Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress]

[paxmao]

And now, the winter missile campaign - same tactics, same results (e.g. convincing the US to send a few more Patriots.)

32 patriot missiles could not stop single Russian missile

I will take your word for that, sure, but you see, the problem is that other people less informed than you, such as the Pentagon, may think that they actually have been quite successful in defending the key areas. What a strange thing Branko, how can they be so wrong and you be so right when they have all that fancy stuff gathering information for them?

Unfortunately Branko, it is that less informed than you people who will make that decision - but it is ok, because "Patriot does not work" right?

But the good thing is that they Air defence forces of Ukraine now have a great ally! The Ruzzian Air defence forces!

https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-accidentally-downed-own-su-35-fighter-jet-uk-intel-2023-10?r=US&IR=T#:~:text=been%20taken%20out.-,Russia%20shot%20down%20one%20of%20its%20own%20Su%2D35%20fighter,shot%20down%20the%20advanced%20jet.

Russia shot down one of its own Su-35 fighter jets in a recent friendly-fire incident, UK intelligence suggested.

If I would be wrong, they would not quietly stop sending more patriot systems

Shhh... do not tell anyone... they are doing it very quietly, the press is just to smart for them...

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-provide-ukraine-with-an-additional-patriot-air-defence-system-scholz-2023-10-05/

BERLIN, Oct 5 (Reuters) - Germany is working on the supply of an additional Patriot air defence missile system to Ukraine in the winter months, German Chancellor Olaf Scholz said on Thursday.

"This is what is most necessary now - to ensure air defence with this highly efficient system," Scholz said after the first day of the EU Political Community summit in Granada, Spain.

The German chancellor said Russia would try to threaten Ukraine's infrastructure and cities again this winter with missile and drone attacks, and that is what made the air defence system a priority.

But it may be that the German Government also is not as informed as you, they probably read different "reports". However, here you have the opportunity to prove your claim. Why do you say that Patriot have not stopped a single missile? Go for it, your time to publish one of those "articles" that you like so much.

Sure, it is just that the solution you propose (Ukraine simply surrendering) is not a long term solution at all, it will carry war after war from a "victorious" Ruzzia, which is not acceptable outcome to me.

Speaking of meters, I think meters matter. Even 500 meters matter a lot. It is more or less what Ukraine need to take to place a HIMARS in range of hitting Berdiansk. Or any location along the coast or the railway line. Why do you think they are asking for ATACAMS? I think is because they can see a lot, but they cannot hit it (supplies, depots, command centres, logistics...)

So yes, a few meters here and there matter, which is the reason why Ukraine is still fighting for 50 meters at the time.

Yes that's exactly my point. To say that an outcome is not acceptable, you need to consider what cost you are willing to pay to change that outcome,


[... snip the Kremlin propaganda]//*

EDIT:
As far as ATACMS all they're needed for is to raise the moral in Ukrainian. Looks like UA's power grid is unlikely to hold up this winter. UA will need some positive coverage during that time, look we're forbidden to use them in Russia, so look how we can shoot at this one substation in Crimea, to cause some RU village to also loose power...

Ukraine's air force expects a record number of Russian drone attacks on its soil this winter, its spokesperson Yuriy Ihnat said on Sunday, as Kyiv girds for a second winter of mass bombardment of its energy facilities.

Ihnat said that data for September showed the use by Russia of Iranian-designed Shahed kamikaze drones would smash last year's figure.

"This autumn and winter ... is already a record in terms of the number of Shahed drones. Over 500 (were used) in September," Ihnat said in an interview on national television.

He contrasted this number with Russia's air strike campaign on Ukraine last winter, when he said about 1,000 Shahed drones were used in six months.
...
Despite Ukraine bolstering its air defences, officials have warned of the risk of a repeat this winter, with the power grid still far from rebuilt after the last campaign of bombardment.

Oh men... you just called narratives and spins and here you are repeating over and over the mainstream Kremlin propaganda. Your narrative is highly convenient to Ruzzia (I am not surprised) and fits perfectly what the Kremlin wants everyone to believe (I am not surprised). "theres is nothing to be done", "all effort is in vain", "Ruzzia is too big", "Ruzzia has too many people",... The usual propaganda. But the biggest lie is that conceeding anything will stop Ruzzia (more on that below).

It turns out it is false and easily identifiable as false:

- Ruzzia is not fighting Ukraine, is fighting a bunch of angry and well industrialised countries - with quite a big and technically advanced military industry.
- Ruzzia had to retreat from vast amounts of territory because they cannot hold.
- Ukraine has managed to penetrate and is still penetrating well entrenched positions.
- The grinding of military equipment is actually unsustainable for Ruzzia, but it is not for Ukraine and their allies (Japan had an advantage in fleet, but then... they did not, like Ruzzia now).

This are facts not "spins" or "narratives". Even the Kremlin propagandists have gone for "Kiev in 3 days" to "Lets shape a convenient border and hope they do not break our lines".

This of course matches things like wasting missiles in power infrastructure, which is (a) irrelevant to the war effort (b) proven to be inefficient (c) proven to reinforce the will of the people being attacked.
It simply reminds me of Hitler bombing London - zero military effectiveness - to "break the will of the English" - in case you are not in the know, it did not go well for him.

Yes, to call an outcome unacceptable you need to balance this and that (which is never an mathematical exercise, because you may put little price on liberty, while many are ok to die for it). The problem is that a "victorious" Ruzzia (at least in a tactical level, the strategic international level is lost already), would not be an outcome, it would be the first chapter of and endless war hot / cold / proxy and all mixed. It is totally false anything like "if Ukraine conceded the land they will stop there" - it is just not going to happen so the option of "stopping the war now" is a fantasy.

So sure, balance that in your dreams.

No, ATACAMS are a weapon, they are not Ruzzian propaganda nor Kremlin narratives for "moral effects". Ukraine wants ATACAMS to blow up things they cannot blow up now and would very much like to blow up. It is not that difficult to imagine a few "objects" that they would like to convert to a recyclable construction rubbish pile. Objects that are the real strategically relevant, not "the infrastructure grid to lower the morale".

