How Satoshi Nakamoto Fooled the World

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

You're trying to deny facts with words.

Mostly, I have been trying to be descriptive rather than prescriptive, so you can call it whatever you like.. You seem to be the one who is failing/refusing to deal with actual facts... which also likely leads you into bad logic too.. but maybe it does not matter so much if your logic is good or bad if you yourself continue to consider that something is not real merely because it includes seemingly intangible characteristics... there are a lot of things that are real in the world that partially or wholly include or involve intangibles.

Maybe only a toddler has NOT developed a brain that is able to utilize various aspects of abstract thinking and to appreciate that a variety of real things exist in the world even when they are not in a physically tangible form in front of their ability to sense them with one of the 5 senses or even if you are so sensorially alert as to consider that there are more than 5 senses.. some theories of 21 senses.. .. .

It's is not important what you or other people see in the bitcoin system or say about it.

Well it is important if various ideas are communicated between people, and sometimes certain kinds of phenomena, practices, procedures become accepted or commonly known.

So surely there will be differing levels of understanding that people have in terms of how they might put something to use or feel that they are affected by it, and yes there are likely  going to be some people who either do not understand various aspects or they just remain outsiders because they refuse to accept or understand some real phenomena that exists in the world and is shared amongst other people.

That's just perception and conepts - products of imagination. What is important is the fact that once people invested into this system, they can't get anything out of the system, except if someone enters into it.

It's possible that you could be correct in some ways that parties need to understand the medium of exchange, but you are tending towards discussion this matter in so many absolutes that even I can think of examples in which you are wrong too...

So for example, people can benefit from some systems without realizing that they are benefiting from it.
 Sometimes infrastructure can be built and people can benefit from those systems.  Sometimes ways of interacting can be established in which every time you see a person on the street you do not try to kill them, and you do not realize that you are benefiting from that.

Let's say for example, you live in an area that does not naturally have potable water, yet either you receive deliveries of potable water on a regular basis and you do not even know that the water is being delivered to your location.. In your mind, you believe that the potable water naturally exists in the location that you tap into it, and you had not known anything else in your existence and you did not involve yourself in consenting to such delivery system, but you live your whole life receiving the delivered water.

I could provide other examples to show that you are describing such need to consent or know about your benefits or interactions with a positive system with too much absolutism.

Now, thell me, how's that possible if there's value in the system?

I already gave examples.  You seem to be the one who both lacks imagination and also has the burden to prove that what you say is true.., because as far as I can see, you seem to have gone too far down the imagination road.

Just try to think about it for a moment.

Already thought about it.  It is not as difficult or dramatic as you are making it out to be in your level of seeming ongoing wrongness.

All that electricity invested into the system, all the goods, services,  dollars... but literally nothing can be taken out without someone voluntarily entering into the system. So, how that possible if there's value in the system? Or to put it another way: where's the value that you see or preach about, except in your imagination?

Well, it seems to me that any new invention both has the potential to enhance existing systems and to move value around within existing systems, but it also has potentials to increase new value in ways that might not have had been previously imaginable under the old system.  Sure, the value might not be unilateral and without trade offs, but we can study the existence of a lot of systems that both brought value but also increased the total size of the value pie - whether we are referring to inventions like the wheel, the automobile, electricity, the internet, the refrigerator, and bitcoin ends up having several of its own ways of both creating efficiencies but also increasing possible values or ways of interacting that increases value.

Just take the car, for example, yeah more bugs were killed and roads were built that changed aspects of the environment, but it also allowed for movement of people and goods that allowed for improvements in society.. or maybe split the family apart because people were no longer stuck living in smaller geographical area.. You can spin the positives and negatives and maybe even proclaim that the car caused net negatives, just like you could do the same with bitcoin, yet you still seem to be in denial if you just conclusorily proclaim that bitcoin has no value... which surely seems to be your lame-ass perspective and position.

[Snowshow]

[edited out]

You're trying to deny facts with words.

Mostly, I have been trying to be descriptive rather than prescriptive, so you can call it whatever you like.. You seem to be the one who is failing/refusing to deal with actual facts... which also likely leads you into bad logic too.. but maybe it does not matter so much if your logic is good or bad if you yourself continue to consider that something is not real merely because it includes seemingly intangible characteristics... there are a lot of things that are real in the world that partially or wholly include or involve intangibles.

Maybe only a toddler has NOT developed a brain that is able to utilize various aspects of abstract thinking and to appreciate that a variety of real things exist in the world even when they are not in a physically tangible form in front of their ability to sense them with one of the 5 senses or even if you are so sensorially alert as to consider that there are more than 5 senses.. some theories of 21 senses.. .. .

It's is not important what you or other people see in the bitcoin system or say about it.

Well it is important if various ideas are communicated between people, and sometimes certain kinds of phenomena, practices, procedures become accepted or commonly known.

So surely there will be differing levels of understanding that people have in terms of how they might put something to use or feel that they are affected by it, and yes there are likely  going to be some people who either do not understand various aspects or they just remain outsiders because they refuse to accept or understand some real phenomena that exists in the world and is shared amongst other people.

That's just perception and conepts - products of imagination. What is important is the fact that once people invested into this system, they can't get anything out of the system, except if someone enters into it.

It's possible that you could be correct in some ways that parties need to understand the medium of exchange, but you are tending towards discussion this matter in so many absolutes that even I can think of examples in which you are wrong too...

So for example, people can benefit from some systems without realizing that they are benefiting from it.
 Sometimes infrastructure can be built and people can benefit from those systems.  Sometimes ways of interacting can be established in which every time you see a person on the street you do not try to kill them, and you do not realize that you are benefiting from that.

Let's say for example, you live in an area that does not naturally have potable water, yet either you receive deliveries of potable water on a regular basis and you do not even know that the water is being delivered to your location.. In your mind, you believe that the potable water naturally exists in the location that you tap into it, and you had not known anything else in your existence and you did not involve yourself in consenting to such delivery system, but you live your whole life receiving the delivered water.

I could provide other examples to show that you are describing such need to consent or know about your benefits or interactions with a positive system with too much absolutism.

Now, thell me, how's that possible if there's value in the system?

I already gave examples.  You seem to be the one who both lacks imagination and also has the burden to prove that what you say is true.., because as far as I can see, you seem to have gone too far down the imagination road.

Just try to think about it for a moment.

Already thought about it.  It is not as difficult or dramatic as you are making it out to be in your level of seeming ongoing wrongness.

All that electricity invested into the system, all the goods, services,  dollars... but literally nothing can be taken out without someone voluntarily entering into the system. So, how that possible if there's value in the system? Or to put it another way: where's the value that you see or preach about, except in your imagination?

Well, it seems to me that any new invention both has the potential to enhance existing systems and to move value around within existing systems, but it also has potentials to increase new value in ways that might not have had been previously imaginable under the old system.  Sure, the value might not be unilateral and without trade offs, but we can study the existence of a lot of systems that both brought value but also increased the total size of the value pie - whether we are referring to inventions like the wheel, the automobile, electricity, the internet, the refrigerator, and bitcoin ends up having several of its own ways of both creating efficiencies but also increasing possible values or ways of interacting that increases value.

Just take the car, for example, yeah more bugs were killed and roads were built that changed aspects of the environment, but it also allowed for movement of people and goods that allowed for improvements in society.. or maybe split the family apart because people were no longer stuck living in smaller geographical area.. You can spin the positives and negatives and maybe even proclaim that the car caused net negatives, just like you could do the same with bitcoin, yet you still seem to be in denial if you just conclusorily proclaim that bitcoin has no value... which surely seems to be your lame-ass perspective and position.

