[XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency

[tacotime]

Thanks to Tacotime and all the devs who brought this coin to where it is today.  Looking forward to tomorrow.

np, the experimental branch should put an end to blocks like this: http://monerochain.info/block/7933b43b3bf22479dfcf1a4fec2c401ffbcbb8a078db989675c51d77c6c8ecd9

How frequently is this happening?

See for yourself; http://monerochain.info/

[Keyboard-Mash]

Thanks to Tacotime and all the devs who brought this coin to where it is today.  Looking forward to tomorrow.

np, the experimental branch should put an end to blocks like this: http://monerochain.info/block/7933b43b3bf22479dfcf1a4fec2c401ffbcbb8a078db989675c51d77c6c8ecd9

Thanks for the update! I'll try it out now too. Maybe you or someone explained this already, but how does the regular update work? Does it restrict tx sizes by denying large size transactions and couple the larger ones with the higher fee? Or are all tx's going to have the same fee you set regardless of size now? What's different with the experimental update 0.8.8? Does it scale on the medium block size or something?

[drawingthesun]

Regarding inflation after the 18,000,000 coins are minted.

I believe that a constant amount of coin release is superior to a 1% inflation. The Ethereum guys are going to probably do it this way.

1% constantly devalues everyones coins, whereas if we just made the final block reward 1 MRO, thats about 500,000 mro per year (Or 250,000 per year with 2 minute blocks). It would be about 2% inflation for that year it came into effect, but would gradually become less than 1%.

A fixed eventual supply of 500,000 mro is going to always be enough to entice miners. Remember that the value of those 500,000 will probably increase as time goes on.

A 1% reward will just devalue the currency for everyone else.

A constant supply will create a long term rare coin without the reward problem that Bitcoin will run into.

I am a fan of the economic model of constant supply. I am not a fan of 1% inflation.

[TooDumbForBitcoin]

So, whats everyones hash rates at?

Mines at a hefty 12.74KH/s

If I may ask, please - what is the power draw of your 12.74kH/s mining rig?

Thanks

[Keyboard-Mash]

Regarding inflation after the 18,000,000 coins are minted.

I believe that a constant amount of coin release is superior to a 1% inflation. The Ethereum guys are going to probably do it this way.

1% constantly devalues everyones coins, whereas if we just made the final block reward 1 MRO, thats about 500,000 mro per year (Or 250,000 per year with 2 minute blocks). It would be about 2% inflation for that year it came into effect, but would gradually become less than 1%.

A fixed eventual supply of 500,000 mro is going to always be enough to entice miners. Remember that the value of those 500,000 will probably increase as time goes on.

A 1% reward will just devalue the currency for everyone else.

A constant supply will create a long term rare coin without the reward problem that Bitcoin will run into.

I am a fan of the economic model of constant supply. I am not a fan of 1% inflation.

I think a decent comparison might be made with gold here. Comparing the total amount of gold in the world (estimate) to the amount produced per year may yield some interesting numbers.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21969100

This page (year old article) seems to indicate estimates of 171,300 tonnes

http://news.goldseek.com/Dani/1309290922.php

and http://onlygold.com/FAQ/faq_factsandstatistics.htm

Indicate there's about 2500 tons produced/year.

If we're looking for possible inflation rates based on real world numbers/decent estimates, that might be a place to look. Right now that's giving an inflation of around 1.456% or so. Of course that changes over time, and you may find better number in looking at the % of gold mined per country or something .. but again I'm just trying to offer something to base ourselves on. Anyone have a better comparison or can offer ideas on why this wouldn't be a good place to look at?

[blaaaaacksuit]

Thanks to Tacotime and all the devs who brought this coin to where it is today.  Looking forward to tomorrow.

np, the experimental branch should put an end to blocks like this: http://monerochain.info/block/7933b43b3bf22479dfcf1a4fec2c401ffbcbb8a078db989675c51d77c6c8ecd9

How frequently is this happening?

