Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress]

[BADecker]

I concede, you got me, you're absolutely correct! I said that Ukraine did it, but Ukraine is a country and as such technically unable to perform terrorism, which only humans are capable of doing.

You seem to be enormously agitated by this pipeline that was made useless by your glorious leader long before it was damaged. What happened to the whole "let Europe freeze" strategy?

Anyways, even if "Ukraine" had done it, how the fuck would it be terrorism if they're at war with Putinstan... are we still pretending that it's just a "special operation" and it's super unfair for the special operators to suffer any consequences?

That is funny.The terrorists are yelling,look out,terrorist attacks against our country.As Zelensky said,the war will come to Russia,especially to those parts supporting the unprovoked illegal war at the maximum and it has started yesterday with a boom in that optical factory,of course the Russians said it was the boiler room taking fire but Ukraine presidential advisor said from the images and videos shown it does not look like it was the pyrotechnics who got fire claiming may be some other reason.It is good for the Russians to feel the same pain Ukrainians have so maybe they react and call to the reason to act upon and stop Putler.

Well, what can anybody expect? When you poke your sharp, little stick at Big Bear Russia, you're going to get swatted.

Now, think about this one thing. As Ukraine killed maybe more than 1400 Russians and Ukrainians since 2014 before Russia retaliated...
And then Ukraine lost a whole bunch of land to the Russians for it...
What does anybody think is going to happen to the tiny Ukraine that is left if they continue trying to turn this thing into a all out war?

Russia might not take all of Ukraine, but there won't be any Ukraine left at all.

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[DaRude]

I concede, you got me, you're absolutely correct! I said that Ukraine did it, but Ukraine is a country and as such technically unable to perform terrorism, which only humans are capable of doing.

You seem to be enormously agitated by this pipeline that was made useless by your glorious leader long before it was damaged. What happened to the whole "let Europe freeze" strategy?

Anyways, even if "Ukraine" had done it, how the fuck would it be terrorism if they're at war with Putinstan... are we still pretending that it's just a "special operation" and it's super unfair for the special operators to suffer any consequences?

I appreciate the beginning of the transition from the silly denial stage into acceptance stage. But i'm truly stumbled by your question, pretense that Ukraine can set off explosions anywhere in the world is truly preposterous. Wait, perhaps you just believe that Ukraine is in war with Denmark or Sweden too? Perhaps you should ask paxmao why he feels that this is an act of war against those countries? Or you should ask US or Western allies why they view it as a sabotage on critical infrastructure? I'm not sure how else I can explain that Ukraine cannot blow up civilian infrastructures inside other countries Or are you still just trying to involve as many countries into this as you can to get the WW3 going by setting the precedent for Russia to blow up some pipeline/civ. infrastructure in another country too?

It appears that Netherlands intelligence was (the small EU country) that tipped everyone off about the sabotage, and the ones that were wondering if they got this info how others could not have known about this.

Dutch intelligence warned CIA about alleged Ukrainian plot to attack Nord Stream pipelines, Netherlands’ public broadcaster reports
...
Dutch military intelligence warned the American intelligence service, CIA, last year about an alleged Ukrainian plan to blow up the Nord Stream pipelines three months before they were hit
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The United States received intelligence from a European ally last year that the Ukrainian military was planning an attack on the Nord Stream natural gas pipelines, CNN reported last week based on information from three US officials.
The attack on the pipelines last September has been condemned by US officials and Western allies alike as a sabotage on critical infrastructure.
...
Netherlands’s public broadcaster in its report said that the Dutch military intelligence service, MIVD, was able at an early stage to gather detailed information about alleged Ukrainian plot to blow up the pipelines.
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The pipelines were controversial before the war in Ukraine began, stoking concerns about European dependence on Russian gas.

Why do you think Dutch intelligence is releasing this? Is Netherlands pro Putin now too in your head?

...

...

Finally we have something to discuss, it takes you a while to get of the irate responses and actually say something even if you have just one source and even if it is behind a paywall.

So, you base you accusation to the Ukrainian government of blowing up the NS because:

- A small vessel was around (definetly not at "the scene" which is 80 m below the water).
- That small vessel was rented by an Ukrainian company and sailed / operated from Poland.
- The vessel was in the area for 12 hours.
- Intelligence sources (take with plenty of salt) say that the US told Ukraine not to blow it up.

Anything else? Because that is not enough.
...

You can pretend that you're an investigative journalist all you want, but unlike your claims made without any citations, these are not my accusations, you're not arguing with me but with Washington Post, WSJ, Spigel, Guardian, New York Times, CNN etc etc etc...(which are really not known to sympathize with Russia, in fact i don't know what major publication did NOT pick up on this story). So instead of posting your opinions on anonymous forum i suggest you write a strongly worded letter to all these newspapers and let them know how they're all wrong and that they should retract their story, because paxmao just refuses to believe it, and together with 1miau have another theory of how it all went down with Putin on the narwhal. Post a link and I'll gladly read it if you'll get them to published it. I hate to be the one breaking it to you this way, but without citing more credible sources, no one really cares if an anonymous user is not convinced that the world is spherical.

Again, making things up - I did not ever say I am a journalist.

I do not make any claim, I clearly stated that I am expressing my view based on my reasoning on who has to gain from the event. I am not blind and I understand that there are other reasons why this could have been done by others. The Nordstream by-passed Ukraine, that is there for everyone to see.

However you are effectively making a claim stating that there is "irrefutable proof" - that is not an view or an opinion, is an statement of facts -  thus you do have to provide such evidence. But you cannot, because whether you like it or not secret ops are mostly secret unless Snowden shows himself around.

I concede, you got me, you're absolutely correct! I said that Ukraine did it, but Ukraine is a country and as such technically unable to perform terrorism, which only humans are capable of doing.

I have no interest whatsoever in "getting you", I do have interest in providing the right information (better, information that is right). You did not just say "Ukraine did it" (which I freely translate for the Ukrainian Government organised it), you said there was irrefutable proof of it. You showed some articles that mention very loose connections and mostly suspicions (even the titles of some say "suspicion").

Bottom line, there is no proof. My personal view - Russia most likely did it. My guess is that Ukraine would not damage infrastructure that mostly benefits Germany - an ally - and could stop EU aid if detected. Yes, I will write it again, the NS benefited mostly Germany.

