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Author Topic: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency  (Read 4553734 times)
smooth
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October 25, 2014, 05:11:44 AM
 #16101

So you go ahead and move your coins to a ring-sig sidechain, move them around a few times, and then move them back. Unless other people are doing this at the same time, when you move your coins back to the main chain, you will get the same coins back that you started with.

Even if you get the same coins back you still added a bunch of plausible deniability as the coins would have been "marked" as going into the side chain and impossible to tell if you are the same person or not taking them out even if you get the same coins back.  

They specifically try to avoid that, at least in the federated model. They are trying to make side chain transactions look like ordinary multisigs to avoid censoring or blacklisting transactions to "evil" sidechains.

There is always some plausible deniability in Bitcoin really, since every time the coins move to a new address it can't really be proven that they didn't change owner (at least not from blockchain analysis). But tracing to you can still be an issue, and tracing on the chain at large can be a bigger issue, by identifying clusters of activity associated with various "evil" things. That could cause problems even if it couldn't be used to convict you. For example, Coinbase has been banning people whose Bitcoins seem to seem to transit "evil" parts of the blockchain. I don't know for sure, but I suspect they are using either a third party scoring system for this or they built their own.


taint all the coins

That works with a blacklist but it doesn't work with a scoring system that looks at how recently the coin has been involved with "evil" stuff or others sorts of sophisticated blockchain analysis. Resisting blockchain analysis is why Monero (Cryptonote) was created; tacking it on to Bitcoin is neither easy nor necessarily feasible at all.

I'm not really singling out Coinbase here, I just happen to be aware of what they have been doing. I doubt that other major Bitcoin companies are much different (perhaps using the same third party services, but again I'm just speculating on that). This will all probably get worse with BitLicense, etc.


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5w00p
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October 25, 2014, 06:50:33 AM
 #16102

Why don't ypu all quit bitchin about sidechains and worry 'bout dat price?

Because smooth has better things to worry about. Thus,

development is just that. That which hath no meaning, is destined to fail.

Monero exists to buck the trend. A bucking bull is hard to ride, but every man who dare try it, is more of a man than not.
coinism
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October 25, 2014, 07:45:29 AM
 #16103



Monero : Most speculative investment for me so far.
No user friendly wallet for mac yet. reddit readers 731, fb likes 226, no real homepage.. i suspect there are not many devs building on Monero as there are no services yet, no adoption, really nada, except highly speculative hope. Also the community is still very small as we speak, but that doesn't surprise me cause not enough work has been done yet to attract users (can't really use it yet, seems like in alfa phase).

So why did i invest? Mostly because of specualtion, the brand name Monero (might have a nice ring to it in SA and the hispanic world), anonymity, and a few loud voices.

Having lived and worked in SA, mainly Brazil, i know how many people have problems with paying txs (trying to avoid them), sending cash, inflation.. and cash in SA is still king for the majority. Monero could be very useful in SA indeed.


"and i base my assumptions on absolutely nothing"
alloffmyhate
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October 25, 2014, 08:55:12 AM
 #16104

who admin moneropool.com ? i see this pool handle more than 51% hashrate  Undecided of monero

dEBRUYNE
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October 25, 2014, 10:58:00 AM
 #16105

About that cryptsy law suit that someone posted earlier, it seems utter bullshit 

http://altcoinpress.com/2014/10/california-man-has-computer-hacked-then-blames-crypto-exchange/

Privacy matters, use Monero - A true untraceable cryptocurrency
Why Monero matters? http://weuse.cash/2016/03/05/bitcoiners-hedge-your-position/
ol21
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October 25, 2014, 11:07:39 AM
 #16106

About that cryptsy law suit that someone posted earlier, it seems utter bullshit 

http://altcoinpress.com/2014/10/california-man-has-computer-hacked-then-blames-crypto-exchange/

you have to laugh though stored password locally and no 2fa
Quicken
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October 25, 2014, 11:24:33 AM
 #16107

About that cryptsy law suit that someone posted earlier, it seems utter bullshit 

http://altcoinpress.com/2014/10/california-man-has-computer-hacked-then-blames-crypto-exchange/

Fair enough. It was me who posted the news story, and Cryptsy hadn't responded at that point I think. Sounds like a weak case if it's true the site wasn't responsible for the breach.
Q
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October 25, 2014, 11:28:22 AM
 #16108

i would get into blocknet and forgetting all these shits altogether.