See for yourself; http://monerochain.info/

Wow, yea, definitely looking forward to the end of this!

[drawingthesun]

I think a decent comparison might be made with gold here. Comparing the total amount of gold in the world (estimate) to the amount produced per year may yield some interesting numbers.

I got into Bitcoin because I don't want a similar release to gold. (Or banks!)

I always thought that Satoshi should have kept the 50 bitcoin reward constant, yeah the first 10 years would have had huge inflation but it would allow more people to get on board during the early years. Then 50 years in bitcoin would have been having a moderate inflation but still enough to entice all peoples to invest in a growing currency. 100 years and you're on 1% and then after you get the super rare phase.

Ethereum is the only coin doing it right I think, it'll be a constant supply and people can mine the same amount of Ethereum in a thousand years, but of course it'll be 0.0001% of the supply by then, causing all the Ethereum to hold great value.

In the meantime Bitcoin will be earning it's security from transaction fees. Good luck with that.

Oh and gold? Well gold is 1% now, but there is a limited amount in the Earth. gold is likely to decrease it's percent too, until space mining is a thing.

MRO under a 1% scheme would be worse, as the supply will increase every year, causing MRO to lose value year after year forever.

I would prefer not to have a compounding 1% devaluation of everyones holdings for all time. :p

I really like the idea of lowest reward being 1 MRO per block. Remember that transaction fees would also add quite a bit by that time (As this assumes MRO is being widely used in 20 - 40 years and hasn't died!)

[eizh]

Regarding inflation after the 18,000,000 coins are minted.

I believe that a constant amount of coin release is superior to a 1% inflation. The Ethereum guys are going to probably do it this way.

1% constantly devalues everyones coins, whereas if we just made the final block reward 1 MRO, thats about 500,000 mro per year (Or 250,000 per year with 2 minute blocks). It would be about 2% inflation for that year it came into effect, but would gradually become less than 1%.

A fixed eventual supply of 500,000 mro is going to always be enough to entice miners. Remember that the value of those 500,000 will probably increase as time goes on.

A 1% reward will just devalue the currency for everyone else.

A constant supply will create a long term rare coin without the reward problem that Bitcoin will run into.

I am a fan of the economic model of constant supply. I am not a fan of 1% inflation.

Either one devalues. In practice, the difference isn't that great for these low magnitudes. If we started at 1% (0.333 fixed minimum), then it would be around 0.6% in 2070. 1.0 MRO fixed is actually much more inflationary within the lifetime of anyone here today. It would start at ~3% and go to ~1.2% around 2070.

No matter what we do, it's pure guesswork. The real decision would have to be made by future devs; same for Bitcoin. Who knows what the financial or technological landscape will look like even 10 years from now?

[skyyyy]

how to withdraw MRO from poloniex?

[damiano]

Regarding inflation after the 18,000,000 coins are minted.

I believe that a constant amount of coin release is superior to a 1% inflation. The Ethereum guys are going to probably do it this way.

1% constantly devalues everyones coins, whereas if we just made the final block reward 1 MRO, thats about 500,000 mro per year (Or 250,000 per year with 2 minute blocks). It would be about 2% inflation for that year it came into effect, but would gradually become less than 1%.

A fixed eventual supply of 500,000 mro is going to always be enough to entice miners. Remember that the value of those 500,000 will probably increase as time goes on.

A 1% reward will just devalue the currency for everyone else.

A constant supply will create a long term rare coin without the reward problem that Bitcoin will run into.

I am a fan of the economic model of constant supply. I am not a fan of 1% inflation.

This is an excellent idea.  I really hope the dev team takes a look at this.

[drawingthesun]

The real decision would have to be made by future devs; same for Bitcoin. Who knows what the financial or technological landscape will look like even 10 years from now?

Well these coins are a social contract with their users.

We need to sort out the reward and eventual supply now, this has to be finalised otherwise people will not invest.

The Bitcoin social contract that states the supply will not go over 21,000,000 will not change. It'll never happen. People invested into Bitcoin knowing what they were getting into.