WOW, just... WOW. You're capable of writing all that text and actually say nothing. Unbelievable. So, there are supposedly more than 18,000,000 of these valuable coins or tokens in the bitcoin system. A half a trillion dollars worth of assets. And yet, all those people that are holding those assets, are unable to even eat an apple or put a single dollar into a pocket if someone doesn't voluntarily enter the system and give them that apple or a dollar. And all you do in response to this interesting and important fact is writing a wall of text that completely ignores everything. Crazy. And you do all that just because you are not willing to admit that some anonymous guy, or group of people, scammed you. You rather deny a pure and a simple fact that no value exist in the system, instead of just admitting that these anonymous people invented a perfect system for scamming people out of their economic values. What is mind boggling in this whole situation is how fanatically you holders defend those that scammed you. Not only that, but you praise them as if they were heroes, or even deity. I guess it's a some kind of Stockholm syndrome.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

WOW, just... WOW. You're capable of writing all that text and actually say nothing. Unbelievable.

It remains your choice to continue to poo-poo matters and act as if nothing has been said.

So, there are supposedly more than 18,000,000 of these valuable coins or tokens in the bitcoin system.

Don't get too caught up on the number of units.. because they can be divided further.. so sure in the end there will be 21 million of those units or 2.1 Quadrillion satoshis.. and even satoshis can be further divided to account for likely increasing value/prices in the future.

A half a trillion dollars worth of assets.

Sure.. current market capitalization is a bit more than half a trillion dollars.. so sure.

And yet, all those people that are holding those assets, are unable to even eat an apple or put a single dollar into a pocket if someone doesn't voluntarily enter the system and give them that apple or a dollar.

I already addressed this point.

And all you do in response to this interesting and important fact is writing a wall of text that completely ignores everything. Crazy.

Yes.. your supposed ongoing genius insight seems to continue to fall on deaf ears, and perhaps we are talking passed one another.. I made my points, you made your points, and we did not resolve anything so it seems... but I could give less than two shits about you in particular because you seem to be too stubborn to acknowledge the value and/or importance of BTC - yet since this is a public thread, it may well be a good idea to have responses that other members of the forum and members of the public are going to be able to read.. and maybe even to provide their own response.. besides considering you as a blind and out of touch loon...

And you do all that just because you are not willing to admit that some anonymous guy, or group of people, scammed you.

That is a pretty crazy talking point that you got there Snowshow.

It's like you don't have any ability to distinguish bitcoin from various shitcoins.

Have you ever considered bitcoin as a ledger that also transmits value? .... we had never previously been able to transmit value over the internet without having to trust third parties prior to bitcoin.  Even the imitation shitcoins and various other projects have not achieved what bitcoin has achieved.. and part of the whole thing keeping bitcoin together is a system of computers in which they are not coordinated and they are built upon incentives that cause them to continue to protect the transactions that are made while also protecting the value that is on the network that could be transacted but is just sitting their in HODL status.

It's a fucking amazing system that has been invented (or discovered) and it has gotten to a state of existence in which no one can stop it without expending a shit tonn of resources, and even if someone tries to stop it, at this point it is questionable whether anyone can stop it or have sufficient incentives to stop such an amazing phenomenon that has come to us in the past 13-14 years and has been increasing and increasing in value through ongoing existence (also known as a Lindy effect).

You rather deny a pure and a simple fact that no value exist in the system, instead of just admitting that these anonymous people invented a perfect system for scamming people out of their economic values.

Yes.. your myth about some secret people stealing value, and accordingly, you are either incapable of recognizing the value of a decentralized system in front of your eyes (at least the most decentralized and powerful system that has existed to date) or alternatively you recognize the actual value of such system, and you are merely continuing to spout out misleading and perhaps disinformation talking points on purpose because you and your handlers happen to be scaredy cats.. but instead of being scaredy cats, jump on board.. better late then never in terms of the various status quo institutions that are going to have to transition into the bitcoin ecosystem sooner or later just like most of the worlds monetary value will be gravitating into bitcoin in one way or another.. just might take a few hundred years.... and there are no real needs for us regular folks to plan that far in advance, even if we can see the direction where bitcoin is going.

What is mind boggling in this whole situation is how fanatically you holders defend those that scammed you.

What's mind boggling is that you want to just keep making shit up.  If a better system comes along, then I am sure many of us would be more than willing to abandon bitcoin and move over to such better system, but it so happens to be that bitcoin remains a god damned amazing invention and it is playing out in ways that are likely way better than so many of us could have even imagined.. amazing to see how powerful bitcoin is and even if there are short-term battles with the price (including downward movements), the whole system of bitcoin continues to plug along.. tick tock the next block every 10 minutes.. even if there are quite a few powerful folks who likely wished bitcoin would stop, including you Snowshow and your handlers, but you have no choice and your disinformation and misinformation attempts are likely not to really help, even if you might experience some short-term feelings of success.

Not only that, but you praise them as if they were heroes, or even deity. I guess it's a some kind of Stockholm syndrome.

Who am I praising exactly?  bitcoin is decentralized. there is no one to praise.. Satoshi is gone.. and if he came back to try to direct bitcoin, no one would listen to him because not even Satoshi is able to change bitcoin... not that he is coming back..   It is quite likely that Satoshi is dead.  therefore, no one is in charge of bitcoin..   bitcoin continues to survive and push on, even though no one is in charge..

go figure.

[Fivestar4everMVP]

Hi op, am changing your username from "Snowshow" to "Shitshow", this is because, a Snowshow sounds like a serious show but a Shitshow is a funny show that people only watch because they want to have a good laugh.
The subject of your post is enough to make me look away from this post, but because I needed to have a good laugh this morning, I decided to open the thread and read your entire post, and sincerely, am laughing at your level of understanding and ignorance of what bitcoin truly is and represents.
They say what one does not understand is bigger than the person, I can see this in full manifestation on your post.

My simple question to you is?
-Are you smarter than Elon musk of tesla?
-Are you smarter than CZ of binance?
-Are you smarter than Jack of Twitter (previous ceo)?
-Are you smarter than Peter Thiel of PayPal? Who said, and I quote

"The biggest mistake I made in the last decade was getting too late and too little into bitcoin"

-Are you smarter than Robert kiyosaki of rich dad, poor dad?
-Are you smarter than Nayib Bukele, president of El Salvador?
-Are you smarter than the government of America?
-Are you smarter than Vladimir Putin, president of Russia?
-Are you smarter than Volodymyr Zelenskyy, president of Ukraine?
-Are you smarter than the government of the entire world?

The list goes on and on, All this people and government believe in bitcoin's reality, they believe bitcoin is real, and some in the list have heavily invested in bitcoin while others are working hard to regulate its use in their country and around the world.
If all this people believe in bitcoin, who are you to say otherwise and to even try to convince me that bitcoin is not real?

Huh?

[Snowshow]

[edited out]

WOW, just... WOW. You're capable of writing all that text and actually say nothing. Unbelievable.

It remains your choice to continue to poo-poo matters and act as if nothing has been said.

So, there are supposedly more than 18,000,000 of these valuable coins or tokens in the bitcoin system.

Don't get too caught up on the number of units.. because they can be divided further.. so sure in the end there will be 21 million of those units or 2.1 Quadrillion satoshis.. and even satoshis can be further divided to account for likely increasing value/prices in the future.

A half a trillion dollars worth of assets.

Sure.. current market capitalization is a bit more than half a trillion dollars.. so sure.

And yet, all those people that are holding those assets, are unable to even eat an apple or put a single dollar into a pocket if someone doesn't voluntarily enter the system and give them that apple or a dollar.

I already addressed this point.

And all you do in response to this interesting and important fact is writing a wall of text that completely ignores everything. Crazy.

