How Satoshi Nakamoto Fooled the World

[hZti]

So, bitcoin doesn't have powers to do something, or to benefit someone.

That is not the case since bitcoin is an anonymous store of wealth that can be send worldwide and transported written on a paper. With the rest what you wrote I agree, the only difference is that I understand that the user case that I described as a anonymous payment system results in the value of bitcoin. Other then that there is no value stored in bitcoin that is true, but that is obvious to everyone since bitcoin only consist of numbers (like your online banking also at least in germany, since onlinebanking does not store money but is a written duty for the bank to give you money if you want it)

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[BlackHatCoiner]

So, I'll ask you once again: where do you see value in the bitcoin system if not a single bitcoin holder can return even a dime worth of investment without new investors?

And yet, it's been told to you, thousands of times. Here are a few for emphasis:

I still benefit from censorship resistant transactions if no new participants join.
I still benefit from psudonymous levels of privacy if no new participants join.
I still benefit from the strength and security of the network if no new participants join.

Because the network itself is a tangible resource.  Real people running software on real devices.  Ensuring that every single transaction in every last block conforms to the rules of the protocol.  All of that infrastructure exists.  And you need bitcoin (the currency/asset) to benefit from Bitcoin (the network).  The value is real and it's only the willfully ignorant who are unable to see it.

You can benefit from the security and the anonymity of the system. One crypto owner can buy a good from another crypto owner and therefor both benefit from the bitcoin system. There is no need for a new buyer to enter the bitcoin ecosystem.

Back to the rest of your question.  I can send you $100,000 worth of Bitcoin without a third party interfering with our transaction and requesting documents for identification and proof for source of funds.

I can move $1,000,000,000 abroad without making anyone notice that I did.  It is a transaction stored in a public and transparent legder, but pseudonymity makes it so that there is no clear evidence of who I am and with enough privacy and care, I can make it close to impossible with the current knowledge, information and technology to link the transaction to my identity.

I can purchase a ton of goods using Bitcoin directly, at my own will, even by physically shopping and checking out in a similar way to credit card payments.  Only without banks.

I can store information directly on the blockchain.

I can use my own resources and energy to 'generate' or, as we say, mine Bitcoin at my own will.

These are just a few of the things I can do with Bitcoin.  This is how I benefit from it.  Tell me where exactly is the 'new investors' part in any of the five scenarios I have mentioned above.  Exactly, there is not.

Then I think value is actually subjective.  If all of a sudden nobody thought USD had value, it will not have value any more.  If all of a sudden everyone thought Bitcoin was worthless, it becomes worthless.  We as a society decide what is valuable and what is not, otherwise precious metals would not become worth less during peaceful times and worth more during panic.  Its value changes depending on a number of conditions.

Bitcoin is just another manifestation of the same debt.
In the past people have been using shells, or silver, or gold for the same job. Why can't we use Bitcoin? Because it's... digital? Or maybe because the governments cannot alter the value at will with inflation?

Debt in crypto is the appropriate amount of US Dollars (or whatever other fiat currency) that was used to buy the bitcoins in the first place. This is what backs the quantity of BTC.

Besides, transaction establishment existed long before debt became a thing.

[Snowshow]

So, bitcoin doesn't have powers to do something, or to benefit someone.

That is not the case since bitcoin is an anonymous store of wealth that can be send worldwide and transported written on a paper. With the rest what you wrote I agree, the only difference is that I understand that the user case that I described as a anonymous payment system results in the value of bitcoin. Other then that there is no value stored in bitcoin that is true, but that is obvious to everyone since bitcoin only consist of numbers (like your online banking also at least in germany, since onlinebanking does not store money but is a written duty for the bank to give you money if you want it)

So, numbers which prove that people invested value or wealth in the bitcoin system can be sent worldwide or put on paper. But how are people then able to return their investment from that system without new investors? That's the question.

I showed you ten times how are people able to return their investment in fiat currency system without new investors. I explained how people can return their investment in Tesla system without new investors. I know that "1 BTC", 1 USD", or "1 TSLA" can be written digitally or on paper and sent worldwide. But that's not what I am asking. I am asking how is the holder of "1 BTC" able to return investment from the bitcoin system given that they invested in the bitcoin system. It's pretty simple question.