I am still waiting for you to provide any "right information (better, information that is right)" from you outside of what you've seen in your dreams last night. What would it take for you to change your mind on this, and admit UA involvement? Would you concede once Germany issues arrest warrants for those Ukrainians involved? But what am i saying, after all if flat earthers can deny that the earth is a sphere and no evidence is good enough for them, why shouldn't you be able to deny Ukraine involvement in Nord Stream sabotage?

[1miau]

Seriously i have provided citations from major international publications with quotes of their sources in intelligence agencies all over the world, and best you could come up with is a quote from a German public-service television broadcaster with 16% reach in Germany citing an "expert in maritime security"?

You have not provided a single citation, where officials say that they have proof, that Ukraine is behind it. Because there is no proof that Ukraine is behind it. All, you have presented are guesses, "could be", "might be", "looks like" or similar.  
You are just hiding behind your weak "Ukrainian boat" story...
Keep insisting on it to defend your beloved war criminal in the Kremlin.

Pretty weak from the start but if your whole hypothesis is resting on this, lets take a look.

That's once again a lie from you because I've never said this. Stop making up things but lying seems to be your hobby...  

In order to blow up the pipelines, investigators estimate that around 500 kilograms of TNT equivalent would be needed per explosion. Exactly how much was used cannot be said because it is unclear which explosive was used was used.

Published 16 March 2023 with "enormous doubts about the one-ship theory" of your expert mostly resting on the half a ton of TNT equivalent. And just two month later on 26 May 2023 this was published, completely destroying your little theory.

According to SPIEGEL information, the metadata of an e-mail that was sent when the Andromeda 5+ sailing yacht allegedly used to transport the explosives was rented leads to Ukraine.
…
There is also repeated talk of a so-called "false flag" operation by Russia. Among those familiar with the process, this is considered extremely unlikely. Behind the scenes, it was even said early on that Moscow had no real motive for the crime.
…
In the cabin of the "Andromeda" the remains of an explosive suitable for use under water were found over a large area. It is said to be octogen, an explosive that is widespread in both the West and the former Eastern bloc. Investigators have described the explosive power of the explosive charges used as equivalent to 500 kilograms of TNT.
…
Oktogen is much lighter than TNT, could be transported by a relatively small boat, and could have been taken to the bottom of the Baltic Sea by experienced combat divers. The often-put-up thesis that the assassins could only have brought the explosives to the site of the attack because of its weight with a larger ship and possibly a mini-submarine is no longer applicable Intelligence services suspect Ukrainian perpetrators

Just because a "light explosive" is suspected to be used, it doesn't mean, it has been used.
In case of a Russian false flag operation, it would have been a very easy thing from Russia to leave these traces intentionally on that rented "Ukrainian boat" to create this story and afterwards cry "Ukraine is evil and behind it". And loyal Putin serfs, like you are one, are doing the rest to push this story again and again.  

It's not surprising that Putin's war crimes apologists in the West have selected the "Ukrainian boat" theory because it's such a nebulous story and perfectly suited for Putler's approach to sow discord among Ukraine's allies, why not providing any valid proof. It's a story that nebulous that Putin's loyal servs can accuse Ukraine of anything.
You are a perfect tool for Putin to commit more war crimes in Ukraine and it's really surpsrising how vehemently you are trying to accuse Ukraine without having any solid proof.
Everyday a new post, today 2 new posts, so we are at post number 9 defending Putler.  

Do you do any research at all before posting something? Or you just enjoy being embarrassed? Are you saying SPIEGEL is Russian propaganda now? Do you think they're lying to you? Did you contact them explaining how you disagreed with their theory and told them what you thought really happened? Did they laugh?

In opposite to you, I'm doing research and also thinking about it if it's making sense or not.
You are obviously lacking any critical thinking skills or why are you pushing this weak story now in over half a dozen posts, again and again? Putin really likes to have such loyal serfs like you because without you, he would be able to kill much less Ukrainians. People like you are the problem why Putin feels emboldened to invade Ukraine because people like you would keep purchasing cheap gas, funding Putins aggression and let him take whole Ukraine.
Shame, shame...


And you should read the forum rules and avoid pyramid quotes as well...  
But reading is not your strength, obviously...

Bottom line, there is no proof. My personal view - Russia most likely did it. My guess is that Ukraine would not damage infrastructure that mostly benefits Germany - an ally - and could stop EU aid if detected. Yes, I will write it again, the NS benefited mostly Germany.

It not even benefitted Germany anymore. When the pipelines were blown up, Germany had decided to abandon Russian gas, so all the pipelines would have been unseless anyways even if they'd still exist.
Also important to note, that 2 pipelines of NS1 were blown up but only 1 pipeline of NS2. 1 pipeline from NS2 is still intact.
And - no surprise - shortly after the explosions, Putin suggested to open the remaining NS2 pipeline.

Putin offers Europe gas through Nord Stream 2 - DW - 10/12/2022

The Russian leader offered to resume gas supplies through parts of the pipelines that weren't damaged by explosions last month.

Not suspicious, that one pipeline is still intact and Putin wants to start his NS2 project to keep Germany dependent and fund his russian war machine - not suspicious at all.

[paxmao]

...

Bottom line, there is no proof. My personal view - Russia most likely did it. My guess is that Ukraine would not damage infrastructure that mostly benefits Germany - an ally - and could stop EU aid if detected. Yes, I will write it again, the NS benefited mostly Germany.

It not even benefitted Germany anymore. When the pipelines were blown up, Germany had decided to abandon Russian gas, so all the pipelines would have been unseless anyways even if they'd still exist.
Also important to note, that 2 pipelines of NS1 were blown up but only 1 pipeline of NS2. 1 pipeline from NS2 is still intact.
And - no surprise - shortly after the explosions, Putin suggested to open the remaining NS2 pipeline.

Putin offers Europe gas through Nord Stream 2 - DW - 10/12/2022

The Russian leader offered to resume gas supplies through parts of the pipelines that weren't damaged by explosions last month.

Not suspicious, that one pipeline is still intact and Putin wants to start his NS2 project to keep Germany dependent and fund his russian war machine - not suspicious at all.

A few interesting points here:

- Germany decided not to use Russian gas before the war? I do not think so, in fact they have lobbied in the EU to decide that gas "is green".
- Germany would be fine with returning to use RF gas. I know, it seems impossible today, but I give 1 year after a permanent cease fire to go back to cheap energy.
- Germany does not depend on the Russian gas, in the same sense that I do not depend on the cheapest restaurant around to eat. It is just the cheapest, as long as they do not go on an invading spree.