And now, the winter missile campaign - same tactics, same results (e.g. convincing the US to send a few more Patriots.)

Careful, you might be loosing all objectivity. You can't just automatically dismiss something just because it's convenient for Kremlin. These things are not mutually exclusive. Just because it's convenient for Russia doesn't automatically make it a lie, just as not everything that supports Ukraine is a truth.

You once again attempting to spin that war of attrition is somehow more beneficial to Ukraine than to Russia, which is literally opposite to what everyone else is saying. So no, unlike you it's not just me making up stuff that's convenient to Kremlin.

Putin's plan to wear down support for Ukraine in a war of attrition seems to be working, though it's not risk-free

The Russian president has been playing a long game, wagering that Western resolve in helping Ukraine battle the Russian invasion was weak. In recent days there have been indications that it might be paying off.

In the US, Congress is currently split on whether to send more aid to Ukraine, a move opposed by Republicans in the House who recently unseated its speaker, Kevin McCarthy.

In Slovakia, a far-right party opposed to Ukraine aid won the general election; while in Germany support for the far-right AfD is surging on similar rhetoric.

If this winter brings more high fuel prices and inflation, exacerbated by the war, it could further erode public backing for large aid bills.

A war of attrition, say analysts, plays to Russian strengths, like its ability to manufacture more weapons and ammunition than Ukraine, and its much larger population.

Meanwhile, Ukraine's economy is struggling under the weight of the conflict and it is heavily dependent on Western aid.

"There are more and more signs that he's correct," Beebe told Insider of Putin's bet.

"Ukraine is not meeting its conscription goals, its economy is sagging under the weight of the war, and enthusiasm is waning both in the US and Europe for maintaining high levels of aid to Ukraine."

If Western aid were to dry up and Ukraine's resistance be seriously weakened, it's unclear how long Ukraine would be able to mount a resistance for — but at the very least Russia could transform Ukraine into failed state in permanent crisis.

Dismiss all of the red flags, as if it's just some random forum user claiming them, at your peril. Or rather, if you're US then sure you can ignore all of this as there's really no downside so it's logical to encourage the continuation of this conflict, for EU it's not so definite anymore, and for Ukraine the cost is definitely real, but that cost is not really a cost for anyone else but Ukraine, so keep encouraging more younger and women conscripts  

As far as wasting missiles on power infrastructure, I will take your word for that, sure, but you see, the problem is that other people less informed than you, such as the Pentagon, NATO, and Israel may think that they actually have been quite successful.

Unfortunately paxmao, it is that less informed than you people who will make that decision - but it is ok, because "attacking power infrastructure does not work" right?

NATO officials said the aim of the attacks, which plunged Belgrade into darkness Monday for several hours, was to disrupt military communications, command centers and air defense systems.
...
NATO planes have attacked bridges, oil refineries and other targets in raids that have affected civilians. But until Monday they had refrained from striking the electrical system. The alliance has repeatedly insisted its fight is with President Slobodan Milosevic, not with the Yugoslav people.

"The fact that lights went out across 70 percent of the country shows that NATO has its finger on the light switch now," said NATO spokesman Jamie Shea. "We can turn the power off whenever we need to and whenever we want to."

Though NATO insisted that its attacks on the electrical system would frustrate the Yugoslav and Serbian military, it was not immediately clear whether the forces had been hampered. The allies also say the attacks will not cut power to hospitals and other vital civilian services because they can turn to back-up generators powered by diesel fuel.
...
"We realize the inconvenience that may be caused to the Yugoslav people, but it up to Milosevic to decide how he wants to use his remaining energy resources: on his tanks or on his people," Shea said.

Lights go out in Baghdad as US sends in special forces

‘No Electricity, No Food, No Fuel’: Israel Orders ‘Complete Siege’ On Gaza Strip

All these world military powers should hire you so you could explain to them how "wasting missiles in power infrastructure, which is (a) irrelevant to the war effort (b) proven to be inefficient (c) proven to reinforce the will of the people being attacked." and i guess it's no surprise to anyone that when Russia does it, instead of all of these recent examples it reminds you of Hilter bombing London

edit: for everything else that you said there's NATO's article 5, it's silly to attempt to persuade anyone that Ukraine has somehow replaced NATO and it's guarantees to its member nations

They probably would like to hire me, they probably cannot pay the price  

1. The Israelis are not cutting supplies for the "war effort". I leave to your imagination (wild mostly) why have they first put 2 million people in a space that can hold 500k, then limit their movement, control their food, their water, every aspect of their lives and, after the Hamas attack, cut essential life supplies -  but I can tell you is not to achieve military objectives nor to diminish the "military production" of the Gaza strip.

2. The US army and NATO had plenty of military means to spare, if they were limited, they would not have given any priority to the grid for many reasons: (a) It is simply a infrastructure that easy to replace and repair and difficult to destroy beyond repair (particularly with the "precision" of the Ruzzian missiles). (b) Ukraine is too large for that strategy to be effective (c) the military production is mostly done outside Ukraine.

But you know, last winter they did it, and here we are so that proves is not effective, rational people would not need further proof.

For everything else you say, you are wrong. The Ukraine is not going to attack the RF grid with ATACAMS, as they are not doing so with Stormshadow, because they are not as stupid as the RF military and would rather not waste what they have. They will blow up military and economic objectives that really hurt - multi-million oil infrastructure, logistic hubs, we. They can see them thanks to "the gospel" from the sky and the massive infiltration behind Ruzzian lines. They are quite mad they cannot shot at them, but that's about to change.

The Article 5 would not stop Ruzzia from invading further Ukraine. So again, your solution of surrendering is not a solution, is a pause so that Ruzzia repairs the army a goes in the offensive again. You must think that people are stupid seriously - what a bunch of non-sense covered in a trillion words.