Yes.. your supposed ongoing genius insight seems to continue to fall on deaf ears, and perhaps we are talking passed one another.. I made my points, you made your points, and we did not resolve anything so it seems... but I could give less than two shits about you in particular because you seem to be too stubborn to acknowledge the value and/or importance of BTC - yet since this is a public thread, it may well be a good idea to have responses that other members of the forum and members of the public are going to be able to read.. and maybe even to provide their own response.. besides considering you as a blind and out of touch loon...

And you do all that just because you are not willing to admit that some anonymous guy, or group of people, scammed you.

That is a pretty crazy talking point that you got there Snowshow.

It's like you don't have any ability to distinguish bitcoin from various shitcoins.

Have you ever considered bitcoin as a ledger that also transmits value? .... we had never previously been able to transmit value over the internet without having to trust third parties prior to bitcoin.  Even the imitation shitcoins and various other projects have not achieved what bitcoin has achieved.. and part of the whole thing keeping bitcoin together is a system of computers in which they are not coordinated and they are built upon incentives that cause them to continue to protect the transactions that are made while also protecting the value that is on the network that could be transacted but is just sitting their in HODL status.

It's a fucking amazing system that has been invented (or discovered) and it has gotten to a state of existence in which no one can stop it without expending a shit tonn of resources, and even if someone tries to stop it, at this point it is questionable whether anyone can stop it or have sufficient incentives to stop such an amazing phenomenon that has come to us in the past 13-14 years and has been increasing and increasing in value through ongoing existence (also known as a Lindy effect).

You rather deny a pure and a simple fact that no value exist in the system, instead of just admitting that these anonymous people invented a perfect system for scamming people out of their economic values.

Yes.. your myth about some secret people stealing value, and accordingly, you are either incapable of recognizing the value of a decentralized system in front of your eyes (at least the most decentralized and powerful system that has existed to date) or alternatively you recognize the actual value of such system, and you are merely continuing to spout out misleading and perhaps disinformation talking points on purpose because you and your handlers happen to be scaredy cats.. but instead of being scaredy cats, jump on board.. better late then never in terms of the various status quo institutions that are going to have to transition into the bitcoin ecosystem sooner or later just like most of the worlds monetary value will be gravitating into bitcoin in one way or another.. just might take a few hundred years.... and there are no real needs for us regular folks to plan that far in advance, even if we can see the direction where bitcoin is going.

What is mind boggling in this whole situation is how fanatically you holders defend those that scammed you.

What's mind boggling is that you want to just keep making shit up.  If a better system comes along, then I am sure many of us would be more than willing to abandon bitcoin and move over to such better system, but it so happens to be that bitcoin remains a god damned amazing invention and it is playing out in ways that are likely way better than so many of us could have even imagined.. amazing to see how powerful bitcoin is and even if there are short-term battles with the price (including downward movements), the whole system of bitcoin continues to plug along.. tick tock the next block every 10 minutes.. even if there are quite a few powerful folks who likely wished bitcoin would stop, including you Snowshow and your handlers, but you have no choice and your disinformation and misinformation attempts are likely not to really help, even if you might experience some short-term feelings of success.

Not only that, but you praise them as if they were heroes, or even deity. I guess it's a some kind of Stockholm syndrome.

Who am I praising exactly?  bitcoin is decentralized. there is no one to praise.. Satoshi is gone.. and if he came back to try to direct bitcoin, no one would listen to him because not even Satoshi is able to change bitcoin... not that he is coming back..   It is quite likely that Satoshi is dead.  therefore, no one is in charge of bitcoin..   bitcoin continues to survive and push on, even though no one is in charge..

go figure.

So, an anonymous guy imagined a number - 21 million, and then he wrote a protocol and set up a system to attribute the units of that number to online addresses. Then people invested an enormous amount of electricity and other economic resources in that system. Then I said: "this is a scam". Because there's nothing in the system from which these people could benefit. And I even gave you a simple empirical test to prove that: show me how can the holders of Bitcoin benefit without someone entering the system? If there's something in the system and this is valuable, then obviously people are able to benefit from that. They are able to benefit from within the system. It's pretty simple. And you know what results this test produces. You know that without someone entering the system, the holders are left with nothing. Which is an indispensable proof that I am right. There's nothing in the system. No value, no resources, nothing. The system is just a means for tricking people out of their value. But you still think I am wrong. You still think there's value in the system. A half a trillion dollars worth of value. Even if you see, with your own eyes, that not a single human being who enters the system cannot benefit from within the system. That they can't even eat an apple if someone from the outside doesn't bring it into the system. How crazy is that?

[Snowshow]

Hi op, am changing your username from "Snowshow" to "Shitshow", this is because, a Snowshow sounds like a serious show but a Shitshow is a funny show that people only watch because they want to have a good laugh.
The subject of your post is enough to make me look away from this post, but because I needed to have a good laugh this morning, I decided to open the thread and read your entire post, and sincerely, am laughing at your level of understanding and ignorance of what bitcoin truly is and represents.
They say what one does not understand is bigger than the person, I can see this in full manifestation on your post.

My simple question to you is?
-Are you smarter than Elon musk of tesla?
-Are you smarter than CZ of binance?
-Are you smarter than Jack of Twitter (previous ceo)?
-Are you smarter than Peter Thiel of PayPal? Who said, and I quote

"The biggest mistake I made in the last decade was getting too late and too little into bitcoin"

-Are you smarter than Robert kiyosaki of rich dad, poor dad?
-Are you smarter than Nayib Bukele, president of El Salvador?
-Are you smarter than the government of America?
-Are you smarter than Vladimir Putin, president of Russia?
-Are you smarter than Volodymyr Zelenskyy, president of Ukraine?
-Are you smarter than the government of the entire world?

The list goes on and on, All this people and government believe in bitcoin's reality, they believe bitcoin is real, and some in the list have heavily invested in bitcoin while others are working hard to regulate its use in their country and around the world.
If all this people believe in bitcoin, who are you to say otherwise and to even try to convince me that bitcoin is not real?

Huh?

How all these questions change the fact that I am talking about? Why are you asking irrelevant questions?

[hZti]

So, there are supposedly more than 18,000,000 of these valuable coins or tokens in the bitcoin system. A half a trillion dollars worth of assets. And yet, all those people that are holding those assets, are unable to even eat an apple or put a single dollar into a pocket if someone doesn't voluntarily enter the system and give them that apple or a dollar.

That is the same for every currency on the planet. You always have to exchange the currency for something else, that is the whole point of it.

[Snowshow]

So, there are supposedly more than 18,000,000 of these valuable coins or tokens in the bitcoin system. A half a trillion dollars worth of assets. And yet, all those people that are holding those assets, are unable to even eat an apple or put a single dollar into a pocket if someone doesn't voluntarily enter the system and give them that apple or a dollar.

That is the same for every currency on the planet. You always have to exchange the currency for something else, that is the whole point of it.

Are you inept or what? I explained to you a dozen times yesterday how the borrowers, who are part of the banking or fiat currency system, provide goods, services and labour to the holders of fiat currencies. And that's how these holders benefit from within the system, that is, without someone entering into the banking system. Fiat currency is debt, and people simply benefit within the system when debt is paid.

[hZti]

Thank you very much that you explained that there is a difference between Bitcoin a Fiat money. I think nobody here knew that 

[Henrobakkara]

EDIT: I started this topic by claiming that Bitcoin is a message similar to SMS, email, etc. But, through the discussion here I realized that this is misleading. Because, Bitcoin is actually not real. It doesn't exist. It doesn't exist like Greek gods don't exist. The reason is simple: whoever enters the Satoshi's system recieves no coins, no bit-coins.  No assets, no money. Nothing tangible nor intangible. Nothing physical nor digital. Instead, people are just paying for numbers to be changed next to their addresses. In economics, a transaction is an instance of buying or selling something. A payment is an instance of transferring a thing that was bought or sold. In the Satoshi's system nothing is bought or sold. Nothing is transferred. Only numbers are changed next to the addresses. So, Bitcoin doesn't exist and the Satoshi's system is not actually a payment system, but a system for changing, storing and protecting numbers.

