Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress]

[paxmao]

Some of the latest news coverage. Is there anyone left who still doesn't see where all of this is going?

...

And now Israel will be competing for resources, funds, intel satellite time etc... Politicians will act surprised and will be convincing people that no one could've possibly predicted such outcome, blame games will ensure, and everything will be done to prevent Ukrainians from even questioning any of this

My appraisal of where is this going is that Iran has done a favour to Ukraine. If there were some GOP members playing with the idea of reducing the support to Ukraine, they may be quite convinced now that "playing soft" gets their Israeli brothers killed (Hamas is an Iran proxy). Israel is unlikely to need much "resources" other than their usual sources - the Jewish community of US, UK,...

Riiiight, I'm sure Zelenskyy is very happy that the world has another war to occupy front pages and attention of already war fatigued world audience. What's next from your "whatever happens is good for Ukraine because..." narrative, how great would it be for Ukraine if China attacked Taiwan now? Then all of those Republicans would surely forget about their home audience and Trump would personally send more money to Ukraine? No, what be good for Ukraine if it's just a one day event, everything calms down and everyone could forget about Israel in a week, so Zelenskyy can get his news coverage back, Israel wont require more funds, worlds eye ball time, Ukraine's lobby in US won't have to compete with Israel's lobby, and Ukraine won't be covered as that "old" war.

Riiiight, when I do not have an argument I just whattabout and call stuff "a narrative", when you actually are delivering mostly narrative. The fact is that what I have said remains: GOP does have links to Israel, Iran is an ally of Ruzzia and this may actually be helpful for these Republicans and for the general public of the US who do not really know where Ukraine is in a map, but they have heard plenty about Iran.

So just a question of making sure they add 2 plus 2 and notice that they, personally, are in danger from this coalition. There are axis forming and Iran is with Ruzzia.

If China attacked Taiwan we would be closer to WW III, so negative for the entire population of the world, who likely would suffer very acute effects.

Some of the latest news coverage. Is there anyone left who still doesn't see where all of this is going?

...

And now Israel will be competing for resources, funds, intel satellite time etc... Politicians will act surprised and will be convincing people that no one could've possibly predicted such outcome, blame games will ensure, and everything will be done to prevent Ukrainians from even questioning any of this

My appraisal of where is this going is that Iran has done a favour to Ukraine. If there were some GOP members playing with the idea of reducing the support to Ukraine, they may be quite convinced now that "playing soft" gets their Israeli brothers killed (Hamas is an Iran proxy). Israel is unlikely to need much "resources" other than their usual sources - the Jewish community of US, UK,...

No, Hezbollah is Iran proxy, not Hamas.
Iran is Shiite, Hezbollah is Shiite, Hamas is Sunni...without Israel in picture, they actually hate each other

...

I am going to try to believe you but it is going to be difficult if you keep publishing links to "cultural organisations"

https://www.iranintl.com/en/202201038619

Yes that is what they say, but also in the same sentence...

Iran Funded Hamas Missiles With $70 Million, Haniyeh Says
Monday, 01/03/2022
Middle East - Persian Gulf
Iran
Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh has revealed that the Iran paid a total of $70 million to the Palestinian group to help it develop missiles and defense systems.

During an interview with Al-Jazeera Haniyeh said different countries help in financing the group, but Iran is the biggest donor.
...

He said that Hamas is not fighting a proxy war for Iran, stressing they are in it together against “the common Israeli enemy.”

Sure, you just get $70M (which is likely to be a gross understatement) but you are not a proxy.

[Branko]

Sure, you just get $70M (which is likely to be a gross understatement) but you are not a proxy.

And if some country provide you with 120 BILLION, using your logic, what are you to them?

[Xal0lex]

Friends, I would like to remind you that this is a topic about Russia's invasion of Ukraine. For discussion of events in Israel and everything related to it, there are specialized topics. Thanks.

[paxmao]

Sure, you just get $70M (which is likely to be a gross understatement) but you are not a proxy.

And if some country provide you with 120 BILLION, using your logic, what are you to them?

Using my logic, you are an ally - Ukraine did not attack Ruzzia, however the point stays: you have said Hamas is not a proxy for Iran, but it clearly seems to be.

The Ukrainian conflict is much more straightforward than the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, which is something that has not been resolved in... 70 years now?. The growth model of the current Ruzzia is grabbing natural resources - they have nothing else to offer to the world (well, also overhyped arms that rarely deliver to their claims) - they will permanently be involved in anyplace where they can "grab".

edit:

Friends, I would like to remind you that this is a topic about Russia's invasion of Ukraine. For discussion of events in Israel and everything related to it, there are specialized topics. Thanks.

I do not discuss that conflict, just the possible effect in the Ruzzian attack on Ukraine, similarities,... I think that Israel and the conflicts around are very difficult to make sense of.

[Branko]

Sure, you just get $70M (which is likely to be a gross understatement) but you are not a proxy.

And if some country provide you with 120 BILLION, using your logic, what are you to them?

Using my logic, you are an ally - Ukraine did not attack Ruzzia, however the point stays: you have said Hamas is not a proxy for Iran, but it clearly seems to be.

The Ukrainian conflict is much more straightforward than the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, which is something that has not been resolved in... 70 years now?. The growth model of the current Ruzzia is grabbing natural resources - they have nothing else to offer to the world (well, also overhyped arms that rarely deliver to their claims) - they will permanently be involved in anyplace where they can "grab".

70 years is nothing...Ukrainian conflict is going on for 1000+ years

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Ukraine

[BADecker]

Includes Youtube video.

Putin Sends 'Gods Of War' To Wipe Out Ukrainian Troops In Bakhmut | Watch Dramatic Battle - https://www.freedomsphoenix.com/News/351877-2023-10-08-putin-sends-gods-of-war-to-wipe-out-ukrainian-troops.htm

Fierce battles are underway in Bakhmut. The Russian defence ministry released a video footage of 'Gods Of War' entering the battlefield as Ukraine claimed gains in Eastern region. Meanwhile, Russia also claimed to have wiped out nearly 4000 Ukrainian troops, HIMARS, Uragan and Olkha rockets, over 300 drones in the past week. Watch for more updates from the Russia-Ukraine conflict zone

----------

[paxmao]

Includes Youtube video.
...
Fierce battles are underway in Bakhmut.

----------

Are you aware that there have been attacks and counterattacks in the area for the last 16 months? There is no combat inside the city itself, the artillery has been there for quite a while and Ukrainians are pressing on the north and south to avoid direct urban conflict.

So far, HIMARS + drones are being extremely effective in dealing with Ruzzian artillery... nearly 25 pieces a day, and some of them are not Soviet era shit.

BTW I recently read that Abrams tanks are already in Ukraine. Still in time for the summer "party" -  all Ruzzian T-55. T-60, T-72, T-80 and T-90 are invited. It seems that the fabulous Armata has declined the invitation for technical reasons.

[DaRude]

Some of the latest news coverage. Is there anyone left who still doesn't see where all of this is going?

