutes after entering the game. It was really one of the best goals of this week. We also have to give a special mention to Mario Lemina. He is very effective when he plays close to the offense. I think defensive roles reduce his performance. Tottenham, who were unbeaten in their first 10 games, lost two games in a row. Tottenham had a psychological advantage but now they are starting to lose it. If Liverpool win tomorrow, they will suddenly drop to 4th place. They are on a very thin line. And things are not going very well for them in the last few weeks.

Pablo Sarabia's goal was spectacular and heartbreaking for Tottenham, there is never a dull moment in the epl, what a crazy game. Wolves destroyed Tottenham psychologically, Tottenham thought wolves were harmless but they didn't know that wolves' bites were poisonous. Tottenham were unable to maintain their lead even though there were only a few minutes remaining in the match, but Wolves' second goal came in extra time. Yes. Liverpool has the opportunity to overtake Tottenham in tomorrow's match.

 
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November 11, 2023, 06:18:21 PM
 #95433

@Falconer Manchester United won 1 - 0 against a team that only has won one time this season and this shows how poorly Ten Hag is managing this side. Also it seems that he has an issue with Varane as he was once again left on the bench and with the January transfer window approaching it seems that Varane, Sancho, Van De Beek will be sold as he’s barely using them.
The English Premier League is absolutely not for every team that feels like to feature, alot of things have changed and its survival for the fittest. Losing today to Manchester United was absolutely a discouraged game for the Clarets. Burnley stats, 1W 1D 10L they're going back to the championship because the evidence set is already clear and there's nothing that can be done except a miracle is triggered. Erik Ten Hag will release most of his players and make signings for new ones, he needs to enchanced his team because time estimated is running out.

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November 11, 2023, 06:18:31 PM
 #95434

Are you expecting Tottenham to get another two red card in their match against wolves? It's not possible because the last one cost them a lot. I don't think Tottenham will sir there and allow such to repeat again because they are already losing their place in the first 4 standing but if they can win their next match against which is feasible, they will come first. If Manchester City lose to Arsenal which is likely not  Kiss, then Tottenham will go back to their place.
That's a dumb prediction, I must say.

Losing 2 players in a competitive league is like got humiliated by the opponent, this will not gonna be happen very soon.

We all know Tottenham should be win against Wolves, but Tottenham is currently lack of player and they don't have many option. I think the match could end in draw considering Wolves recent performance wasn't that bad.

Tottenham lost the match at the absolute end. They were conceited in the 91st and the 97th minute of the match. I thought Tottenham might actually win the match. Even though the Wolves were attacking really well in this match, I thought maybe that was not going to be a big problem for Tottenham. But of course, I was wrong. And I also have to say that it was a good comeback from Wolves after conceding in the fifth minute of the match if I am not wrong. But I have to say this should have been a three-point win for Tottenham.

I honestly never thought that Tottenham would lose again against Wolves after their initial defeat by a significant score in the previous match against Chelsea. Painfully  enough when the score changed drastically at the end of the minute and even in stoppage time, Tottenham's success in getting a goal in the early minutes of the first half match could not guarantee that they would be able to dominate the match with a winning end.

There was absolutely no luck for them in this match, and it seems to be true like some statements from others that indeed the defeat in the previous match against Chelsea was the beginning of Tottenham's downfall, I can already conclude that it is indeed like it is true that this is the beginning of the downfall of the team that initially looked like very promising by being at the top of the standings haha. I think the final result  of this match was too painful for Tottenham.

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November 11, 2023, 06:30:59 PM
 #95435

This second half, Tottenham haven't been too dominating, though they're are missing a lot of chances as well, a draw will be justifiable for me given their outstanding performance this second half, as it stands now is 1-1.
Wolves 2 - Tottenham 1

This is a scoreline that many would expect to go in favor of Tottenham Hotspur, like they would have come out stronger after losing to Chelsea but who knows, the Blues left a mark on Spurs and now they have 2 losses in two games.  I feel this isn't going to end well for Spurs unless they find a way to get a win if not, they might just be like Brighton after losing to Chelsea.
Tottenham topping the Premier League table is no more again. For them to lose their match to Wolves shows that they are becoming weak at their defense line due to the two red cards that were given to their defenders when they played against Chelsea.

If Wolves who were in the 16th position last week(before their todays win that brought them to the 11th position) can win against Tottenham by 2-1, how good will they perform when they play against Aston Villa in their next match?

Having said that, Tottenham should work on their defense line since their two defenders who were given red cards won't still be featured in the Aston Villa match.

 
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November 11, 2023, 06:31:15 PM
 #95436

Manchester United defending was great today, they should have doubled the goal to ease pressure from Luton Town but Marcus Rashford couldn't seize a good chance created by Anthony.
Yes it's true, they played better today from their back line as well as their front line even though they only won narrowly, but at least Manchester United have managed to get the full three points today, as we know they don't seem to be successful in the UCL and it looks like they are Ten Hag should focus more on his team, Manchester United, on the EPL, a narrow win against Luton today was more than enough even though there were several chances, it doesn't matter as long as Manchester United stay on their winning path.

Manchester United's next match will face Everton and of course they must be able to get full points again to be able to put their position in a better position in the current standings, although it will certainly be difficult to play at Everton home ground and moreover, Everton is not a club that can be underestimated. but if Ten Hag wants good results he must emphasize his players to continue playing as well as possible and carry out the tactical strategies that will be implemented against Everton later.  Grin

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November 11, 2023, 06:35:06 PM
 #95437

                        Arsenal Vs Burnley

Arsenal has shown good level of confidence in this game, though theywhere leading 1-0 during the first half. Burnley equalised some minutes into the second half making it 1-1, arsenal replied almost immediately with a goal from saliba, making 2-1.
The game stands at 3-1 as arsenal are gaining more momentum as they are releasing more arsenals on Burnley.
One player that has been part of the arsenal engine room but is a bit silent is Declan Rice, that guy is a working engine.