And some recent news, difficult to ignore even for the Muscovites who live immersed in the official juice of comfort, unconfirmed but seems that there have been explosions in at least one airport in Moscow.

https://english.alarabiya.net/News/world/2023/08/10/Russia-s-emergency-service-reports-fire-near-airport-RIA

💥 Tonight, a massive explosion in Domodedovo in Moscow, where a Ukrainian drone was shot down by Russian air defense the previous night. Eyewitnesses reported active air defense again, so quite likely a successful drone strike.

[1miau]

...

Bottom line, there is no proof. My personal view - Russia most likely did it. My guess is that Ukraine would not damage infrastructure that mostly benefits Germany - an ally - and could stop EU aid if detected. Yes, I will write it again, the NS benefited mostly Germany.

It not even benefitted Germany anymore. When the pipelines were blown up, Germany had decided to abandon Russian gas, so all the pipelines would have been unseless anyways even if they'd still exist.
Also important to note, that 2 pipelines of NS1 were blown up but only 1 pipeline of NS2. 1 pipeline from NS2 is still intact.
And - no surprise - shortly after the explosions, Putin suggested to open the remaining NS2 pipeline.

Putin offers Europe gas through Nord Stream 2 - DW - 10/12/2022

The Russian leader offered to resume gas supplies through parts of the pipelines that weren't damaged by explosions last month.

Not suspicious, that one pipeline is still intact and Putin wants to start his NS2 project to keep Germany dependent and fund his russian war machine - not suspicious at all.

A few interesting points here:

- Germany decided not to use Russian gas before the war? I do not think so, in fact they have lobbied in the EU to decide that gas "is green".

Germany just decided due to the war to abandon Russian gas.
Before the war, Germany was like "Well, Putin is a bit strange and not democratic at all but maybe Putin will improve and cheap gas is nice". Gas from Russia wasn't popular but it was cheap. And that's why NordStream 2 was built.
The opinion about Russian gas changed massively, when Putin invaded Ukraine. Putin showed for everyone that he can't be trusted. His obvious lies ahead and during his "special operation", his war crimes and Putin even threatened to halt gas exports if Germany doesn't pay in Rubles, a demand Putin set up himself in 2022. By then, Germany's only problem was to get enough gas for the next winter (Putin's plan to "freeze Germany / Europe", like mentioned by suchmoon here (where Putin failed miserably as well  ))
Regarding his "gas to Germany" strategy, Putin miscalculated big time, that much more German politicians would be currupt or "Putinfriends" like our ex chancellor Gerhard Schröder. Putin calculated that his corrupt politicians won't decide to stop gas imports and don't deliever weapons to Ukraine. But turned out for Putin, that his bought politicians were not enough.
Germany decided to ditch Russian gas and even to deliever weapons to Ukraine.  

- Germany would be fine with returning to use RF gas. I know, it seems impossible today, but I give 1 year after a permanent cease fire to go back to cheap energy.

Some politicians would, for sure. But Putin's activity of buying currupt politicians has shifted massively to far-right AfD (and also still "Die Linke" (far left)). Moving forward, purchasing Russian gas again, will be extremely unpopular in Germany, especially because one of the key mistakes of German politics was to rely too much on Russian gas. Getting (almost) independent from other countries (no single point of failure) is a very popular political position in Germany now.
And a party advocating for the opposite would face enourmous criticism to repeat the same mistakes from pre-2022 again.
Putin has lost most of his support among German politicians due to his war against Ukraine. Many pro-russian networks of curruption were exposed and dismantled.

- Germany does not depend on the Russian gas, in the same sense that I do not depend on the cheapest restaurant around to eat. It is just the cheapest, as long as they do not go on an invading spree.

Yes, Germany's "problem" was mainly rising gas prices due to such a big percentage of gas coming from Russia. This is now solved since Putin hasn't any leverage here anymore.

After all, the only thing Putin's war achieved in that regard so far is a big miscalculation, where he has lost most European countries as a gas importer.  

[DaRude]

Seriously i have provided citations from major international publications with quotes of their sources in intelligence agencies all over the world, and best you could come up with is a quote from a German public-service television broadcaster with 16% reach in Germany citing an "expert in maritime security"?

You have not provided a single citation, where officials say that they have proof, that Ukraine is behind it. Because there is no proof that Ukraine is behind it. All, you have presented are guesses, "could be", "might be", "looks like" or similar.  
You are just hiding behind your weak "Ukrainian boat" story...
Keep insisting on it to defend your beloved war criminal in the Kremlin.

Pretty weak from the start but if your whole hypothesis is resting on this, lets take a look.

That's once again a lie from you because I've never said this. Stop making up things but lying seems to be your hobby...  

In order to blow up the pipelines, investigators estimate that around 500 kilograms of TNT equivalent would be needed per explosion. Exactly how much was used cannot be said because it is unclear which explosive was used was used.

Published 16 March 2023 with "enormous doubts about the one-ship theory" of your expert mostly resting on the half a ton of TNT equivalent. And just two month later on 26 May 2023 this was published, completely destroying your little theory.

According to SPIEGEL information, the metadata of an e-mail that was sent when the Andromeda 5+ sailing yacht allegedly used to transport the explosives was rented leads to Ukraine.
…
There is also repeated talk of a so-called "false flag" operation by Russia. Among those familiar with the process, this is considered extremely unlikely. Behind the scenes, it was even said early on that Moscow had no real motive for the crime.
…
In the cabin of the "Andromeda" the remains of an explosive suitable for use under water were found over a large area. It is said to be octogen, an explosive that is widespread in both the West and the former Eastern bloc. Investigators have described the explosive power of the explosive charges used as equivalent to 500 kilograms of TNT.
…
Oktogen is much lighter than TNT, could be transported by a relatively small boat, and could have been taken to the bottom of the Baltic Sea by experienced combat divers. The often-put-up thesis that the assassins could only have brought the explosives to the site of the attack because of its weight with a larger ship and possibly a mini-submarine is no longer applicable Intelligence services suspect Ukrainian perpetrators

Just because a "light explosive" is suspected to be used, it doesn't mean, it has been used.
In case of a Russian false flag operation, it would have been a very easy thing from Russia to leave these traces intentionally on that rented "Ukrainian boat" to create this story and afterwards cry "Ukraine is evil and behind it". And loyal Putin serfs, like you are one, are doing the rest to push this story again and again.  

