[XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency

[GingerAle]

DID YOU TEST THE BLOCKCHAIN BRANCH? https://github.com/tewinget/bitmonero/commits/blockchain

We are missing testers and especially results, we can't test it on hundreds of different pcs ourselves

Should we test this on testnet or take it to the main?

[David Latapie]

When choosing a mixin of zero, you do not use mixins and your transaction becomes traceable. You still use stealth addresses no matter what, so that the receiver may choose to retain their unlinkability and untraceability when in the future they decide to use the money they have received. To retain your own personal unlinkability and untraceability, this would best be done using two wallets. Have the sender, who chooses to use a zero mixin (Example: Poloniex), send the funds to a one-time wallet created by yourself that you control, and then send those funds to your personal wallet with funds you wish to keep unlinkable and untraceable.

The forthcoming MRL-0004 will address this issue by recommending mixing values strictly above 2 ("3 to 5"). Then, no need for two wallets (terminology: MRL doesn't enforce, core team does; MRL merely recommends).

So, as far as 'fully anonymous' goes, I would say that is only a part of Monero, and not the entire deal.

Yep: Q: How can Monero be both anonymous and transparent at the same time?. Plus scalability and decentralisation, as well as more goals that are not yet fully defined.

[Atrides]

I would call the main goal of the first step to do a freebazaar platform, corresponded with the OB state at the deadline moment (ca.a month), with using Monero as a means of paying. in reality, the more detailed plan can be only made

If I'm reading this correctly (and forgive my uncertainty over what I suspect are some language issues), I believe Atrides is proposing that the phase one FreeBazaar deliverable would be a feature-equivalent port of OpenBazaar at some specified deadline (approximately one month), with these exceptions:

1. XMR is supported as the payment method instead of BTC

2. A third party escrow feature is integrated to take the place of on-chain multisig, which doesn't exist in XMR (and won't in one month). Presumably this includes some sort of trust/rating system for escrow providers (maybe this already exists in OB and it can be repurposed, I don't know)

If I'm understanding correctly then I'm willing to serve as escrow and/or arbiter (the two functions can be separated if desired) on whether this milestone has been achieved. Whoever is doing the arbiter function should get possibly get a fee, since it will require doing some research in order to determine whether the criteria have been satisfied. I'm willing to perform the escrow function at no charge to support the project, and maybe the arbiter function if the criteria are made very clear and easy to judge.

because this is a fork of OB, regardless of the fact whether we will go own way or with OB, in any case our progress depends on OB state at the beginning. that's why I set as a goal for the first step the equivalent of actual OB, with integrated Monero. it will work there without multisig just as BTC works in OB with multisig. there are no concrete criterions how to do, how said i choose the optimal ways in process or consult with backers

during a work some OB bugs will have to be fixed, to get monero working, but without complete analyse of code I can't say exactly, which are important, how long it takes.. the point is the integrating monero and not to do a fully workable market. from working beta to useful release -is the futher steps with adding new unique features.

[Atrides]

yeah some sort of checks and balances would be essential, but wouldn't multiple signers on a bitreserve account be cool too (if that was possible)

do you mean to integrate bitreserve into freebazaar?
this is a doubtful idea within a decentral system, someone has to keep these reserves centrally. altought it's possible to realize with multiple multisigs (not 2/3 but as example 4/5). anyway, any additional features comming later.

there can be many exciting ideas like to deal not only with goods, but also with services, to make the platform not only as a market, but a decentral exchange etc..

[Este Nuno]

How does BitcoinDark compare to CryptoNote?

I made a post about how the two technologies work together here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=898563.msg10001278#msg10001278.

Interesting.  So BTCD is actually a good project.  Are there any worthwhile anon coins besides CN and BTCD?

There is no anonymity code in BTCD afaik, at least there wasn't last time i checked. that answers your question i hope.

https://github.com/jl777/btcd/tree/master/libjl777

Code is there. It's still being tested though so it's not enabled in the live version.

whats up with this shite, last time i tried to understand supernet this 777 guy trew the github in my face like it was something obvious, and now you do the same with other guy lol

anyway, this is where my interest in monero comes in, its not a promise to far away times, its already live and works.

