How Satoshi Nakamoto Fooled the World

[Snowshow]

All systems use numbers to express the quantity of shares in a system that someone bought. But in the bitcoin system these shares are worthless because their holders are unable to return their investments from the system that issued them.

I am still not sure whether you truly don't understand or if you are just pretending. Bitcoin is not a system of "shares" like in traditional stock markets. Why do you keep comparing them?
To put it simply, Bitcoin is merely a method of transferring value between two parties. P2P type of payment system. There is no issuer of shares or company in which you invested funds when you exchange fiat currency for cryptocurrency. You simply exchanged one currency for another while, at the same time, someone else did the same in the opposite direction. That is it!

You don't get it, do you? Whatever you say about bitcoin it won't change the fact that people cannot get anything from the bitcoin system when holding the record of how many shares in this system they have. People invested in this system, got the records or evidences of their investments, and then they are able to return their investments only if new investors buy their records. The system returns them nothing, it is completely worthless. That what you call bitcoin is just the name for one share in that worthless system. Just like one share in the US dollar system is called a dollar. When people invested in the US dollar system and consequently hold dollars as evidence of their investments (shares in the system), it is this system that returns them their investments. Either through goods, services or labor of the borrowers or their collaterals if they default on their loans. The bitcoin system is a scam that lures people to invest, and then leaves them with nothing, which is why they are forced to wait for new investors like in all investment scams.. Your writing is just marketing for the bitcoin scam. People are not transferring value through the bitcoin system. That's a lie of the bitcoin marketing. They are transferring records of how many shares in the worthless bitcoin system they have. Stop spreading lies and disinformation.

If you have the audacity to judge what is a „scam“ and what not(while having 0 knowledge of it), then go ahead and give us examples of things that aren’t scams compared to Bitcoin. Im waiting, but i already know you can’t.

No need for examples. The fact is that when you invest in the bitcoin system and get the record of your investment that shows how many shares(BTCs) in this system you hold, the system will never return even a dime worth of your investment. Which is why you're forced to dump your worthless shares to new investors. These new ones must also dump them. And so on. When there's no one left to dump them on, the whole system collapses. And that's literally how all investment scams operate. The bitcoin system is just a scheme for dumping the worthless shares from one investors to another and recording how many shares a particular investor has or has had.

[1714229151]

1714229151

[1714229151]

1714229151

[1714229151]

1714229151

[1714229151]

1714229151

[1714229151]

1714229151

[Snowshow]

All systems use numbers to express the quantity of shares in a system that someone bought. But in the bitcoin system these shares are worthless because their holders are unable to return their investments from the system that issued them.

I am still not sure whether you truly don't understand or if you are just pretending. Bitcoin is not a system of "shares" like in traditional stock markets. Why do you keep comparing them?
To put it simply, Bitcoin is merely a method of transferring value between two parties. P2P type of payment system. There is no issuer of shares or company in which you invested funds when you exchange fiat currency for cryptocurrency. You simply exchanged one currency for another while, at the same time, someone else did the same in the opposite direction. That is it!

You don't get it, do you? Whatever you say about bitcoin it won't change the fact that people cannot get anything from the bitcoin system when holding the record of how many shares in this system they have. People invested in this system, got the records or evidences of their investments, and then they are able to return their investments only if new investors buy their records. The system returns them nothing, it is completely worthless. That what you call bitcoin is just the name for one share in that worthless system. Just like one share in the US dollar system is called a dollar. When people invested in the US dollar system and consequently hold dollars as evidence of their investments (shares in the system), it is this system that returns them their investments. Either through goods, services or labor of the borrowers or their collaterals if they default on their loans. The bitcoin system is a scam that lures people to invest, and then leaves them with nothing, which is why they are forced to wait for new investors like in all investment scams.. Your writing is just marketing for the bitcoin scam. People are not transferring value through the bitcoin system. That's a lie of the bitcoin marketing. They are transferring records of how many shares in the worthless bitcoin system they have. Stop spreading lies and disinformation.

If you have the audacity to judge what is a „scam“ and what not(while having 0 knowledge of it), then go ahead and give us examples of things that aren’t scams compared to Bitcoin. Im waiting, but i already know you can’t.

No need for examples. The fact is that when you invest in the bitcoin system and get the record of your investment that shows how many shares(BTCs) in this system you hold, the system will never return even a dime worth of your investment. Which is why you're forced to dump your worthless shares to new investors. These new ones must also dump them. And so on. When there's no one left to dump them on, the whole system collapses. And that's literally how all investment scams operate. The bitcoin system is just a scheme for dumping the worthless shares from one investors to another and recording how many shares a particular investor has or has had.

Bitcoin is not a stock. It’s designed to be a medium of exchange. Just like a currency. When someone trades euros for dollars, is it „dumping of shares“ too? Ofc nah. It’s simply switching into a different medium of exchange. And just like you can’t pay with dollars in europe, you can’t pay with Bitcoin everywhere yet.

So the logical step is, to trade Bitcoin against whatever currency is accepted wherever you are, and then do the trade(if you’re trading with parties that don’t accept Bitcoin yet). But the more Bitcoin will be accepted, the less this will be necessary and you can use Bitcoin as a medium of exchange directly. Then there will be no more „dumping of shares“ and (spoiler alert) the system didn’t collapse. Or in simple words: magic myth numbers will allow for direct worldwide trade without intermediaries.

Dollar is a share in the US dollar system that has loan business behind it and returns the investments to dollar holders from that business. So, people are not dumping dollars, but exchanging shares in the loan business. You dump shares in investment scams because there's no business activity behind those scams from which the holders of these shares could return their investments. So, you can call bitcoin a currency or whatever, but bitcoin system is still a scam system and bitcoin is stil a completely worthless share in that scam system.