...

And now Israel will be competing for resources, funds, intel satellite time etc... Politicians will act surprised and will be convincing people that no one could've possibly predicted such outcome, blame games will ensure, and everything will be done to prevent Ukrainians from even questioning any of this

My appraisal of where is this going is that Iran has done a favour to Ukraine. If there were some GOP members playing with the idea of reducing the support to Ukraine, they may be quite convinced now that "playing soft" gets their Israeli brothers killed (Hamas is an Iran proxy). Israel is unlikely to need much "resources" other than their usual sources - the Jewish community of US, UK,...

Riiiight, I'm sure Zelenskyy is very happy that the world has another war to occupy front pages and attention of already war fatigued world audience. What's next from your "whatever happens is good for Ukraine because..." narrative, how great would it be for Ukraine if China attacked Taiwan now? Then all of those Republicans would surely forget about their home audience and Trump would personally send more money to Ukraine? No, what be good for Ukraine if it's just a one day event, everything calms down and everyone could forget about Israel in a week, so Zelenskyy can get his news coverage back, Israel wont require more funds, worlds eye ball time, Ukraine's lobby in US won't have to compete with Israel's lobby, and Ukraine won't be covered as that "old" war.

Riiiight, when I do not have an argument I just whattabout and call stuff "a narrative", when you actually are delivering mostly narrative. The fact is that what I have said remains: GOP does have links to Israel, Iran is an ally of Ruzzia and this may actually be helpful for these Republicans and for the general public of the US who do not really know where Ukraine is in a map, but they have heard plenty about Iran.

So just a question of making sure they add 2 plus 2 and notice that they, personally, are in danger from this coalition. There are axis forming and Iran is with Ruzzia.

If China attacked Taiwan we would be closer to WW III, so negative for the entire population of the world, who likely would suffer very acute effects.

...

Yes yes, we all realize that there are no absolutes, and instead of even attempting to be objective your whole purpose seems to be to put a positive spin on everything, totally disregarding the other 99% effects of the event and how ridiculous that makes you sound.



PS: And look up definition of whataboutism before using it

Edit:

Regarding Israel 'unlikely to need much "resources"'

In addition, the United States government will be rapidly providing the Israel Defense Forces with additional equipment and resources, including munitions. The first security assistance will begin moving today and arriving in the coming days.

Oh yes, what great news for Ukraine   see how silly you sounded, didn't even take a day.

[BADecker]

Includes Youtube video.
...
Fierce battles are underway in Bakhmut.

----------

Are you aware that there have been attacks and counterattacks in the area for the last 16 months? There is no combat inside the city itself, the artillery has been there for quite a while and Ukrainians are pressing on the north and south to avoid direct urban conflict.

So far, HIMARS + drones are being extremely effective in dealing with Ruzzian artillery... nearly 25 pieces a day, and some of them are not Soviet era shit.

BTW I recently read that Abrams tanks are already in Ukraine. Still in time for the summer "party" -  all Ruzzian T-55. T-60, T-72, T-80 and T-90 are invited. It seems that the fabulous Armata has declined the invitation for technical reasons.

Lol. Russia sorta chuckles at talk like you spout. Watch the video, above. Then this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VguAC04iDA. Listen to what the US military guys are talking about, what's really going on. Of course, you need to have hope. We all do. But it will be so much harder on you when Ukraine formally collapses. Do yourself a favor, and ease out of all this useless Ukraine superiority talk.

[paxmao]

Some of the latest news coverage. Is there anyone left who still doesn't see where all of this is going?

...

And now Israel will be competing for resources, funds, intel satellite time etc... Politicians will act surprised and will be convincing people that no one could've possibly predicted such outcome, blame games will ensure, and everything will be done to prevent Ukrainians from even questioning any of this

My appraisal of where is this going is that Iran has done a favour to Ukraine. If there were some GOP members playing with the idea of reducing the support to Ukraine, they may be quite convinced now that "playing soft" gets their Israeli brothers killed (Hamas is an Iran proxy). Israel is unlikely to need much "resources" other than their usual sources - the Jewish community of US, UK,...

Riiiight, I'm sure Zelenskyy is very happy that the world has another war to occupy front pages and attention of already war fatigued world audience. What's next from your "whatever happens is good for Ukraine because..." narrative, how great would it be for Ukraine if China attacked Taiwan now? Then all of those Republicans would surely forget about their home audience and Trump would personally send more money to Ukraine? No, what be good for Ukraine if it's just a one day event, everything calms down and everyone could forget about Israel in a week, so Zelenskyy can get his news coverage back, Israel wont require more funds, worlds eye ball time, Ukraine's lobby in US won't have to compete with Israel's lobby, and Ukraine won't be covered as that "old" war.

Riiiight, when I do not have an argument I just whattabout and call stuff "a narrative", when you actually are delivering mostly narrative. The fact is that what I have said remains: GOP does have links to Israel, Iran is an ally of Ruzzia and this may actually be helpful for these Republicans and for the general public of the US who do not really know where Ukraine is in a map, but they have heard plenty about Iran.

So just a question of making sure they add 2 plus 2 and notice that they, personally, are in danger from this coalition. There are axis forming and Iran is with Ruzzia.

If China attacked Taiwan we would be closer to WW III, so negative for the entire population of the world, who likely would suffer very acute effects.

...

Yes yes, we all realize that there are no absolutes, and instead of even attempting to be objective your whole purpose seems to be to put a positive spin on everything, totally disregarding the other 99% effects of the event and how ridiculous that makes you sound.

...
PS: And look up definition of whataboutism before using it

Edit:

Regarding Israel 'unlikely to need much "resources"'

In addition, the United States government will be rapidly providing the Israel Defense Forces with additional equipment and resources, including munitions. The first security assistance will begin moving today and arriving in the coming days.

Oh yes, what great news for Ukraine   see how silly you sounded, didn't even take a day.

So you are trying to correct my positive spin by putting a negative spin on everything? If you are counting on any kind of opposite poles attraction, I here and now shall discourage you in full - it is not BAdeker's Gods will. Now, after now being accused of being xenofobic towards sub-atomic particles with spins other than mine, back to serious topics in my next update.

[DaRude]

Some of the latest news coverage. Is there anyone left who still doesn't see where all of this is going?

...

And now Israel will be competing for resources, funds, intel satellite time etc... Politicians will act surprised and will be convincing people that no one could've possibly predicted such outcome, blame games will ensure, and everything will be done to prevent Ukrainians from even questioning any of this

My appraisal of where is this going is that Iran has done a favour to Ukraine. If there were some GOP members playing with the idea of reducing the support to Ukraine, they may be quite convinced now that "playing soft" gets their Israeli brothers killed (Hamas is an Iran proxy). Israel is unlikely to need much "resources" other than their usual sources - the Jewish community of US, UK,...