He said as far as he knew there was no anonymity code in BTCD. Obviously that's not the case and I didn't "throw it in his face like it was something obvious". I just linked to the part of the github where there was actual code related to that part of the tech, there also happens to be a ton of other things there unrelated to anonymity and jl777 isn't known for spending much time commenting his code well so I'm not surprised at people's eyes glazing over. There's other people reviewing it anyway. I don't have anything to do with BTCD directly and I don't really follow it in particular, but I've done enough research to know that it's not "a promise to far away times". That's all, I don't want to get in to an off-topic discussion about it.

[David Latapie]

I would call the main goal of the first step to do a freebazaar platform, corresponded with the OB state at the deadline moment (ca.a month), with using Monero as a means of paying. in reality, the more detailed plan can be only made
1) after we choose what the direction to go: own way or confluence into OB.
I'm going to discuss this point with donators, their thoughts, suggestions.., to contact OB devs
2) as well as after learning and analysing the whole OB code, its functions. that will take me a while, we want the thing to be stable and secure.

OB has got about 260 open bugs actually, some of them I will have to fix to get monero parts working. but I also suppose, the most complicated part will be developing of well-operating monero escrow without multisig.

I won't integrate the market in any GUI wallet.but I realize a communiation with monero wallets via API.
to core devs: will be there any API to mymonero?
I agree you smooth as esrow and the final arbiter

I updated the post about donations with what I understood of your plans (and I also added you as a support for smooth to be an escrow):

Proposed timeline

1. Decide whether FreeBazaar will fork from OpenBazaar or will start from scratch (to be discussed with both FreeBazaar donators and OpenBazaar developpers)
2. Analyse OpenBazaar's source code
3. Develop a reliable monero escrow system without multisig
4. Develop an API for integration with Monero wallets (including if possible mymonero)

Please confirm I understood correctly and add anything I may have missed.

[bitcoinrocks]

Since we're talking about cloning/forking OB, do you guys realize that in OB the items you're selling are stored on your node only and if your node is disconnected from the network then your items disappear from the marketplace?

http://forum.openbazaar.org/index.php?p=/discussion/105/need-a-permanent-node-to-set-up-a-store

[jehst]

OB has got about 260 open bugs actually, some of them I will have to fix to get monero parts working. but I also suppose, the most complicated part will be developing of well-operating monero escrow without multisig.

260 open bugs, some of which he'd have to fix before modifying it to work without multisig and modifying it to work with XMR. Doesn't seem realistic for that to be done in a month, and even if it were, the result would still be buggy. I hate to be a wet blanket, but let's maybe think about this. Would a buggy Freebazaar with no multi-sig really get much use even as a marketing tool? Would it really be superior to an onion site or IRC channel with a reputation system and escrow agents? We'd end up throwing more money at re-modifying it to use multi-sig once XMR finally gets working multisig. If core XMR devs hold Atrides as a software engineer in high esteem, then that's enough for me. But there's always an opportunity cost. He could be paid to work on something else.

Note: I am not withdrawing my pledge. I move with the consensus.

[Hueristic]

OB has got about 260 open bugs actually, some of them I will have to fix to get monero parts working. but I also suppose, the most complicated part will be developing of well-operating monero escrow without multisig.

260 open bugs, some of which he'd have to fix before modifying it to work without multisig and modifying it to work with XMR. Doesn't seem realistic for that to be done in a month, and even if it were, the result would still be buggy. I hate to be a wet blanket, but let's maybe think about this. Would a buggy Freebazaar with no multi-sig really get much use even as a marketing tool? Would it really be superior to an onion site or IRC channel with a reputation system and escrow agents? We'd end up throwing more money at re-modifying it to use multi-sig once XMR finally gets working multisig. If core XMR devs hold Atrides as a software engineer in high esteem, then that's enough for me. But there's always an opportunity cost. He could be paid to work on something else.

Note: I am not withdrawing my pledge. I move with the consensus.

I would suggest working on the integration and leaving the bugs to the initial devs and if those need to be addressed for proper integration then that bug could be addressed. I see no reason for this project to fix bugs that may be handled differently from the initial fork which would deviate the project farther from the initial fork which would make maintenance a magnitude in order tougher to maintain.

this of course is just an opinion and can be ingnored.

