A Resource Based Economy

[ElectricMucus]

Imagine a world where both a Binding Contract and Artificial Intelligence are considered the product of fanatic nutjobs imagination as a general consensus in society.

The world would be so much better.  

Yup, a world where you didn't have to do what you agreed to, ever. Sounds like Paradise.

I'm glad you agree.  

I didn't say for who...

I'm fine with that. Poetic justice nothing more.

[1713988625]

1713988625

[johnyj]

In a society that everything is free? All the resource have zero cost so the product also cost nothing, then everyone would like to have their super house in the best location near water with a big yacht...

The physical places on earth are so limited, so there should be a mechanism to allocate  limited physical resources to each person, queue based?

I think current model of making money through work and market based price setting basically solved this allocation problem, the more scarce the resouce, the higher price it will get. The biggest problem with this model is that there are lots of middle man in this process and in the end those who working hardest get poorly rewarded

[myrkul]

Imagine a world where both a Binding Contract and Artificial Intelligence are considered the product of fanatic nutjobs imagination as a general consensus in society.

The world would be so much better.  

Yup, a world where you didn't have to do what you agreed to, ever. Sounds like Paradise.

I'm glad you agree.  

I didn't say for who...

I'm fine with that.

Then I can safely label you "Evil." Buh-bye now, crazy evil person.

[ElectricMucus]

I didn't say for who...

I'm fine with that.

Then I can safely label you "Evil." Buh-bye now, crazy evil person.

That is also poethic justice, you see for every person who would be left for dead in a Libertarian wonderland there is one satoshi illegally possessed by pirate. (Purposefully exaggerated, your mileage may vary)

[DoomDumas]

I disagree on this one, money is'nt needed at all.. it was in the past, for sure, but now that humans have acheive such a high level of technology and science, this is no more true..  The science and tech level seen today is new to humanity and opens the doors for many opportunities !

Can anyone point me of an example when "all ressources declared common for all humanity" has been tried before ?

You totally fail to understand that this is not a technological dilemma, it is a social one.
How the hell will you get the world to share everything?
As i said earlier, go ask Putin if you can have his gass.
Otherwise stop with the fantasies already.

This is why a shift in personal value is needed, planet-wide..  This change in values must begins with education.  With good, proper and sane education, everyone can understand the principles..  This is one planet, we are one speicies, and must change our personal value to be able to acheive changes that will allow humanity to survive the long run !

Must be done before it's too late.. IMO, it's too late for the majority of 30 yo and older, we must educate the young one, those still have opened mind.  That's why I dont lose too much time arguing, I prefer to do my research and trt my best at educating young minds that have'nt been too much corrupted yet !

As we get older, we tend to keep our mental assiciation, and as older we get, it's harder to break those "forged" association in our mind, it take much more time, effort as we get older.  Some have been able to still open-minded while aging, but most are kept prisonner of their inculcate value set, puched by the consumersism society !

Hope it's not too late, Ill try to keep my focus on my kids and youngster in schools !

I'm following Jim Phillips from TZM Education, he got the point and has been able to dedicate most of his life to this, Thanks to him, lots of good stuff came from him !

[DoomDumas]

The GOE? yeah, that's plants, too.

You wrote:  «because it is continually replenished by plants».  So you were talking about present plants.  I stressed out that current levels of oxygen are mainly due to prehistorical heritage of the plants activity. If all plants were to disappear, the oxygen levels would probably not drop to zero in a few days (yes, I'm exaggerating here)

"no cost"... Right up until you get out to Ceres and discover that all the water ice has been mined for fuel for your army of robots, and now you're stuck with no gas, nothing to drink, and no air.

Lol.  I'm not on Ceres myself.  I'm not even in space.  I stay on earth and I let my robots do all the work.


I'd like to ask you the question again:  do you seriously worry about other people breathing your oxygen?  Are you really going to insist on saying that air is a scarce commodity?

If you don't worry about air then you live in luxury.

OMG - the point is not about breathing "other's air"  it's all about stop polluting it.

[DoomDumas]

Our sick consumer culture was strategically created with an assortment of psychological attacks upon the populace. We can use education and awareness to expose these manipulations and inform people that there is a better way to live together for the benefit of everyone.