Riiiight, I'm sure Zelenskyy is very happy that the world has another war to occupy front pages and attention of already war fatigued world audience. What's next from your "whatever happens is good for Ukraine because..." narrative, how great would it be for Ukraine if China attacked Taiwan now? Then all of those Republicans would surely forget about their home audience and Trump would personally send more money to Ukraine? No, what be good for Ukraine if it's just a one day event, everything calms down and everyone could forget about Israel in a week, so Zelenskyy can get his news coverage back, Israel wont require more funds, worlds eye ball time, Ukraine's lobby in US won't have to compete with Israel's lobby, and Ukraine won't be covered as that "old" war.

Riiiight, when I do not have an argument I just whattabout and call stuff "a narrative", when you actually are delivering mostly narrative. The fact is that what I have said remains: GOP does have links to Israel, Iran is an ally of Ruzzia and this may actually be helpful for these Republicans and for the general public of the US who do not really know where Ukraine is in a map, but they have heard plenty about Iran.

So just a question of making sure they add 2 plus 2 and notice that they, personally, are in danger from this coalition. There are axis forming and Iran is with Ruzzia.

If China attacked Taiwan we would be closer to WW III, so negative for the entire population of the world, who likely would suffer very acute effects.

...

Yes yes, we all realize that there are no absolutes, and instead of even attempting to be objective your whole purpose seems to be to put a positive spin on everything, totally disregarding the other 99% effects of the event and how ridiculous that makes you sound.

...
PS: And look up definition of whataboutism before using it

Edit:

Regarding Israel 'unlikely to need much "resources"'

In addition, the United States government will be rapidly providing the Israel Defense Forces with additional equipment and resources, including munitions. The first security assistance will begin moving today and arriving in the coming days.

Oh yes, what great news for Ukraine   see how silly you sounded, didn't even take a day.

So you are trying to correct my positive spin by putting a negative spin on everything? If you are counting on any kind of opposite poles attraction, I here and now shall discourage you in full - it is not BAdeker's Gods will. Now, after now being accused of being xenofobic towards sub-atomic particles with spins other than mine, back to serious topics in my next update.

No, we're not entangled on quantum level or on any other level for that matter. This as an attempt to rearrange the world order, and Ukrainians are just being used as pawns. Somehow propaganda managed to convince Ukrainians that it's their job to die for the west, while ironically expecting Ukraine to be thankful for any scraps of weapons that west provides them while making sure that this weapon doesn't escalate the situation. Ukrainians are being fed hopium of this David vs Goliath fight where this miracle next weapon will surely help them win (but somehow won't escalate the situation), all they have to do now is just send their women and younger soldiers to the front lines. Truth of the matter is no one ever expected Ukraine to win, it's just needed to do maximum damage to Russia and no one is really concerned with the collateral damage in Ukraine. And these people that keep feeding hopium to Ukrainians, to keep them throwing their lives away, are complicit in this, they are not doing Ukrainians any favors and just prolonging the conflict as we watch more and more graveyards being dug up. It's just too easy to manipulate the masses. That's why i don't engage in these silly daily events of who took this meter of land today, but trying to show the overall trends.

[paxmao]

Some of the latest news coverage. Is there anyone left who still doesn't see where all of this is going?

...

And now Israel will be competing for resources, funds, intel satellite time etc... Politicians will act surprised and will be convincing people that no one could've possibly predicted such outcome, blame games will ensure, and everything will be done to prevent Ukrainians from even questioning any of this

My appraisal of where is this going is that Iran has done a favour to Ukraine. If there were some GOP members playing with the idea of reducing the support to Ukraine, they may be quite convinced now that "playing soft" gets their Israeli brothers killed (Hamas is an Iran proxy). Israel is unlikely to need much "resources" other than their usual sources - the Jewish community of US, UK,...

Riiiight, I'm sure Zelenskyy is very happy that the world has another war to occupy front pages and attention of already war fatigued world audience. What's next from your "whatever happens is good for Ukraine because..." narrative, how great would it be for Ukraine if China attacked Taiwan now? Then all of those Republicans would surely forget about their home audience and Trump would personally send more money to Ukraine? No, what be good for Ukraine if it's just a one day event, everything calms down and everyone could forget about Israel in a week, so Zelenskyy can get his news coverage back, Israel wont require more funds, worlds eye ball time, Ukraine's lobby in US won't have to compete with Israel's lobby, and Ukraine won't be covered as that "old" war.

Riiiight, when I do not have an argument I just whattabout and call stuff "a narrative", when you actually are delivering mostly narrative. The fact is that what I have said remains: GOP does have links to Israel, Iran is an ally of Ruzzia and this may actually be helpful for these Republicans and for the general public of the US who do not really know where Ukraine is in a map, but they have heard plenty about Iran.

So just a question of making sure they add 2 plus 2 and notice that they, personally, are in danger from this coalition. There are axis forming and Iran is with Ruzzia.

If China attacked Taiwan we would be closer to WW III, so negative for the entire population of the world, who likely would suffer very acute effects.

...

Yes yes, we all realize that there are no absolutes, and instead of even attempting to be objective your whole purpose seems to be to put a positive spin on everything, totally disregarding the other 99% effects of the event and how ridiculous that makes you sound.

...
PS: And look up definition of whataboutism before using it

Edit:

Regarding Israel 'unlikely to need much "resources"'

In addition, the United States government will be rapidly providing the Israel Defense Forces with additional equipment and resources, including munitions. The first security assistance will begin moving today and arriving in the coming days.

Oh yes, what great news for Ukraine   see how silly you sounded, didn't even take a day.

So you are trying to correct my positive spin by putting a negative spin on everything? If you are counting on any kind of opposite poles attraction, I here and now shall discourage you in full - it is not BAdeker's Gods will. Now, after now being accused of being xenofobic towards sub-atomic particles with spins other than mine, back to serious topics in my next update.

No, we're not entangled on quantum level or on any other level for that matter. This as an attempt to rearrange a world order, and Ukrainians are just being used as a pawns. Somehow propaganda managed to convince Ukrainians that it's their job to die for the west, while ironically expecting Ukraine to be thankful for any scraps of weapons that west provides them while making sure that this weapon doesn't escalate the situation. Ukrainians are being fed hopium of this David vs Goliath fight where this miracle next weapon will surely help them win (but somehow won't escalate the situation), all they have to do is just now to send women and younger soldiers to the front lines. Truth of the matter is no one ever expected Ukraine to win, it's just needed to do maximum damage to Russia and no one is really concerned with the collateral damage in Ukraine. And these people that keep feeding hopium to Ukrainians, to keep them throwing their lives away, are complicit in this, they are not doing Ukrainians any favors and just prolonging the conflict as we watch more and more graveyards being dug up. It's just too easy to manipulate the masses. That's why i don't engage in these silly daily events of who took this meter of land today, but trying to show the overall trends.

Sure, it is just that the solution you propose (Ukraine simply surrendering) is not a long term solution at all, it will carry war after war from a "victorious" Ruzzia, which is not acceptable outcome to me.