EDIT: Ruzzia has thrown plenty of troops in Avdiivka. I mean, thrown into a scrapyard literaly. Tens of BMPs an tanks in ashes (with their crews) in one day. The territorial gain has been... 50 meters? Another successful effort in "self-demilitarising" by Ruzzia.

https://youtu.be/emjwRD2nPqU?t=2674

[1714770191]

1714770191

[DaRude]

...

They probably would like to hire me, they probably cannot pay the price  

1. The Israelis are not cutting supplies for the "war effort". I leave to your imagination (wild mostly) why have they first put 2 million people in a space that can hold 500k, then limit their movement, control their food, their water, every aspect of their lives and, after the Hamas attack, cut essential life supplies -  but I can tell you is not to achieve military objectives nor to diminish the "military production" of the Gaza strip.

2. The US army and NATO had plenty of military means to spare, if they were limited, they would not have given any priority to the grid for many reasons: (a) It is simply a infrastructure that easy to replace and repair and difficult to destroy beyond repair (particularly with the "precision" of the Ruzzian missiles). (b) Ukraine is too large for that strategy to be effective (c) the military production is mostly done outside Ukraine.

But you know, last winter they did it, and here we are so that proves is not effective, rational people would not need further proof.

For everything else you say, you are wrong. The Ukraine is not going to attack the RF grid with ATACAMS, as they are not doing so with Stormshadow, because they are not as stupid as the RF military and would rather not waste what they have. They will blow up military and economic objectives that really hurt - multi-million oil infrastructure, logistic hubs, we. They can see them thanks to "the gospel" from the sky and the massive infiltration behind Ruzzian lines. They are quite mad they cannot shot at them, but that's about to change.

The Article 5 would not stop Ruzzia from invading further Ukraine. So again, your solution of surrendering is not a solution, is a pause so that Ruzzia repairs the army a goes in the offensive again. You must think that people are stupid seriously - what a bunch of non-sense covered in a trillion words.

EDIT: Ruzzia has thrown plenty of troops in Avdiivka. I mean, thrown into a scrapyard literaly. Tens of BMPs an tanks in ashes (with their crews) in one day. The territorial gain has been... 50 meters? Another successful effort in "self-demilitarising" by Ruzzia.

https://youtu.be/emjwRD2nPqU?t=2674

Don't keep us guessing do tell why Israel cut power to Gaza? Are you implying that Israel is trying to reinforce the will of Palestinians? And is US helping Palestinians in their pursuit for freedom, shouldn't Nuland go to Gaza with some freedom cookies?

Ukraine confirms attack on electrical grid in Russia's Kursk region why didn't you tell them what you know about attacking power grids? I think they can afford you by printing as much as you ask

You went from general statement that attacking power grid is "(a) irrelevant to the war effort (b) proven to be inefficient (c) proven to reinforce the will of the people being attacked... zero military effectiveness" then when i provided evidence of other nations doing exactly the same thing, you changed it to: well, every country had its reasons to attack power grids except if that country start with a letter R, has two S's and ends with a letter A.

"But you know, last winter they did it, and here we are so that proves is not effective, rational people would not need further proof."
Oh is that how your idea of how rational people should work? Ukraine tried to take Crimea back last year, and here we are so that proves that such effort is not effective, rational people would not need further proof. You're getting to a full propaganda mode, to the level of a 4th grader.

They will blow up military and economic objectives that really hurt
You think we're already at that stage where even loosing the whole power grid wouldn't hurt Ukraine economically  

Edit:
paxmao position within 3 days:
When Ukraine does it "So yes, a few meters here and there matter, which is the reason why Ukraine is still fighting for 50 meters at the time."
When Russia does it "The territorial gain has been... 50 meters? Another successful effort in "self-demilitarising" by Ruzzia."
Looks like you have completely given up on even any resemblance of objectivity?

[be.open]

The territorial gain has been... 50 meters?

There is now a dense fog of war over Avdeevka, but it seems Russia managed to take the waste heap of the Avdeevka coke plant - this is the dominant height of the entire Avdeevka garrison of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Avdiivka has long been in the pincers of a semi-encirclement, but recent Russian activity has forced Ukraine to transfer additional reserves here, which came under Russian air strikes. It looks like Ukraine has no air defense forces left in Avdiivka; it has been bombed almost continuously for several days.

I think this is a distracting blow, but if Ukraine lost its dominant height in Avdeevka, this is a great success for Russia; this waste heap could not be taken for a year and a half.

[paxmao]

The territorial gain has been... 50 meters?

There is now a dense fog of war over Avdeevka, but it seems Russia managed to take the waste heap of the Avdeevka coke plant - this is the dominant height of the entire Avdeevka garrison of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Avdiivka has long been in the pincers of a semi-encirclement, but recent Russian activity has forced Ukraine to transfer additional reserves here, which came under Russian air strikes. It looks like Ukraine has no air defense forces left in Avdiivka; it has been bombed almost continuously for several days.

I think this is a distracting blow, but if Ukraine lost its dominant height in Avdeevka, this is a great success for Russia; this waste heap could not be taken for a year and a half.

Latest report is 900 Ruzzian armed cannon fodder killed and above 40 tanks lost, more than 40 BMPs and the usual now 20 artillery systems lost - that is in one day and probably not counting everything - there is so much to count across the whole front.... Congratulations on your "victory"... if there is one in those "tactical heights" that you seem to think important enough.

[Pidgeon]

600 days in the war, the trolls are out of food but their mouths are still full of something and chewing in delight!

There is now a dense fog of war over Avdeevka, but it seems Russia managed to take the waste heap of the Avdeevka coke plant

Where is this heap, between Lisbon or Madrid or Washington and NYC, cause for sure you're not going to tell me after 600 days it's still east of Kyiv?

But it will be so much harder on you when Ukraine formally collapses. Do yourself a favor, and ease out of all this useless Ukraine superiority talk.

Wow, Ukraine still has an army? After 597 days after the whole of Europe was conquered and lays in dust kicked by the mighty columns of t-14?