[jehst]

OB has got about 260 open bugs actually, some of them I will have to fix to get monero parts working. but I also suppose, the most complicated part will be developing of well-operating monero escrow without multisig.

260 open bugs, some of which he'd have to fix before modifying it to work without multisig and modifying it to work with XMR. Doesn't seem realistic for that to be done in a month, and even if it were, the result would still be buggy. I hate to be a wet blanket, but let's maybe think about this. Would a buggy Freebazaar with no multi-sig really get much use even as a marketing tool? Would it really be superior to an onion site or IRC channel with a reputation system and escrow agents? We'd end up throwing more money at re-modifying it to use multi-sig once XMR finally gets working multisig. If core XMR devs hold Atrides as a software engineer in high esteem, then that's enough for me. But there's always an opportunity cost. He could be paid to work on something else.

Note: I am not withdrawing my pledge. I move with the consensus.

I would suggest working on the integration and leaving the bugs to the initial devs and if those need to be addressed for proper integration then that bug could be addressed. I see no reason for this project to fix bugs that may be handled differently from the initial fork which would deviate the project farther from the initial fork which would make maintenance a magnitude in order tougher to maintain.

this of course is just an opinion and can be ingnored.

I'm thinking it could be better to just wait for XMR to get multi-sig first. By then, he'd be modifying a much less buggy OB.

In the meantime, resources might be better spent making it super-easy for XMR to be accepted by existing major marketplaces, such as poker websites as David Latapie suggested earlier today.

I don't think we have a tutorial for services willing to add Monero, like a casino (such as DirectBet) or an exchange (such as Poloniex). Could someone start one?

 If Poloniex and Bter and Hitbtc can figure out how to detect XMR deposits and send XMR, then the groundwork has basically been done. There are a bunch of marketplaces that would be accepting XMR right now, such as Cryptsy, that aren't accepting XMR simply because it's not super-easy for them to figure it out.

It could be far more powerful to see XMR accepted on a major poker website rather than to see it integrated into a buggy, non-multisig OpenBazaar fork.Think about it.

[stslimited]

yeah some sort of checks and balances would be essential, but wouldn't multiple signers on a bitreserve account be cool too (if that was possible)

do you mean to integrate bitreserve into freebazaar?
this is a doubtful idea within a decentral system, someone has to keep these reserves centrally. altought it's possible to realize with multiple multisigs (not 2/3 but as example 4/5). anyway, any additional features comming later.

there can be many exciting ideas like to deal not only with goods, but also with services, to make the platform not only as a market, but a decentral exchange etc..

No, I mean that funds should be held in a stable but miltisig account so that people don't have to just trust you or the developer with the funds

[stslimited]

How does BitcoinDark compare to CryptoNote?

I made a post about how the two technologies work together here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=898563.msg10001278#msg10001278.

Interesting.  So BTCD is actually a good project.  Are there any worthwhile anon coins besides CN and BTCD?

There is no anonymity code in BTCD afaik, at least there wasn't last time i checked. that answers your question i hope.

https://github.com/jl777/btcd/tree/master/libjl777

Code is there. It's still being tested though so it's not enabled in the live version.

whats up with this shite, last time i tried to understand supernet this 777 guy trew the github in my face like it was something obvious, and now you do the same with other guy lol

anyway, this is where my interest in monero comes in, its not a promise to far away times, its already live and works.

He said as far as he knew there was no anonymity code in BTCD. Obviously that's not the case and I didn't "throw it in his face like it was something obvious". I just linked to the part of the github where there was actual code related to that part of the tech, there also happens to be a ton of other things there unrelated to anonymity and jl777 isn't known for spending much time commenting his code well so I'm not surprised at people's eyes glazing over. There's other people reviewing it anyway. I don't have anything to do with BTCD directly and I don't really follow it in particular, but I've done enough research to know that it's not "a promise to far away times". That's all, I don't want to get in to an off-topic discussion about it.

people's eyes are glazing over because there is nothing worthwhile in the code, nobody is reviewing it, they are just assuming other people are. Altcoin fanatics are too gullible

[generalizethis]

OB has got about 260 open bugs actually, some of them I will have to fix to get monero parts working. but I also suppose, the most complicated part will be developing of well-operating monero escrow without multisig.