Speaking of meters, I think meters matter. Even 500 meters matter a lot. It is more or less what Ukraine need to take to place a HIMARS in range of hitting Berdiansk. Or any location along the coast or the railway line. Why do you think they are asking for ATACAMS? I think is because they can see a lot, but they cannot hit it (supplies, depots, command centres, logistics...)

So yes, a few meters here and there matter, which is the reason why Ukraine is still fighting for 50 meters at the time. Until the "land bridge" is under full artillery control by Ukraine. I think Ruzzian masters know this.

[DaRude]

Sure, it is just that the solution you propose (Ukraine simply surrendering) is not a long term solution at all, it will carry war after war from a "victorious" Ruzzia, which is not acceptable outcome to me.

Speaking of meters, I think meters matter. Even 500 meters matter a lot. It is more or less what Ukraine need to take to place a HIMARS in range of hitting Berdiansk. Or any location along the coast or the railway line. Why do you think they are asking for ATACAMS? I think is because they can see a lot, but they cannot hit it (supplies, depots, command centres, logistics...)

So yes, a few meters here and there matter, which is the reason why Ukraine is still fighting for 50 meters at the time.

Yes that's exactly my point. To say that an outcome is not acceptable, you need to consider what cost you are willing to pay to change that outcome, then consider the probability that after paying such cost the outcome will actually improve and not stay the same or actually make things worse after paying such cost. So to be unacceptable the cost must be little and probability of improving the situation must be high. Then consider the definition of cost, and definition of better/worse outcomes for each party and you'll then realize that there's an inherent conflict of interest in this equation. Ask yourself how much the Ukrainian "collateral damage" is really a cost for the "west", and if loosing all of Ukraine but reducing Russian military capacity by X% would be considered a better or worst outcome for each interested party? So i totally see the logic behind others encouraging Ukrainians to throw their gene pool away, little cost, little risk, the return is some reduction of RU military, what i don't see is why Ukrainians are actually buying into this, and what will happen when this disillusionment goes away and the reality that they were never meant to win anything and were actually made to encourage each other to a certain doom sets in.

EDIT:
As far as ATACMS all they're needed for is to raise the moral in Ukrainian. Looks like UA's power grid is unlikely to hold up this winter. UA will need some positive coverage during that time, look we're forbidden to use them in Russia, so look how we can shoot at this one substation in Crimea, to cause some RU village to also loose power...

Ukraine's air force expects a record number of Russian drone attacks on its soil this winter, its spokesperson Yuriy Ihnat said on Sunday, as Kyiv girds for a second winter of mass bombardment of its energy facilities.

Ihnat said that data for September showed the use by Russia of Iranian-designed Shahed kamikaze drones would smash last year's figure.

"This autumn and winter ... is already a record in terms of the number of Shahed drones. Over 500 (were used) in September," Ihnat said in an interview on national television.

He contrasted this number with Russia's air strike campaign on Ukraine last winter, when he said about 1,000 Shahed drones were used in six months.
...
Despite Ukraine bolstering its air defences, officials have warned of the risk of a repeat this winter, with the power grid still far from rebuilt after the last campaign of bombardment.

[paxmao]

Sure, it is just that the solution you propose (Ukraine simply surrendering) is not a long term solution at all, it will carry war after war from a "victorious" Ruzzia, which is not acceptable outcome to me.

Speaking of meters, I think meters matter. Even 500 meters matter a lot. It is more or less what Ukraine need to take to place a HIMARS in range of hitting Berdiansk. Or any location along the coast or the railway line. Why do you think they are asking for ATACAMS? I think is because they can see a lot, but they cannot hit it (supplies, depots, command centres, logistics...)

So yes, a few meters here and there matter, which is the reason why Ukraine is still fighting for 50 meters at the time.

Yes that's exactly my point. To say that an outcome is not acceptable, you need to consider what cost you are willing to pay to change that outcome, then consider the probability that after paying such cost the outcome will actually improve and not stay the same or actually make things worse after paying such cost. So to be unacceptable the cost must be little and probability of improving the situation must be high. Then consider the definition of cost, and definition of better/worse outcomes for each party and you'll then realize that there's an inherent conflict of interest in this equation. Ask yourself how much the Ukrainian "collateral damage" is really a cost for the "west", and if loosing all of Ukraine but reducing Russian military capacity by X% would be considered a better or worst outcome for each interested party? So i totally see the logic behind others encouraging Ukrainians to throw their gene pool away, little cost, little risk, the return is some reduction of RU military, what i don't see is why Ukrainians are actually buying into this, and what will happen when this disillusionment goes away and the reality that they were never meant to win anything and were actually made to encourage each other to a certain doom sets in.

EDIT:
As far as ATACMS all they're needed for is to raise the moral in Ukrainian. Looks like UA's power grid is unlikely to hold up this winter. UA will need some positive coverage during that time, look we're forbidden to use them in Russia, so look how we can shoot at this one substation in Crimea, to cause some RU village to also loose power...

Ukraine's air force expects a record number of Russian drone attacks on its soil this winter, its spokesperson Yuriy Ihnat said on Sunday, as Kyiv girds for a second winter of mass bombardment of its energy facilities.

Ihnat said that data for September showed the use by Russia of Iranian-designed Shahed kamikaze drones would smash last year's figure.

"This autumn and winter ... is already a record in terms of the number of Shahed drones. Over 500 (were used) in September," Ihnat said in an interview on national television.

He contrasted this number with Russia's air strike campaign on Ukraine last winter, when he said about 1,000 Shahed drones were used in six months.
...
Despite Ukraine bolstering its air defences, officials have warned of the risk of a repeat this winter, with the power grid still far from rebuilt after the last campaign of bombardment.

Oh men... you just called narratives and spins and here you are repeating over and over the mainstream Kremlin propaganda. Your narrative is highly convenient to Ruzzia (I am not surprised) and fits perfectly what the Kremlin wants everyone to believe (I am not surprised). "theres is nothing to be done", "all effort is in vain", "Ruzzia is too big", "Ruzzia has too many people",... The usual propaganda. But the biggest lie is that conceeding anything will stop Ruzzia (more on that below).

It turns out it is false and easily identifiable as false:

- Ruzzia is not fighting Ukraine, is fighting a bunch of angry and well industrialised countries - with quite a big and technically advanced military industry.
- Ruzzia had to retreat from vast amounts of territory because they cannot hold.
- Ukraine has managed to penetrate and is still penetrating well entrenched positions.
- The grinding of military equipment is actually unsustainable for Ruzzia, but it is not for Ukraine and their allies (Japan had an advantage in fleet, but then... they did not, like Ruzzia now).

This are facts not "spins" or "narratives". Even the Kremlin propagandists have gone for "Kiev in 3 days" to "Lets shape a convenient border and hope they do not break our lines".

This of course matches things like wasting missiles in power infrastructure, which is (a) irrelevant to the war effort (b) proven to be inefficient (c) proven to reinforce the will of the people being attacked.
It simply reminds me of Hitler bombing London - zero military effectiveness - to "break the will of the English" - in case you are not in the know, it did not go well for him.