Friends, I would like to remind you that this is a topic about Russia's invasion of Ukraine. For discussion of events in Israel and everything related to it, there are specialized topics. Thanks.

Holy and unholy shit of the afterlife, there is a mod in the P&S!
How much did you piss the thermos seller guy that he made you responsible to clean up the stables of Augean Bitcointalk?
Good luck but I hope you have a serious health plan!

[paxmao]

600 days in the war, the trolls are out of food but their mouths are still full of something and chewing in delight!

There is now a dense fog of war over Avdeevka, but it seems Russia managed to take the waste heap of the Avdeevka coke plant

Where is this heap, between Lisbon or Madrid or Washington and NYC, cause for sure you're not going to tell me after 600 days it's still east of Kyiv?

But it will be so much harder on you when Ukraine formally collapses. Do yourself a favor, and ease out of all this useless Ukraine superiority talk.

Wow, Ukraine still has an army? After 597 days after the whole of Europe was conquered and lays in dust kicked by the mighty columns of t-14?

Friends, I would like to remind you that this is a topic about Russia's invasion of Ukraine. For discussion of events in Israel and everything related to it, there are specialized topics. Thanks.

Holy and unholy shit of the afterlife, there is a mod in the P&S!
How much did you piss the thermos seller guy that he made you responsible to clean up the stables of Augean Bitcointalk?
Good luck but I hope you have a serious health plan!

Easy on them please, they have to live under you-know who.

I am seeing some recent reports of massive shelling, including phosphorous along the north line of Avdiivka, but nothing like Ruzzi Orcs taking the high grounds, more like trying to make sure there is nothing there - in vain, the fortifications in the are are made precisely for that type of attack.

However, Ukranians seem to be doing better than usual in Mykholaivka direction, over a long stretch over the railway line that used to serve as defensive "wall". Among all the Ruzzian "hopium" and claims, it seems that Ukraine sources are optimistic in the south. Let's see if Ruzzia ends up paying this "mass meat & metal" attack failure with a costly Bhakmut or even worse, at Tokmak.

[suchmoon]

I think this is a distracting blow, but if Ukraine lost its dominant height in Avdeevka, this is a great success for Russia; this waste heap could not be taken for a year and a half.

Great success... from May 9 parade in Kyiv to capturing a pile of waste. Whoever is responsible for this great achievement probably needs to avoid airplanes - victorious Russian invaders have a habit of dying in plane crashes.

[be.open]

I think this is a distracting blow, but if Ukraine lost its dominant height in Avdeevka, this is a great success for Russia; this waste heap could not be taken for a year and a half.

Great success... from May 9 parade in Kyiv to capturing a pile of waste. Whoever is responsible for this great achievement probably needs to avoid airplanes - victorious Russian invaders have a habit of dying in plane crashes.

A Russian parade in Kyiv on May 9, 2022 would be a much greater success for Ukraine than its current situation.

[paxmao]

I think this is a distracting blow, but if Ukraine lost its dominant height in Avdeevka, this is a great success for Russia; this waste heap could not be taken for a year and a half.

Great success... from May 9 parade in Kyiv to capturing a pile of waste. Whoever is responsible for this great achievement probably needs to avoid airplanes - victorious Russian invaders have a habit of dying in plane crashes.

A Russian parade in Kyiv on May 9, 2022 would be a much greater success for Ukraine than its current situation.

Ye olde narrative of "Ruzzia (Moscow) being better for Ukraine". Repeat it 1000 times and is still a fallacy like the first time.

[be.open]

I think this is a distracting blow, but if Ukraine lost its dominant height in Avdeevka, this is a great success for Russia; this waste heap could not be taken for a year and a half.

Great success... from May 9 parade in Kyiv to capturing a pile of waste. Whoever is responsible for this great achievement probably needs to avoid airplanes - victorious Russian invaders have a habit of dying in plane crashes.

A Russian parade in Kyiv on May 9, 2022 would be a much greater success for Ukraine than its current situation.

Ye olde narrative of "Ruzzia (Moscow) being better for Ukraine". Repeat it 1000 times and is still a fallacy like the first time.

No one is offering Ukraine to be with Russia; Russia doesn’t need such rotten friends. The point is that maintaining neutrality is much better for Ukraine than fighting with Russia.

[paxmao]

I think this is a distracting blow, but if Ukraine lost its dominant height in Avdeevka, this is a great success for Russia; this waste heap could not be taken for a year and a half.

Great success... from May 9 parade in Kyiv to capturing a pile of waste. Whoever is responsible for this great achievement probably needs to avoid airplanes - victorious Russian invaders have a habit of dying in plane crashes.

A Russian parade in Kyiv on May 9, 2022 would be a much greater success for Ukraine than its current situation.

Ye olde narrative of "Ruzzia (Moscow) being better for Ukraine". Repeat it 1000 times and is still a fallacy like the first time.

No one is offering Ukraine to be with Russia; Russia doesn’t need such rotten friends. The point is that maintaining neutrality is much better for Ukraine than fighting with Russia.

Oh... that's new. I mean, not that you do not want them as "friends" - Ruzzia does not have "friends", what you spoke about is about overtaking Ukraine, changing the government to a puppet like uncle Luka, create two independent states...

And now you speak about neutrality. Ruzzia never wanted "neutrality", Moscow wanted a base in Sebastopol , buffer states a better link to Crimea... but certainly not "neutrality".

...

They probably would like to hire me, they probably cannot pay the price  

1. The Israelis are not cutting supplies for the "war effort". I leave to your imagination (wild mostly) why have they first put 2 million people in a space that can hold 500k, then limit their movement, control their food, their water, every aspect of their lives and, after the Hamas attack, cut essential life supplies -  but I can tell you is not to achieve military objectives nor to diminish the "military production" of the Gaza strip.