Satoshi Nacamoto, is probably someone who lacks education or knowledge in finance and economics. For that reason, he wrote a paper in which he falsely assumed that changing numbers is equivalent of performing transactions or payments. Then, people took his paper at face value. They took it without actually questioning or doubting what was written. This lead to the creation of a religious like belief that revolutionary coin came to Earth to free us from corporations and governments.  Given that we live in the age of internet,  the believe was quickly spread throughout the world. As a consequence, people across the globe now believe that they are buying something very precious and scarce. And that the blockchain is an important place where that precious and scarce thing is kept.  While in reality, only numbers attached to the addresses exist. There's no scarcity, but arbitrarily predefined maximum sum of numbers next to the addresses. And the blockchain is nothing important but just a giant database where numeric changes are stored. So a revolutionary digital coin called Bitcoin is not something that is real. It's simply, a myth.

Here's a more detailed explanation: https://youtu.be/jcraRM6vblQ

So who told you or how did you know that putting all the letters together will sort of pass your message or communicate with the people in this forum? you were thought that when you were little and you believed it even if there were just letters and putting them together in some certain way will pass your message. Of cause, there will always be people like you that believe they have missed out on Bitcoin and will say everything negative about it and there are those like us that believe and will continue to HODL on to it regardless of what people like you say, simple.

[Fivestar4everMVP]

~snip~

How all these questions change the fact that I am talking about? Why are you asking irrelevant questions?

Those questions are genuine questions mate, they are not irrelevant, and I was really hoping you did be a man enough to answer them, but No, I know you won't, because the shell of ignorance that you have allowed to wrap itself around you like one who is in a dark room won't allow you see the light around you and come to terms with reality, you probably would continue to wallow in your own ignorance and self deception thinking you are doing yourself and your generation good, not knowing this is your biggest mistake... Though this is not my prayer for you, my prayer for you is that the shells that have blocked covered your sense of what's happening around you should fall off, so that you will come to the realization that the world's monetary system is fast changing and bitcoin is leading that change, and the sooner you realize this, the better for you and those around you.

[Snowshow]

Thank you very much that you explained that there is a difference between Bitcoin a Fiat money. I think nobody here knew that 

Hahaha. That's literally crazy. You just said, and I quote: "That is the same for every currency on the planet"., when I said this:

"... all those people that are holding those assets, are unable to even eat an apple or put a single dollar into a pocket if someone doesn't voluntarily enter the system and give them that apple or a dollar."

Then I explained that you are wrong because the borrowers are not entering the system, but they are the part of the banking system, they are the ones that need to pay the debt evidenced with deposits and banknotes.

And now, you're saying that you knew that. Even though you demonstrated clearly in your previous answer that you didn't. So, what's wrong with you?

[Snowshow]

~snip~

How all these questions change the fact that I am talking about? Why are you asking irrelevant questions?

Those questions are genuine questions mate, they are not irrelevant, and I was really hoping you did be a man enough to answer them, but No, I know you won't, because the shell of ignorance that you have allowed to wrap itself around you like one who is in a dark room won't allow you see the light around you and come to terms with reality, you probably would continue to wallow in your own ignorance and self deception thinking you are doing yourself and your generation good, not knowing this is your biggest mistake... Though this is not my prayer for you, my prayer for you is that the shells that have blocked covered your sense of what's happening around you should fall off, so that you will come to the realization that the world's monetary system is fast changing and bitcoin is leading that change, and the sooner you realize this, the better for you and those around you.

The questions are completely irrelevant. There will still be nothing in the bitcoin system regardless of what I answer. And I am simply saying that nothing exists in the bitcoin system, no value, no resources, no asset, nothing digital, nothing tangible. Simply nothing. And I am right. That's why someone has to bring something from the outside of the system to save the holders from the scam they put themselves in.

[hZti]

I just hope that you don't discuss like that in real live, otherwise its very like that at some point somebody knocks you out

[Snowshow]

I just hope that you don't discuss like that in real live, otherwise its very like that at some point somebody knocks you out

And I just hope that I saved you from the bitcoin scam.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

So, an anonymous guy imagined a number - 21 million,

As I already mentioned the number is mostly irrelevant because the units are divisible.. and so surely the number 21 million ends up working from 50 coins mined every 10 minutes and then a difficulty adjustment every 2016 blocks (about every two weeks) and a halvening every 210k blocks (which would thereby take about 4 years).. so by the time the first halvening takes place - half of the bitcoins are already mined which adds up to 10.5million coins.. and by the time we get a halvening every 4 years and we add up all of the halvenings by the time we get down to the smallest unit, we have 21 million coins by that time.  

Surely other numbers could have worked out too.. but it really did not matter too much.. but once it was set, then it was set.. and the only real way to perhaps increase the supply would be to increase the number of digits.. which is not really increasing the supply but instead making the existing units more divisible.

It seems that I also already addressed the anonymity matter too, which seems to be a good thing in terms of establishing decentralization.. and getting the ball rolling in a pretty fair way.

Such guy has no control over bitcoin anymore ---at least not that we know of because we do not know if he might still be involved in bitcoin because like you said, he's anonymous.. amazing right?  hahahahaha.. no one to attack and blame, except in the abstract like you are doing Snowshow.. to try to make the whole thing seem more scary than it is.. which is far from convincing... no matter how much you scream it out and/or repeat it..

and then he wrote a protocol and set up a system to attribute the units of that number to online addresses. Then people invested an enormous amount of electricity and other economic resources in that system.

Ok... sure.. fair enough, even though the amount of electricity or the amount of resources put into bitcoin is not really enormous based on the value provided... and also the decisions about whether to buy electricity and invest resources are at the individual level (referring to miners and node operators)

Then I said: "this is a scam". Because there's nothing in the system from which these people could benefit.

Individuals make their own calculations about whether they believe that they can benefit or not by participating in bitcoin at whatever level they want to.. whether they want to mine, run a node, develop, accumulate bitcoin, trade bitcoin, build other resources around bitcoin, spend bitcoin or develop retail services to accept bitcoin, develop financial instruments around bitcoin, or even government recognition and adoption.  No one is forcing anyone to get involved in bitcoin, but bitcoin has built in incentives to inspire people to choose to invest time and resources into bitcoin.  Surely, some people have already profited from bitcoin and some people have lost money too... but what else is new.. some people are better at investing their time and resources than others.

Sure, there could end up being a rug pull at any time in bitcoin, but the momentum (and various network effects) seems to be continuing to build on an ongoing basis... You can bet against bitcoin and say nothing is there, but the empirical facts (and even logic) seem to be going against you and your claims Snowshow ..

And I even gave you a simple empirical test to prove that: show me how can the holders of Bitcoin benefit without someone entering the system? If there's something in the system and this is valuable, then obviously people are able to benefit from that.

Your test seems to be pie in the sky made up bullshit.. with made up parameters.

Do you know what that is called?  A strawman argument.  

Bitcoin already shows itself to be valuable in all kinds of ways, there is no need to jump through your made up hoops in order to concede that value could only come through your way of measuring value.

In other words, the longer that bitcoin is around, the more and more it interacts with other systems and embeds into other systems - and value comes from that too... even if at some point, bitcoin ends up completely going to zero and showing itself as some kind of a vacuous system that never ever ended up having any value (as you continue to proclaim).

They are able to benefit from within the system. It's pretty simple. And you know what results this test produces. You know that without someone entering the system, the holders are left with nothing. Which is an indispensable proof that I am right.

You can be right all that you want, and you will have fun staying poor the whole time, too.

   

By the way, you can choose to get into bitcoin now, or you can choose to get into bitcoin later.