Yes, to call an outcome unacceptable you need to balance this and that (which is never an mathematical exercise, because you may put little price on liberty, while many are ok to die for it). The problem is that a "victorious" Ruzzia (at least in a tactical level, the strategic international level is lost already), would not be an outcome, it would be the first chapter of and endless war hot / cold / proxy and all mixed. It is totally false anything like "if Ukraine conceded the land they will stop there" - it is just not going to happen so the option of "stopping the war now" is a fantasy.

So sure, balance that in your dreams.

No, ATACAMS are a weapon, they are not Ruzzian propaganda nor Kremlin narratives for "moral effects". Ukraine wants ATACAMS to blow up things they cannot blow up now and would very much like to blow up. It is not that difficult to imagine a few "objects" that they would like to convert to a recyclable construction rubbish pile. Objects that are the real strategically relevant, not "the infrastructure grid to lower the morale".

And now, the winter missile campaign - same tactics, same results (e.g. convincing the US to send a few more Patriots.)

[Branko]

And now, the winter missile campaign - same tactics, same results (e.g. convincing the US to send a few more Patriots.)

32 patriot missiles could not stop single Russian missile

[paxmao]

And now, the winter missile campaign - same tactics, same results (e.g. convincing the US to send a few more Patriots.)

32 patriot missiles could not stop single Russian missile

I will take your word for that, sure, but you see, the problem is that other people less informed than you, such as the Pentagon, may think that they actually have been quite successful in defending the key areas. What a strange thing Branko, how can they be so wrong and you be so right when they have all that fancy stuff gathering information for them?

Unfortunately Branko, it is that less informed than you people who will make that decision - but it is ok, because "Patriot does not work" right?

But the good thing is that they Air defence forces of Ukraine now have a great ally! The Ruzzian Air defence forces!

https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-accidentally-downed-own-su-35-fighter-jet-uk-intel-2023-10?r=US&IR=T#:~:text=been%20taken%20out.-,Russia%20shot%20down%20one%20of%20its%20own%20Su%2D35%20fighter,shot%20down%20the%20advanced%20jet.

Russia shot down one of its own Su-35 fighter jets in a recent friendly-fire incident, UK intelligence suggested.

[DaRude]

Sure, it is just that the solution you propose (Ukraine simply surrendering) is not a long term solution at all, it will carry war after war from a "victorious" Ruzzia, which is not acceptable outcome to me.

Speaking of meters, I think meters matter. Even 500 meters matter a lot. It is more or less what Ukraine need to take to place a HIMARS in range of hitting Berdiansk. Or any location along the coast or the railway line. Why do you think they are asking for ATACAMS? I think is because they can see a lot, but they cannot hit it (supplies, depots, command centres, logistics...)

So yes, a few meters here and there matter, which is the reason why Ukraine is still fighting for 50 meters at the time.

Yes that's exactly my point. To say that an outcome is not acceptable, you need to consider what cost you are willing to pay to change that outcome, then consider the probability that after paying such cost the outcome will actually improve and not stay the same or actually make things worse after paying such cost. So to be unacceptable the cost must be little and probability of improving the situation must be high. Then consider the definition of cost, and definition of better/worse outcomes for each party and you'll then realize that there's an inherent conflict of interest in this equation. Ask yourself how much the Ukrainian "collateral damage" is really a cost for the "west", and if loosing all of Ukraine but reducing Russian military capacity by X% would be considered a better or worst outcome for each interested party? So i totally see the logic behind others encouraging Ukrainians to throw their gene pool away, little cost, little risk, the return is some reduction of RU military, what i don't see is why Ukrainians are actually buying into this, and what will happen when this disillusionment goes away and the reality that they were never meant to win anything and were actually made to encourage each other to a certain doom sets in.

EDIT:
As far as ATACMS all they're needed for is to raise the moral in Ukrainian. Looks like UA's power grid is unlikely to hold up this winter. UA will need some positive coverage during that time, look we're forbidden to use them in Russia, so look how we can shoot at this one substation in Crimea, to cause some RU village to also loose power...

Ukraine's air force expects a record number of Russian drone attacks on its soil this winter, its spokesperson Yuriy Ihnat said on Sunday, as Kyiv girds for a second winter of mass bombardment of its energy facilities.

Ihnat said that data for September showed the use by Russia of Iranian-designed Shahed kamikaze drones would smash last year's figure.

"This autumn and winter ... is already a record in terms of the number of Shahed drones. Over 500 (were used) in September," Ihnat said in an interview on national television.

He contrasted this number with Russia's air strike campaign on Ukraine last winter, when he said about 1,000 Shahed drones were used in six months.
...
Despite Ukraine bolstering its air defences, officials have warned of the risk of a repeat this winter, with the power grid still far from rebuilt after the last campaign of bombardment.

Oh men... you just called narratives and spins and here you are repeating over and over the mainstream Kremlin propaganda. Your narrative is highly convenient to Ruzzia (I am not surprised) and fits perfectly what the Kremlin wants everyone to believe (I am not surprised). "theres is nothing to be done", "all effort is in vain", "Ruzzia is too big", "Ruzzia has too many people",... The usual propaganda. But the biggest lie is that conceeding anything will stop Ruzzia (more on that below).

It turns out it is false and easily identifiable as false:

- Ruzzia is not fighting Ukraine, is fighting a bunch of angry and well industrialised countries - with quite a big and technically advanced military industry.
- Ruzzia had to retreat from vast amounts of territory because they cannot hold.
- Ukraine has managed to penetrate and is still penetrating well entrenched positions.
- The grinding of military equipment is actually unsustainable for Ruzzia, but it is not for Ukraine and their allies (Japan had an advantage in fleet, but then... they did not, like Ruzzia now).

This are facts not "spins" or "narratives". Even the Kremlin propagandists have gone for "Kiev in 3 days" to "Lets shape a convenient border and hope they do not break our lines".

This of course matches things like wasting missiles in power infrastructure, which is (a) irrelevant to the war effort (b) proven to be inefficient (c) proven to reinforce the will of the people being attacked.
It simply reminds me of Hitler bombing London - zero military effectiveness - to "break the will of the English" - in case you are not in the know, it did not go well for him.

Yes, to call an outcome unacceptable you need to balance this and that (which is never an mathematical exercise, because you may put little price on liberty, while many are ok to die for it). The problem is that a "victorious" Ruzzia (at least in a tactical level, the strategic international level is lost already), would not be an outcome, it would be the first chapter of and endless war hot / cold / proxy and all mixed. It is totally false anything like "if Ukraine conceded the land they will stop there" - it is just not going to happen so the option of "stopping the war now" is a fantasy.

So sure, balance that in your dreams.

No, ATACAMS are a weapon, they are not Ruzzian propaganda nor Kremlin narratives for "moral effects". Ukraine wants ATACAMS to blow up things they cannot blow up now and would very much like to blow up. It is not that difficult to imagine a few "objects" that they would like to convert to a recyclable construction rubbish pile. Objects that are the real strategically relevant, not "the infrastructure grid to lower the morale".