[tadamichi]

All systems use numbers to express the quantity of shares in a system that someone bought. But in the bitcoin system these shares are worthless because their holders are unable to return their investments from the system that issued them.

I am still not sure whether you truly don't understand or if you are just pretending. Bitcoin is not a system of "shares" like in traditional stock markets. Why do you keep comparing them?
To put it simply, Bitcoin is merely a method of transferring value between two parties. P2P type of payment system. There is no issuer of shares or company in which you invested funds when you exchange fiat currency for cryptocurrency. You simply exchanged one currency for another while, at the same time, someone else did the same in the opposite direction. That is it!

You don't get it, do you? Whatever you say about bitcoin it won't change the fact that people cannot get anything from the bitcoin system when holding the record of how many shares in this system they have. People invested in this system, got the records or evidences of their investments, and then they are able to return their investments only if new investors buy their records. The system returns them nothing, it is completely worthless. That what you call bitcoin is just the name for one share in that worthless system. Just like one share in the US dollar system is called a dollar. When people invested in the US dollar system and consequently hold dollars as evidence of their investments (shares in the system), it is this system that returns them their investments. Either through goods, services or labor of the borrowers or their collaterals if they default on their loans. The bitcoin system is a scam that lures people to invest, and then leaves them with nothing, which is why they are forced to wait for new investors like in all investment scams.. Your writing is just marketing for the bitcoin scam. People are not transferring value through the bitcoin system. That's a lie of the bitcoin marketing. They are transferring records of how many shares in the worthless bitcoin system they have. Stop spreading lies and disinformation.

If you have the audacity to judge what is a „scam“ and what not(while having 0 knowledge of it), then go ahead and give us examples of things that aren’t scams compared to Bitcoin. Im waiting, but i already know you can’t.

No need for examples. The fact is that when you invest in the bitcoin system and get the record of your investment that shows how many shares(BTCs) in this system you hold, the system will never return even a dime worth of your investment. Which is why you're forced to dump your worthless shares to new investors. These new ones must also dump them. And so on. When there's no one left to dump them on, the whole system collapses. And that's literally how all investment scams operate. The bitcoin system is just a scheme for dumping the worthless shares from one investors to another and recording how many shares a particular investor has or has had.

Bitcoin is not a stock. It’s designed to be a medium of exchange. Just like a currency. When someone trades euros for dollars, is it „dumping of shares“ too? Ofc nah. It’s simply switching into a different medium of exchange. And just like you can’t pay with dollars in europe, you can’t pay with Bitcoin everywhere yet.

So the logical step is, to trade Bitcoin against whatever currency is accepted wherever you are, and then do the trade(if you’re trading with parties that don’t accept Bitcoin yet). But the more Bitcoin will be accepted, the less this will be necessary and you can use Bitcoin as a medium of exchange directly. Then there will be no more „dumping of shares“ and (spoiler alert) the system didn’t collapse. Or in simple words: magic myth numbers will allow for direct worldwide trade without intermediaries.

Dollar is a share in the US dollar system that has loan business behind it and returns the investments to dollar holders from that business. So, people are not dumping dollars, but exchanging shares in the loan business. You dump shares in investment scams because there's no business activity behind those scams from which the holders of these shares could return their investments. So, you can call bitcoin a currency or whatever, but bitcoin system is still a scam system and bitcoin is stil a completely worthless share in that scam system.

The same „loan business“ that allows private institutions to create money out of nowhere and thus devalues your shares automatically over time, without most of the population realizing or understanding what is happening.

So we have the choice between a system(fiat) that makes us poorer automatically. If you store your worth in fiat you will get poorer by default, so you already lost the game before playing it. The only choice this system gives you to prevent this, is to escape fiat into other assets(like stocks), but not everyone has the ability to do so. So if the only way to survive this system is to leave it, why should any sane person want this(except if they wanna be a masochist or are close to the money printer).

Then the other choice is a system(Bitcoin) that tries to stop this madness and actually gives you the ability to stay in it, without getting rekt. But sure Bitcoin is the worthless scam.

You know yourself that your logic is flawed and it doesn’t make sense to keep discussing it, if you refuse to accept basics. If one day you actually wanna understand why Bitcoin is like it is, we’re happy to help you and if not it’s fine too.

[JayJuanGee]

Bitcoin is not a stock. It’s designed to be a medium of exchange. Just like a currency. When someone trades euros for dollars, is it „dumping of shares“ too? Ofc nah. It’s simply switching into a different medium of exchange. And just like you can’t pay with dollars in europe, you can’t pay with Bitcoin everywhere yet.

So the logical step is, to trade Bitcoin against whatever currency is accepted wherever you are, and then do the trade(if you’re trading with parties that don’t accept Bitcoin yet). But the more Bitcoin will be accepted, the less this will be necessary and you can use Bitcoin as a medium of exchange directly. Then there will be no more „dumping of shares“ and (spoiler alert) the system didn’t collapse. Or in simple words: magic myth numbers will allow for direct worldwide trade without intermediaries.

I don't really disagree with your overall points tadamichi, yet I am a little bit bothered if we end up locking ourselves too much into assertions that bitcoin is like a currency and not like a stock.. because in several ways, based on bitcoin's unique design aspects, bitcoin is like a lot of asset classes all at once.  So, in that regard, bitcoin can be used like a currency, but there is already quite a bit of reluctance for bitcoin HODLers to use bitcoin like a currency in part based on the fact that it is the most sound of monies that the world has ever seen... so many people are going to become way more reluctant to spend it, when they may well have access to a lot of other monies that are less valuable and they can spend those less valuable monies (even assets) first.