To be honest, I've been a little doubtful about Arsenal lately. especially if they fall behind first. since falling to Newcastle, even though his goal was controversial. plus, being knocked out in the EFL by West Ham. there is a little worry for me, as a fan of the Gunners. Likewise in this match, initially I was optimistic that they would get full points and score lots of goals. In the first half, Trossard put Arsenal ahead first. Entering the second half, the position was 1-1.
In the end Arsenal were able to take the lead again even though the goal came from a defender, as did the third goal. However, I am happy that Arsenal is back on track.

In this match, I don't know why Arteta took Harvertz off in the 59th minute. not as usual, even though Harvertz played quite well. Referring to the match statistics, it is clear that these two teams have a clear gap. both tactically and technically. As a result, Arsenal is now in 2nd place, having the same points as Man City. The difference is, City has not played their 12th matchday match. Tomorrow, they will visit Chelsea headquarters. Hopefully, this match will present something interesting.

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November 11, 2023, 06:41:12 PM
 #95438

This second half, Tottenham haven't been too dominating, though they're are missing a lot of chances as well, a draw will be justifiable for me given their outstanding performance this second half, as it stands now is 1-1.
Wolves 2 - Tottenham 1

This is a scoreline that many would expect to go in favor of Tottenham Hotspur, like they would have come out stronger after losing to Chelsea but who knows, the Blues left a mark on Spurs and now they have 2 losses in two games.  I feel this isn't going to end well for Spurs unless they find a way to get a win if not, they might just be like Brighton after losing to Chelsea.
Tottenham topping the Premier League table is no more again. For them to lose their match to Wolves shows that they are becoming weak at their defense line due to the two red cards that were given to their defenders when they played against Chelsea.

If Wolves who were in the 16th position last week(before their todays win that brought them to the 11th position) can win against Tottenham by 2-1, how good will they perform when they play against Aston Villa in their next match?

Having said that, Tottenham should work on their defense line since their two defenders who were given red cards won't still be featured in the Aston Villa match.

You know for a second, I thought Tottenham will stand the test of time, at least topping the league for the next 8 weeks. But then consistency is what excellence is all about and Manchester city has shown that. Arsenal are struggling to come up with something good, but for now I give it to Manchester city, they've been topnotch in their consistency.











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November 11, 2023, 06:51:39 PM
 #95439

Manchester United defending was great today, they should have doubled the goal to ease pressure from Luton Town but Marcus Rashford couldn't seize a good chance created by Anthony.
Manchester United's next match will face Everton and of course they must be able to get full points again to be able to put their position in a better position in the current standings, although it will certainly be difficult to play at Everton home ground and moreover, Everton is not a club that can be underestimated. but if Ten Hag wants good results he must emphasize his players to continue playing as well as possible and carry out the tactical strategies that will be implemented against Everton later.  Grin
You are very right about Everton not being a team to be underestimated, In  Everton encounter with crystal palace today, Everton managed to beat crystal palace by 3 goals to 2, which is a narrow win for them, but what matters is they the won at the end of the match, and it wil be worthy to note that crystal palace is on 12th position on the epl table while Everton is sitting in the 14th position.

Manchester united must work very hard if they must have a chance at beating Everton, which I personally still believe may be unlikely for them, Manchester united narrowly beating Luton town today is nothing for them to be proud of, Infact, it would have been very shameful for them if the outcome of the game was the other way round, Luton town currently sitting in the 18th position in the epl table shows that they are one of the most weakness team/club, and it is expected of Manchester united to win in this their encounter today.

Everton may likely beat Manchester united if Manchester united approach everton with the same strategy and structure they appeared an played against Luton town with.
But then again, this is just my prediction, let's see how things play out when the d-day comes.

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November 11, 2023, 06:52:25 PM
 #95440

This is the first defeat of the season for Tottenham, so I think this game will not affect their morale and their game in general, everyone has misfires and it is unrealistically difficult to go the whole season without defeats. Chelsea in turn outdid themselves, it was a willful victory, but whether it will continue is far from certain. Now they have two tough matches ahead of them and if they win or draw, then we can say that Chelsea are on the mend. Although I still don't believe that they can get back to their previous level

I agree with you that Chelsea's last win cannot be used as a benchmark because they are in a better position I mean playing against 9 players if that is a normal match maybe the results will be different, as you said if Chelsea are able to go through the next 2-4 games without defeat, it can be said Chelsea in a positive trend. I personally doubt Chelsea can get 4 points in the next 4 matches unless they get the same luck as against Tottenham, but we know that luck does not come at all times and can't always hope for that situation.

This season the fight for European League tickets seems more interesting than the Champions League ticket, we already know which teams will secure UCL tickets but for the European League Premier League teams have many competitors including Manchester United, Chelsea and Newcastle there is also Aston Villa who is still consistent which can sometimes surprise the opponent.

Well so far I think the tough matches for them are against Manchester City and Newcastle. The others are more or less within their grasp. They have a match against MU in their next matches, but as we know MU are not in the best condition lately, so Chelsea have a good chance there.
Another interesting thing is that Tottenham lost their match and got their second defeat of the season, I wonder what will happen to them next, a temporary misfire or they are weakened after all

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