And now, the winter missile campaign - same tactics, same results (e.g. convincing the US to send a few more Patriots.)

Careful, you might be loosing all objectivity. You can't just automatically dismiss something just because it's convenient for Kremlin. These things are not mutually exclusive. Just because it's convenient for Russia doesn't automatically make it a lie, just as not everything that supports Ukraine is a truth.

You once again attempting to spin that war of attrition is somehow more beneficial to Ukraine than to Russia, which is literally opposite to what everyone else is saying. So no, unlike you it's not just me making up stuff that's convenient to Kremlin.

Putin's plan to wear down support for Ukraine in a war of attrition seems to be working, though it's not risk-free

The Russian president has been playing a long game, wagering that Western resolve in helping Ukraine battle the Russian invasion was weak. In recent days there have been indications that it might be paying off.

In the US, Congress is currently split on whether to send more aid to Ukraine, a move opposed by Republicans in the House who recently unseated its speaker, Kevin McCarthy.

In Slovakia, a far-right party opposed to Ukraine aid won the general election; while in Germany support for the far-right AfD is surging on similar rhetoric.

If this winter brings more high fuel prices and inflation, exacerbated by the war, it could further erode public backing for large aid bills.

A war of attrition, say analysts, plays to Russian strengths, like its ability to manufacture more weapons and ammunition than Ukraine, and its much larger population.

Meanwhile, Ukraine's economy is struggling under the weight of the conflict and it is heavily dependent on Western aid.

"There are more and more signs that he's correct," Beebe told Insider of Putin's bet.

"Ukraine is not meeting its conscription goals, its economy is sagging under the weight of the war, and enthusiasm is waning both in the US and Europe for maintaining high levels of aid to Ukraine."

If Western aid were to dry up and Ukraine's resistance be seriously weakened, it's unclear how long Ukraine would be able to mount a resistance for — but at the very least Russia could transform Ukraine into failed state in permanent crisis.

Dismiss all of the red flags, as if it's just some random forum user claiming them, at your peril. Or rather, if you're US then sure you can ignore all of this as there's really no downside so it's logical to encourage the continuation of this conflict, for EU it's not so definite anymore, and for Ukraine the cost is definitely real, but that cost is not really a cost for anyone else but Ukraine, so keep encouraging more younger and women conscripts  

As far as wasting missiles on power infrastructure, I will take your word for that, sure, but you see, the problem is that other people less informed than you, such as the Pentagon, NATO, and Israel may think that they actually have been quite successful.

Unfortunately paxmao, it is that less informed than you people who will make that decision - but it is ok, because "attacking power infrastructure does not work" right?

NATO officials said the aim of the attacks, which plunged Belgrade into darkness Monday for several hours, was to disrupt military communications, command centers and air defense systems.
...
NATO planes have attacked bridges, oil refineries and other targets in raids that have affected civilians. But until Monday they had refrained from striking the electrical system. The alliance has repeatedly insisted its fight is with President Slobodan Milosevic, not with the Yugoslav people.

"The fact that lights went out across 70 percent of the country shows that NATO has its finger on the light switch now," said NATO spokesman Jamie Shea. "We can turn the power off whenever we need to and whenever we want to."

Though NATO insisted that its attacks on the electrical system would frustrate the Yugoslav and Serbian military, it was not immediately clear whether the forces had been hampered. The allies also say the attacks will not cut power to hospitals and other vital civilian services because they can turn to back-up generators powered by diesel fuel.
...
"We realize the inconvenience that may be caused to the Yugoslav people, but it up to Milosevic to decide how he wants to use his remaining energy resources: on his tanks or on his people," Shea said.

Lights go out in Baghdad as US sends in special forces

‘No Electricity, No Food, No Fuel’: Israel Orders ‘Complete Siege’ On Gaza Strip

All these world military powers should hire you so you could explain to them how "wasting missiles in power infrastructure, which is (a) irrelevant to the war effort (b) proven to be inefficient (c) proven to reinforce the will of the people being attacked." and i guess it's no surprise to anyone that when Russia does it, instead of all of these recent examples it reminds you of Hilter bombing London

edit: for everything else that you said there's NATO's article 5, it's silly to attempt to persuade anyone that Ukraine has somehow replaced NATO and it's guarantees to its member nations

[Branko]

And now, the winter missile campaign - same tactics, same results (e.g. convincing the US to send a few more Patriots.)

32 patriot missiles could not stop single Russian missile

I will take your word for that, sure, but you see, the problem is that other people less informed than you, such as the Pentagon, may think that they actually have been quite successful in defending the key areas. What a strange thing Branko, how can they be so wrong and you be so right when they have all that fancy stuff gathering information for them?

Unfortunately Branko, it is that less informed than you people who will make that decision - but it is ok, because "Patriot does not work" right?

But the good thing is that they Air defence forces of Ukraine now have a great ally! The Ruzzian Air defence forces!

https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-accidentally-downed-own-su-35-fighter-jet-uk-intel-2023-10?r=US&IR=T#:~:text=been%20taken%20out.-,Russia%20shot%20down%20one%20of%20its%20own%20Su%2D35%20fighter,shot%20down%20the%20advanced%20jet.

Russia shot down one of its own Su-35 fighter jets in a recent friendly-fire incident, UK intelligence suggested.

If I would be wrong, they would not quietly stop sending more patriot systems

[paxmao]

And now, the winter missile campaign - same tactics, same results (e.g. convincing the US to send a few more Patriots.)

32 patriot missiles could not stop single Russian missile

I will take your word for that, sure, but you see, the problem is that other people less informed than you, such as the Pentagon, may think that they actually have been quite successful in defending the key areas. What a strange thing Branko, how can they be so wrong and you be so right when they have all that fancy stuff gathering information for them?

Unfortunately Branko, it is that less informed than you people who will make that decision - but it is ok, because "Patriot does not work" right?

But the good thing is that they Air defence forces of Ukraine now have a great ally! The Ruzzian Air defence forces!

https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-accidentally-downed-own-su-35-fighter-jet-uk-intel-2023-10?r=US&IR=T#:~:text=been%20taken%20out.-,Russia%20shot%20down%20one%20of%20its%20own%20Su%2D35%20fighter,shot%20down%20the%20advanced%20jet.

Russia shot down one of its own Su-35 fighter jets in a recent friendly-fire incident, UK intelligence suggested.

If I would be wrong, they would not quietly stop sending more patriot systems

Shhh... do not tell anyone... they are doing it very quietly, the press is just to smart for them...

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-provide-ukraine-with-an-additional-patriot-air-defence-system-scholz-2023-10-05/

BERLIN, Oct 5 (Reuters) - Germany is working on the supply of an additional Patriot air defence missile system to Ukraine in the winter months, German Chancellor Olaf Scholz said on Thursday.

"This is what is most necessary now - to ensure air defence with this highly efficient system," Scholz said after the first day of the EU Political Community summit in Granada, Spain.