It's not surprising that Putin's war crimes apologists in the West have selected the "Ukrainian boat" theory because it's such a nebulous story and perfectly suited for Putler's approach to sow discord among Ukraine's allies, why not providing any valid proof. It's a story that nebulous that Putin's loyal servs can accuse Ukraine of anything.
You are a perfect tool for Putin to commit more war crimes in Ukraine and it's really surpsrising how vehemently you are trying to accuse Ukraine without having any solid proof.
Everyday a new post, today 2 new posts, so we are at post number 9 defending Putler.  

Do you do any research at all before posting something? Or you just enjoy being embarrassed? Are you saying SPIEGEL is Russian propaganda now? Do you think they're lying to you? Did you contact them explaining how you disagreed with their theory and told them what you thought really happened? Did they laugh?

In opposite to you, I'm doing research and also thinking about it if it's making sense or not.
You are obviously lacking any critical thinking skills or why are you pushing this weak story now in over half a dozen posts, again and again? Putin really likes to have such loyal serfs like you because without you, he would be able to kill much less Ukrainians. People like you are the problem why Putin feels emboldened to invade Ukraine because people like you would keep purchasing cheap gas, funding Putins aggression and let him take whole Ukraine.
Shame, shame...


And you should read the forum rules and avoid pyramid quotes as well...  
But reading is not your strength, obviously...

Bottom line, there is no proof. My personal view - Russia most likely did it. My guess is that Ukraine would not damage infrastructure that mostly benefits Germany - an ally - and could stop EU aid if detected. Yes, I will write it again, the NS benefited mostly Germany.

It not even benefitted Germany anymore. When the pipelines were blown up, Germany had decided to abandon Russian gas, so all the pipelines would have been unseless anyways even if they'd still exist.
Also important to note, that 2 pipelines of NS1 were blown up but only 1 pipeline of NS2. 1 pipeline from NS2 is still intact.
And - no surprise - shortly after the explosions, Putin suggested to open the remaining NS2 pipeline.

Putin offers Europe gas through Nord Stream 2 - DW - 10/12/2022

The Russian leader offered to resume gas supplies through parts of the pipelines that weren't damaged by explosions last month.

Not suspicious, that one pipeline is still intact and Putin wants to start his NS2 project to keep Germany dependent and fund his russian war machine - not suspicious at all.

So the only citation of "enormous doubts" you provided from back in March was refuted by new information released since then. You provide zero new sources, just childish attempts to seed more doubt and uncertainty. I'm just a messenger posting news from the western media, yet instead of attempting to address why would all major newspapers suddenly publish a "nebulous story and perfectly suited for Putler's approach to sow discord among Ukraine's allies" you just continue with your silly personal attacks on me for posting the news? So, on one hand we have SPIEGEL claiming that "false flag" considered extremely unlikely, and Moscow had no real motive for the crime, and on another we have 1miau ignoring everything and pushing his false flag conspiracy theory with the super reliable source of Think we can all decide who we trust more on this one.

[be.open]

In the meantime, it seems that the Ukrainian counter-offensive in the Kupyansk direction has become negative. Russia has already liberated more than 270 square kilometers and approached the city at a distance of 8 km. Ukraine announced an evacuation and Syrsky requested an urgent transfer of reserves in order to stabilize the situation, fraught with the collapse of the front.

[1miau]

So the only citation of "enormous doubts" you provided from back in March was refuted by new information released since then. You provide zero new sources, just childish attempts to seed more doubt and uncertainty.

You clearly have not understand anything from what I've explained to you. I have quoted the maritime expert because he's a maritime expert and not an explosives expert. The operation is far more than xx kg of explosives. You don't do this sort of operation on a day trip. Not on this ship, not 100s of km from the German cost, where the Andromeda was rented, not for 3x blowing up the pipelines. 
But since you claim a possible Russian false flag has been refutet, you have not provided any proof, why it shouldn't be possible that Russia has left these traces on the "Ukrainian boat" intentionally.
The version of Russia leaving these traces of "light" explosives intentionally would be very plausible to make their story more "legitimate".

I'm always surprised to see people like you  completely overlooking the fact that only 3 pipelines out of 4 were detonated. Guess what? Maybe people would see the clear picture that only Putin has to gain something to blow up 3 of 4 Pipelines of that useless gas pipeline.

Also important to note, that 2 pipelines of NS1 were blown up but only 1 pipeline of NS2. 1 pipeline from NS2 is still intact.
And - no surprise - shortly after the explosions, Putin suggested to open the remaining NS2 pipeline.

Putin offers Europe gas through Nord Stream 2 - DW - 10/12/2022

The Russian leader offered to resume gas supplies through parts of the pipelines that weren't damaged by explosions last month.

Not suspicious, that one pipeline is still intact and Putin wants to start his NS2 project to keep Germany dependent and fund his russian war machine - not suspicious at all.

[suchmoon]

I appreciate the beginning of the transition from the silly denial stage into acceptance stage. But i'm truly stumbled by your question, pretense that Ukraine can set off explosions anywhere in the world is truly preposterous. Wait, perhaps you just believe that Ukraine is in war with Denmark or Sweden too? Perhaps you should ask paxmao why he feels that this is an act of war against those countries? Or you should ask US or Western allies why they view it as a sabotage on critical infrastructure? I'm not sure how else I can explain that Ukraine cannot blow up civilian infrastructures inside other countries Or are you still just trying to involve as many countries into this as you can to get the WW3 going by setting the precedent for Russia to blow up some pipeline/civ. infrastructure in another country too?

Nice collection of loaded questions and other insinuations. Good indication of how you tend to twist anything and generally have no interest in discussing stuff in good faith.

First of all, acceptance? LOL. It's a hypothetical. I don't know who did it, nor do you no matter how hard you pretend.

Then you're trying to pretend as if it happened in Sweden or Denmark. It didn't. Nor do the pipelines belong to Sweden or Denmark. It's Gazprom property in international waters. Not much different than sinking a Russian ship in Black Sea.