So in some sense, there seems to be a kind of current built-in incentive status, that bitcoin HODLers are less likely to spend their bitcoin until after such a point that they either run out of the other kinds of monies/assets or they are so damned overly allocated in bitcoin that they have no disincentive to spend it because they have too much of it anyhow. It can take a while for bitcoin HODLers to get to the point in which they feel that they are overly allocated in bitcoin, especially if they are receiving cashflow/value from other kinds of asset classes/currencies - so they may well be inclined to spend those lower value assets./currencies first.

Personally, I don't have any real issues comparing bitcoin to stocks, even though it will tend towards a lot of misunderstandings if there are too many attempts to pigeonhole bitcoin into such a category - because in essence all stocks have a considerable amount of centralization, and so it could end up being way too misleading to be presuming bitcoin to be similar in those kinds of ways that HODLers/developers/miners have some kinds of control over bitcoin's issuance - and they do not.. it's almost as if Snowshow is wanting to imply that bitcoin has proof of stake attributions (similar to stocks) when it does not, so in that regard I agree with you tadamichi that getting too caught up in stock analogies will lead people to NOT understand the attributions of bitcoin very well.

[Snowshow]

All systems use numbers to express the quantity of shares in a system that someone bought. But in the bitcoin system these shares are worthless because their holders are unable to return their investments from the system that issued them.

I am still not sure whether you truly don't understand or if you are just pretending. Bitcoin is not a system of "shares" like in traditional stock markets. Why do you keep comparing them?
To put it simply, Bitcoin is merely a method of transferring value between two parties. P2P type of payment system. There is no issuer of shares or company in which you invested funds when you exchange fiat currency for cryptocurrency. You simply exchanged one currency for another while, at the same time, someone else did the same in the opposite direction. That is it!

You don't get it, do you? Whatever you say about bitcoin it won't change the fact that people cannot get anything from the bitcoin system when holding the record of how many shares in this system they have. People invested in this system, got the records or evidences of their investments, and then they are able to return their investments only if new investors buy their records. The system returns them nothing, it is completely worthless. That what you call bitcoin is just the name for one share in that worthless system. Just like one share in the US dollar system is called a dollar. When people invested in the US dollar system and consequently hold dollars as evidence of their investments (shares in the system), it is this system that returns them their investments. Either through goods, services or labor of the borrowers or their collaterals if they default on their loans. The bitcoin system is a scam that lures people to invest, and then leaves them with nothing, which is why they are forced to wait for new investors like in all investment scams.. Your writing is just marketing for the bitcoin scam. People are not transferring value through the bitcoin system. That's a lie of the bitcoin marketing. They are transferring records of how many shares in the worthless bitcoin system they have. Stop spreading lies and disinformation.

If you have the audacity to judge what is a „scam“ and what not(while having 0 knowledge of it), then go ahead and give us examples of things that aren’t scams compared to Bitcoin. Im waiting, but i already know you can’t.

No need for examples. The fact is that when you invest in the bitcoin system and get the record of your investment that shows how many shares(BTCs) in this system you hold, the system will never return even a dime worth of your investment. Which is why you're forced to dump your worthless shares to new investors. These new ones must also dump them. And so on. When there's no one left to dump them on, the whole system collapses. And that's literally how all investment scams operate. The bitcoin system is just a scheme for dumping the worthless shares from one investors to another and recording how many shares a particular investor has or has had.

Bitcoin is not a stock. It’s designed to be a medium of exchange. Just like a currency. When someone trades euros for dollars, is it „dumping of shares“ too? Ofc nah. It’s simply switching into a different medium of exchange. And just like you can’t pay with dollars in europe, you can’t pay with Bitcoin everywhere yet.

So the logical step is, to trade Bitcoin against whatever currency is accepted wherever you are, and then do the trade(if you’re trading with parties that don’t accept Bitcoin yet). But the more Bitcoin will be accepted, the less this will be necessary and you can use Bitcoin as a medium of exchange directly. Then there will be no more „dumping of shares“ and (spoiler alert) the system didn’t collapse. Or in simple words: magic myth numbers will allow for direct worldwide trade without intermediaries.

Dollar is a share in the US dollar system that has loan business behind it and returns the investments to dollar holders from that business. So, people are not dumping dollars, but exchanging shares in the loan business. You dump shares in investment scams because there's no business activity behind those scams from which the holders of these shares could return their investments. So, you can call bitcoin a currency or whatever, but bitcoin system is still a scam system and bitcoin is stil a completely worthless share in that scam system.

The same „loan business“ that allows private institutions to create money out of nowhere and thus devalues your shares automatically over time, without most of the population realizing or understanding what is happening.

So we have the choice between a system(fiat) that makes us poorer automatically. If you store your worth in fiat you will get poorer by default, so you already lost the game before playing it. The only choice this system gives you to prevent this, is to escape fiat into other assets(like stocks), but not everyone has the ability to do so. So if the only way to survive this system is to leave it, why should any sane person want this(except if they wanna be a masochist or are close to the money printer).

Then the other choice is a system(Bitcoin) that tries to stop this madness and actually gives you the ability to stay in it, without getting rekt. But sure Bitcoin is the worthless scam.

You know yourself that your logic is flawed and it doesn’t make sense to keep discussing it, if you refuse to accept basics. If one day you actually wanna understand why Bitcoin is like it is, we’re happy to help you and if not it’s fine too.