260 open bugs, some of which he'd have to fix before modifying it to work without multisig and modifying it to work with XMR. Doesn't seem realistic for that to be done in a month, and even if it were, the result would still be buggy. I hate to be a wet blanket, but let's maybe think about this. Would a buggy Freebazaar with no multi-sig really get much use even as a marketing tool? Would it really be superior to an onion site or IRC channel with a reputation system and escrow agents? We'd end up throwing more money at re-modifying it to use multi-sig once XMR finally gets working multisig. If core XMR devs hold Atrides as a software engineer in high esteem, then that's enough for me. But there's always an opportunity cost. He could be paid to work on something else.

Note: I am not withdrawing my pledge. I move with the consensus.

I would suggest working on the integration and leaving the bugs to the initial devs and if those need to be addressed for proper integration then that bug could be addressed. I see no reason for this project to fix bugs that may be handled differently from the initial fork which would deviate the project farther from the initial fork which would make maintenance a magnitude in order tougher to maintain.

this of course is just an opinion and can be ingnored.

I'm thinking it could be better to just wait for XMR to get multi-sig first. By then, he'd be modifying a much less buggy OB.

In the meantime, resources might be better spent making it super-easy for XMR to be accepted by existing major marketplaces, such as poker websites as David Latapie suggested earlier today.

I don't think we have a tutorial for services willing to add Monero, like a casino (such as DirectBet) or an exchange (such as Poloniex). Could someone start one?

 If Poloniex and Bter and Hitbtc can figure out how to detect XMR deposits and send XMR, then the groundwork has basically been done. There are a bunch of marketplaces that would be accepting XMR right now, such as Cryptsy, that aren't accepting XMR simply because it's not super-easy for them to figure it out.

It could be far more powerful to see XMR accepted on a major poker website rather than to see it integrated into a buggy, non-multisig OpenBazaar fork.Think about it.

Atrides has offered to do this, so he probably believes that he can do it or would at least like the challenge of trying--a decentralized market seems like a sooner or later project--so why not let him have at it and let someone who wants to handle integration with gambling sites, handle integration with gambling sites? I'm just amazed (and thankful) someone is willing to tackle the market problem so early.

[Este Nuno]

How does BitcoinDark compare to CryptoNote?

I made a post about how the two technologies work together here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=898563.msg10001278#msg10001278.

Interesting.  So BTCD is actually a good project.  Are there any worthwhile anon coins besides CN and BTCD?

There is no anonymity code in BTCD afaik, at least there wasn't last time i checked. that answers your question i hope.

https://github.com/jl777/btcd/tree/master/libjl777

Code is there. It's still being tested though so it's not enabled in the live version.

whats up with this shite, last time i tried to understand supernet this 777 guy trew the github in my face like it was something obvious, and now you do the same with other guy lol

anyway, this is where my interest in monero comes in, its not a promise to far away times, its already live and works.

He said as far as he knew there was no anonymity code in BTCD. Obviously that's not the case and I didn't "throw it in his face like it was something obvious". I just linked to the part of the github where there was actual code related to that part of the tech, there also happens to be a ton of other things there unrelated to anonymity and jl777 isn't known for spending much time commenting his code well so I'm not surprised at people's eyes glazing over. There's other people reviewing it anyway. I don't have anything to do with BTCD directly and I don't really follow it in particular, but I've done enough research to know that it's not "a promise to far away times". That's all, I don't want to get in to an off-topic discussion about it.

people's eyes are glazing over because there is nothing worthwhile in the code, nobody is reviewing it, they are just assuming other people are. Altcoin fanatics are too gullible

That's not true at all. There are 322 people in the SuperNET slack including dozens of programmers. There's 64 people testing the api right now in slack as well. In fact you're more than welcome to help come test, or run a node. There are well over $1000 in bug bounty rewards split up every week to anyone who finds bugs. It's also being independently reviewed by Kristov Atlas. I'd love to see even more people going over the code as I really want to see some more legitimate criticism. Anyone interested should inquire though as you'll likely be compensated somewhat at least.

I'm anything but an altcoin fanatic, I don't even own any alts other than some BTM that was donated to be by members of the community for work I've done. Seems there are still some arrogant assholes here who like to assume things instead of actually fact checking their bullshit first before posting.