For sure, many of us longer term bitcoiners recommend that nocoiners get the fuck off of zero.. so in that regard, if you are a BIG ASS bitcoin skeptic, then maybe you would just invest 1% of your investment portfolio into it.. Sure, that might not be a lot of value, but at least you end up having some stake in the game.

Historically, I had recommended that new entrants into bitcoin start out with somewhere between 1% and 10% of their investment portfolio into bitcoin, and then of course, they can tailorize their investment level once they learn more about bitcoin.  In the past year and a half or more. I have been gravitating towards suggesting that the starting out investment range could safely be in the 1% to 25% level  because bitcoin's investment thesis seems to have had gotten stronger .. especially after some of the events around March 2020 and even some of the various monetary reactions to both the March 2020 liquidity issues and various matters related to the pandemic and also some of the new stuff around wide-spread freezing accounts... whether at the individual/institutional level such as the Canadian trucker situation.. but also around the recent freezing of Russian accounts (government level, associated banks and even targeting of institutions and individuals too).

There's nothing in the system. No value, no resources, nothing.

You seem to be blind.

The system is just a means for tricking people out of their value.

I am still waiting for when this supposed rug pull is going to come.  I have ONLY been in bitcoin for about 8.5 years, so I will admit that my first few years had some of my value in the negative.. but I largely continued to invest during my first few years to continue to accumulate bitcoin, so surely some profits have already been taken out - and there are people with all kinds of variations in their having had already profited by being involved in bitcoin.

It seems that the longer that you have been in, the more likely that the value invested has decent chances of compounding.. even though for sure there are no guarantees, and surely, as already mentioned, there are all kinds of ways that people can choose to invest their time and value into bitcoin.... or choose to refrain which you proclaim your lil selfie to be doing and to recommend for others.. which hopefully there are not too many people dumb enough to follow your likely to be ongoing loser recommendation in this regard.

I guess part of the point that I was intending to make earlier is that you can come into bitcoin at any time, and still likely be able to profit from getting involved in bitcoin, and sure it is quite likely that some of the monetary gains (on a percentage basis) are likely to NOT have as large of an exponential curve in the future, but the fact that bitcoin remains quite early in its development and adoption phases, there still seems to remain quite a bit of upside potential in terms of steepness of the price performance curve.. so surely, it remains your choice about whether to get in or when to get in or how much to get in, and there surely seems to be some value in getting started getting in sooner rather than waiting or spending a lot of time complaining about how bitcoin supposedly has no value.. that kind of seemingly chosen blindness (to the extent that anyone could actually believe that kind of nonsense rather than just be making it up because they are so scared) is not helping you or anyone else for that matter.

In other words, you seem to be fighting a kind of inevitable uppity of bitcoin, even if there is likely to continue to be ups and downs on the ongoing likely UPpity bitcoin path in terms of various adoption (network effect) and including the reflection of ongoing UPpity movement in BTC prices.. even if it might take a while to play out.

But you still think I am wrong.

Yep.

You still think there's value in the system.

Both logic and facts seem to support ongoing existing value and also ongoing increasing value too.

A half a trillion dollars worth of value.

Well if value equals price, then sure...

Part of the reason that bitcoin remains ongoingly volatile, and perhaps one of its most inevitable features happens to be volatility is because there continue to be disagreements about whether BTC's price reflects value.. and so differences of opinion (in the market) result in some of the price battles and even the striving to push the BTC price down or up, depending upon how you might be playing.. if you are a big enough player who believes s/he can move the markets.

Sure, retail momentum can also play into BTC's price direction too.  Of course, there are some folks who buy and sell bitcoin blindly without consulting the price, and there are others who might try to time the short or medium movements in the BTC price.  Quite a bit of behavior goes into establishing the price and maybe causing the BTC price to go in one direction or another.  If you believe that BTC is overvalued at half a trillion or whatever it is, then you either won't buy it or you might sell what you have or you might even bet against it.  

You may or may not be correct, but hopefully, when you are trying to figure out whether to take a stake in bitcoin, you are trying to account for a variety of your own personal factors, and view about the direction of the BTC price as compared with other assets remains only one of the factors.  Other factors include your own cashflow, other investments, timeline, risk tolerance, time, skills and abilities to study, learn, plan, strategize and tweak from time to time which may also include reallocations, trading or the use of leverage or financial instruments.

Even if you see, with your own eyes, that not a single human being who enters the system cannot benefit from within the system. That they can't even eat an apple if someone from the outside doesn't bring it into the system. How crazy is that?

It's crazy because it does not matter.  People exchange value within bitcoins system and also people exchange value with bitcoin to interact with outside systems.  You are making up shit regarding what ifs that do not even play out within the real dynamics that are determining bitcoin's ongoing value and ongoing increasing value with the ongoing building of network effects including tick tock the next block every 10 minutes.. which is fucking valuable, if you think about the fact that no one can stop bitcoin, even if they were to want to .. which in the end, they do not want to invest as many resources into stopping bitcoin as to just let it continue to produce blocks every 10 minutes.  Bitcoin is here and continuing to build.. so you can jump on the train or stay on the sidelines and continue to poo-poo bitcoin as if it does not exist.  That's your choice.. bitcoin is for friends and for enemies, and none of us can stop you from involving yourself with bitcoin (beyond just talking negative about it) in whatever way that you would like.. or just refrain, if that's what you choose to do.

~snip~

How all these questions change the fact that I am talking about? Why are you asking irrelevant questions?

Those questions are genuine questions mate, they are not irrelevant, and I was really hoping you did be a man enough to answer them, but No, I know you won't, because the shell of ignorance that you have allowed to wrap itself around you like one who is in a dark room won't allow you see the light around you and come to terms with reality, you probably would continue to wallow in your own ignorance and self deception thinking you are doing yourself and your generation good, not knowing this is your biggest mistake... Though this is not my prayer for you, my prayer for you is that the shells that have blocked covered your sense of what's happening around you should fall off, so that you will come to the realization that the world's monetary system is fast changing and bitcoin is leading that change, and the sooner you realize this, the better for you and those around you.

The questions are completely irrelevant. There will still be nothing in the bitcoin system regardless of what I answer. And I am simply saying that nothing exists in the bitcoin system, no value, no resources, no asset, nothing digital, nothing tangible. Simply nothing. And I am right. That's why someone has to bring something from the outside of the system to save the holders from the scam they put themselves in.

Perhaps there is a way to just play along with you for a while Snowshow.

For argument sake, we could concede that intrinsically bitcoin has nothing of value contained there in.. it is starting from.. nothing, nada, nichts, la shayy, nichego, Méiyǒu, kuchh nahin, rien, nashi, hiç bir şey, không có gì.

So even if bitcoin starts from nothing, people start to put resources into bitcoin such as mining it (electricity as you had conceded) but also manpower and production of dedicated computers, they put time and energy into developing it, they build various kinds of systems around it as ways to trade it and to speculate on its price and to store it.

I would speculate that the various ways to put value into bitcoin whether time or money or resources, ends up creating value, no?  Some of that value could be fleeting but some of that value could be sticky, too, and if there might end up being utility in using such bitcoin systems (such as keeping track of transactions in a way that is superior to prior methods because there are higher levels of objectivity in the ledger), then the present value may well increase and increase and there may well be speculation regarding future value based in part of present value, current developments and speculations regarding future developments, building and utility.

It seems that some kind of a system that has no intrinsic value would be able to develop present and future value based on various kinds of ongoing inputs into the system and also ways in which such systems that are bitcoin or built on or around bitcoin will become increasingly known, including that some folks may well start to speculate that such bitcoin system has superior ways of holding or building value as compared with other systems that they know, which may well cause some momentum that contributes to the value of a previously intrinsically zero product/project to be growing in value.