Hahahaha... you are a funny guy. A system that gives you shares in nothing, which is why you're forced to dump them on someone else is better than systems that give you shares in something. Are you drunk or what?

[tadamichi]

Bitcoin is not a stock. It’s designed to be a medium of exchange. Just like a currency. When someone trades euros for dollars, is it „dumping of shares“ too? Ofc nah. It’s simply switching into a different medium of exchange. And just like you can’t pay with dollars in europe, you can’t pay with Bitcoin everywhere yet.

So the logical step is, to trade Bitcoin against whatever currency is accepted wherever you are, and then do the trade(if you’re trading with parties that don’t accept Bitcoin yet). But the more Bitcoin will be accepted, the less this will be necessary and you can use Bitcoin as a medium of exchange directly. Then there will be no more „dumping of shares“ and (spoiler alert) the system didn’t collapse. Or in simple words: magic myth numbers will allow for direct worldwide trade without intermediaries.

I don't really disagree with your overall points tadamichi, yet I am a little bit bothered if we end up locking ourselves too much into assertions that bitcoin is like a currency and not like a stock.. because in several ways, based on bitcoin's unique design aspects, bitcoin is like a lot of asset classes all at once.  So, in that regard, bitcoin can be used like a currency, but there is already quite a bit of reluctance for bitcoin HODLers to use bitcoin like a currency in part based on the fact that it is the most sound of monies that the world has ever seen... so many people are going to become way more reluctant to spend it, when they may well have access to a lot of other monies that are less valuable and they can spend those less valuable monies (even assets) first.

So in some sense, there seems to be a kind of current built-in incentive status, that bitcoin HODLers are less likely to spend their bitcoin until after such a point that they either run out of the other kinds of monies/assets or they are so damned overly allocated in bitcoin that they have no disincentive to spend it because they have too much of it anyhow. It can take a while for bitcoin HODLers to get to the point in which they feel that they are overly allocated in bitcoin, especially if they are receiving cashflow/value from other kinds of asset classes/currencies - so they may well be inclined to spend those lower value assets./currencies first.

Personally, I don't have any real issues comparing bitcoin to stocks, even though it will tend towards a lot of misunderstandings if there are too many attempts to pigeonhole bitcoin into such a category - because in essence all stocks have a considerable amount of centralization, and so it could end up being way too misleading to be presuming bitcoin to be similar in those kinds of ways that HODLers/developers/miners have some kinds of control over bitcoin's issuance - and they do not.. it's almost as if Snowshow is wanting to imply that bitcoin has proof of stake attributions (similar to stocks) when it does not, so in that regard I agree with you tadamichi that getting too caught up in stock analogies will lead people to NOT understand the attributions of bitcoin very well.

I completely agree with you Jay. My point of view was more of a long term outlook, in the case that Bitcoin becomes so dominant that hodling alone won’t bring gains anymore. Then i think the incentives change and it will be used as a currency. But we’re still far away from this point. I just brought this up, because it kinda defeats the ponzi narrative, if Bitcoin really was a ponzi, then why does it stop bringing gains once it’s used everywhere and you wouldn’t even need to convert it into other currencies. But it’s a win/win situation for us hodlers, because it serves us like a stock or safe haven, as long as the old broken system continues and in case Bitcoin wins we get an ultra sound money system and early investors got rewarded for making it happen(because they have stacked the most sats).

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

I completely agree with you Jay. My point of view was more of a long term outlook, in the case that Bitcoin becomes so dominant that hodling alone won’t bring gains anymore. Then i think the incentives change and it will be used as a currency. But we’re still far away from this point. I just brought this up, because it kinda defeats the ponzi narrative, if Bitcoin really was a ponzi, then why does it stop bringing gains once it’s used everywhere and you wouldn’t even need to convert it into other currencies. But it’s a win/win situation for us hodlers, because it serves us like a stock or safe haven, as long as the old broken system continues and in case Bitcoin wins we get an ultra sound money system and early investors got rewarded for making it happen(because they have stacked the most sats).

For sure, there is a lot of speculation regarding how much bitcoin is designed to pump forever.. both in terms of value continuing to flow into it (Gresham's law principles) and the fact that other assets are still going to exist and there will likely still be some monetary attributions that are contained within various other assets, too...

From what we can see now, bitcoin is likely to remain as the most sound of the monetary assets - absent some other more sound money product coming around.. which surely is possible.. but hard to presume facts that are currently not in evidence, and there currently do not seem to be any assets in existence that competes with bitcoin in terms of being able to serve as both a storage of value and a currency in terms of bitcoin having the best of currency characteristics too.. at least in terms of verifiability, portability, divisibility and ease of being able to personally custody it (if desired).

For sure, many of the current bitcoin HODLers might ONLY have an investment timeline of 4-30 years (accounting for mortality), so even if there are people who attempt to design and predict for the future, there can still be mixed sentiments regarding personal allocations into bitcoin in order to prepare so far into the future, and even if some members plan to attempt to leave legacies in terms of their bitcoin, they still might be struck with some dilemmas regarding how to pass down such legacies and the extent to which they might have to make sure that they have persons who can manage their bitcoin wealth.. which also could be laden with uncertainties too far into the future.

I guess that part of my point remains that shorter term time horizons still remain more important to current BTC HODLers, even if we anticipate that bitcoin remains open to new entrants too.. since we still ONLY have such low levels of adoption.. so there are likely to continue to be usability changes that could affect the ways that BTC HODLers think about the value of what they are holding and if they might need to make adjustments to their BTC allocations.. based on their own personal circumstances that do not necessarily go into generational wealth kinds of considerations... because so many new entrance into the bitcoin space continue to build their bitcoin positions in the coming years.. which well could take us into a dynamic of growth, adoption and building of systems around bitcoin that is lasting 20-30 years or more into the future.