You know what the truly sad thing about you guys is?

How much you get almost right.

Adding techno- to a political philosophy doesn't make it work better. If anything, the wheels come off faster. Communism is no different.

Just inform yourself about Edward Bernays

Begin here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays

and look for some video/documentary/text/lecture
4 great documentary has been made about the man by the BBC !

[DoomDumas]

Many people like to pigeon-hole the Zeitgeisters as communists... I think that might be adding a political meaning to the movement that really probably was not originally intended.  I thought the ZG and the Venus Project were supposedly apolitical; perhaps I've been mis- or under- informed.
But, from what I gather about these people:  They are anti-CONSUMERISM.  So, what's the opposite of consuming?  Producing.  So, are they producers?  Maybe wanna-be producers?
I've read elsewhere on this forum (and other places) that our current economic situation has something to do with the balance between consuming and producing tipping too heavily toward consuming.  Anyway, I don't think the issue needs any extra politification.  Just my 0.02 BTC.

By a-political they just mean they are the other side of the coin.
They would have to excert extreme political power to make their ideas reality.

No, what is needed is just mass-education based on plain-science, evidence, and what's actually concidered true !

The scientific method, there is no almost, maybe, but.. there is just plain-simple-fact

[DoomDumas]

Many people like to pigeon-hole the Zeitgeisters as communists... I think that might be adding a political meaning to the movement that really probably was not originally intended.  I thought the ZG and the Venus Project were supposedly apolitical; perhaps I've been mis- or under- informed.
But, from what I gather about these people:  They are anti-CONSUMERISM.  So, what's the opposite of consuming?  Producing.  So, are they producers?  Maybe wanna-be producers?
I've read elsewhere on this forum (and other places) that our current economic situation has something to do with the balance between consuming and producing tipping too heavily toward consuming.  Anyway, I don't think the issue needs any extra politification.  Just my 0.02 BTC.

By a-political they just mean they are the other side of the coin.
They would have to excert extreme political power to make their ideas reality.

If their ideas boil down to producerism (as opposed to consumerism), I can see that manifesting worldwide without any political influence at all... Aside from possibly comic relief
Hoo boy, that election happened, and people sure were acting more foolish than usual that day.

They cannot manifest without profoundly affecting current politics.
Therefore their ideas are very political in nature whether they realise it or not.

Oh, I see, you are more enlighten than the hundreds of thousand folks in ZM ?

[DoomDumas]

the thing it's supposed to be for) dress-up extravaganza that it is -- And then it might actually become (or be replaced [likely with "AI"] with) a system of distributing resources that is hopefully more efficient than the current abysmal policy-making system we have now.

BTW there is something I don't get in this whole RBE/Zeitgeist/Venus thing.  In a post-scarcity economy, why would you need a political system to distribute resources??  Isn't that contradictory?  People (sometimes) need to ration things precisely when they are scarce.  If there is no scarcity, why don't you just let people build whatever they need when they need it?

Because if i have unlimited energy i could make a gun to blow off my neighbors head because he looked at me in a funy way and i was like realy realy bored...
In other words, the general population is genetically not well equipped to deal with unlimited energy.
There is a shitload of psychological problems with endless resources. We are all pre-programmed for scarcity. Greed is nothing more than a survival mechanism for low-resource environments.
We have a lot more resources now and yet we fail at not being greedy. We have come as far as making most of our greed virtual so we don't actually rip food from other peoples hands, most of the time.
But thinking that the world population will just ignore their animal drives to get something like a resource based economy going is ludicrous.
You will not be able to get there (and i also said this before) without genetically modifying the entire human species to not be so damn human anymore.

Im the product of my environnement, not my genes....  Ok, genes can gives me some predisposition, but im most of all the product of my environnement !

[DoomDumas]

How to start a Zeitgeist movement:
Step one: create complex, self replicating robots that can make anything, for free.
Step two: figure out how to make everything, from food to shelter to clothing to electronics, from only sea water and air, using a process that creates zero pollution


...... 

Please, educate yourself

[DoomDumas]

How to get from NOW to a Ressource Based Economy :

Trought few generation of good, sane, science-based Education !