[Snowshow]

So, I'll ask you once again: where do you see value in the bitcoin system if not a single bitcoin holder can return even a dime worth of investment without new investors?

And yet, it's been told to you, thousands of times. Here are a few for emphasis:

I still benefit from censorship resistant transactions if no new participants join.
I still benefit from psudonymous levels of privacy if no new participants join.
I still benefit from the strength and security of the network if no new participants join.

Because the network itself is a tangible resource.  Real people running software on real devices.  Ensuring that every single transaction in every last block conforms to the rules of the protocol.  All of that infrastructure exists.  And you need bitcoin (the currency/asset) to benefit from Bitcoin (the network).  The value is real and it's only the willfully ignorant who are unable to see it.

You can benefit from the security and the anonymity of the system. One crypto owner can buy a good from another crypto owner and therefor both benefit from the bitcoin system. There is no need for a new buyer to enter the bitcoin ecosystem.

Back to the rest of your question.  I can send you $100,000 worth of Bitcoin without a third party interfering with our transaction and requesting documents for identification and proof for source of funds.

I can move $1,000,000,000 abroad without making anyone notice that I did.  It is a transaction stored in a public and transparent legder, but pseudonymity makes it so that there is no clear evidence of who I am and with enough privacy and care, I can make it close to impossible with the current knowledge, information and technology to link the transaction to my identity.

I can purchase a ton of goods using Bitcoin directly, at my own will, even by physically shopping and checking out in a similar way to credit card payments.  Only without banks.

I can store information directly on the blockchain.

I can use my own resources and energy to 'generate' or, as we say, mine Bitcoin at my own will.

These are just a few of the things I can do with Bitcoin.  This is how I benefit from it.  Tell me where exactly is the 'new investors' part in any of the five scenarios I have mentioned above.  Exactly, there is not.

Then I think value is actually subjective.  If all of a sudden nobody thought USD had value, it will not have value any more.  If all of a sudden everyone thought Bitcoin was worthless, it becomes worthless.  We as a society decide what is valuable and what is not, otherwise precious metals would not become worth less during peaceful times and worth more during panic.  Its value changes depending on a number of conditions.

Bitcoin is just another manifestation of the same debt.
In the past people have been using shells, or silver, or gold for the same job. Why can't we use Bitcoin? Because it's... digital? Or maybe because the governments cannot alter the value at will with inflation?

Debt in crypto is the appropriate amount of US Dollars (or whatever other fiat currency) that was used to buy the bitcoins in the first place. This is what backs the quantity of BTC.

Besides, transaction establishment existed long before debt became a thing.

So, how are people able to return their investments in the bitcoin system without new investors? That is what it means to benefit from the system, from bitcoin. People invested in the bitcoin system, and it is that system from which they have to be able to return their investments. They didn't bought goods, labor or services that they are able to consume. But they invested in the system, got the evidence of investment (numbers next to online addresses), and the system must return them the investment. So, how can they return their investments, from that system? That what you c/p is completely irrelevant to this question. Meaning, if the influx of new investors stops, non of that will help the bitcoin holders.

[hZti]

Snowshow in front of his screen:

[famososMuertos]

OP: 
When one does not have the ability to understand, one wanders and consequently reaches conclusions based on the "LCD".

The situation with bitcoin is simple, hundreds of years ago the words was the payment currency that was represented in a good or barter, there was what It is known (knew) as a verbal commitment, nothing more was needed, but it was obvious that bad boys no pay and cheats have always existed in the history of mankind.

Then came paper (papyrus), coins, etc. so bitcoin is not different this is reference from the historical past confirms that forms of payment evolve, my idea is very simple and brief and without referencing dates, etc. in consequence "The Point/OP" is already ridiculous to say that bitcoin is not based on anything. (It's song song  overcome)

[DooMAD]

I still benefit from censorship resistant transactions if no new participants join.
I still benefit from psudonymous levels of privacy if no new participants join.
I still benefit from the strength and security of the network if no new participants join.