The German chancellor said Russia would try to threaten Ukraine's infrastructure and cities again this winter with missile and drone attacks, and that is what made the air defence system a priority.

But it may be that the German Government also is not as informed as you, they probably read different "reports". However, here you have the opportunity to prove your claim. Why do you say that Patriot have not stopped a single missile? Go for it, your time to publish one of those "articles" that you like so much.

Sure, it is just that the solution you propose (Ukraine simply surrendering) is not a long term solution at all, it will carry war after war from a "victorious" Ruzzia, which is not acceptable outcome to me.

Speaking of meters, I think meters matter. Even 500 meters matter a lot. It is more or less what Ukraine need to take to place a HIMARS in range of hitting Berdiansk. Or any location along the coast or the railway line. Why do you think they are asking for ATACAMS? I think is because they can see a lot, but they cannot hit it (supplies, depots, command centres, logistics...)

So yes, a few meters here and there matter, which is the reason why Ukraine is still fighting for 50 meters at the time.

Yes that's exactly my point. To say that an outcome is not acceptable, you need to consider what cost you are willing to pay to change that outcome,


[... snip the Kremlin propaganda]//*

EDIT:
As far as ATACMS all they're needed for is to raise the moral in Ukrainian. Looks like UA's power grid is unlikely to hold up this winter. UA will need some positive coverage during that time, look we're forbidden to use them in Russia, so look how we can shoot at this one substation in Crimea, to cause some RU village to also loose power...

Ukraine's air force expects a record number of Russian drone attacks on its soil this winter, its spokesperson Yuriy Ihnat said on Sunday, as Kyiv girds for a second winter of mass bombardment of its energy facilities.

Ihnat said that data for September showed the use by Russia of Iranian-designed Shahed kamikaze drones would smash last year's figure.

"This autumn and winter ... is already a record in terms of the number of Shahed drones. Over 500 (were used) in September," Ihnat said in an interview on national television.

He contrasted this number with Russia's air strike campaign on Ukraine last winter, when he said about 1,000 Shahed drones were used in six months.
...
Despite Ukraine bolstering its air defences, officials have warned of the risk of a repeat this winter, with the power grid still far from rebuilt after the last campaign of bombardment.

Oh men... you just called narratives and spins and here you are repeating over and over the mainstream Kremlin propaganda. Your narrative is highly convenient to Ruzzia (I am not surprised) and fits perfectly what the Kremlin wants everyone to believe (I am not surprised). "theres is nothing to be done", "all effort is in vain", "Ruzzia is too big", "Ruzzia has too many people",... The usual propaganda. But the biggest lie is that conceeding anything will stop Ruzzia (more on that below).

It turns out it is false and easily identifiable as false:

- Ruzzia is not fighting Ukraine, is fighting a bunch of angry and well industrialised countries - with quite a big and technically advanced military industry.
- Ruzzia had to retreat from vast amounts of territory because they cannot hold.
- Ukraine has managed to penetrate and is still penetrating well entrenched positions.
- The grinding of military equipment is actually unsustainable for Ruzzia, but it is not for Ukraine and their allies (Japan had an advantage in fleet, but then... they did not, like Ruzzia now).

This are facts not "spins" or "narratives". Even the Kremlin propagandists have gone for "Kiev in 3 days" to "Lets shape a convenient border and hope they do not break our lines".

This of course matches things like wasting missiles in power infrastructure, which is (a) irrelevant to the war effort (b) proven to be inefficient (c) proven to reinforce the will of the people being attacked.
It simply reminds me of Hitler bombing London - zero military effectiveness - to "break the will of the English" - in case you are not in the know, it did not go well for him.

Yes, to call an outcome unacceptable you need to balance this and that (which is never an mathematical exercise, because you may put little price on liberty, while many are ok to die for it). The problem is that a "victorious" Ruzzia (at least in a tactical level, the strategic international level is lost already), would not be an outcome, it would be the first chapter of and endless war hot / cold / proxy and all mixed. It is totally false anything like "if Ukraine conceded the land they will stop there" - it is just not going to happen so the option of "stopping the war now" is a fantasy.

So sure, balance that in your dreams.

No, ATACAMS are a weapon, they are not Ruzzian propaganda nor Kremlin narratives for "moral effects". Ukraine wants ATACAMS to blow up things they cannot blow up now and would very much like to blow up. It is not that difficult to imagine a few "objects" that they would like to convert to a recyclable construction rubbish pile. Objects that are the real strategically relevant, not "the infrastructure grid to lower the morale".

And now, the winter missile campaign - same tactics, same results (e.g. convincing the US to send a few more Patriots.)

Careful, you might be loosing all objectivity. You can't just automatically dismiss something just because it's convenient for Kremlin. These things are not mutually exclusive. Just because it's convenient for Russia doesn't automatically make it a lie, just as not everything that supports Ukraine is a truth.

You once again attempting to spin that war of attrition is somehow more beneficial to Ukraine than to Russia, which is literally opposite to what everyone else is saying. So no, unlike you it's not just me making up stuff that's convenient to Kremlin.

Putin's plan to wear down support for Ukraine in a war of attrition seems to be working, though it's not risk-free

The Russian president has been playing a long game, wagering that Western resolve in helping Ukraine battle the Russian invasion was weak. In recent days there have been indications that it might be paying off.

In the US, Congress is currently split on whether to send more aid to Ukraine, a move opposed by Republicans in the House who recently unseated its speaker, Kevin McCarthy.

In Slovakia, a far-right party opposed to Ukraine aid won the general election; while in Germany support for the far-right AfD is surging on similar rhetoric.

If this winter brings more high fuel prices and inflation, exacerbated by the war, it could further erode public backing for large aid bills.

A war of attrition, say analysts, plays to Russian strengths, like its ability to manufacture more weapons and ammunition than Ukraine, and its much larger population.

Meanwhile, Ukraine's economy is struggling under the weight of the conflict and it is heavily dependent on Western aid.

"There are more and more signs that he's correct," Beebe told Insider of Putin's bet.

"Ukraine is not meeting its conscription goals, its economy is sagging under the weight of the war, and enthusiasm is waning both in the US and Europe for maintaining high levels of aid to Ukraine."

If Western aid were to dry up and Ukraine's resistance be seriously weakened, it's unclear how long Ukraine would be able to mount a resistance for — but at the very least Russia could transform Ukraine into failed state in permanent crisis.

Dismiss all of the red flags, as if it's just some random forum user claiming them, at your peril. Or rather, if you're US then sure you can ignore all of this as there's really no downside so it's logical to encourage the continuation of this conflict, for EU it's not so definite anymore, and for Ukraine the cost is definitely real, but that cost is not really a cost for anyone else but Ukraine, so keep encouraging more younger and women conscripts  

As far as wasting missiles on power infrastructure, I will take your word for that, sure, but you see, the problem is that other people less informed than you, such as the Pentagon, NATO, and Israel may think that they actually have been quite successful.

Unfortunately paxmao, it is that less informed than you people who will make that decision - but it is ok, because "attacking power infrastructure does not work" right?