I dont think we will see it in our live, but maybe todays baby or their babys !

[myrkul]

Just inform yourself about Edward Bernays

Begin here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays

I've actually read Propaganda. Can you say the same?

I say again: Communism doesn't work, techno-communism will not work either, and as a bonus, when it collapses, the proles won't know how to farm. So, congratulations, you've perfected Communism, it now has a 100% kill rate.

[Crypt_Current]

Just inform yourself about Edward Bernays

Begin here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays

I've actually read Propaganda. Can you say the same?

I say again: Communism doesn't work, techno-communism will not work either, and as a bonus, when it collapses, the proles won't know how to farm. So, congratulations, you've perfected Communism, it now has a 100% kill rate.

The way I understand the ZG movement (fairly sure I understand it correctly), it is nothing like communism.  It's not like any -ism at all.  As that nice foreign outdoorsman above said:  It's all about proper education.

[Crypt_Current]

But thinking that the world population will just ignore their animal drives to get something like a resource based economy going is ludicrous.
You will not be able to get there (and i also said this before) without genetically modifying the entire human species to not be so damn human anymore.

Precisely.  Humans are obsolete.  Thanks for your clarifications.

That is not for humans to decide, i'm afraid...
But in case of RBE i can say that the whole idea does not fit humanity well.

Just curious as to how you came across that bolded tidbit of alleged knowledge there?

[Crypt_Current]

Imagine a world where both a Binding Contract and Artificial Intelligence are considered the product of fanatic nutjobs imagination as a general consensus in society.

The world would be so much better. 

Electricity is arguably a product of "fanatic nutjobs imagination" ...  If you have any problems with it, like the nice man from the electric monopoly company said when he came to turn my power off one time,
"There are other alternatives"

...
I looked at him like  and flipped him off as hard as I could.

[myrkul]

I say again: Communism doesn't work, techno-communism will not work either, and as a bonus, when it collapses, the proles won't know how to farm. So, congratulations, you've perfected Communism, it now has a 100% kill rate.

The way I understand the ZG movement (fairly sure I understand it correctly), it is nothing like communism.  It's not like any -ism at all.  As that nice foreign outdoorsman above said:  It's all about proper education.

Everything is held in common, yes? That's Communism.
Run by computer/robots, yes? That's the techno- part.
It's also the part where when the system inevitably fails, the proles (that's commie for peasant) don't know how to farm, since the robots did that for 'em.

[Crypt_Current]

I say again: Communism doesn't work, techno-communism will not work either, and as a bonus, when it collapses, the proles won't know how to farm. So, congratulations, you've perfected Communism, it now has a 100% kill rate.

The way I understand the ZG movement (fairly sure I understand it correctly), it is nothing like communism.  It's not like any -ism at all.  As that nice foreign outdoorsman above said:  It's all about proper education.

Everything is held in common, yes? That's Communism.
Run by computer/robots, yes? That's the techno- part.
It's also the part where when the system inevitably fails, the proles (that's commie for peasant) don't know how to farm, since the robots did that for 'em.

Naaahhhh; You're working with a VERY generic umbrella of a definition for communism there.  The Venus Project is about local grassroots communities... In actual instantiation, I imagine it to look and feel like one of those restaurants (such as Cafe 180 in Denver) where people volunteer to cook and clean and maintain and manage business matters and everything else, and then they all eat meals together that they made with each other and have good conversation to boot, with the added bonus of customers coming in and paying donations for the gourmet-quality cuisine -- all of that times 1000000, there's your futuristic city-state, fully self contained cell, but in full communication with other cells such as itself, networked like neurons.
Someone will be there to manage the robots and someone will ALSO be there to teach farming if it ever comes down to that -- Because engineers and farmers that love engineering and farming WANT to do engineering and farming.  And if they can do what they love while enjoying higher quality and quantity of fruits (and other foods [read: pleasurable aspects of life; fruits of labor [robot slave labor, perhaps; have you got a moral problem with robots being slaves?  That could seriously be an issue with this... But not likely.  The robots will love us because we will appreciate our creations because we love the work we do to create them]]), don't you think they eventually decide to move "where the money is"?
In this case, "money" meaning general ability to live a higher quality life.