2. The US army and NATO had plenty of military means to spare, if they were limited, they would not have given any priority to the grid for many reasons: (a) It is simply a infrastructure that easy to replace and repair and difficult to destroy beyond repair (particularly with the "precision" of the Ruzzian missiles). (b) Ukraine is too large for that strategy to be effective (c) the military production is mostly done outside Ukraine.

But you know, last winter they did it, and here we are so that proves is not effective, rational people would not need further proof.

For everything else you say, you are wrong. The Ukraine is not going to attack the RF grid with ATACAMS, as they are not doing so with Stormshadow, because they are not as stupid as the RF military and would rather not waste what they have. They will blow up military and economic objectives that really hurt - multi-million oil infrastructure, logistic hubs, we. They can see them thanks to "the gospel" from the sky and the massive infiltration behind Ruzzian lines. They are quite mad they cannot shot at them, but that's about to change.

The Article 5 would not stop Ruzzia from invading further Ukraine. So again, your solution of surrendering is not a solution, is a pause so that Ruzzia repairs the army a goes in the offensive again. You must think that people are stupid seriously - what a bunch of non-sense covered in a trillion words.

EDIT: Ruzzia has thrown plenty of troops in Avdiivka. I mean, thrown into a scrapyard literaly. Tens of BMPs an tanks in ashes (with their crews) in one day. The territorial gain has been... 50 meters? Another successful effort in "self-demilitarising" by Ruzzia.

https://youtu.be/emjwRD2nPqU?t=2674

Don't keep us guessing do tell why Israel cut power to Gaza? Are you implying that Israel is trying to reinforce the will of Palestinians? And is US helping Palestinians in their pursuit for freedom, shouldn't Nuland go to Gaza with some freedom cookies?

Ukraine confirms attack on electrical grid in Russia's Kursk region why didn't you tell them what you know about attacking power grids? I think they can afford you by printing as much as you ask

You went from general statement that attacking power grid is "(a) irrelevant to the war effort (b) proven to be inefficient (c) proven to reinforce the will of the people being attacked... zero military effectiveness" then when i provided evidence of other nations doing exactly the same thing, you changed it to: well, every country had its reasons to attack power grids except if that country start with a letter R, has two S's and ends with a letter A.

"But you know, last winter they did it, and here we are so that proves is not effective, rational people would not need further proof."
Oh is that how your idea of how rational people should work? Ukraine tried to take Crimea back last year, and here we are so that proves that such effort is not effective, rational people would not need further proof. You're getting to a full propaganda mode, to the level of a 4th grader.

They will blow up military and economic objectives that really hurt
You think we're already at that stage where even loosing the whole power grid wouldn't hurt Ukraine economically  

Edit:
paxmao position within 3 days:
When Ukraine does it "So yes, a few meters here and there matter, which is the reason why Ukraine is still fighting for 50 meters at the time."
When Russia does it "The territorial gain has been... 50 meters? Another successful effort in "self-demilitarising" by Ruzzia."
Looks like you have completely given up on even any resemblance of objectivity?

I think is very clear: If you loose what seems to be above 100 tanks / vehicles in two days and advance 50 meters (quite different from what Ukraine is doing), you may want to reconsider your strategy, but hey look, go for it, keep on!

Keep you guessing what? Palestinians do not want to fight - Hamas is not "Palestinians", they did not even get a majority vote!! You put lost of people in a small space, cut water and food and bomb it. What is there to guess??

No, it is actually how people use logic, and is not 4th grade. They tried attacking the grid and Ukraine come out stronger, strategy is wrong.

[be.open]

I think this is a distracting blow, but if Ukraine lost its dominant height in Avdeevka, this is a great success for Russia; this waste heap could not be taken for a year and a half.

Great success... from May 9 parade in Kyiv to capturing a pile of waste. Whoever is responsible for this great achievement probably needs to avoid airplanes - victorious Russian invaders have a habit of dying in plane crashes.

A Russian parade in Kyiv on May 9, 2022 would be a much greater success for Ukraine than its current situation.

Ye olde narrative of "Ruzzia (Moscow) being better for Ukraine". Repeat it 1000 times and is still a fallacy like the first time.

No one is offering Ukraine to be with Russia; Russia doesn’t need such rotten friends. The point is that maintaining neutrality is much better for Ukraine than fighting with Russia.

Oh... that's new. I mean, not that you do not want them as "friends" - Ruzzia does not have "friends", what you spoke about is about overtaking Ukraine, changing the government to a puppet like uncle Luka, create two independent states...

And now you speak about neutrality. Ruzzia never wanted "neutrality", Moscow wanted a base in Sebastopol , buffer states a better link to Crimea... but certainly not "neutrality".

Seriously? It seems that you are so passionate about fueling this armed conflict that you don’t even know the main condition for ending it. Neutrality, a constitutionally enshrined non-bloc status - this is what Russia needs from Ukraine.

[tvbcof]

...
Ye olde narrative of "Ruzzia (Moscow) being better for Ukraine". Repeat it 1000 times and is still a fallacy like the first time.

No one is offering Ukraine to be with Russia; Russia doesn’t need such rotten friends. The point is that maintaining neutrality is much better for Ukraine than fighting with Russia.

I could see early on what a fool's errand it was for Russia to have much to do with most of Ukraine, and certainly to occupy said parts.  And I stated it here on this board in my prediction that Russia wouldn't do much in the central and Eastern parts.  If/when necessary the Russians might mow the lawn in those parts, but sticking around any longer than necessary would be pointless and threaten to spread the blight.  It did take me a long time to comprehend and accept the depths to which the Ukrainian people sunk and I'm still trying to get my head around it.  How much of that depth was achieved since 2014 under the care and feeding of Nuland and her Neocons is unknown to me.

[paxmao]

I think this is a distracting blow, but if Ukraine lost its dominant height in Avdeevka, this is a great success for Russia; this waste heap could not be taken for a year and a half.

Great success... from May 9 parade in Kyiv to capturing a pile of waste. Whoever is responsible for this great achievement probably needs to avoid airplanes - victorious Russian invaders have a habit of dying in plane crashes.