i scam no one and the scammers don't like me. trade with caution? i don't do trade on bitcointalk and don't ask about it. ark.io
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October 25, 2014, 11:36:43 AM
 #16109

Alternative XMR pools
If you are using Claymore or Yam miners you can configure backup pools so you dont waste any hash if we have to restart for an update or anything. Please do not use pools with more than 30% of the network hashrate, since it is bad for the network to be too centralised

Pool   Hashrate   Last block   
minexmr.com   333.31 KH/s   
cryptonotepool.org.uk   54.64 KH/s
hashinvest.net   1.07 MH/s   
moneropool.com   12.45 MH/s   
extremepool.org   42.06 KH/s   
monero.crypto-pool.fr   3.84 MH/s
xmr.poolto.be   48.03 KH/s   



Network
Hash Rate: 18.89 MH/sec
Zabaglione
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October 25, 2014, 01:23:44 PM
 #16110

What services would benefit from anonymous transactions?

Practically speaking, how useful is Monero exactly? There are hardly any services that accept Monero, making it basically worthless as a currency. what's the point of a currency if you can't buy anything with it?

How concerned are people about privacy and anonymity? Just because we are supposed to be concerned, doesn't mean we will/are concerned.

Other cryptocurrencies boast anonymity too, what sets Monero apart from the crowd exactly?

Does Monero have a future? Or will it soon die like most cryptocurrencies?

How much value does Monero really have?

I bought into this coin because so many people have convinced themselves and me that this is the next best thing, and I wanted to profit from it. The lowering price is obviously not profitable to me, and now I'm starting to have doubts about this coin.
BanditryAndLoot
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October 25, 2014, 01:52:54 PM
 #16111

What services would benefit from anonymous transactions?
All of them
Practically speaking, how useful is Monero exactly?
Exactly 100% useful, every single Monero ever produced will have value. Value is useful.
There are hardly any services that accept Monero, making it basically worthless as a currency.
This is confirmation bias. Surely you didn't purchase a crypto currency in 2014 thinking that your neighbors were using them at the grocery store downtown?
what's the point of a currency if you can't buy anything with it?
You can already purchase anything you would like with any currency.
How concerned are people about privacy and anonymity?
Very concerned. For example, I'm wearing clothes right this very second. You also are not aware of my name. I'm sure the same will go for the majority of people you will ever interact with over the internet.
Just because we are supposed to be concerned, doesn't mean we will/are concerned.
Totes agree
Other cryptocurrencies boast anonymity too, what sets Monero apart from the crowd exactly?
Brand new code base, using different cryptography implementations than the Satoshi client or any of its derivatives.
Does Monero have a future?
Fuck yeah!
Or will it soon die like most cryptocurrencies?
I don't think anyone here is a fortune teller, or diviner. If you do find one, please do let the rest of us know.
How much value does Monero really have?
Right this minute - $ 3,040,959 as 23% of the total emission which would yield $13,200,000 at 100% emission, plus whatever value you place on hopes and dreams (CMC doesn't list those).
I bought into this coin because so many people have convinced themselves and me that this is the next best thing, and I wanted to profit from it. The lowering price is obviously not profitable to me, and now I'm starting to have doubts about this coin.
Personally, I don't think you're having increasing doubts, yet more decreasing beliefs. The doubts were likely always there. Seeing as how your main belief you held in buying into this was to only attain profit, obviously your beliefs have decreased in your relative position to your doubts. In that case, I highly suggest you become motivated to discover some more legitimate beliefs, rather than let them shrink in scale to your doubt, lest you will then be in a position to really lose money.

And it's only at the end of fall, that we discover it was naught but the wind that knew when one particular leaf was to fall from one particular tree, only to land in one distinct spot .. to be left for an eternity, and waste its time in a wait sublime. C0A2A1C4
Zabaglione
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October 25, 2014, 02:06:50 PM
Last edit: October 25, 2014, 02:22:29 PM by Zabaglione
 #16112

@BanditryAndLoot

Good answers, thank you!

Quote from: Zabaglione
Other cryptocurrencies boast anonymity too, what sets Monero apart from the crowd exactly?
Quote from: BanditryAndLoot
Brand new code base, using different cryptography implementations than the Satoshi client or any of its derivatives.