[Snowshow]

[edited out]

So, an anonymous guy imagined a number - 21 million,

As I already mentioned the number is mostly irrelevant because the units are divisible.. and so surely the number 21 million ends up working from 50 coins mined every 10 minutes and then a difficulty adjustment every 2016 blocks (about every two weeks) and a halvening every 210k blocks (which would thereby take about 4 years).. so by the time the first halvening takes place - half of the bitcoins are already mined which adds up to 10.5million coins.. and by the time we get a halvening every 4 years and we add up all of the halvenings by the time we get down to the smallest unit, we have 21 million coins by that time.  

Surely other numbers could have worked out too.. but it really did not matter too much.. but once it was set, then it was set.. and the only real way to perhaps increase the supply would be to increase the number of digits.. which is not really increasing the supply but instead making the existing units more divisible.

It seems that I also already addressed the anonymity matter too, which seems to be a good thing in terms of establishing decentralization.. and getting the ball rolling in a pretty fair way.

Such guy has no control over bitcoin anymore ---at least not that we know of because we do not know if he might still be involved in bitcoin because like you said, he's anonymous.. amazing right?  hahahahaha.. no one to attack and blame, except in the abstract like you are doing Snowshow.. to try to make the whole thing seem more scary than it is.. which is far from convincing... no matter how much you scream it out and/or repeat it..

and then he wrote a protocol and set up a system to attribute the units of that number to online addresses. Then people invested an enormous amount of electricity and other economic resources in that system.

Ok... sure.. fair enough, even though the amount of electricity or the amount of resources put into bitcoin is not really enormous based on the value provided... and also the decisions about whether to buy electricity and invest resources are at the individual level (referring to miners and node operators)

Then I said: "this is a scam". Because there's nothing in the system from which these people could benefit.

Individuals make their own calculations about whether they believe that they can benefit or not by participating in bitcoin at whatever level they want to.. whether they want to mine, run a node, develop, accumulate bitcoin, trade bitcoin, build other resources around bitcoin, spend bitcoin or develop retail services to accept bitcoin, develop financial instruments around bitcoin, or even government recognition and adoption.  No one is forcing anyone to get involved in bitcoin, but bitcoin has built in incentives to inspire people to choose to invest time and resources into bitcoin.  Surely, some people have already profited from bitcoin and some people have lost money too... but what else is new.. some people are better at investing their time and resources than others.

Sure, there could end up being a rug pull at any time in bitcoin, but the momentum (and various network effects) seems to be continuing to build on an ongoing basis... You can bet against bitcoin and say nothing is there, but the empirical facts (and even logic) seem to be going against you and your claims Snowshow ..

And I even gave you a simple empirical test to prove that: show me how can the holders of Bitcoin benefit without someone entering the system? If there's something in the system and this is valuable, then obviously people are able to benefit from that.

Your test seems to be pie in the sky made up bullshit.. with made up parameters.

Do you know what that is called?  A strawman argument.  

Bitcoin already shows itself to be valuable in all kinds of ways, there is no need to jump through your made up hoops in order to concede that value could only come through your way of measuring value.

In other words, the longer that bitcoin is around, the more and more it interacts with other systems and embeds into other systems - and value comes from that too... even if at some point, bitcoin ends up completely going to zero and showing itself as some kind of a vacuous system that never ever ended up having any value (as you continue to proclaim).

They are able to benefit from within the system. It's pretty simple. And you know what results this test produces. You know that without someone entering the system, the holders are left with nothing. Which is an indispensable proof that I am right.

You can be right all that you want, and you will have fun staying poor the whole time, too.

   

By the way, you can choose to get into bitcoin now, or you can choose to get into bitcoin later.

For sure, many of us longer term bitcoiners recommend that nocoiners get the fuck off of zero.. so in that regard, if you are a BIG ASS bitcoin skeptic, then maybe you would just invest 1% of your investment portfolio into it.. Sure, that might not be a lot of value, but at least you end up having some stake in the game.

Historically, I had recommended that new entrants into bitcoin start out with somewhere between 1% and 10% of their investment portfolio into bitcoin, and then of course, they can tailorize their investment level once they learn more about bitcoin.  In the past year and a half or more. I have been gravitating towards suggesting that the starting out investment range could safely be in the 1% to 25% level  because bitcoin's investment thesis seems to have had gotten stronger .. especially after some of the events around March 2020 and even some of the various monetary reactions to both the March 2020 liquidity issues and various matters related to the pandemic and also some of the new stuff around wide-spread freezing accounts... whether at the individual/institutional level such as the Canadian trucker situation.. but also around the recent freezing of Russian accounts (government level, associated banks and even targeting of institutions and individuals too).

There's nothing in the system. No value, no resources, nothing.

You seem to be blind.

The system is just a means for tricking people out of their value.

I am still waiting for when this supposed rug pull is going to come.  I have ONLY been in bitcoin for about 8.5 years, so I will admit that my first few years had some of my value in the negative.. but I largely continued to invest during my first few years to continue to accumulate bitcoin, so surely some profits have already been taken out - and there are people with all kinds of variations in their having had already profited by being involved in bitcoin.

It seems that the longer that you have been in, the more likely that the value invested has decent chances of compounding.. even though for sure there are no guarantees, and surely, as already mentioned, there are all kinds of ways that people can choose to invest their time and value into bitcoin.... or choose to refrain which you proclaim your lil selfie to be doing and to recommend for others.. which hopefully there are not too many people dumb enough to follow your likely to be ongoing loser recommendation in this regard.

I guess part of the point that I was intending to make earlier is that you can come into bitcoin at any time, and still likely be able to profit from getting involved in bitcoin, and sure it is quite likely that some of the monetary gains (on a percentage basis) are likely to NOT have as large of an exponential curve in the future, but the fact that bitcoin remains quite early in its development and adoption phases, there still seems to remain quite a bit of upside potential in terms of steepness of the price performance curve.. so surely, it remains your choice about whether to get in or when to get in or how much to get in, and there surely seems to be some value in getting started getting in sooner rather than waiting or spending a lot of time complaining about how bitcoin supposedly has no value.. that kind of seemingly chosen blindness (to the extent that anyone could actually believe that kind of nonsense rather than just be making it up because they are so scared) is not helping you or anyone else for that matter.

In other words, you seem to be fighting a kind of inevitable uppity of bitcoin, even if there is likely to continue to be ups and downs on the ongoing likely UPpity bitcoin path in terms of various adoption (network effect) and including the reflection of ongoing UPpity movement in BTC prices.. even if it might take a while to play out.

But you still think I am wrong.

Yep.

You still think there's value in the system.

Both logic and facts seem to support ongoing existing value and also ongoing increasing value too.

A half a trillion dollars worth of value.

Well if value equals price, then sure...

Part of the reason that bitcoin remains ongoingly volatile, and perhaps one of its most inevitable features happens to be volatility is because there continue to be disagreements about whether BTC's price reflects value.. and so differences of opinion (in the market) result in some of the price battles and even the striving to push the BTC price down or up, depending upon how you might be playing.. if you are a big enough player who believes s/he can move the markets.

Sure, retail momentum can also play into BTC's price direction too.  Of course, there are some folks who buy and sell bitcoin blindly without consulting the price, and there are others who might try to time the short or medium movements in the BTC price.  Quite a bit of behavior goes into establishing the price and maybe causing the BTC price to go in one direction or another.  If you believe that BTC is overvalued at half a trillion or whatever it is, then you either won't buy it or you might sell what you have or you might even bet against it.  

You may or may not be correct, but hopefully, when you are trying to figure out whether to take a stake in bitcoin, you are trying to account for a variety of your own personal factors, and view about the direction of the BTC price as compared with other assets remains only one of the factors.  Other factors include your own cashflow, other investments, timeline, risk tolerance, time, skills and abilities to study, learn, plan, strategize and tweak from time to time which may also include reallocations, trading or the use of leverage or financial instruments.