Because the network itself is a tangible resource.  Real people running software on real devices.  Ensuring that every single transaction in every last block conforms to the rules of the protocol.  All of that infrastructure exists.  And you need bitcoin (the currency/asset) to benefit from Bitcoin (the network).  The value is real and it's only the willfully ignorant who are unable to see it.

So, how are people able to return their investments in the bitcoin system without new investors? That is what it means to benefit from the system, from bitcoin.

It's not surprising someone as morally bankrupt as yourself is attempting to move the goalposts, but that's not what it means to "benefit from the system", unless you are merely a speculator.  Granted, for some that is the primary motivation for getting involved with Bitcoin.  And I feel sorry for those people.  Nothing in the whitepaper says the purpose of Bitcoin is to buy it cheap for fiat and then sell it high for fiat.  But you, like many in the shallow and uncomprehending media, are only capable of seeing that side of things.  Which is why you parrot the weak and flawed arguments posed in crappy articles from worthless gutter rags with no journalistic integrity.  You don't have an original thought in your empty little head. 

The real benefits of Bitcoin are the tamper-proof sending of funds without interference from, or reliance upon, any middlemen, the transparent and open nature of the network allowing anyone to validate that a transaction has taken place and all the other things that have been repeatedly explained to you.  All the things fiat cannot offer us.  You are willfully blind to that side of the argument.  You won't acknowledge it because you are fundamentally dishonest.  A putrid little shitweasel with no decency.

[Snowshow]

OP: 
When one does not have the ability to understand, one wanders and consequently reaches conclusions based on the "LCD".

The situation with bitcoin is simple, hundreds of years ago the words was the payment currency that was represented in a good or barter, there was what It is known (knew) as a verbal commitment, nothing more was needed, but it was obvious that bad boys no pay and cheats have always existed in the history of mankind.

Then came paper (papyrus), coins, etc. so bitcoin is not different this is reference from the historical past confirms that forms of payment evolve, my idea is very simple and brief and without referencing dates, etc. in consequence "The Point/OP" is already ridiculous to say that bitcoin is not based on anything. (It's song song  overcome)

Yes, certificates of investments can be written digitally or on paper. But you cannot eat them. They are intrinsically worthless. So, when you invest into them the system that issued these certificates must grant you the access to the value inside the system. In the bitcoin system no such value exists. The system is empty. And that's why the current holders of bitcoin must scam new investors to give them the value. That's the essence of bitcoin scam. Previous investors are scammed, and that's why they are forced to scam the new ones.

[Snowshow]

I still benefit from censorship resistant transactions if no new participants join.
I still benefit from psudonymous levels of privacy if no new participants join.
I still benefit from the strength and security of the network if no new participants join.

Because the network itself is a tangible resource.  Real people running software on real devices.  Ensuring that every single transaction in every last block conforms to the rules of the protocol.  All of that infrastructure exists.  And you need bitcoin (the currency/asset) to benefit from Bitcoin (the network).  The value is real and it's only the willfully ignorant who are unable to see it.

So, how are people able to return their investments in the bitcoin system without new investors? That is what it means to benefit from the system, from bitcoin.

It's not surprising someone as morally bankrupt as yourself is attempting to move the goalposts, but that's not what it means to "benefit from the system", unless you are merely a speculator.  Granted, for some that is the primary motivation for getting involved with Bitcoin.  And I feel sorry for those people.  Nothing in the whitepaper says the purpose of Bitcoin is to buy it cheap for fiat and then sell it high for fiat.  But you, like many in the shallow and uncomprehending media, are only capable of seeing that side of things.  Which is why you parrot the weak and flawed arguments posed in crappy articles from worthless gutter rags with no journalistic integrity.  You don't have an original thought in your empty little head.  

The real benefits of Bitcoin are the tamper-proof sending of funds without interference from, or reliance upon, any middlemen, the transparent and open nature of the network allowing anyone to validate that a transaction has taken place and all the other things that have been repeatedly explained to you.  All the things fiat cannot offer us.  You are willfully blind to that side of the argument.  You won't acknowledge it because you are fundamentally dishonest.  A putrid little shitweasel with no decency.