A Russian parade in Kyiv on May 9, 2022 would be a much greater success for Ukraine than its current situation.

Ye olde narrative of "Ruzzia (Moscow) being better for Ukraine". Repeat it 1000 times and is still a fallacy like the first time.

No one is offering Ukraine to be with Russia; Russia doesn’t need such rotten friends. The point is that maintaining neutrality is much better for Ukraine than fighting with Russia.

Oh... that's new. I mean, not that you do not want them as "friends" - Ruzzia does not have "friends", what you spoke about is about overtaking Ukraine, changing the government to a puppet like uncle Luka, create two independent states...

And now you speak about neutrality. Ruzzia never wanted "neutrality", Moscow wanted a base in Sebastopol , buffer states a better link to Crimea... but certainly not "neutrality".

Seriously? It seems that you are so passionate about fueling this armed conflict that you don’t even know the main condition for ending it. Neutrality, a constitutionally enshrined non-bloc status - this is what Russia needs from Ukraine.

Ahhh, so I am passionate about the conflict while you little Ruzzi Trolls just want peace? Like when you post...

...
Otto von Bismarck once said:

Do not expect that once you take advantage of Russia's weakness, you will receive dividends forever. Russians always come for their money. And when they come - do not rely on the Jesuit agreements you signed, supposedly justifying you. They are not worth the paper they are written on. Therefore, it is worth either playing fair with the Russians, or not playing at all.

...
Yep, the deputies of the State Duma adopted in the third reading a law that they didn’t even read (they had less than an hour to get acquainted with the voluminous package of amendments).

I think that in Russia in the foreseeable future there will be a second wave of partial mobilization, and for Ukraine this is bad news. There will be no peace talks, there is no one to negotiate with. Ukraine will suffer a military defeat.

Nice smile you have when others are sent to die... very "passionate".

Meanwhile, there are rumors, which I can neither confirm nor deny, that as a result of one of the missile strikes, Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Zaluzhny was eliminated. At least he hasn't appeared in public for about a month. Perhaps this is one of the reasons for the delay of the Ukrainian counteroffensive.

Well... you are clearly a pacifist, I will not bother to copy here all the "military" reports, the jokes about missiles hitting Ukraine and the chanting of "victories".

It happens the same with Putler..., there is a little "trust" issue you know? Is like if one gets the feeling that he is mostly bullshiting in any international declaration? .

I am just going to quote myself on this one:

...
Examples: "I am not going to invade Ukraine". Then I declare that the bit of Ukraine I am going to invade is not Ukraine, thus all is as I said.
"This is just a military exercise in our border, it is just a coincidence that Ukraine is near", then the exercise becomes an attack.
"This is about the safety of Europe", and then I start a war in Europe.
...

There have been two previous agreements with the Moscowians that have been broken. The story would be more like signing a neutrality agreement (which Ukraine does not have to, it is their right to choose not Putler's), but then, Ruzzia rearms and re-stocks, decides that Ukraine is not "neutral enough" and then ... another land grab.

By now, everyone has figured out that Putin wants to rebuild the USSR... but Kleptocrat style.

[LTU_btc]

I think is very clear: If you loose what seems to be above 100 tanks / vehicles in two days and advance 50 meters (quite different from what Ukraine is doing), you may want to reconsider your strategy, but hey look, go for it, keep on!

That's the logic here. When Russia lose huge number of tanks, armoured vehicles and I'm not even talking about human power just in few days and advance by something like 50 metres, there is a reason for them to brag about it.
But when Ukraine advance by 50 metres in Southern direction, then it's failed counteroffensive.
And when I see whole colones of Russian tanks getting destroyed near to Avdiivka, it looks that Russia haven't learned anything since the beginning of war when we saw same things in Kyiv direction.

[tvbcof]

The fierce resistance of the Ukrainians has beaten the Russians off the hill in Avdivka, and the gotten Ukraine in solid control of the chemical plant.  Also, Russian  progress on the South of the bottlneck has been halted by valiant resistance allowing the possibility for transport to support the city in spite of those bad bad Ruskies throwing everything they have at it.  Yes, it's not a perfectly safe road, but the Ukrainians are super tough and can handle the transit issues.

There is a real possibility of keeping Avdivka if the Ukroids just put in a few more forces...then a few more...and a few more.  It's like Artimosk (formerly Bakhmut), but in that case the Ukrainians just didn't quite do enough.  If they don't make the same mistake in Avdivka the tide will turn and then it's just a couple of small hops to take back Crimea!

---

Seriously, there is no way to explain the 10/1 loss ratio without the Ukrainian (((leadership))) itself being in on the plan.  That's the only thing I can see that makes any sense to me militarily.  As for the Russians, it will be interesting to see if they open up the new territories for blond hair'd blue eye'd 'Jewish' Israeli refugees who choose to evacuate from the promised (to be a hell-hole) lands.

[DaRude]

I think this is a distracting blow, but if Ukraine lost its dominant height in Avdeevka, this is a great success for Russia; this waste heap could not be taken for a year and a half.

Great success... from May 9 parade in Kyiv to capturing a pile of waste. Whoever is responsible for this great achievement probably needs to avoid airplanes - victorious Russian invaders have a habit of dying in plane crashes.

A Russian parade in Kyiv on May 9, 2022 would be a much greater success for Ukraine than its current situation.

Ye olde narrative of "Ruzzia (Moscow) being better for Ukraine". Repeat it 1000 times and is still a fallacy like the first time.

No one is offering Ukraine to be with Russia; Russia doesn’t need such rotten friends. The point is that maintaining neutrality is much better for Ukraine than fighting with Russia.

Oh... that's new. I mean, not that you do not want them as "friends" - Ruzzia does not have "friends", what you spoke about is about overtaking Ukraine, changing the government to a puppet like uncle Luka, create two independent states...

And now you speak about neutrality. Ruzzia never wanted "neutrality", Moscow wanted a base in Sebastopol , buffer states a better link to Crimea... but certainly not "neutrality".

...