[sklopan]

I've always wondered about this kind of thinking. From your point of view, money is also pieces of paper. Why do you then believe that they are worth anything?

[Snowshow]

I've always wondered about this kind of thinking. From your point of view, money is also pieces of paper. Why do you then believe that they are worth anything?

Read the OP. I edited it just for you.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

I completely agree with you Jay. My point of view was more of a long term outlook, in the case that Bitcoin becomes so dominant that hodling alone won’t bring gains anymore. Then i think the incentives change and it will be used as a currency. But we’re still far away from this point. I just brought this up, because it kinda defeats the ponzi narrative, if Bitcoin really was a ponzi, then why does it stop bringing gains once it’s used everywhere and you wouldn’t even need to convert it into other currencies. But it’s a win/win situation for us hodlers, because it serves us like a stock or safe haven, as long as the old broken system continues and in case Bitcoin wins we get an ultra sound money system and early investors got rewarded for making it happen(because they have stacked the most sats).

For sure, there is a lot of speculation regarding how much bitcoin is designed to pump forever.. both in terms of value continuing to flow into it (Gresham's law principles) and the fact that other assets are still going to exist and there will likely still be some monetary attributions that are contained within various other assets, too...

From what we can see now, bitcoin is likely to remain as the most sound of the monetary assets - absent some other more sound money product coming around.. which surely is possible.. but hard to presume facts that are currently not in evidence, and there currently do not seem to be any assets in existence that competes with bitcoin in terms of being able to serve as both a storage of value and a currency in terms of bitcoin having the best of currency characteristics too.. at least in terms of verifiability, portability, divisibility and ease of being able to personally custody it (if desired).

For sure, many of the current bitcoin HODLers might ONLY have an investment timeline of 4-30 years (accounting for mortality), so even if there are people who attempt to design and predict for the future, there can still be mixed sentiments regarding personal allocations into bitcoin in order to prepare so far into the future, and even if some members plan to attempt to leave legacies in terms of their bitcoin, they still might be struck with some dilemmas regarding how to pass down such legacies and the extent to which they might have to make sure that they have persons who can manage their bitcoin wealth.. which also could be laden with uncertainties too far into the future.

I guess that part of my point remains that shorter term time horizons still remain more important to current BTC HODLers, even if we anticipate that bitcoin remains open to new entrants too.. since we still ONLY have such low levels of adoption.. so there are likely to continue to be usability changes that could affect the ways that BTC HODLers think about the value of what they are holding and if they might need to make adjustments to their BTC allocations.. based on their own personal circumstances that do not necessarily go into generational wealth kinds of considerations... because so many new entrance into the bitcoin space continue to build their bitcoin positions in the coming years.. which well could take us into a dynamic of growth, adoption and building of systems around bitcoin that is lasting 20-30 years or more into the future.

Interesting points, some things that i didn’t consider before, thanks for bringing it up. There’s just so many different variables and it’s hard to predict what will happen in the future. Bitcoins protocol helps to bring a level of security in uncertain times. And understanding Bitcoin requires studying different disciplines, which really creates a strong community and a common goal. I think there’s challenging times ahead for humanity, and if one asset can go trough this storm then i think it’s Bitcoin. If Bitcoin fails to deliver short- and long term goals, then idk what could’ve in this environment, and atleast we tried.

For sure, it is really difficult to figure out how to invest these days, and sure anyone who might have already accumulated decent wealth might end up presuming that they can take chances that their existing investment portfolio will hold value through their remaining years.. if they expect to get 5-10 years out of it or maybe the uncertainty of longevity approaching 30 years - even people in their 60s tend to want to consider that they might live into their 90s - even though they might not end up having more than 10 years of life left in them.. but even being able to enjoy wealth can become difficult for folks who are aging into their 60s and beyond - some folks are more lucky than others, but even young folks sometimes will consider that they might be able to have more energy (and physical fitness into their elder years than ends up being the case), and I would not even suggest not having that kind of hope and having somewhat of a retirement nestegg just in case there might end up being an ability to enjoy and draw upon it into the 90s.

I have invested since I first entered into young adult life, and of course, the kinds of investments that were available for me, were different than what is currently available, but still similar trade-offs are still going to exist in terms of how far into the future that any of us strive to consider our investment, so when we are younger, we tend to be more preoccupied with wanting to get a quick pay off, and surely some of those kinds of inclinations can still carry into our practices as we get older, if we have not learned how to get them under control.  So many younger folks get fucked because they get impatient with their desires to get rich quick and to see a quick payoff, and even if 4-10 years might seem as if it is too far into the future, it should be a timeline that any age investor should be able to attempt to build bitcoin into their investment timeline in order that they can at least shoot for initially investing with that kind of a timeline in mind, and even if they can assess their investment along the way, it may well become way more meaningful to defer any kinds of serious reassessment until sometime within the 4-10 year window in order to figure out how well their wealth has grown (or not) in terms of accumulating BTC during that time period.
 
Of course, each of us has discretion to manage our investment portfolio however we like, and so if we might end up focusing on ways to accumulate BTC in the first 4-10 years of our investment, then we are likely to be in a better position to engage in better assessment once we have given our BTC holdings time to accumulate and potentially compound upon itself.  