You're not sending funds. You're sending certificates of investment. The problem is that these certificates are fake, worthless. Because, they don't give you access to value inside the system that issued them, like certificates of banks or companies give. That's why you have to find new suckers to scam them to buy these worthless certificates. Without the new suckers, game over.

[hZti]

Yes, certificates of investments can be written digitally or on paper. But you cannot eat them.

If you don't want to buy bitcoins then don't do it. There are many goods that people buy especially in the investing field that you can not eat, that does not make them a scam. Alone for this statement you are now on my ignore list.

[Snowshow]

Yes, certificates of investments can be written digitally or on paper. But you cannot eat them.

If you don't want to buy bitcoins then don't do it. There are many goods that people buy especially in the investing field that you can not eat, that does not make them a scam. Alone for this statement you are now on my ignore list.

Name one investment certificate that doesn't grant access to value present or created inside the system that issued that certificate. If a certain system issued the certificates once people invested in the system, but then people can get nothing from that system by using these certificates, that means the system is a scam. So, you have now finally realized why bitcoin system is a scam, and instead of saying: "thanks snowshow", you're putting me on ignore list. Unbelievable. I have spent so much time to save your ass from this scam, and this is the thanks I get. I don't know if that's ego or something else. But it's certainly an improper behavior.

[sklopan]

In general, this can be said about all cryptocurrencies. And in general - isn't the market mythical? After all, in fact, everyone is selling just papers.

[amishmanish]

Bitcoin is a phenomenon. Something which holds potential to transform the international  economy, something which is slowly but steadily expanding its space and applications in market. Each day one or other country or institution is embracing bitcoin and this transformation will greatly help people to achieve a truly liberal economy, when we wont need currency exchanges, when international business will become as simple as retail store purchases.
The poor will be able to have higher access to funds, not only by local or national market but by international investors. The efficiency of economy will increase significantly.
So if you believe this could be enough reason to be a part of the bitcoin economy, embrace it or keep questioning the myths

[Snowshow]

In general, this can be said about all cryptocurrencies. And in general - isn't the market mythical? After all, in fact, everyone is selling just papers.

Sure, but papers that grant access to the value created or present in the system which issued those papers. In crypto, the systems that issued digital papers grant access to nothing. Which is why people are forced to find new suckers in the market to sell them the worthless papers. Eventually, the pool of suckers will dry up and the systems will collapse.

[Snowshow]

Bitcoin is a phenomenon. Something which holds potential to transform the international  economy, something which is slowly but steadily expanding its space and applications in market. Each day one or other country or institution is embracing bitcoin and this transformation will greatly help people to achieve a truly liberal economy, when we wont need currency exchanges, when international business will become as simple as retail store purchases.
The poor will be able to have higher access to funds, not only by local or national market but by international investors. The efficiency of economy will increase significantly.
So if you believe this could be enough reason to be a part of the bitcoin economy, embrace it or keep questioning the myths

Yes. Bravo! That's the story you have to preach in order to find new suckers. Keep up the good work.

[DooMAD]

certificates of investment.

Flawed comparison. 

Certificates of investment don't grant you access to a global, independent, network which grants you the power to transfer your ownership rights to anyone, anywhere in the world, at any time.  No one can prevent the sale of your ownership rights.  No one can reverse it.  You don't need to rely on an intermediary to make the sale.  You don't need to prove your identity to anyone.  Transparency means everyone can verify that the sale has taken place, even if they can't tell who the buyer or the seller are. 

Holding an amount of bitcoin does grant you access to such a network.  The only way to access it is with bitcoins.  If the network has value, then naturally the bitcoins themselves have value.  And that's before we even get started on the scarcity aspect. 

Certificates of investment rely on brokers or investment firms.  Centralised, opaque, weak and requiring trust.  As such, you and your precious 'Traditional Finance' sector cannot rival what we have built.  Your ideology won't permit it.  You're too busy empowering middlemen to take a cut just for being a cog in the machine.  That's the real scam.  You actually believe in paying flawed and fallible humans to do something in a slow and inefficient way, when a protocol can do it far more efficiently and cheaply.

Nothing like this exists in fiat.  And never will.  That's why it's so valuable. 

You talk a lot, yet you are unable to stop us.  But the part where you keep trying so hard seems to indicate that you're threatened by us.  Does our power to disrupt middlemen threaten your preferred business model, I wonder?  Wouldn't surprise me if you were some sort of bankster or broker.  You seem sufficiently indoctrinated.

[Stalker22]

Eventually, the pool of suckers will dry up and the systems will collapse.

Yes. Bravo! You are a real genius!

Whenever a financial system collapse occurs, it is caused by a lack of faith in the stability or value of money to serve as an effective store of value or medium of exchange. This is not something you just discovered, but a well-known fact. A few recent examples: Venezuelan Bolivar in 2015, Zimbabwean Dollar in 2008, Yugoslav Dinar in the 1990s, Argentinian Peso in the 1970s... But you did not explain why you think that is going to happen with Bitcoin? Why do you believe people will lose confidence and stop using Bitcoin as a currency? Why hasn't that happened yet?

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

You don't have to accept anything. You just have to answer where's value in the bitcoin system if not a single bitcoin holder can return their investment without the value brought by new investors.

Bullshit.

You already got my response... multiple times... so stop telling me what to do over and over, when I already responded to the extent that I am going to respond.  Been there done that.

Because, you constantly preach about bitcoin's value, or bitcoin did this, bitcoin did that. Bitcoin is just an evidence that people invested into the system, and has, for e.g., this form: "0.123 BTC". If they invest more they get bigger number. So, that's some kind of digital certificate of investment, as I have explained in the post #395. So, bitcoin doesn't have powers to do something, or to benefit someone.

Gobbledy gook.  If I have 0.123 BTC in my possession right now, then at this moment I have right in the ballpark of $3,649 in value based on the current price of $29,666 (0.123 * $29,666). 

I could choose to spend it right now, or I could save it and take chance that its value might go up or it might go down based on how the price of it changes and based on where I might be able to liquidate it or exchange it for goods/services.

Accordingly, I can go out in the world and see the various things (goods and/or services) that might be priced at around $3,649, and figure out if I can get someone to accept my 0.123 BTC, and if in the event that I cannot find someone to accept the BTC directly, I can convert those BTC into dollars in one of the exchanges that I have an account... and then afterwards, I can pay the person from the dollars that I get from the 0.123 BTC after converting it to dollars.

Maybe I bought those BTC for the same price or for a higher price, or maybe I bought them for $30.75 in 2015 when BTC prices were in the $250 price territory.

There are a lot of possibilities, and price and value have some overlap, but if I bought the 0.123 BTC in 2015 for $30.75, and then I sold them today for $3,649. then it seems that I also received a bit of a surplus value of $3,618.25 (at least in nominal terms).

It's just data verifying that people invested in the system.

I could give less than two shits what it is in an existential description.  I know that I got $3,618.25 in surplus value from spending that 0.123 BTC, and sure, I might have experienced some other values (and maybe burdens and risks, too) by HODLing it for the last 7 years... but in the end, I go value out of having had purchased it in 2015 and having had sold it at today's price.

If they invested in the system, then the system has to return them their investments. Yet, this is impossible.

I doubt it matters.

Sure they are using a system, and maybe investing in the token called bitcoin.. that ended up paying off by $3,618.25 after 7 years of HODLing it.

They cannot get anything from the system, but instead, they must wait for someone from the outside to bring the value in.

Why do I give any shits about that either.  Whatever I did worked out.  I bought in 2015 and sold in 2022.  Great.  Works.

Which is an indispensable proof that nothing exists in the bitcoin system.

Seems to be working.. I just cashed out of the 0.123 BTC and got a $3,618.25 benefit.

Just like in my fictional system, where I got people to invest in it, but then, they were able to return the investments only from new investments.

Why do I give any shits about your fictional system.. we are talking about bitcoin here.. it is not a fictional system.. it exists... and I just cashed out those 0.123 BTC for $3,618.25 of profits by having had bought them at $30.75 in 2015.

It's literally mind boggling how you repeatedly ignore this important point, and just talk about completely irrelevant stuff. Or you just repeat that mantra about bitcoin's value.

I could say the same about you.  I have given my answers already.

So, I'll ask you once again:

No need.. I already answered several times.

where do you see value in the bitcoin system if not a single bitcoin holder can return even a dime worth of investment without new investors?

I am not going to assume facts that are not in front of me.. because at this point there are people willing to buy the 0.123 BTC that I bought in 2015 for $3,649.. why do I need to presume that the buyers do not exist, when they do exist.  Furthermore, if they did not exist, then I would not be able to sell my bitcoin, but those are not facts that we actually have in front of us at this moment.. you are wanting to talk about a hypothetical that does not exist at the moment.. and I had already suggested that your hypothetical seems to have around a .001% chance of existing in the future, and sure, you have every right to assign higher odds that it might happen in the future, but we know that it does not exist right now because I see that i can sell my 0.123 BTC for $3,649 at today's price of $29,666 per BTC.

Or to put it another way: if the influx of new investors stops, how can the holders return their investments?

They won't get their investment if no one wants it because BTC will go to zero... .. So sure, I will agree  with you that if no one wants BTC, then BTC will be worth zero... and I will also let you know that at this time BTC is worth $29,666.. at leas at this moment as I type this post.

Given you constantly preach about value in the bitcoin system, then you obviously know the answer.

Yes... answered several times already.. but not sure why you keep asking about facts that are not currently in existence merely because you have a kind of wet dream that has about a .001% chance of happening.. give or take.

[Snowshow]

I see that people here vehemently ignore the important poit to which this discussion has come. So, I will make another video and open a new topic to explain this point in more detail. And maybe save some people here from the bitcoin scam. Now that the big names have invested in this scam the pool of new suckers is closer to drying up. And now is an ideal time not to be a sucker (holder) anymore. If the video that I am going to make won't convince you, due to either greed or ego, then you'll pay the price when the system callapses. And this will happen for sure. It will happen for the same reason all scams collapse - there's no value created or present in the system from which the members/holders/suckers could return their investments.

[JayJuanGee]

I see that people here vehemently ignore the important poit to which this discussion has come. So, I will make another video and open a new topic to explain this point in more detail. And maybe save some people here from the bitcoin scam. Now that the big names have invested in this scam the pool of new suckers is closer to drying up. And now is an ideal time not to be a sucker (holder) anymore. If the video that I am going to make won't convince you, due to either greed or ego, then you'll pay the price when the system callapses. And this will happen for sure. It will happen for the same reason all scams collapse - there's no value created or present in the system from which the members/holders/suckers could return their investments.

No need for bolding of your whole post... diptwat.

One of the great things about an asymmetric bet like bitcoin is that you do not need to lose leverage, and sure you could lose everything. .but the value that is being created by having bitcoin as a system.. causes for so much more upside potential than has already come to this asset class.. whether it takes 2-6 years before our next upwards price run.. or maybe it could take longer (such as 8-12 years) for those who can ONLY invest small amounts to start to feel meaningful impacts on their overall financial well-being from merely responsible investing small amounts on a regular basis (something like dollar cost averaging).

Another thing is that the various systems built around bitcoin and the knowledge space has already created value (and brought value to society) above and beyond the price appreciation that
BTC accumulators and HODLers have felt on a more personal level...

Maybe it is true with all paradigm shifting technologies, whether we are talking about more recent inventions like the internet or the automobile or airplane or even the invention of the wheel.. Other things in societies  ended up getting built on such systems that had not previously been possible..   the refrigerator, radio and telephone too... oh and of course, there were other things like that, too... but bitcoin has a kind of invention of a second internet, but one that allows for value to be transmitted on top of it without anyone being able to stop the transmission of such value... It is already BIG and likely to continue to be BIG.... a part of the greatest wealth transfer ever..even if it might take 20, 50, 100, or more years to play out...   

Better if you jump onto bitcoin sooner rather than later Snowshow... #justsaying.