But yeah, some governments and news sources and perhaps even some users of this forum would use big words like "sabotage" (not "terrorism" though; try a dictionary if you're confused) if the implication is that the "bad guys" did it, and likely would use different words if it was the "good guys", I'll give you that. This doesn't make your speculations into facts, it just makes you a doofus who can't (or doesn't want to) tell the difference.

[DaRude]

So the only citation of "enormous doubts" you provided from back in March was refuted by new information released since then. You provide zero new sources, just childish attempts to seed more doubt and uncertainty.

You clearly have not understand anything from what I've explained to you. I have quoted the maritime expert because he's a maritime expert and not an explosives expert. The operation is far more than xx kg of explosives. You don't do this sort of operation on a day trip. Not on this ship, not 100s of km from the German cost, where the Andromeda was rented, not for 3x blowing up the pipelines.  
But since you claim a possible Russian false flag has been refutet, you have not provided any proof, why it shouldn't be possible that Russia has left these traces on the "Ukrainian boat" intentionally.
The version of Russia leaving these traces of "light" explosives intentionally would be very plausible to make their story more "legitimate".

I'm always surprised to see people like you  completely overlooking the fact that only 3 pipelines out of 4 were detonated. Guess what? Maybe people would see the clear picture that only Putin has to gain something to blow up 3 of 4 Pipelines of that useless gas pipeline.

Also important to note, that 2 pipelines of NS1 were blown up but only 1 pipeline of NS2. 1 pipeline from NS2 is still intact.
And - no surprise - shortly after the explosions, Putin suggested to open the remaining NS2 pipeline.

Putin offers Europe gas through Nord Stream 2 - DW - 10/12/2022

The Russian leader offered to resume gas supplies through parts of the pipelines that weren't damaged by explosions last month.

Not suspicious, that one pipeline is still intact and Putin wants to start his NS2 project to keep Germany dependent and fund his russian war machine - not suspicious at all.

I have not provided any proof that aliens don't exist either, so why it shouldn't be possible that aliens did it? Or why it shouldn't be possible that Putin rode a narwhal? etc, etc, etc ...

I'm sure your think of yourself as some sort of expert and that we should all care about what is plausible to you, but here no one really cares for your conspiracy theories and about your extensive research on how the world is flat. (Just, as in all fairness, no one should really cares why i think it's a sphere). We either put up a reliable sources or stop wasting everyone's time by seeding doubt with your silly nonsense opinions.  
You claim a nonexistent "false flag" conspiracy theory with 0 proof, i provide SPIEGEL article that straight up says expert consider "false flag" is extremely unlikely, and then you ask me to proof that something never existed in the first place   you don't even attempt to answer any of my questions on why all of the western media is publishing this, just keep saying that aliens did it, it's like debating with a kid

I appreciate the beginning of the transition from the silly denial stage into acceptance stage. But i'm truly stumbled by your question, pretense that Ukraine can set off explosions anywhere in the world is truly preposterous. Wait, perhaps you just believe that Ukraine is in war with Denmark or Sweden too? Perhaps you should ask paxmao why he feels that this is an act of war against those countries? Or you should ask US or Western allies why they view it as a sabotage on critical infrastructure? I'm not sure how else I can explain that Ukraine cannot blow up civilian infrastructures inside other countries Or are you still just trying to involve as many countries into this as you can to get the WW3 going by setting the precedent for Russia to blow up some pipeline/civ. infrastructure in another country too?

Nice collection of loaded questions and other insinuations. Good indication of how you tend to twist anything and generally have no interest in discussing stuff in good faith.

First of all, acceptance? LOL. It's a hypothetical. I don't know who did it, nor do you no matter how hard you pretend.

Then you're trying to pretend as if it happened in Sweden or Denmark. It didn't. Nor do the pipelines belong to Sweden or Denmark. It's Gazprom property in international waters. Not much different than sinking a Russian ship in Black Sea.

But yeah, some governments and news sources and perhaps even some users of this forum would use big words like "sabotage" (not "terrorism" though; try a dictionary if you're confused) if the implication is that the "bad guys" did it, and likely would use different words if it was the "good guys", I'll give you that. This doesn't make your speculations into facts, it just makes you a doofus who can't (or doesn't want to) tell the difference.

How stupid would you sound if i never pretended that it happened in Sweden or Denmark? It happened within the economic zones of Denmark and Sweden. That's why they're doing the investigation and not allowing Russia access to investigate it themselves, and how they delayed approving the project in the first place. And then you'd sound even dumber when you'll find out that i never said it was terrorism either. Do you always first make up stuff and then start arguing with it yourself?

But looks like professor at Columbia did call it terrorism in front of UN, perhaps you should argue with him on the wording?

My name is Jeffrey D. Sachs.  I am University Professor at Columbia University. I am a specialist in the global economy, including global trade, finance, infrastructure, and economic statecraft.  I appear before the UN Security Council on my own behalf.  I represent no government or organization in the testimony that I will deliver.

The destruction of the Nord Stream pipelines on September 26, 2022 constitutes an act of international terrorism and represents a threat to the peace.  It is the responsibility of the UN Security Council to take up the question of who might have carried out the act, in order to bring the perpetrator to international justice, to pursue compensation for the damaged parties, and to prevent future such actions. 

The blasts at the Nord Stream pipeline in September were caused by an act of sabotage, Swedish prosecutors said Friday after evidence of explosives was discovered at the sites by investigators.

In a statement, Mats Ljungqvist, the prosecutor leading the preliminary investigation, described the incident as “gross sabotage,”

Why is he saying this? Why is Netherlands saying they warned USA 3 months before the attack? Why CIA director is on record saying that there are no links to Russia? And every news outlet posting stories about links to Ukraine? *crickets*crickets*crickets...

[suchmoon]

professor at Columbia
Swedish prosecutors
Netherlands
CIA director
every news outlet

None of which we're supposed to trust because global lizard conspiracy against Russia, or is that different now?

But I get it, the free speech thing and freedom in general is confusing. Lots of different opinions and not just one party telling you what to think.

[DaRude]

professor at Columbia
Swedish prosecutors
Netherlands
CIA director
every news outlet

None of which we're supposed to trust because global lizard conspiracy against Russia, or is that different now?

But I get it, the free speech thing and freedom in general is confusing. Lots of different opinions and not just one party telling you what to think.

Mentions global lizards, but doesn't answer the question, can't say im surprised. Mind citing recent "lots of different opinions" (outside of 1miau hallucinations) that lead to Russia as the saboteur, i'd love to read them.