Even if we never change the MRO emission curve (We bought into the MRO social contract too.) We must now at least finalise the inflation model. I remember seeing it on the first page of this thread, that it has yet to be decided.

I want it to be finalised now. I know mistakes we make now are with us forever, but people need to know what the future of MRO looks like in regards to coin release. In an age where XC and DarkCoin are cutting coin release and making all their coins worth infinitely more, we are at odds putting in functions that devalue our holdings.

If it's going to be a percentage, I would prefer 0.5%

If it's going to be an absolute amount, I would prefer 250,000 MRO per year after initial coin emission. This can be done with 1 MRO reward with 2 minute blocks.

Whatever it is, we need to decide on a final Monero social contract to eliminate all uncertainty regarding coin release.

[Keyboard-Mash]

I think a decent comparison might be made with gold here. Comparing the total amount of gold in the world (estimate) to the amount produced per year may yield some interesting numbers.

I got into Bitcoin because I don't want a similar release to gold. (Or banks!)

I see where you're coming from, and I still have a lot of reading to do that can convince me that banks can totally be ruled out. I've said before that there's nothing really stopping anyone (third party) from issuing promise notes in order to facilitate high volume off-chain transactions. All it would take is just a few people who are willing to accept the tender .. and the day that someone accepts it and then returns the note to the issuer and is rewarded the amount of MRO on the bill is the day that will become a reality.

I could ultimately see that leading to fractional reserve banking. How could we ultimately deal with this, other than slowing the evolution of something like that to a crawl?

Having the value of the coins not approaching infinity (with some form of debasement either through a constant emission, or interest rate) is a good start, but also not having the value approach zero (by having either of those two features not be too aggressive). The only way I can see this happening is with a variable emission (you seem to favor a fixed one) or variable inflation rate .. but you may very well be right about a fixed emission (I don't have the depth to fully understand the long term effects)

Ethereum is the only coin doing it right I think, it'll be a constant supply and people can mine the same amount of Ethereum in a thousand years, but of course it'll be 0.0001% of the supply by then, causing all the Ethereum to hold great value.

At some point, the constant supply will be small enough that the value of the coins would approach infinity .. I can't see out 1000 years but .0001% seems an awfully small number that can easily be overcome.

In the meantime Bitcoin will be earning it's security from transaction fees. Good luck with that.

I can definitely agree with you that security cannot be sustained solely by transaction fees.

Oh and gold? Well gold is 1% now, but there is a limited amount in the Earth. gold is likely to decrease it's percent too, until space mining is a thing.

I was only trying to offer it as an example of a natural restriction on inflation. There's no way the inflation has been a solid 1.5% for 6000 years .. it changes with our ability to produce and mine it (and want it). I would think the 1.5% would be a maximum, and agree that the amount in the ground is finite.

MRO under a 1% scheme would be worse, as the supply will increase every year, causing MRO to lose value year after year forever.

I would prefer not to have a compounding 1% devaluation of everyones holdings for all time. :p

I agree, 1% fixed probably isn't ideal. I also agree that the problem may be solved with an emission rather than a targeted inflation. But I still feel that there should be some years where the inflation is much less than 1% or the emission should be a number much less than the targeted emission, regardless of which method is chosen. A variable rate based on constantly changing variables. I think Aminorex mentioned that we should look at transaction volume, as the number of transactions, and use that as a factor as well.

[hamiltino]

Does anyone have any recommendations on an adequate cpu mining setup?

[drawingthesun]

At some point, the constant supply will be small enough that the value of the coins would approach infinity .. I can't see out 1000 years but .0001% seems an awfully small number that can easily be overcome.

I agree, 1% fixed probably isn't ideal. I also agree that the problem may be solved with an emission rather than a targeted inflation. But I still feel that there should be some years where the inflation is much less than 1% or the emission should be a number much less than the targeted emission, regardless of which method is chosen. A variable rate based on constantly changing variables. I think Aminorex mentioned that we should look at transaction volume, as the number of transactions, and use that as a factor as well.