[Atrides]

260 open bugs, some of which he'd have to fix before modifying it to work without multisig and modifying it to work with XMR. Doesn't seem realistic for that to be done in a month, and even if it were, the result would still be buggy. I hate to be a wet blanket, but let's maybe think about this. Would a buggy Freebazaar with no multi-sig really get much use even as a marketing tool? Would it really be superior to an onion site or IRC channel with a reputation system and escrow agents? We'd end up throwing more money at re-modifying it to use multi-sig once XMR finally gets working multisig. If core XMR devs hold Atrides as a software engineer in high esteem, then that's enough for me. But there's always an opportunity cost. He could be paid to work on something else.

I'm thinking it could be better to just wait for XMR to get multi-sig first. By then, he'd be modifying a much less buggy OB.

1. I am only going to change some of them that affect monero. all bugs that will be corrected, are planning to be sent into the main project
2. monero multisig is not comming soon, it is not a priority how said core devs. but even when it will come, anyway we will have to adapt monero multisig to openbazaar, the btc code is unusable.

[fluffypony]

That's not true at all. There are 322 people in the SuperNET slack including dozens of programmers. There's 64 people testing the api right now in slack as well. In fact you're more than welcome to help come test, or run a node. There are well over $1000 in bug bounty rewards split up every week to anyone who finds bugs. It's also being independently reviewed by Kristov Atlas. I'd love to see even more people going over the code as I really want to see some more legitimate criticism. Anyone interested should inquire though as you'll likely be compensated somewhat at least.

I'm anything but an altcoin fanatic, I don't even own any alts other than some BTM that was donated to be by members of the community for work I've done. Seems there are still some arrogant assholes here who like to assume things instead of actually fact checking their bullshit first before posting.

It has not been independently reviewed by Kristov as far as I can tell. He "started on the review of the design" on November 13, and that was the last I could find on it.

Also, if anyone wants to continue to discuss Bitcoindark their thread is that-a-way:)

[fluffypony]

1. I am only going to change some of them that affect monero. all bugs that will be corrected, are planning to be sent into the main project
2. monero multisig is not comming soon, it is not a priority how said core devs. but even when it will come, anyway we will have to adapt monero multisig to openbazaar, the btc code is unusable.

I see no fundamental problem with bugs being fixed and ultimately being pulled upstream to OB. It would be unconscionable of Atrides to do it any other way - the OB developers have, after all, put in the effort to give him a base from which to work.

[Hueristic]

1. I am only going to change some of them that affect monero. all bugs that will be corrected, are planning to be sent into the main project
2. monero multisig is not comming soon, it is not a priority how said core devs. but even when it will come, anyway we will have to adapt monero multisig to openbazaar, the btc code is unusable.

I see no fundamental problem with bugs being fixed and ultimately being pulled upstream to OB. It would be unconscionable of Atrides to do it any other way - the OB developers have, after all, put in the effort to give him a base from which to work.

Now that is an attitude you don't see in many coins!

[binaryFate]

1. I am only going to change some of them that affect monero. all bugs that will be corrected, are planning to be sent into the main project
2. monero multisig is not comming soon, it is not a priority how said core devs. but even when it will come, anyway we will have to adapt monero multisig to openbazaar, the btc code is unusable.

I see no fundamental problem with bugs being fixed and ultimately being pulled upstream to OB. It would be unconscionable of Atrides to do it any other way - the OB developers have, after all, put in the effort to give him a base from which to work.

Now that is an attitude you don't see in many coins!

This backporting would be indeed a large part of the PR (as in Public Relations) to expect outside of the existing community.

[David Latapie]

If Poloniex and Bter and Hitbtc can figure out how to detect XMR deposits and send XMR, then the groundwork has basically been done. There are a bunch of marketplaces that would be accepting XMR right now, such as Cryptsy, that aren't accepting XMR simply because it's not super-easy for them to figure it out.

But not publicly documented - and this what we want.
TheKoziTwo, as far as I remember, Poloniex got massive inspiration from your code at cryptonote.exchange.to for inclusion in Poloniex (and swaphole too). Could you prepare some documentation, that the community would happily polish?