(I'm fully expecting UA sources or "go search the internet" for proof to my claims yourself   )

Edit: As far as credibility, we're all (i hope) are aware of inherent biases. We fully expect bias in UA coverage of RU (and vise versa), RU/US spokesman coverage of their respective countries (it's literally their job), lawyers arguing for their side (which they get paid for), CNN bias towards republicans, FOX's bias towards democrats etc etc etc Every critical thinking person should take such claims with a healthy portion of inherent criticism. Parent claiming innocence of their child is not a surprise but is expected, parent expressing doubt about their child's innocence should be paid attention to. So it's not that the source is biased (everyone is to a degree), it's how they're biased vs. how they cover the event is what's important. That's what makes western media's coverage and publishing stories linking this sabotage to UA (multiply that by their bias towards UA) is why it's so unprecedented. That carries a lot more weight than RU sources claiming the same.

[1miau]

So the only citation of "enormous doubts" you provided from back in March was refuted by new information released since then. You provide zero new sources, just childish attempts to seed more doubt and uncertainty.

You clearly have not understand anything from what I've explained to you. I have quoted the maritime expert because he's a maritime expert and not an explosives expert. The operation is far more than xx kg of explosives. You don't do this sort of operation on a day trip. Not on this ship, not 100s of km from the German cost, where the Andromeda was rented, not for 3x blowing up the pipelines.  
But since you claim a possible Russian false flag has been refutet, you have not provided any proof, why it shouldn't be possible that Russia has left these traces on the "Ukrainian boat" intentionally.
The version of Russia leaving these traces of "light" explosives intentionally would be very plausible to make their story more "legitimate".

I'm always surprised to see people like you  completely overlooking the fact that only 3 pipelines out of 4 were detonated. Guess what? Maybe people would see the clear picture that only Putin has to gain something to blow up 3 of 4 Pipelines of that useless gas pipeline.

Also important to note, that 2 pipelines of NS1 were blown up but only 1 pipeline of NS2. 1 pipeline from NS2 is still intact.
And - no surprise - shortly after the explosions, Putin suggested to open the remaining NS2 pipeline.

Putin offers Europe gas through Nord Stream 2 - DW - 10/12/2022

The Russian leader offered to resume gas supplies through parts of the pipelines that weren't damaged by explosions last month.

Not suspicious, that one pipeline is still intact and Putin wants to start his NS2 project to keep Germany dependent and fund his russian war machine - not suspicious at all.

I have not provided any proof that aliens don't exist either, so why it shouldn't be possible that aliens did it? Or why it shouldn't be possible that Putin rode a narwhal? etc, etc, etc ...

Nice to have your confirmation that you can't disprove that Putin faked this "Ukrainian boat" story to accuse Ukraine and destroy Ukraine's coalition. 

We either put up a reliable sources or stop wasting everyone's time by seeding doubt with your silly nonsense opinions.  
You claim a nonexistent "false flag" conspiracy theory with 0 proof, i provide SPIEGEL article that straight up says expert consider "false flag" is extremely unlikely, and then you ask me to proof that something never existed in the first place   you don't even attempt to answer any of my questions on why all of the western media is publishing this, just keep saying that aliens did it, it's like debating with a kid

That's cheap coming from a person who can't prove that Ukraine is definitely behind it. 
As I've said before, Putin really likes to lie to the public and even to his loyal serfs. 
The problem with Putins propaganda is one thing: it's created that way that it's really difficult to be proven wrong because it's just trying to achieve one thing: His propaganda doesn't need to stick, it's enough if it's causing enough fear, uncertainty, doubt and discord between Ukraine's allies. And Putin could still put his useless pipeline in a martyr role: blow it up and accuse "evil Ukraine has destroyed his great pipeline".
Putin knows very well, that his loyal apologists will push even the dumbest stories, where every time someone else except Russia is at fault. Russia invades Ukraine? Everyone is at fault but not Russia. Russia bombed Ukraine? It didn't happen or Ukraine bombed itself. According to Putler's propaganda, it's never Russia.
He's committing war crimes and at the same time he's playing the victim card. And Kremlin trolls like you are enabling that.
Shame, shame. 

I'm sure your think of yourself as some sort of expert and that we should all care about what is plausible to you, but here no one really cares for your conspiracy theories and about your extensive research on how the world is flat.

Well, that's an outright lie, I have never claimed that the earth would be flat. 
No need to bring up any stupid strawmen here...
What else could we expect from dumb pricks like you... 

It's already your 5th post, where you are trying to accuse Ukraine for something, you have no valid proof for and Ukraine has no profit to do so.

I stand corrected, it's your 6th post where you are defending war criminal Putler... 

I've stopped counting, but probably we are at post number 10 or 11 right now...
Must be extremely important to you to defend war criminal Putler.

Putin is really proud to have loyal serfs like you because without them, his propaganda wouldn't stick as easily as loyal serfs like you are spreading them constantly. 

[suchmoon]

Mentions global lizards, but doesn't answer the question, can't say im surprised.

You putting question marks on your sentences doesn't make then something to be answered. "Firehose" of loaded questions used to be prominent in Soviet propaganda and Putin has clearly evolved this style for the new intertubes era.

Russian Propaganda Is High-Volume and Multichannel

Russian propaganda is produced in incredibly large volumes and is broadcast or otherwise distributed via a large number of channels. This propaganda includes text, video, audio, and still imagery propagated via the Internet, social media, satellite television, and traditional radio and television broadcasting. The producers and disseminators include a substantial force of paid Internet “trolls” who also often attack or undermine views or information that runs counter to Russian themes, doing so through online chat rooms, discussion forums, and comments sections on news and other websites. Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty reports that “there are thousands of fake accounts on Twitter, Facebook, LiveJournal, and vKontakte” maintained by Russian propagandists. According to a former paid Russian Internet troll, the trolls are on duty 24 hours a day, in 12-hour shifts, and each has a daily quota of 135 posted comments of at least 200 characters.

But let me guess, these are the bad lizards, can't believe this article, Ukrainians did it.

[tvbcof]

Mentions global lizards, but doesn't answer the question, can't say im surprised.

You putting question marks on your sentences doesn't make then something to be answered. "Firehose" of loaded questions used to be prominent in Soviet propaganda and Putin has clearly evolved this style for the new intertubes era.