Does this really set Monero apart from other anon cryptocurrencies though? Both Monero and other anon cryptocurrencies ultimately do the same thing, transfer value anonymously, unless I'm mistaken. Also, Monero wasn't the first to do this so it doesn't get the advantage of being first like Bitcoin does.

Quote from: BanditryAndLoot
Seeing as how your main belief you held in buying into this was to only attain profit

I think most people do this. Other than the DSH/XMR etc markets on Poloniex, there isn't much else reason to buy Monero. Just because you believe in Monero you don't have to buy it.

Quote from: Zabaglione
How concerned are people about privacy and anonymity?
Quote from: BanditryAndLoot
Very concerned. For example, I'm wearing clothes right this very second. You also are not aware of my name. I'm sure the same will go for the majority of people you will ever interact with over the internet.

I do agree that people are concerned to an extent, but I think the large majority of people would be content with the psuedo anonymity that Bitcoin provides. Especially when using Bitcoin is just easier. Monero does really lack ease of use and there is quite a steep learning curve. I never hear people talk about how easy to use Monero is.
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October 25, 2014, 02:14:31 PM
 #16113


Does this really set Monero apart from other anon cryptocurrencies though? Both Monero and other anon cryptocurrencies ultimately do the same thing, transfer value anonymously, unless I'm mistaken. Also, Monero wasn't the first to do this so it doesn't get the advantage of being first like Bitcoin does.


What other coins offer anonymous transactions outside of cryptonotes? All I see are promises to implement something in the future, except for anoncoin, and their implementation seems to getting some pointed critiques. You're correct that Monero wasn't the first, Bytecoin was the first, but they had an effective 80%+ premine, making bitmonero/monero the first fairly launched and de facto first anonymous cryptocurrency, unless I'm mistaken.
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October 25, 2014, 02:20:57 PM
 #16114

I do agree that people are concerned to an extent, but I think the large majority of people would be content with the psuedo anonymity of Bitcoin. Especially when using Bitcoin is just easier. Monero does really lack ease of use and there is quite a steep learning curve.

The large majority of people are happy with fiat at the moment, which is easier than any crypto. That didn't stop BTC gaining value, and I believe there is plenty of money interested in genuine anonymity.

Finally, Monero is only six months old. Look again in another 6 months.  Wink
Zabaglione
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October 25, 2014, 02:36:32 PM
 #16115

Does this really set Monero apart from other anon cryptocurrencies though? Both Monero and other anon cryptocurrencies ultimately do the same thing, transfer value anonymously, unless I'm mistaken. Also, Monero wasn't the first to do this so it doesn't get the advantage of being first like Bitcoin does.
What other coins offer anonymous transactions outside of cryptonotes? All I see are promises to implement something in the future, except for anoncoin, and their implementation seems to getting some pointed critiques. You're correct that Monero wasn't the first, Bytecoin was the first, but they had an effective 80%+ premine, making bitmonero/monero the first fairly launched and de facto first anonymous cryptocurrency, unless I'm mistaken.

What about Darkcoin and Stealthcoin? Those are just two off the top of my head but I thought they had managed to achieve anonymity?

I do agree that people are concerned to an extent, but I think the large majority of people would be content with the psuedo anonymity of Bitcoin. Especially when using Bitcoin is just easier. Monero does really lack ease of use and there is quite a steep learning curve.
The large majority of people are happy with fiat at the moment, which is easier than any crypto. That didn't stop BTC gaining value, and I believe there is plenty of money interested in genuine anonymity.
Finally, Monero is only six months old. Look again in another 6 months.  Wink

I don't think fiat money is always easier than crypto. For me, I find online transactions with Bitcoin FAR more easy (cheaper and faster also). But yeah, I suppose you're right in that the easiness isn't the most important factor. But I still believe convenience and easiness is important. I really do wonder what Monero will be like in another 6 months. Are there any plans for the future of Monero?
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October 25, 2014, 02:41:08 PM
 #16116

Does this really set Monero apart from other anon cryptocurrencies though? Both Monero and other anon cryptocurrencies ultimately do the same thing, transfer value anonymously, unless I'm mistaken. Also, Monero wasn't the first to do this so it doesn't get the advantage of being first like Bitcoin does.
What other coins offer anonymous transactions outside of cryptonotes? All I see are promises to implement something in the future, except for anoncoin, and their implementation seems to getting some pointed critiques. You're correct that Monero wasn't the first, Bytecoin was the first, but they had an effective 80%+ premine, making bitmonero/monero the first fairly launched and de facto first anonymous cryptocurrency, unless I'm mistaken.