They probably would like to hire me, they probably cannot pay the price  

1. The Israelis are not cutting supplies for the "war effort". I leave to your imagination (wild mostly) why have they first put 2 million people in a space that can hold 500k, then limit their movement, control their food, their water, every aspect of their lives and, after the Hamas attack, cut essential life supplies -  but I can tell you is not to achieve military objectives nor to diminish the "military production" of the Gaza strip.

2. The US army and NATO had plenty of military means to spare, if they were limited, they would not have given any priority to the grid for many reasons: (a) It is simply a infrastructure that easy to replace and repair and difficult to destroy beyond repair (particularly with the "precision" of the Ruzzian missiles). (b) Ukraine is too large for that strategy to be effective (c) the military production is mostly done outside Ukraine.

But you know, last winter they did it, and here we are so that proves is not effective, rational people would not need further proof.

For everything else you say, you are wrong. The Ukraine is not going to attack the RF grid with ATACAMS, as they are not doing so with Stormshadow, because they are not as stupid as the RF military and would rather not waste what they have. They will blow up military and economic objectives that really hurt - multi-million oil infrastructure, logistic hubs, we. They can see them thanks to "the gospel" from the sky and the massive infiltration behind Ruzzian lines. They are quite mad they cannot shot at them, but that's about to change.

The Article 5 would not stop Ruzzia from invading further Ukraine. So again, your solution of surrendering is not a solution, is a pause so that Ruzzia repairs the army a goes in the offensive again. You must think that people are stupid seriously - what a bunch of non-sense covered in a trillion words.

EDIT: Ruzzia has thrown plenty of troops in Avdiivka. I mean, thrown into a scrapyard literaly. Tens of BMPs an tanks in ashes (with their crews) in one day. The territorial gain has been... 50 meters? Another successful effort in "self-demilitarising" by Ruzzia.

https://youtu.be/emjwRD2nPqU?t=2674

Don't keep us guessing do tell why Israel cut power to Gaza? Are you implying that Israel is trying to reinforce the will of Palestinians? And is US helping Palestinians in their pursuit for freedom, shouldn't Nuland go to Gaza with some freedom cookies?

Ukraine confirms attack on electrical grid in Russia's Kursk region why didn't you tell them what you know about attacking power grids? I think they can afford you by printing as much as you ask

You went from general statement that attacking power grid is "(a) irrelevant to the war effort (b) proven to be inefficient (c) proven to reinforce the will of the people being attacked... zero military effectiveness" then when i provided evidence of other nations doing exactly the same thing, you changed it to: well, every country had its reasons to attack power grids except if that country start with a letter R, has two S's and ends with a letter A.

"But you know, last winter they did it, and here we are so that proves is not effective, rational people would not need further proof."
Oh is that how your idea of how rational people should work? Ukraine tried to take Crimea back last year, and here we are so that proves that such effort is not effective, rational people would not need further proof. You're getting to a full propaganda mode, to the level of a 4th grader.

They will blow up military and economic objectives that really hurt
You think we're already at that stage where even loosing the whole power grid wouldn't hurt Ukraine economically  

Edit:
paxmao position within 3 days:
When Ukraine does it "So yes, a few meters here and there matter, which is the reason why Ukraine is still fighting for 50 meters at the time."
When Russia does it "The territorial gain has been... 50 meters? Another successful effort in "self-demilitarising" by Ruzzia."
Looks like you have completely given up on even any resemblance of objectivity?

I think is very clear: If you loose what seems to be above 100 tanks / vehicles in two days and advance 50 meters (quite different from what Ukraine is doing), you may want to reconsider your strategy, but hey look, go for it, keep on!

Keep you guessing what? Palestinians do not want to fight - Hamas is not "Palestinians", they did not even get a majority vote!! You put lost of people in a small space, cut water and food and bomb it. What is there to guess??

No, it is actually how people use logic, and is not 4th grade. They tried attacking the grid and Ukraine come out stronger, strategy is wrong.

I think everyone already knows you position on any movement of the front line, it can be summarized in: if Ukraine takes 50meteres they're grinding into Russian defenses and breaking Russia's back, whenever Russia takes 50meters they're suicidal because they suffered X losses and will run out of Y any minute now. But if you're going to make up numbers at least make them up for both sides so that your targeted audience can make a comparison and draw your intended conclusions. As taking 50meters is worth it even if you lost X if your opponent gave up 50 meters AND looses more than X. So at least claim that Russia gained 50meter while loosing 100.000 tanks WHILE Ukraine only suffered one minor injury to a trigger finger quickly fixed by a band-aid. Then at least people can properly compare based on your made up numbers.

As far as Palestinians surely even you must see the irony there, they were promised a two state solution with independent State of Palestine. How much is US/Europe/World really cared about their rights? Apparently even starvation of a city with a population of 2MM+ where around 50% is under 16yrs old is a fair game now   But of course US really really cares about the state of democracy in Ukraine

[paxmao]

I think this is a distracting blow, but if Ukraine lost its dominant height in Avdeevka, this is a great success for Russia; this waste heap could not be taken for a year and a half.

Great success... from May 9 parade in Kyiv to capturing a pile of waste. Whoever is responsible for this great achievement probably needs to avoid airplanes - victorious Russian invaders have a habit of dying in plane crashes.

A Russian parade in Kyiv on May 9, 2022 would be a much greater success for Ukraine than its current situation.

Ye olde narrative of "Ruzzia (Moscow) being better for Ukraine". Repeat it 1000 times and is still a fallacy like the first time.

No one is offering Ukraine to be with Russia; Russia doesn’t need such rotten friends. The point is that maintaining neutrality is much better for Ukraine than fighting with Russia.

Oh... that's new. I mean, not that you do not want them as "friends" - Ruzzia does not have "friends", what you spoke about is about overtaking Ukraine, changing the government to a puppet like uncle Luka, create two independent states...

And now you speak about neutrality. Ruzzia never wanted "neutrality", Moscow wanted a base in Sebastopol , buffer states a better link to Crimea... but certainly not "neutrality".