Russian Propaganda Is High-Volume and Multichannel

Russian propaganda is produced in incredibly large volumes and is broadcast or otherwise distributed via a large number of channels. This propaganda includes text, video, audio, and still imagery propagated via the Internet, social media, satellite television, and traditional radio and television broadcasting. The producers and disseminators include a substantial force of paid Internet “trolls” who also often attack or undermine views or information that runs counter to Russian themes, doing so through online chat rooms, discussion forums, and comments sections on news and other websites. Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty reports that “there are thousands of fake accounts on Twitter, Facebook, LiveJournal, and vKontakte” maintained by Russian propagandists. According to a former paid Russian Internet troll, the trolls are on duty 24 hours a day, in 12-hour shifts, and each has a daily quota of 135 posted comments of at least 200 characters.

But let me guess, these are the bad lizards, can't believe this article, Ukrainians did it.

RAND!?!  Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.  Better check in with Chatham House (and their various properties) to get the 'consensus' you need.

[paxmao]

Mentions global lizards, but doesn't answer the question, can't say im surprised.

You putting question marks on your sentences doesn't make then something to be answered. "Firehose" of loaded questions used to be prominent in Soviet propaganda and Putin has clearly evolved this style for the new intertubes era.

Russian Propaganda Is High-Volume and Multichannel

Russian propaganda is produced in incredibly large volumes and is broadcast or otherwise distributed via a large number of channels. This propaganda includes text, video, audio, and still imagery propagated via the Internet, social media, satellite television, and traditional radio and television broadcasting. The producers and disseminators include a substantial force of paid Internet “trolls” who also often attack or undermine views or information that runs counter to Russian themes, doing so through online chat rooms, discussion forums, and comments sections on news and other websites. Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty reports that “there are thousands of fake accounts on Twitter, Facebook, LiveJournal, and vKontakte” maintained by Russian propagandists. According to a former paid Russian Internet troll, the trolls are on duty 24 hours a day, in 12-hour shifts, and each has a daily quota of 135 posted comments of at least 200 characters.

But let me guess, these are the bad lizards, can't believe this article, Ukrainians did it.

Ruzzia is on the mindset of applying the same method that they use at home to turn the constituents in democracies against Ukraine. At this moment they are shouting over an over that the offensive is a failure. By force of repetition and with some echo in selected western media, they pretend to shape public opinion. It is not the first time and it will not be the last.

My hope is that people from Europe, US and other countries can discern at minimum their own best interests in all this.

[1miau]

Russian Propaganda Is High-Volume and Multichannel

...
According to a former paid Russian Internet troll, the trolls are on duty 24 hours a day, in 12-hour shifts, and each has a daily quota of 135 posted comments of at least 200 characters.

Amazing, sigspammer's paradise.  

Additional rules:

- Plagiarizing from our Kremlin talking point rulebook is not allowed. All of our Kremlin rulebook talking points need to be re-phrased in your own words.
- Enrolling multiple accounts is allowed
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- Posting russian in non-russian outlets is not allowed and will result in getting you remove from the campaign and sent to Gulag.

[suchmoon]

~

Gulag is too fancy, some might even survive... I think the current Kremlin Clown prefers to punish his loyal subjects by sending them to Ukraine to participate in the special cannon fodder operation.

[DaRude]

So the only citation of "enormous doubts" you provided from back in March was refuted by new information released since then. You provide zero new sources, just childish attempts to seed more doubt and uncertainty.

You clearly have not understand anything from what I've explained to you. I have quoted the maritime expert because he's a maritime expert and not an explosives expert. The operation is far more than xx kg of explosives. You don't do this sort of operation on a day trip. Not on this ship, not 100s of km from the German cost, where the Andromeda was rented, not for 3x blowing up the pipelines.  
But since you claim a possible Russian false flag has been refutet, you have not provided any proof, why it shouldn't be possible that Russia has left these traces on the "Ukrainian boat" intentionally.
The version of Russia leaving these traces of "light" explosives intentionally would be very plausible to make their story more "legitimate".

I'm always surprised to see people like you  completely overlooking the fact that only 3 pipelines out of 4 were detonated. Guess what? Maybe people would see the clear picture that only Putin has to gain something to blow up 3 of 4 Pipelines of that useless gas pipeline.

Also important to note, that 2 pipelines of NS1 were blown up but only 1 pipeline of NS2. 1 pipeline from NS2 is still intact.
And - no surprise - shortly after the explosions, Putin suggested to open the remaining NS2 pipeline.

Putin offers Europe gas through Nord Stream 2 - DW - 10/12/2022

The Russian leader offered to resume gas supplies through parts of the pipelines that weren't damaged by explosions last month.

Not suspicious, that one pipeline is still intact and Putin wants to start his NS2 project to keep Germany dependent and fund his russian war machine - not suspicious at all.

I have not provided any proof that aliens don't exist either, so why it shouldn't be possible that aliens did it? Or why it shouldn't be possible that Putin rode a narwhal? etc, etc, etc ...

Nice to have your confirmation that you can't disprove that Putin faked this "Ukrainian boat" story to accuse Ukraine and destroy Ukraine's coalition.  

We either put up a reliable sources or stop wasting everyone's time by seeding doubt with your silly nonsense opinions.  
You claim a nonexistent "false flag" conspiracy theory with 0 proof, i provide SPIEGEL article that straight up says expert consider "false flag" is extremely unlikely, and then you ask me to proof that something never existed in the first place   you don't even attempt to answer any of my questions on why all of the western media is publishing this, just keep saying that aliens did it, it's like debating with a kid

That's cheap coming from a person who can't prove that Ukraine is definitely behind it.  
As I've said before, Putin really likes to lie to the public and even to his loyal serfs.  
The problem with Putins propaganda is one thing: it's created that way that it's really difficult to be proven wrong because it's just trying to achieve one thing: His propaganda doesn't need to stick, it's enough if it's causing enough fear, uncertainty, doubt and discord between Ukraine's allies. And Putin could still put his useless pipeline in a martyr role: blow it up and accuse "evil Ukraine has destroyed his great pipeline".
Putin knows very well, that his loyal apologists will push even the dumbest stories, where every time someone else except Russia is at fault. Russia invades Ukraine? Everyone is at fault but not Russia. Russia bombed Ukraine? It didn't happen or Ukraine bombed itself. According to Putler's propaganda, it's never Russia.
He's committing war crimes and at the same time he's playing the victim card. And Kremlin trolls like you are enabling that.
Shame, shame.  