Even if you see, with your own eyes, that not a single human being who enters the system cannot benefit from within the system. That they can't even eat an apple if someone from the outside doesn't bring it into the system. How crazy is that?

It's crazy because it does not matter.  People exchange value within bitcoins system and also people exchange value with bitcoin to interact with outside systems.  You are making up shit regarding what ifs that do not even play out within the real dynamics that are determining bitcoin's ongoing value and ongoing increasing value with the ongoing building of network effects including tick tock the next block every 10 minutes.. which is fucking valuable, if you think about the fact that no one can stop bitcoin, even if they were to want to .. which in the end, they do not want to invest as many resources into stopping bitcoin as to just let it continue to produce blocks every 10 minutes.  Bitcoin is here and continuing to build.. so you can jump on the train or stay on the sidelines and continue to poo-poo bitcoin as if it does not exist.  That's your choice.. bitcoin is for friends and for enemies, and none of us can stop you from involving yourself with bitcoin (beyond just talking negative about it) in whatever way that you would like.. or just refrain, if that's what you choose to do.

~snip~

How all these questions change the fact that I am talking about? Why are you asking irrelevant questions?

Those questions are genuine questions mate, they are not irrelevant, and I was really hoping you did be a man enough to answer them, but No, I know you won't, because the shell of ignorance that you have allowed to wrap itself around you like one who is in a dark room won't allow you see the light around you and come to terms with reality, you probably would continue to wallow in your own ignorance and self deception thinking you are doing yourself and your generation good, not knowing this is your biggest mistake... Though this is not my prayer for you, my prayer for you is that the shells that have blocked covered your sense of what's happening around you should fall off, so that you will come to the realization that the world's monetary system is fast changing and bitcoin is leading that change, and the sooner you realize this, the better for you and those around you.

The questions are completely irrelevant. There will still be nothing in the bitcoin system regardless of what I answer. And I am simply saying that nothing exists in the bitcoin system, no value, no resources, no asset, nothing digital, nothing tangible. Simply nothing. And I am right. That's why someone has to bring something from the outside of the system to save the holders from the scam they put themselves in.

Perhaps there is a way to just play along with you for a while Snowshow.

For argument sake, we could concede that intrinsically bitcoin has nothing of value contained there in.. it is starting from.. nothing, nada, nichts, la shayy, nichego, Méiyǒu, kuchh nahin, rien, nashi, hiç bir şey, không có gì.

So even if bitcoin starts from nothing, people start to put resources into bitcoin such as mining it (electricity as you had conceded) but also manpower and production of dedicated computers, they put time and energy into developing it, they build various kinds of systems around it as ways to trade it and to speculate on its price and to store it.

I would speculate that the various ways to put value into bitcoin whether time or money or resources, ends up creating value, no?  Some of that value could be fleeting but some of that value could be sticky, too, and if there might end up being utility in using such bitcoin systems (such as keeping track of transactions in a way that is superior to prior methods because there are higher levels of objectivity in the ledger), then the present value may well increase and increase and there may well be speculation regarding future value based in part of present value, current developments and speculations regarding future developments, building and utility.

It seems that some kind of a system that has no intrinsic value would be able to develop present and future value based on various kinds of ongoing inputs into the system and also ways in which such systems that are bitcoin or built on or around bitcoin will become increasingly known, including that some folks may well start to speculate that such bitcoin system has superior ways of holding or building value as compared with other systems that they know, which may well cause some momentum that contributes to the value of a previously intrinsically zero product/project to be growing in value.

So, how can you benefit from your precious bitcoins if no one new enters into the system?

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

So, how can you benefit from your precious bitcoins if no one new enters into the system?

You are presuming a fact that does not exist.

If no one wants to invest into bitcoin or inject capital into bitcoin, then the presumption is that bitcoin goes to zero, and I would be stuck with whatever amount of value that I had invested.

I will agree with you Snowshow, that anything is possible, including the scenario that you present.

However, I will also state the case that any kind of investment that we make into anything, whether bitcoin or any other asset/currency, we should try our best to invest based on the various probabilities that we assign to various scenarios, and so maybe the scenario that you outline has about a .001% chance of happening at best, so my investment should account for that.

Now if you are making the mistake of assigning 1% to 10% probabilities to the scenario that you outline, then I would suggest that you are way overassigning such a probability to such an event that is way less probable than you are making it out to be.  

If we take you at your word Snowshow, and you are actually genuinely worried about the non-existence of bitcoin (and therefore its non-value) then you seem to be engaging in even a worse fallacy than the one that I have outlined above because you seem to be placing some higher level of likelihood that bitcoin is either non-existent or worth zero... you seem to be assigning way higher odds than 10% .. maybe greater than 50%.. or even you are talking as if you are 100% sure.. which surely causes you to appear like a looney when you are likely presenting a scenario to be 100% true when in the real world that seems to be outside of your grasp your scenario is more likely to only have about a .001% chance at best of being true.  

Of course, you can proclaim that I am the one who is delusional with my assignment of .001% odds at best, and surely we should be able to agree to disagree, and I might even concede that I got my odds right, and I gave .001% odds to a scenario that had really had 5% odds, but I am not going to go higher than that, and for sure, I am just giving the benefit of the doubt to even say that the odds could be as high as 5%... for sure I am not going into your looney land assignment of odds that seem to be approaching somewhere in the ballpark of certainty that you claim to know more than other people based on your profound brain abilities... or something like that.

You are really going to get fucked if you are really investing in that kind  of a way because bitcoin continues to be one of the best upside asymmetrical bets that have ever been available to normies (presuming that you may well be a normie).  In other words, you do not even need to invest much in bitcoin in order to have the potential to financially profit stupendously and yeah, we can poo-poo profits all that we like, but the essence of the matter is that if you have profits, then you have options and you can choose however you like to use those profits or not to use them.  If you do not have profits then you presumptively have fewer options.

I can even provide a brief overview of my own investment into bitcoin that started in late 2013.  Initially, I did not really know what bitcoin was and I thought that it might be a good hedge against the dollar, so my initial allocation into bitcoin was intended to be invested over the next 6 months while I looked into the matter.  After my first 6 months investing into bitcoin, I pretty much decided to provide myself with another 6 months that had a similar allocation as the first 6 months, and so by the time I got to the end of my first year investing into bitcoin, I had been studying and considering the matter and towards the end of the second 6 months, I decided that I would aim for an allocation that would be about 10% of what I considered to be the value of the quasi-liquid portions of my total investment portfolio.  

Towards the end of 2014, I had pretty much reached my 10% allocation, so at that point, I had considered myself to have had been sufficiently allocated into bitcoin and there was really no need to allocate more than that... however, many of us realize that the end of 2014 and the whole of 2015 saw BTC prices that had bottomed out and had stayed pretty much in the mid-$200s for most of that time.

The punchline is largely that I had decided to largely just continue dollar cost average investing into bitcoin through 2014 and 2015 and by the time the end of 2015 came, I had ended up overallocating into bitcoin because my amount had reached about 13.5%... so in that sense, it seemed to me that overallocated had given me options to be able to have flexibility with that extra 3.5% that I had into bitcoin... - nonetheless, BTC's price performance between late 2015 and 2017 had largely been UP, so in that sense I had reconsidered the way that I would manage my BTC holdings in such a way to just allow my winners (meaning BTC) to ride rather than reallocating.. and so largely that has meant for me that my BTC holdings had gone up to nearly 90% of my overall holdings and then corrected back down to 45% and then returned back to somewhere in the 80% and 90% arena..

Sure, I engaged in some other portfolio managing practices along the way, but in the end, the BTC holdings end up giving more options because it's no real skin off of my back because all along I pretty much already authorized myself to allocate up to 10% and then I just allowed my extra 3.5% allocation just to continue to ride.. and sure it seems that I have had various times of shaving off various profits at various places along the way.. and it seems to me that any of the profits that i had been shaving off had mostly been in connection with the 3.5% extra allocation. and not even really meaningfully depleting that amount because it is already allocated and it is drawn from from time to time when needed.. or just when wanted or just  giving more options.

Another thing would be for me to consider if there might be some need to reallocate some of the BTC.. and to maybe give greater weight to the various going to zero scenarios, and sure some of the shavings off of profits might end up  going into various other kinds of investments like property and some other quality of life matters (that might end up falling into the category of consumption rather than investment), so yeah, maybe perspectives evolve with time and how many additional options might have come from the degree to which profits are present and how those profits have been managed including accounting for various other aspects of life that include making sure that cashflow, expenses and even emergency funds are available too.  .. even during periods in which BTC's price performance (and direction) seems to be going down rather than up.

[Snowshow]

[edited out]

So, how can you benefit from your precious bitcoins if no one new enters into the system?

You are presuming a fact that does not exist.

If no one wants to invest into bitcoin or inject capital into bitcoin, then the presumption is that bitcoin goes to zero, and I would be stuck with whatever amount of value that I had invested.

I will agree with you Snowshow, that anything is possible, including the scenario that you present.

However, I will also state the case that any kind of investment that we make into anything, whether bitcoin or any other asset/currency, we should try our best to invest based on the various probabilities that we assign to various scenarios, and so maybe the scenario that you outline has about a .001% chance of happening at best, so my investment should account for that.

Now if you are making the mistake of assigning 1% to 10% probabilities to the scenario that you outline, then I would suggest that you are way overassigning such a probability to such an event that is way less probable than you are making it out to be.  

If we take you at your word Snowshow, and you are actually genuinely worried about the non-existence of bitcoin (and therefore its non-value) then you seem to be engaging in even a worse fallacy than the one that I have outlined above because you seem to be placing some higher level of likelihood that bitcoin is either non-existent or worth zero... you seem to be assigning way higher odds than 10% .. maybe greater than 50%.. or even you are talking as if you are 100% sure.. which surely causes you to appear like a looney when you are likely presenting a scenario to be 100% true when in the real world that seems to be outside of your grasp your scenario is more likely to only have about a .001% chance at best of being true.  

Of course, you can proclaim that I am the one who is delusional with my assignment of .001% odds at best, and surely we should be able to agree to disagree, and I might even concede that I got my odds right, and I gave .001% odds to a scenario that had really had 5% odds, but I am not going to go higher than that, and for sure, I am just giving the benefit of the doubt to even say that the odds could be as high as 5%... for sure I am not going into your looney land assignment of odds that seem to be approaching somewhere in the ballpark of certainty that you claim to know more than other people based on your profound brain abilities... or something like that.

You are really going to get fucked if you are really investing in that kind  of a way because bitcoin continues to be one of the best upside asymmetrical bets that have ever been available to normies (presuming that you may well be a normie).  In other words, you do not even need to invest much in bitcoin in order to have the potential to financially profit stupendously and yeah, we can poo-poo profits all that we like, but the essence of the matter is that if you have profits, then you have options and you can choose however you like to use those profits or not to use them.  If you do not have profits then you presumptively have fewer options.

I can even provide a brief overview of my own investment into bitcoin that started in late 2013.  Initially, I did not really know what bitcoin was and I thought that it might be a good hedge against the dollar, so my initial allocation into bitcoin was intended to be invested over the next 6 months while I looked into the matter.  After my first 6 months investing into bitcoin, I pretty much decided to provide myself with another 6 months that had a similar allocation as the first 6 months, and so by the time I got to the end of my first year investing into bitcoin, I had been studying and considering the matter and towards the end of the second 6 months, I decided that I would aim for an allocation that would be about 10% of what I considered to be the value of the quasi-liquid portions of my total investment portfolio.  

Towards the end of 2014, I had pretty much reached my 10% allocation, so at that point, I had considered myself to have had been sufficiently allocated into bitcoin and there was really no need to allocate more than that... however, many of us realize that the end of 2014 and the whole of 2015 saw BTC prices that had bottomed out and had stayed pretty much in the mid-$200s for most of that time.

The punchline is largely that I had decided to largely just continue dollar cost average investing into bitcoin through 2014 and 2015 and by the time the end of 2015 came, I had ended up overallocating into bitcoin because my amount had reached about 13.5%... so in that sense, it seemed to me that overallocated had given me options to be able to have flexibility with that extra 3.5% that I had into bitcoin... - nonetheless, BTC's price performance between late 2015 and 2017 had largely been UP, so in that sense I had reconsidered the way that I would manage my BTC holdings in such a way to just allow my winners (meaning BTC) to ride rather than reallocating.. and so largely that has meant for me that my BTC holdings had gone up to nearly 90% of my overall holdings and then corrected back down to 45% and then returned back to somewhere in the 80% and 90% arena..

Sure, I engaged in some other portfolio managing practices along the way, but in the end, the BTC holdings end up giving more options because it's no real skin off of my back because all along I pretty much already authorized myself to allocate up to 10% and then I just allowed my extra 3.5% allocation just to continue to ride.. and sure it seems that I have had various times of shaving off various profits at various places along the way.. and it seems to me that any of the profits that i had been shaving off had mostly been in connection with the 3.5% extra allocation. and not even really meaningfully depleting that amount because it is already allocated and it is drawn from from time to time when needed.. or just when wanted or just  giving more options.

Another thing would be for me to consider if there might be some need to reallocate some of the BTC.. and to maybe give greater weight to the various going to zero scenarios, and sure some of the shavings off of profits might end up  going into various other kinds of investments like property and some other quality of life matters (that might end up falling into the category of consumption rather than investment), so yeah, maybe perspectives evolve with time and how many additional options might have come from the degree to which profits are present and how those profits have been managed including accounting for various other aspects of life that include making sure that cashflow, expenses and even emergency funds are available too.  .. even during periods in which BTC's price performance (and direction) seems to be going down rather than up.

It seems you didn't understand the question. You're responding by talking about Bitcoin as an "asset", a "currency" - which is a type of asset. You're also using the phrase "investing in Bitcoin", or "value of Bitcoin". So, I am going to ask a question in a different way. An asset is a resource from which people can benefit. The word "investing" means investing into something from which people can benefit. While the word "value", obviously, also means something from which people can benefit. Now, how can a "thing" which exists in the bitcoin system, whatever that "thing" is, be either an asset, or have value, if not a single human being on Earth, after entering that system, is able to benefit. But instead, someone from the outside of the system must bring either goods/services/labor - which benefit people through consumption, or, someone has to bring in the bank deposits or banknots which grant access to borrower's goods/services/labor. Namely, these borrowers are forced by the banks (via collateral) to trade their goods/services/labor for the deposits and banknotes to be able to settle the debt created when they were granted loans. So, how can "something" in the bitcoin system be called an asset or value, if not a single human being who enters that system is able to benefit inside that system. And how then, is the usage of words "asset" and "value", when referring to a "thing" inside the bitcoin system, not a language manipulation that has purpose of tricking people into the system in which they cannot benefit, and scam them out of goods, services, labour or bank deposits and banknotes from which they can benefit - as explained above?

[hZti]

IF you want to educate yourself before making claims about currency I advise you to read here: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/currency.asp

Currency is a medium of exchange for goods and services.

Meaning there is no benefit in a currency before you exchange it meaning you get new people in the system.

A key characteristic of modern money is that it is uniformly worthless in itself.

It is the same for Bitcoin, Dollar, Euro etc.

The exchange rate is the current value of any currency in exchange for another currency.

Meaning the value of bitcoin is quite high even if you do not believe it. The value is derived from the amount of people that want to enter the system.