For sure, not everyone is in the same boat, and there will be some folks who are already older, so they might be able to be more aggressive in their allocation of value into BTC, and there are going to also be folks who might not be able to have 4-10 years as an investment timeline because they are already getting elderly and are worried about locking up too much of their value into something like BTC.  For the folks with a potentially shorter timeline, the answer should NOT be NOT to invest as Snowshow seems to want to argue, but instead to perhaps tailor the investment amount to a smaller allocation, so if a younger or middle aged person might be able to reasonably figure out an allocation into BTC  that is anywhere between 1% and 25%, the person with the shorter timeline may well want to consider an allocation into BTC that is towards the lower part of the range - something like 1% to 5% and of course tailored to personal circumstances.

Younger folks and those ones with hardly any resources (maybe from a developed country and might not even be able to allocate $10 per week) may well just have to figure out their own circumstance in terms of trying to figure out how much is reasonable for them to invest into BTC, and surely if they continue to invest into BTC with even low amounts of value, there might be ways that through the years - even perhaps shorter than a 4-10 year time horizon, they will be able to increase their allocation into BTC based on being able to either increase their income or to cut some of their expenses.

So, even though in my last post I was suggesting that there could be longer term considerations (that go out 30 years or more concerning where bitcoin might be at that time) that bitcoin is likely to absorb more and more of the monetized assets in the world because it remains the best of sound monies/assets, but it also has the better of the monetary qualities that were already mentioned regarding verifiability, portability, divisibility, ability to individually hold and other aspects. Individuals are still likely going to be attempting to invest on shorter timelines that are hopefully at least 4-10 years or more while at the same time having an ability to appreciate where BTC as a competitive asset is going and is likely to continue to go - absent some kind of crazy-ass outrageous event.. like the world blowing up.. and then we are all fucked anyhow, so why get all worked up about some kind of an event like that.. we need to attempt to prepare for more likely scenarios rather than world blowing up scenarios that would end up causing us not to prepare at all.

I've always wondered about this kind of thinking. From your point of view, money is also pieces of paper. Why do you then believe that they are worth anything?

Read the OP. I edited it just for you.

You are a disingenuine twat.  

You should not be changing the OP in any kinds of meaningful way(s) once you established it..

Sure a little tweaking of the OP would be fine, but you changed the OP a couple of times already - which shows that you do not know what the fuck your point was or what it is or what it might be,


.......and also that you are not even trying to work through whatever issue that you had presented in the first place... because you "come up with something new" blah blah blah..

 

no wonder no one likes you, you do not have any friends and you have not even got an invitation to the prom...


you  fuck




 

[arcmetal]

Bitcoin is not a stock. It’s designed to be a medium of exchange. Just like a currency. When someone trades euros for dollars, is it „dumping of shares“ too? Ofc nah. It’s simply switching into a different medium of exchange. And just like you can’t pay with dollars in europe, you can’t pay with Bitcoin everywhere yet.

So the logical step is, to trade Bitcoin against whatever currency is accepted wherever you are, and then do the trade(if you’re trading with parties that don’t accept Bitcoin yet). But the more Bitcoin will be accepted, the less this will be necessary and you can use Bitcoin as a medium of exchange directly. Then there will be no more „dumping of shares“ and (spoiler alert) the system didn’t collapse. Or in simple words: magic myth numbers will allow for direct worldwide trade without intermediaries.

I don't really disagree with your overall points tadamichi, yet I am a little bit bothered if we end up locking ourselves too much into assertions that bitcoin is like a currency and not like a stock.. because in several ways, based on bitcoin's unique design aspects, bitcoin is like a lot of asset classes all at once.  So, in that regard, bitcoin can be used like a currency, but there is already quite a bit of reluctance for bitcoin HODLers to use bitcoin like a currency in part based on the fact that it is the most sound of monies that the world has ever seen... so many people are going to become way more reluctant to spend it, when they may well have access to a lot of other monies that are less valuable and they can spend those less valuable monies (even assets) first.

So in some sense, there seems to be a kind of current built-in incentive status, that bitcoin HODLers are less likely to spend their bitcoin until after such a point that they either run out of the other kinds of monies/assets or they are so damned overly allocated in bitcoin that they have no disincentive to spend it because they have too much of it anyhow. It can take a while for bitcoin HODLers to get to the point in which they feel that they are overly allocated in bitcoin, especially if they are receiving cashflow/value from other kinds of asset classes/currencies - so they may well be inclined to spend those lower value assets./currencies first.

Personally, I don't have any real issues comparing bitcoin to stocks, even though it will tend towards a lot of misunderstandings if there are too many attempts to pigeonhole bitcoin into such a category - because in essence all stocks have a considerable amount of centralization, and so it could end up being way too misleading to be presuming bitcoin to be similar in those kinds of ways that HODLers/developers/miners have some kinds of control over bitcoin's issuance - and they do not.. it's almost as if Snowshow is wanting to imply that bitcoin has proof of stake attributions (similar to stocks) when it does not, so in that regard I agree with you tadamichi that getting too caught up in stock analogies will lead people to NOT understand the attributions of bitcoin very well.

I completely agree with you Jay. My point of view was more of a long term outlook, in the case that Bitcoin becomes so dominant that hodling alone won’t bring gains anymore. Then i think the incentives change and it will be used as a currency. But we’re still far away from this point. I just brought this up, because it kinda defeats the ponzi narrative, if Bitcoin really was a ponzi, then why does it stop bringing gains once it’s used everywhere and you wouldn’t even need to convert it into other currencies. But it’s a win/win situation for us hodlers, because it serves us like a stock or safe haven, as long as the old broken system continues and in case Bitcoin wins we get an ultra sound money system and early investors got rewarded for making it happen(because they have stacked the most sats).