What about Darkcoin and Stealthcoin? Those are just two off the top of my head but I thought they had managed to achieve anonymity?

Most people like to see some professional cryptographers make an independent review first before taking it on faith that some coin has achieved anonymity. As far as I know there are no such published papers, but I could be wrong because I don't follow either of those currencies.
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October 25, 2014, 03:05:11 PM
Last edit: October 25, 2014, 10:09:04 PM by BanditryAndLoot
 #16117

Does this really set Monero apart from other anon cryptocurrencies though? Both Monero and other anon cryptocurrencies ultimately do the same thing, transfer value anonymously, unless I'm mistaken. Also, Monero wasn't the first to do this so it doesn't get the advantage of being first like Bitcoin does.

I'm unaware of every technicality of every implementation of a privacy-centric cryptocurrency, but I'm definitely aware of a few. Darkcoin utilizes masternodes in a network that has become a PoW/PoS system to handle your transactions. I view this as an interesting concept for pretty much everything other than securing anonymity. While I feel it has a decent implementation of privacy, it offers the least amount of privacy subject to the most trade offs compared to the competition. For one, people need to have large amounts of the currency remain absoultely immobile in order to provide their anonymity. What happens when they want to use this money, while getting the MN reward? I see promise notes taking root relatively quickly if Darkcoin were to gain any significant market cap.

Last I saw they had ~1k nodes, of 1000 DRK each. That's about 20% of their current money supply out of usage for transacting. Their goal of (IIRC) 3k - 5k nodes will be 3 million out of production out of ~22M total coins, so it looks like they want to keep it at about 20% for the entire time. While this is nice, their reward structure has not been defined completely yet (If I'm wrong please let me know). With their goal is 22M total coins, I haven't seen an answer as to what will happen to the 20% block reward going to the master nodes when the block reward runs out. Seeing as their structure right now is a minimum of 1 DRK/block going to all masternodes, I think they'll see some trouble in figuring out what to do when that 22M max coins is hit.

So, for the nodes to always receive this minimum payment, the same nodes on which their entire premise of anonymity rests, they'll have to settle on a permanent block reward of at least 1 DRK/block and a PoS system that rewards only masternodes, if they were to completely cut out the hardware miners. If they stick with PoW, then what would the block reward have to be to keep the network secure? Let's say 1 DRK to MN's and 1 DRK to miners. So a minimum of 2 DRK/block. At 22M max coins, and a block time of 2.5 minutes, this is an annual debasement of 420k/year, or about a 2% yearly inflation. Understand that at this point, 50% of DRK is already accounted for by 100 wallets. So, we can reasonably assume that most of the MN reward will go to these peoples wallets. So, even without hardware, we're likely going to see < 100 people with ~2.1 million DRK catch most of 20% of the block reward forever, so these 100 wallets will likely catch an easy 2.6 million more DRK while doing absolutely no work other than running a server and keeping it on. I don't think that's representative of them paying the market price, and believe that it's stealing, equivalent to a premine (ADD: by non-developers). ADD: I say this because, simply by using cryptonote, I have the ability to offer anyone using cryponote anonymity for what is right now only transaction fees. As drk already had an instamine, it would be pretty awkward to see that instamine coupled with a premine by likely the same people.

Alternatively, they can leave the masternodes and miners with transaction fees. Bitcoin right now, for a 1335 tx block collects .18036 BTC in transaction fees. If this was Darkcoin at max coins, then .0360 DRK/block would go to MN's. If they have ~4k MN's online at this point, each node will collect an average of about 902 satoshi's per block. With 17568 blocks/month this is .1584 DRK/month per masternode. If DRK had the same marketcapcost per coin as Bitcoin right now, this would be about $55 USD/month. Is that worth it for you to have something with a value of $346,000 sitting around? Highly doubtful - if you have over a quarter million dollars in value sitting around and all you can do is pull $55 USD/month with is that's a damn joke (ADD: on average, of course, within a timeframe that one can afford - this isn't an investment discussion, this is a service for a fee discussion). So what will they do? (add: this $55 number does not account for the fact that bitcoin block time is 10 mins, drk is 2.5, so this number reflects a higher usage and same marketcap scenario.)

It's placed me at a serious economic disadvantage, and I'm not okay with it; however, all the choices can ever do is limit the penetration into society, so I don't spend my days criticizing their efforts and continue to support their innovation, I even own myself a whopping 5 DRK. I haven't addressed the technical basis of masternodes at all here though, so keep that in mind.

There's other coins that other people have a better understanding of like zerocoin, bitcoindark, or even other cryptonote forks .. I'm sure they can give a better answer than I can .. but just like my above paragraphs - there's volumes to be said, so it's not really a quick conversation.

I think most people do this. Other than the DSH/XMR etc markets on Poloniex, there isn't much else reason to buy Monero. Just because you believe in Monero you don't have to buy it.

I agree, and repeat that if you find things to believe in then surely you can find a reason to hold onto at least a couple Smiley

Personally, I'm looking forward to trying out Risto's game, and have set aside a few XMR to do so. The initial buy in is too costly for me, but I await to see what he's come up with. While I already owned XMR, even if I didn't I would be interested in purchasing at least 5-10 to play the game, depending on whether or not I wanted to play the game. It's a choice that wasn't there a month ago. That same kind of utility has brought me to buy a few huntercoin, and darknote, because I wanted to try out huntercoins blockchain game, and darknotes messaging system. The values were small enough that I don't care to run to the market and dump them on a downtrend, but large enough to afford myself the utility these things provide. Also, large enough that if either one ever got the same marketcap as bitcoin, I would feel very happy, as a simple $5-$10 investment could yield 10k-100k gains. While I don't know if that's ever possible with either of them, I have to also admit that it's not impossible.


I do agree that people are concerned to an extent, but I think the large majority of people would be content with the psuedo anonymity of Bitcoin. Especially when using Bitcoin is just easier. Monero does really lack ease of use and there is quite a steep learning curve.

They are satisfied for now. Just this year, coinbase has been taking advantage of the linkability of transactions to deny some people their services. How long that can go on for and to what extent it can be taken to remains to be fully observed, but speculation says that it can go pretty far. Regardless of the pseudo anonymity, if your money is worthless to some people regardless of who you are and relies entirely on its recent history then I don't really see much good coming out of it.

As far as easier - Bitcoin has had 5 years of development. This has had 5 months. I can accept that an order of magnitude in lifetime will result in an order of magnitude in usability, comparably. I don't think it will take 4.5 more years to get to the same type of usability though, likely much much less time, as we have tens of thousands of more people who are capable of developing cryptocurrencies now than we did 5 years ago.

And it's only at the end of fall, that we discover it was naught but the wind that knew when one particular leaf was to fall from one particular tree, only to land in one distinct spot .. to be left for an eternity, and waste its time in a wait sublime. C0A2A1C4
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October 25, 2014, 03:09:29 PM
 #16118

Monero was worth roughly $2.20 not all that long ago, and now it is worth less than $.70.
Those who invested $2000 in your project here in the past few months now only have about $600 in investment value.
While I agree with people saying it isn't the devs job necessarily to maintain the price of a currency, I can't say these
facts should just be ignored.

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October 25, 2014, 03:35:56 PM
 #16119

It's like an early Xmas! Moneros almost for free!! Buy now, be happy later :-) I cant stop buying!
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October 25, 2014, 03:43:56 PM
 #16120

Does this really set Monero apart from other anon cryptocurrencies though? Both Monero and other anon cryptocurrencies ultimately do the same thing, transfer value anonymously, unless I'm mistaken. Also, Monero wasn't the first to do this so it doesn't get the advantage of being first like Bitcoin does.
What other coins offer anonymous transactions outside of cryptonotes? All I see are promises to implement something in the future, except for anoncoin, and their implementation seems to getting some pointed critiques. You're correct that Monero wasn't the first, Bytecoin was the first, but they had an effective 80%+ premine, making bitmonero/monero the first fairly launched and de facto first anonymous cryptocurrency, unless I'm mistaken.

What about Darkcoin and Stealthcoin? Those are just two off the top of my head but I thought they had managed to achieve anonymity?


As someone pointed out above, Darkcoin relies on masternodes to perform mixing. As they said, I don't think this technology has been reviewed by actual cryptographers, and another thing is this semi-centralized system puts forth an attack vector for malicious actors to focus their efforts on.

I don't think Stealthcoin has actually implemented any real anonymous transactions. They were talking about using chandran signatures, but that seems to have been shot down by some people as not workable in the form they initially proposed.
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