[Crypt_Current]

I say again: Communism doesn't work, techno-communism will not work either, and as a bonus, when it collapses, the proles won't know how to farm. So, congratulations, you've perfected Communism, it now has a 100% kill rate.

The way I understand the ZG movement (fairly sure I understand it correctly), it is nothing like communism.  It's not like any -ism at all.  As that nice foreign outdoorsman above said:  It's all about proper education.

Everything is held in common, yes? That's Communism.
Run by computer/robots, yes? That's the techno- part.
It's also the part where when the system inevitably fails, the proles (that's commie for peasant) don't know how to farm, since the robots did that for 'em.

Naaahhhh; You're working with a VERY generic umbrella of a definition for communism there.  The Venus Project is about local grassroots communities... In actual instantiation, I imagine it to look and feel like one of those restaurants (such as Cafe 180 in Denver) where people volunteer to cook and clean and maintain and manage business matters and everything else, and then they all eat meals together that they made with each other and have good conversation to boot, with the added bonus of customers coming in and paying donations for the gourmet-quality cuisine -- all of that times 1000000, there's your futuristic city-state, fully self contained cell, but in full communication with other cells such as itself, networked like neurons.
Someone will be there to manage the robots and someone will ALSO be there to teach farming if it ever comes down to that -- Because engineers and farmers that love engineering and farming WANT to do engineering and farming.  And if they can do what they love while enjoying higher quality and quantity of fruits (and other foods [read: pleasurable aspects of life; fruits of labor [robot slave labor, perhaps; have you got a moral problem with robots being slaves?  That could seriously be an issue with this... But not likely.  The robots will love us because we will appreciate our creations because we love the work we do to create them]]), don't you think they eventually decide to move "where the money is"?
In this case, "money" meaning general ability to live a higher quality life.

Forgot to add my main point:  I can think of the Venus Project as a sort of decentralized communism (ugh i hate using that word now, thank you myrkul).  So that problem is solved just like Bitcoin and decentralized cryptocurrency is solving these money issues.  Look around you dude, everything is decentralized these days; "we have the technology - the time is NOW - ... to blow up the moon"

[memvola]

This is why a shift in personal value is needed, planet-wide..  This change in values must begins with education.  With good, proper and sane education, everyone can understand the principles..  This is one planet, we are one speicies, and must change our personal value to be able to acheive changes that will allow humanity to survive the long run !

Must be done before it's too late..

The single most exploited rhetoric which led to the most horrific nightmares of human history. Add "one nation" to it to make the flavor stronger.

As long as you define what "sane" and "good" is, I'm fine with it. Please, take my kids as well.

You have evidently left your skepticism behind, or you were never introduced to it. I'm assuming you will tend to use the word "science" whenever you assume you are not talking to someone with proper "authority". Ah right, here it comes...

That's why I dont lose too much time arguing, I prefer to do my research and trt my best at educating young minds that have'nt been too much corrupted yet !

Tell me what you are researching exactly...

No, what is needed is just mass-education based on plain-science, evidence, and what's actually concidered true !

The scientific method, there is no almost, maybe, but.. there is just plain-simple-fact

Sooo... Please show me the scientific evidence behind your assertions. Or any assertion by TZM for that matter. And what will you mass-educate? What is considered true, by whom?

What is the scientific method by the way? Which school of thought are you talking about? Is it well-defined? Where does it come from? Can you scientifically prove the scientific method?

If you did really want to describe it thoroughly, you would find out that you actually don't know what you mean by "the scientific method". There is science, which is the honest pursuit of truth. And then there is academia, and the heuristics they use. The method itself is pretty much arbitrary actually, and dependent on the specific branch of science and school of thought.

And, dude, with scientific method, everything is "almost", "maybe" and "but". It's the one thing that separates science from religion. "Plain simple facts" is the defining characteristic of dogma. Go read about philosophy of science. While at it, read Bakunin as well, as a few hundred years old criticism of the movements that are "based on science" (he actually directed it towards Marxists, but will apply to TZM just fine, you'll see.)

Oh, I see, you are more enlighten than the hundreds of thousand folks in ZM ?

What an enlightened comment...