What you guys are describing is just the S-curve of adoption.  This is something that holds true for any new technology.  Think of: electricity distribution, the light bulb, TV, the internet, cell phones, etc.  They all went through the S-curve of adoption: at the introduction of a new technology very few will have it, or use it, but as time passes and if the technology is useful more people will have it and utilize it.

But in the case of bitcoin it so happens that in the beginnings of its S-curve, it has a low price and then later in its S-curve it has a high price.  Which is simply due to supply and demand.  This allows for some who notice this to get in on an easy way to grow an investment.  But, as you point out, towards the end of its S-curve, when bitcoin has spread as far as it can spread, its price will level out.  A point will be reached where buyers and sellers are in a sort of balance.  The price will still oscillate, but the large incremental rise over time will no longer exist.  Of course, no one really knows when or at what price this will happen, at a million, at ten million, this is not possible to predict.

I guess its just cool to see that others have noticed these obvious (maybe not so obvious to some, I'm looking at you Snowshow) properties of bitcoin.

[JayJuanGee]

Bitcoin is not a stock. It’s designed to be a medium of exchange. Just like a currency. When someone trades euros for dollars, is it „dumping of shares“ too? Ofc nah. It’s simply switching into a different medium of exchange. And just like you can’t pay with dollars in europe, you can’t pay with Bitcoin everywhere yet.

So the logical step is, to trade Bitcoin against whatever currency is accepted wherever you are, and then do the trade(if you’re trading with parties that don’t accept Bitcoin yet). But the more Bitcoin will be accepted, the less this will be necessary and you can use Bitcoin as a medium of exchange directly. Then there will be no more „dumping of shares“ and (spoiler alert) the system didn’t collapse. Or in simple words: magic myth numbers will allow for direct worldwide trade without intermediaries.

I don't really disagree with your overall points tadamichi, yet I am a little bit bothered if we end up locking ourselves too much into assertions that bitcoin is like a currency and not like a stock.. because in several ways, based on bitcoin's unique design aspects, bitcoin is like a lot of asset classes all at once.  So, in that regard, bitcoin can be used like a currency, but there is already quite a bit of reluctance for bitcoin HODLers to use bitcoin like a currency in part based on the fact that it is the most sound of monies that the world has ever seen... so many people are going to become way more reluctant to spend it, when they may well have access to a lot of other monies that are less valuable and they can spend those less valuable monies (even assets) first.

So in some sense, there seems to be a kind of current built-in incentive status, that bitcoin HODLers are less likely to spend their bitcoin until after such a point that they either run out of the other kinds of monies/assets or they are so damned overly allocated in bitcoin that they have no disincentive to spend it because they have too much of it anyhow. It can take a while for bitcoin HODLers to get to the point in which they feel that they are overly allocated in bitcoin, especially if they are receiving cashflow/value from other kinds of asset classes/currencies - so they may well be inclined to spend those lower value assets./currencies first.

Personally, I don't have any real issues comparing bitcoin to stocks, even though it will tend towards a lot of misunderstandings if there are too many attempts to pigeonhole bitcoin into such a category - because in essence all stocks have a considerable amount of centralization, and so it could end up being way too misleading to be presuming bitcoin to be similar in those kinds of ways that HODLers/developers/miners have some kinds of control over bitcoin's issuance - and they do not.. it's almost as if Snowshow is wanting to imply that bitcoin has proof of stake attributions (similar to stocks) when it does not, so in that regard I agree with you tadamichi that getting too caught up in stock analogies will lead people to NOT understand the attributions of bitcoin very well.

I completely agree with you Jay. My point of view was more of a long term outlook, in the case that Bitcoin becomes so dominant that hodling alone won’t bring gains anymore. Then i think the incentives change and it will be used as a currency. But we’re still far away from this point. I just brought this up, because it kinda defeats the ponzi narrative, if Bitcoin really was a ponzi, then why does it stop bringing gains once it’s used everywhere and you wouldn’t even need to convert it into other currencies. But it’s a win/win situation for us hodlers, because it serves us like a stock or safe haven, as long as the old broken system continues and in case Bitcoin wins we get an ultra sound money system and early investors got rewarded for making it happen(because they have stacked the most sats).

What you guys are describing is just the S-curve of adoption.  This is something that holds true for any new technology.  Think of: electricity distribution, the light bulb, TV, the internet, cell phones, etc.  They all went through the S-curve of adoption: at the introduction of a new technology very few will have it, or use it, but as time passes and if the technology is useful more people will have it and utilize it.

But in the case of bitcoin it so happens that in the beginnings of its S-curve, it has a low price and then later in its S-curve it has a high price.  Which is simply due to supply and demand.  This allows for some who notice this to get in on an easy way to grow an investment.  But, as you point out, towards the end of its S-curve, when bitcoin has spread as far as it can spread, its price will level out.  A point will be reached where buyers and sellers are in a sort of balance.  The price will still oscillate, but the large incremental rise over time will no longer exist.  Of course, no one really knows when or at what price this will happen, at a million, at ten million, this is not possible to predict.

I guess its just cool to see that others have noticed these obvious (maybe not so obvious to some, I'm looking at you Snowshow) properties of bitcoin.

Sure exponential s-curve adoption based on Metcalfe's law and networking principles has been part of what tadamichi and I had been talking about, but it was not the only thing, because when you are an individual attempting to decide what you are going to do in terms of whether to invest  into bitcoin and how much to invest, you may or may not be able to recognize or appreciate that exponential s-curve adoption exists where you might be on the timeline or even abilities to figure out your own financial and/or psychological circumstances.  