...

They probably would like to hire me, they probably cannot pay the price  

1. The Israelis are not cutting supplies for the "war effort". I leave to your imagination (wild mostly) why have they first put 2 million people in a space that can hold 500k, then limit their movement, control their food, their water, every aspect of their lives and, after the Hamas attack, cut essential life supplies -  but I can tell you is not to achieve military objectives nor to diminish the "military production" of the Gaza strip.

2. The US army and NATO had plenty of military means to spare, if they were limited, they would not have given any priority to the grid for many reasons: (a) It is simply a infrastructure that easy to replace and repair and difficult to destroy beyond repair (particularly with the "precision" of the Ruzzian missiles). (b) Ukraine is too large for that strategy to be effective (c) the military production is mostly done outside Ukraine.

But you know, last winter they did it, and here we are so that proves is not effective, rational people would not need further proof.

For everything else you say, you are wrong. The Ukraine is not going to attack the RF grid with ATACAMS, as they are not doing so with Stormshadow, because they are not as stupid as the RF military and would rather not waste what they have. They will blow up military and economic objectives that really hurt - multi-million oil infrastructure, logistic hubs, we. They can see them thanks to "the gospel" from the sky and the massive infiltration behind Ruzzian lines. They are quite mad they cannot shot at them, but that's about to change.

The Article 5 would not stop Ruzzia from invading further Ukraine. So again, your solution of surrendering is not a solution, is a pause so that Ruzzia repairs the army a goes in the offensive again. You must think that people are stupid seriously - what a bunch of non-sense covered in a trillion words.

EDIT: Ruzzia has thrown plenty of troops in Avdiivka. I mean, thrown into a scrapyard literaly. Tens of BMPs an tanks in ashes (with their crews) in one day. The territorial gain has been... 50 meters? Another successful effort in "self-demilitarising" by Ruzzia.

https://youtu.be/emjwRD2nPqU?t=2674

Don't keep us guessing do tell why Israel cut power to Gaza? Are you implying that Israel is trying to reinforce the will of Palestinians? And is US helping Palestinians in their pursuit for freedom, shouldn't Nuland go to Gaza with some freedom cookies?

Ukraine confirms attack on electrical grid in Russia's Kursk region why didn't you tell them what you know about attacking power grids? I think they can afford you by printing as much as you ask

You went from general statement that attacking power grid is "(a) irrelevant to the war effort (b) proven to be inefficient (c) proven to reinforce the will of the people being attacked... zero military effectiveness" then when i provided evidence of other nations doing exactly the same thing, you changed it to: well, every country had its reasons to attack power grids except if that country start with a letter R, has two S's and ends with a letter A.

"But you know, last winter they did it, and here we are so that proves is not effective, rational people would not need further proof."
Oh is that how your idea of how rational people should work? Ukraine tried to take Crimea back last year, and here we are so that proves that such effort is not effective, rational people would not need further proof. You're getting to a full propaganda mode, to the level of a 4th grader.

They will blow up military and economic objectives that really hurt
You think we're already at that stage where even loosing the whole power grid wouldn't hurt Ukraine economically  

Edit:
paxmao position within 3 days:
When Ukraine does it "So yes, a few meters here and there matter, which is the reason why Ukraine is still fighting for 50 meters at the time."
When Russia does it "The territorial gain has been... 50 meters? Another successful effort in "self-demilitarising" by Ruzzia."
Looks like you have completely given up on even any resemblance of objectivity?

I think is very clear: If you loose what seems to be above 100 tanks / vehicles in two days and advance 50 meters (quite different from what Ukraine is doing), you may want to reconsider your strategy, but hey look, go for it, keep on!

Keep you guessing what? Palestinians do not want to fight - Hamas is not "Palestinians", they did not even get a majority vote!! You put lost of people in a small space, cut water and food and bomb it. What is there to guess??

No, it is actually how people use logic, and is not 4th grade. They tried attacking the grid and Ukraine come out stronger, strategy is wrong.

I think everyone already knows you position on any movement of the front line, it can be summarized in: if Ukraine takes 50meteres they're grinding into Russian defenses and breaking Russia's back, whenever Russia takes 50meters they're suicidal because they suffered X losses and will run out of Y any minute now. But if you're going to make up numbers at least make them up for both sides so that your targeted audience can make a comparison and draw your intended conclusions. As taking 50meters is worth it even if you lost X if your opponent gave up 50 meters AND looses more than X. So at least claim that Russia gained 50meter while loosing 100.000 tanks WHILE Ukraine only suffered one minor injury to a trigger finger quickly fixed by a band-aid. Then at least people can properly compare based on your made up numbers.

As far as Palestinians surely even you must see the irony there, they were promised a two state solution with independent State of Palestine. How much is US/Europe/World really cared about their rights? Apparently even starvation of a city with a population of 2MM+ where around 50% is under 16yrs old is a fair game now   But of course US really really cares about the state of democracy in Ukraine

Look, you often try to speak on behalf of "everyone" or try to somehow attack the messenger. You are just a little troll, you do not get to speak on behalf of "everyone" and if anyone bothers to read your walls of text will find that your arguments are mostly misleading, do not address the core of the question and seldom if ever provide any supporting arguments.

Ruzzia is throwing everything at Avdiivka and there is nothing to show for it. There is no way you text yourself out of that. There have at this point battalion size losses on three days. As said, go for it, keep at it, more meat please, the grinder is hot and working 110%.

[LTU_btc]

Ukraine finally received ATACMS missiles and they already used it in attacks on Russian air bases in occupied Luhansk and Berdyansk. And seems attacks were successful, significant amount of helicopters and jets were destroyed or damaged. Z channels is already crying about it.
https://t.me/fighter_bomber/14410
https://t.me/Ukraine_365News/64322

[BADecker]

I admire the resolve of Russia. At this stage, if it were me, I would have used nukes long ago. But Russia is for the salvation of the world rather than the destruction of it.