Good points.

I think transaction volume is not a good metric, it can be gamed far too easily.

And an absolute number does cause the existing supply to approach infinity.

Perhaps a percentage, but just lower? 1% is so high it really feels dirty! :p

What do you think about something like 0.5% or even 0.25%?

[tacotime]

Reminder for pool ops wanting to use the experimental version with fixed block reward/mempool algos, follow these instructions for linux:

Code:

git clone git://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero.git
cd bitmonero
git remote add upstream git://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero.git
git checkout --track origin/0.8.8update
mkdir build
make -j4

[Keyboard-Mash]

I think transaction volume is not a good metric, it can be gamed far too easily.

And an absolute number does cause the existing supply to approach infinity.

Perhaps a percentage, but just lower? 1% is so high it really feels dirty! :p

What do you think about something like 0.5% or even 0.25%?

Expanding your point that the amount of gold is finite ... I would think we might be able to use variables like our cumulative difficulty. To me, that means overall demand for the coin. Compared to gold, there is no real limit to the amount of MRO that can be produced.

Maybe taking that variable, as part of total demand, could be used to set up a differential (applied over a certain time period ..week,month,day,or year) that we can put toward coming up with a targeted emission/inflation rate (per week,month, day or year). When demand is (edit: accelerating to a high) high, we set the inflation/supply higher and when it is low we can set those numbers lower. as far as the actual rate I'd like to hope for something lower than 1% ... but maybe a low limit of .1% and a high limit of 2%?

I'll try to think of real world things what we could use to further define the bounds, but making any particular choice (edit: probably 1%, hopefully lower) wouldn't be a bad place to start. Right now while we're producing so many coins I wouldn't want any more inflation honestly, so i hope it would be something that kicks in in 4-8 years.

[tacotime]

Thanks for the update! I'll try it out now too. Maybe you or someone explained this already, but how does the regular update work? Does it restrict tx sizes by denying large size transactions and couple the larger ones with the higher fee? Or are all tx's going to have the same fee you set regardless of size now? What's different with the experimental update 0.8.8? Does it scale on the medium block size or something?

It's a fairly severe bug introduced by TFT. The penalty free block size is the median block size (right now ~20kb), and block reward decays exponentially with block sizes that are larger than the median block size. The maximum block size is 2 * median block size, and as you approach that you rapidly approach a reward of zero. When TFT replaced the old tx mempool getblocktemplate generating code (which had a bug that caused blockchain halting), he made it so that all tx would be included in blocks regardless of the penalty they incur. This is why we're seeing problems now with block reward.

In my update, I have limited the maximum possible penalty incurred to about 9% of the block reward (so at worst instead of 16.5 you get ~15.0 MRO, and aren't penalized any more than this).  The median block size will now grow more slowly.

The ideal behaviour, as proposed in the cryptonote paper, is to only include tx with fees large enough to compensate for the penalty. I'm not sure this would even work as they intend as the incentives are kind of bizarre (it probably incentivizes hoarding tx and not sending them to other miners so you can reap larger rewards). I will be working on a more elaborate fees and penalty algorithm for the mempool, but this will have to do for now.

The severity of the issue may be directly observed here: http://monerochain.info/charts/reward

[tw007tw007]

guys does anyone know when we will get a gui wallet

I do hope this takes a very very long time. I like it the way it is, its simple computing at its finest

I hope so, I also like the way it is!

[tw007tw007]

I was wondering if this coin is a good buy, but I saw that this coin traded for 80% less than yesterday, why did it go down so much?

The market is change constantly, we can only judge the investment value according to its situation!
 

[blaaaaacksuit]

I was wondering if this coin is a good buy, but I saw that this coin traded for 80% less than yesterday, why did it go down so much?

The market is change constantly, we can only judge the investment value according to its situation!
 

Everything in this universe is a spring.