Even though you (arcmetal) acknowledge that there are ups and downs within the s-curve.. we still should acknowledge that those squiggly exponential lines are not guaranteed in terms of either how far they will go UPpity or how long it will take for the BTC price associated with the squigglies to get to whatever point that they are getting (and sure you acknowledged that part too).  Lot's of normies (or bitcoin newbies) may well end up getting reckt as fuck, if they are not able to figure out some kind of reasonable and prudent strategy that fits for them, which many of us would theorize that kind of reckening to be difficult to achieve, even though we likely have witnessed some folks who end up achieving what seems to be an impossible task (getting reckt in a bull asset class like bitcoin).. and sure one of the fastest ways to get reckt is to use margin or leverage, but another way is merely trying to time the ups and downs of the market with a kind of hubris belief of knowing where the BTC price is going in the short-to-medium term.. which also may well end up causing both financial and/or psychological damages.

[Snowshow]

You are a disingenuine twat.  

You should not be changing the OP in any kinds of meaningful way(s) once you established it..

Sure a little tweaking of the OP would be fine, but you changed the OP a couple of times already - which shows that you do not know what the fuck your point was or what it is or what it might be,


.......and also that you are not even trying to work through whatever issue that you had presented in the first place... because you "come up with something new" blah blah blah..

 

no wonder no one likes you, you do not have any friends and you have not even got an invitation to the prom...


you  fuck



 

I can do whatever I want with my topic.

But regardless, it is really funny and crazy how you, a top advocate of the bitcoin scam, have the audacity to moralize someone for editing a post on a forum.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

I can do whatever I want with my topic.

You go girl!!!!

But regardless, it is really funny and crazy how you, a top advocate of the bitcoin scam, have the audacity to moralize someone for editing a post on a forum.

bitcoin does not edit its transactions

and

I do not edit my posts either.... (especially if they have existed for more than an hour or so)


So I am having some difficulties understanding what point you are making exactly.

 

[minime0105]

No need for examples. The fact is that when you invest in the bitcoin system and get the record of your investment that shows how many shares(BTCs) in this system you hold, the system will never return even a dime worth of your investment. Which is why you're forced to dump your worthless shares to new investors. These new ones must also dump them. And so on. When there's no one left to dump them on, the whole system collapses. And that's literally how all investment scams operate. The bitcoin system is just a scheme for dumping the worthless shares from one investors to another and recording how many shares a particular investor has or has had.

Every thing you said now is repeatition of what you said in other of your response.from what you are explaining are you trying to tell the world that Bitcoin system is worthless and valueless. From this sentence i can sense that you labelled bitcoin as a scam zone, if you want agitation and condemnation of bitcoin, try to come up with good point with good explanation not repeating them in several occasions

[Snowshow]

[edited out]

I can do whatever I want with my topic.

You go girl!!!!

But regardless, it is really funny and crazy how you, a top advocate of the bitcoin scam, have the audacity to moralize someone for editing a post on a forum.

bitcoin does not edit its transactions

and

I do not edit my posts either.... (especially if they have existed for more than an hour or so)


So I am having some difficulties understanding what point you are making exactly.

 

You understand very well what point I am making.

[sklopan]

In general, I try to pay attention to minimizing the use of various schemes. This is often quite unsafe.

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

I can do whatever I want with my topic.

You go girl!!!!

But regardless, it is really funny and crazy how you, a top advocate of the bitcoin scam, have the audacity to moralize someone for editing a post on a forum.

bitcoin does not edit its transactions

and

I do not edit my posts either.... (especially if they have existed for more than an hour or so)


So I am having some difficulties understanding what point you are making exactly.

 

You understand very well what point I am making.

It appears to me that you are deflecting.

You are the one who ends up changing the OP after the fact that many members had already attempted to respond to each version of your OP.. then you switch to some new variant of a topic.

When I point this out, you try to muddy the waters by ambiguously proclaiming that there is something wrong with me and/or my motives rather than the obvious issue in front of us - which is your actions of changing the topic at least twice which could also be referred to as a disingenuine moving of the goal posts.

#you fuck.

[Doan9269]

So im just using every opportunity i can to learn and build my skills. And what Bitcoin teached me, compared to university, is already priceless to me

One thing about bitcoin is that you best acquire it knowledge in practice, and this will be your greatest security asset in the nearest future, many people don't have the patience to build up skills and goes mute on dilema because they don't know it whereabouts, got confused and later ended being decieved which resulted into scam, that's why i said what you know about bitcoin is your first security asset, to sum it up, your educational background is as well another added advantage because you will understand how to read a market, speculate and know the basic principles of demand and supply which also applies in bitcoin.

I just saw what the fiat system did to the people around me and i dont want other people to go trough this again in the future.

this are the kind of a positive mind thinking users we are talking about, someone who sees the future and believe in the power of change, if we have been a slave all these while to the rule of fiat economy system then it's time to wake up, we have to take and embrace the future bitcoin has come to place on us as an opportunity, yet some are so addicted to an old pattern of live but want something new amd different, how?...  if you can invest, store your value assets, make profits and remmain secured with bitcoin then it worth using at all cost.

[so98nn]

So it’s hopeless dumping scheme because peeps are already earning big profits, living the life freely and transacting borderless without any hesitation? Your thoughts are coming out of the rage where you might have lost money because you were not sure when to enter into the market. Moreover you were in rush to sell because you thought everyone is dumping right now. However, this is just one of cyclic changes that happens in the bitcoin world now and then. I’m not surprised and still not selling my coins.