NATO officials said the aim of the attacks, which plunged Belgrade into darkness Monday for several hours, was to disrupt military communications, command centers and air defense systems.
...
NATO planes have attacked bridges, oil refineries and other targets in raids that have affected civilians. But until Monday they had refrained from striking the electrical system. The alliance has repeatedly insisted its fight is with President Slobodan Milosevic, not with the Yugoslav people.

"The fact that lights went out across 70 percent of the country shows that NATO has its finger on the light switch now," said NATO spokesman Jamie Shea. "We can turn the power off whenever we need to and whenever we want to."

Though NATO insisted that its attacks on the electrical system would frustrate the Yugoslav and Serbian military, it was not immediately clear whether the forces had been hampered. The allies also say the attacks will not cut power to hospitals and other vital civilian services because they can turn to back-up generators powered by diesel fuel.
...
"We realize the inconvenience that may be caused to the Yugoslav people, but it up to Milosevic to decide how he wants to use his remaining energy resources: on his tanks or on his people," Shea said.

Lights go out in Baghdad as US sends in special forces

‘No Electricity, No Food, No Fuel’: Israel Orders ‘Complete Siege’ On Gaza Strip

All these world military powers should hire you so you could explain to them how "wasting missiles in power infrastructure, which is (a) irrelevant to the war effort (b) proven to be inefficient (c) proven to reinforce the will of the people being attacked." and i guess it's no surprise to anyone that when Russia does it, instead of all of these recent examples it reminds you of Hilter bombing London

edit: for everything else that you said there's NATO's article 5, it's silly to attempt to persuade anyone that Ukraine has somehow replaced NATO and it's guarantees to its member nations

They probably would like to hire me, they probably cannot pay the price  

1. The Israelis are not cutting supplies for the "war effort". I leave to your imagination (wild mostly) why have they first put 2 million people in a space that can hold 500k, then limit their movement, control their food, their water, every aspect of their lives and, after the Hamas attack, cut essential life supplies -  but I can tell you is not to achieve military objectives nor to diminish the "military production" of the Gaza strip.

2. The US army and NATO had plenty of military means to spare, if they were limited, they would not have given any priority to the grid for many reasons: (a) It is simply a infrastructure that easy to replace and repair and difficult to destroy beyond repair (particularly with the "precision" of the Ruzzian missiles). (b) Ukraine is too large for that strategy to be effective (c) the military production is mostly done outside Ukraine.

But you know, last winter they did it, and here we are so that proves is not effective, rational people would not need further proof.

For everything else you say, you are wrong. The Ukraine is not going to attack the RF grid with ATACAMS, as they are not doing so with Stormshadow, because they are not as stupid as the RF military and would rather not waste what they have. They will blow up military and economic objectives that really hurt - multi-million oil infrastructure, logistic hubs, we. They can see them thanks to "the gospel" from the sky and the massive infiltration behind Ruzzian lines. They are quite mad they cannot shot at them, but that's about to change.

The Article 5 would not stop Ruzzia from invading further Ukraine. So again, your solution of surrendering is not a solution, is a pause so that Ruzzia repairs the army a goes in the offensive again. You must think that people are stupid seriously - what a bunch of non-sense covered in a trillion words.

EDIT: Ruzzia has thrown plenty of troops in Avdiivka. I mean, thrown into a scrapyard literaly. Tens of BMPs an tanks in ashes (with their crews) in one day. The territorial gain has been... 50 meters? Another successful effort in "self-demilitarising" by Ruzzia.

https://youtu.be/emjwRD2nPqU?t=2674

[DaRude]

...

They probably would like to hire me, they probably cannot pay the price  

1. The Israelis are not cutting supplies for the "war effort". I leave to your imagination (wild mostly) why have they first put 2 million people in a space that can hold 500k, then limit their movement, control their food, their water, every aspect of their lives and, after the Hamas attack, cut essential life supplies -  but I can tell you is not to achieve military objectives nor to diminish the "military production" of the Gaza strip.

2. The US army and NATO had plenty of military means to spare, if they were limited, they would not have given any priority to the grid for many reasons: (a) It is simply a infrastructure that easy to replace and repair and difficult to destroy beyond repair (particularly with the "precision" of the Ruzzian missiles). (b) Ukraine is too large for that strategy to be effective (c) the military production is mostly done outside Ukraine.

But you know, last winter they did it, and here we are so that proves is not effective, rational people would not need further proof.

For everything else you say, you are wrong. The Ukraine is not going to attack the RF grid with ATACAMS, as they are not doing so with Stormshadow, because they are not as stupid as the RF military and would rather not waste what they have. They will blow up military and economic objectives that really hurt - multi-million oil infrastructure, logistic hubs, we. They can see them thanks to "the gospel" from the sky and the massive infiltration behind Ruzzian lines. They are quite mad they cannot shot at them, but that's about to change.

The Article 5 would not stop Ruzzia from invading further Ukraine. So again, your solution of surrendering is not a solution, is a pause so that Ruzzia repairs the army a goes in the offensive again. You must think that people are stupid seriously - what a bunch of non-sense covered in a trillion words.

EDIT: Ruzzia has thrown plenty of troops in Avdiivka. I mean, thrown into a scrapyard literaly. Tens of BMPs an tanks in ashes (with their crews) in one day. The territorial gain has been... 50 meters? Another successful effort in "self-demilitarising" by Ruzzia.

https://youtu.be/emjwRD2nPqU?t=2674

Don't keep us guessing do tell why Israel cut power to Gaza? Are you implying that Israel is trying to reinforce the will of Palestinians? And is US helping Palestinians in their pursuit for freedom, shouldn't Nuland go to Gaza with some freedom cookies?

Ukraine confirms attack on electrical grid in Russia's Kursk region why didn't you tell them what you know about attacking power grids? I think they can afford you by printing as much as you ask

You went from general statement that attacking power grid is "(a) irrelevant to the war effort (b) proven to be inefficient (c) proven to reinforce the will of the people being attacked... zero military effectiveness" then when i provided evidence of other nations doing exactly the same thing, you changed it to: well, every country had its reasons to attack power grids except if that country start with a letter R, has two S's and ends with a letter A.

"But you know, last winter they did it, and here we are so that proves is not effective, rational people would not need further proof."
Oh is that how your idea of how rational people should work? Ukraine tried to take Crimea back last year, and here we are so that proves that such effort is not effective, rational people would not need further proof. You're getting to a full propaganda mode, to the level of a 4th grader.

They will blow up military and economic objectives that really hurt
You think we're already at that stage where even loosing the whole power grid wouldn't hurt Ukraine economically  

Edit:
paxmao position within 3 days:
When Ukraine does it "So yes, a few meters here and there matter, which is the reason why Ukraine is still fighting for 50 meters at the time."
When Russia does it "The territorial gain has been... 50 meters? Another successful effort in "self-demilitarising" by Ruzzia."
Looks like you have completely given up on even any resemblance of objectivity?