I'm sure your think of yourself as some sort of expert and that we should all care about what is plausible to you, but here no one really cares for your conspiracy theories and about your extensive research on how the world is flat.

Well, that's an outright lie, I have never claimed that the earth would be flat.  
No need to bring up any stupid strawmen here...
What else could we expect from dumb pricks like you...  

It's already your 5th post, where you are trying to accuse Ukraine for something, you have no valid proof for and Ukraine has no profit to do so.

I stand corrected, it's your 6th post where you are defending war criminal Putler...  

I've stopped counting, but probably we are at post number 10 or 11 right now...
Must be extremely important to you to defend war criminal Putler.

Putin is really proud to have loyal serfs like you because without them, his propaganda wouldn't stick as easily as loyal serfs like you are spreading them constantly.  

No really, how old are you? You do realize that this is not coming from Putin or even RU sources, and that now you're accusing western media of pushing Putin's propaganda?

I also cannot disprove that you're a cannibal who likes eating children, and you're glad of such confirmation, which proves absolutely nothing? That's what stands behind the whole concept of proof, and how the burden of proof, in adult world, falls on the claimant, as in majority of cases it's simply impossible to disprove a negative. You should get to that in grade 10 or thereabout, now it's very time consuming to educate you, until you can find some citations to your outlandish conspiracy theories just sit quietly and let the adults speak, as your personal opinions carry 0 weight.

Mentions global lizards, but doesn't answer the question, can't say im surprised.

You putting question marks on your sentences doesn't make then something to be answered. "Firehose" of loaded questions used to be prominent in Soviet propaganda and Putin has clearly evolved this style for the new intertubes era.

Russian Propaganda Is High-Volume and Multichannel

Russian propaganda is produced in incredibly large volumes and is broadcast or otherwise distributed via a large number of channels. This propaganda includes text, video, audio, and still imagery propagated via the Internet, social media, satellite television, and traditional radio and television broadcasting. The producers and disseminators include a substantial force of paid Internet “trolls” who also often attack or undermine views or information that runs counter to Russian themes, doing so through online chat rooms, discussion forums, and comments sections on news and other websites. Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty reports that “there are thousands of fake accounts on Twitter, Facebook, LiveJournal, and vKontakte” maintained by Russian propagandists. According to a former paid Russian Internet troll, the trolls are on duty 24 hours a day, in 12-hour shifts, and each has a daily quota of 135 posted comments of at least 200 characters.

But let me guess, these are the bad lizards, can't believe this article, Ukrainians did it.

Cool justification for not engaging in adult conversations but just making this forum an endless stream of twitter copypasta/shitposting from both sides.

Mentions global lizards, but doesn't answer the question, can't say im surprised.

You putting question marks on your sentences doesn't make then something to be answered. "Firehose" of loaded questions used to be prominent in Soviet propaganda and Putin has clearly evolved this style for the new intertubes era.

Russian Propaganda Is High-Volume and Multichannel

Russian propaganda is produced in incredibly large volumes and is broadcast or otherwise distributed via a large number of channels. This propaganda includes text, video, audio, and still imagery propagated via the Internet, social media, satellite television, and traditional radio and television broadcasting. The producers and disseminators include a substantial force of paid Internet “trolls” who also often attack or undermine views or information that runs counter to Russian themes, doing so through online chat rooms, discussion forums, and comments sections on news and other websites. Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty reports that “there are thousands of fake accounts on Twitter, Facebook, LiveJournal, and vKontakte” maintained by Russian propagandists. According to a former paid Russian Internet troll, the trolls are on duty 24 hours a day, in 12-hour shifts, and each has a daily quota of 135 posted comments of at least 200 characters.

But let me guess, these are the bad lizards, can't believe this article, Ukrainians did it.

Ruzzia is on the mindset of applying the same method that they use at home to turn the constituents in democracies against Ukraine. At this moment they are shouting over an over that the offensive is a failure. By force of repetition and with some echo in selected western media, they pretend to shape public opinion. It is not the first time and it will not be the last.

My hope is that people from Europe, US and other countries can discern at minimum their own best interests in all this.

I asked you directly if Germany issuing arrest warrants for those Ukrainians would make you concede that UA blew up Nord Stream? Or you're at the point where new facts don't really matter?

[1miau]

No really, how old are you?

Researching seems to be a very difficult challenge for you but you can look it up on my profile page. 

You do realize that this is not coming from Putin or even RU sources, and that now you're accusing western media of pushing Putin's propaganda?

I've claimed nowhere that western media is spreading Putin propaganda.
Of course, western media will report about "traces leading to Ukraine, traces of explosives found on the ship" etc. etc. because western media is far less corrupt than your Putler TV counterpart.
But "traces leading to Ukraine, traces of explosives found on the ship" doesn't mean that Ukraine DID it: traces can be faked by Putler to accuse Ukraine and even the whole "Ukrainian boat" story might be untrue as pointed out because Russian ships have been located there as well: Putin's secret convoi.
Sometimes, some outlets are a bit too naive and just quote the Kremlin statements without addressing the lies. That's a big issue because addressing the Kremlin misinformation right away is very important.
For some outlets, it's also an issue that a few authors are deliberate Putin apologists and they are obsessed with defending Putins war crimes and try to get their bullshit text into German publications and even on TV.
Like you, they are competely obsessed and their only "mission" is to defend Putler. Like always in our talk shows, where always a Putin apologist is invited as a guest and their only part is to spread Putin's disproven propaganda again and again in German talk shows.
Like: "delievering weapons to Ukraine is fueling the war", "we need to talk to Putin", "Putin is misunderstood", "but NATO bad", "Ukraine needs to concede territory to Russia" etc. etc. etc...
These people are very annoying and a big joke (like you).

For them, it's all about trying to push these Kremlin talking points again and again to sow discord and doubt.

I asked you directly if Germany issuing arrest warrants for those Ukrainians would make you concede that UA blew up Nord Stream? Or you're at the point where new facts don't really matter?

I've told you already that our radical right-wing party (AfD) is very unlikely to get into power and therefore the sane parties won't make Putin a favor and these parties will avoid to do anything where no proper proof is presented.
Obviously, you are at the point, where you would like to throw Ukraine under the bus and nothing is too shady for you to do it.

So, once again: