[ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"

[djhomeschool]

At this point, a digger would have to dig roughly 250k wallet addresses to be able to 51% attack the coin - an exceedingly unlikely proposition, and the number increases by approximately 300 per day.

The thing that I have wanted to write a long post about and have not gotten around to is that value is created by having something to do with the coin, and while there are certain other sites where you can transact with CLAMs, its adoption for non-gambling purposes has been very low. And it seems like the people involved in CLAM at the high levels have been content to not extend any effort into anything other than JD.

I am working on a website where you will be able to purchase items (ones people will want) with CLAM, though unfortunately the coin processor I am using (Coinpayments) does not support CLAM, so the transactions will be done manually. But a big part of my reason for doing it is answering the call of people in JD chat who say "I wish I had something I could do with my CLAMs other than switch them back to BTC and cash out" or who don't want to sell them on the open market because they don't want to negatively impact the price.

It's actually up already, but in "gamma testing", so I'm not doing any promo yet. If you catch me in JD chat, I might spill the beans.

[EGStrategies]

It's cute that people say this, but JD has controlled more than 50% of the coin supply ever since I've been using it. It's over 70% currently, peaked around 77% recently, somebody big divested, it would seem.

Yes, but it is not Doog's money, but from the investors, and there is no one big investor: http://just-dice.blogspot.de/search/label/bankroll

Control isn't a question of whose money it is in this case. Doog has the keys, so they have control, simple as that.

I don't see this as a problem the way CLAM is now (being used mostly as a chip at just-dice). The way it stands is actually closer than most crypto projects to some kind of workable model for sustainability and value growth the way I see it. CLAM actually has a valuable use which is to make bets or invest on just-dice. There are substitutes... other dice sites that use btc, other crypto gaming avenues, but a big reason I am a long term CLAM holder and will continue to be is that I find Just-Dice to be the best crypto gaming and investing experience that there is. And as with most things that are the best, the margin is wide between it and the competition and this is seen in the site's passionate users.  I think that's really the best reason there is to buy CLAM today and hold it for long term value appreciation from this price. People will continue to bet at Just-Dice at a suitable ratio of total bets / total coin supply (and at a growing rate) to a point where there will be active trade in the coin for the long-term (as there is currently).

Considering this, the proprietor of the economic engine behind this self-contained value ecosystem (i.e. Doog) having control of >50% of active coins (as has been the case for about a year at least). Is not a problem. It is not ideal, but is far less problematic than a dice site denominated in BTC because of the adverse incentive that would exist for the proprietor to violate trust and "break" the coin by doing an attack. The idea is that Doog wouldn't benefit from this because it would ruin the site once discovered and subsequently the coin would not have much value at all. Doog has every incentive to keep the coin healthy and employ as much security as possible to keep its functioning healthy.

A site operator of a btc-denominated site could much more easily violate trust because their offloading of the money would be far less difficult being soaked up by the btc ecosystem which covers a million different things rather than just one.

[thefix]

Its becoming very apparent how many people have been skimming off the back of dooglus

I don't understand what you mean. Can you explain?

1. Certain people creating shady services that benefited from the value you brought to Clam

No need for me to point any fingers I am sure its very clear to most


2. The uncertainty of more large holders/diggers with questionable ways they happened to have so many addresses

Clearly the large digger benefited immensely from the Value you brought to clam

Its just seems to me like many variables are out of your(most everyones) control

I guess everyone knows another 500,000 free clam holder could pop up tomorrow and its what we all signed up for

[dooglus]

At this point, a digger would have to dig roughly 250k wallet addresses to be able to 51% attack the coin - an exceedingly unlikely proposition, and the number increases by approximately 300 per day.

Well, he could dig some and buy some more. The entire market cap of CLAM is less than a million dollars at the moment, so it's by no means impossible for someone wealthy to mess with the coin "for the lulz".

The thing that I have wanted to write a long post about and have not gotten around to is that value is created by having something to do with the coin, and while there are certain other sites where you can transact with CLAMs, its adoption for non-gambling purposes has been very low. And it seems like the people involved in CLAM at the high levels have been content to not extend any effort into anything other than JD.

That's true, but I don't think it's their responsibility to do so. They make the coin available to us, and we are free to use it how we like. I found the coin and decided to use it at Just-Dice. The client wasn't in a state that worked for me, so I made a bunch of changes to it to make it work how I needed it to work, and contributed those changes back to the open source codebase. That's how it's meant to work - provide the services you want to see, and don't wait for "people at the high levels" to do it for you. In fact there are no "levels" - you're free to use and build CLAM however you like.

[EGStrategies]

Its becoming very apparent how many people have been skimming off the back of dooglus

I don't understand what you mean. Can you explain?

1. Certain people creating shady services that benefited from the value you brought to Clam

No need for me to point any fingers I am sure its very clear to most


2. The uncertainty of more large holders/diggers with questionable ways they happened to have so many addresses

Clearly the large digger benefited immensely from the Value you brought to clam

Its just seems to me like many variables are out of your(most everyones) control

I guess everyone knows another 500,000 free clam holder could pop up tomorrow and its what we all signed up for

I'd just like to add that Doog has brought a large amount of value to CLAM and continues to, it's not exhausted, it grows daily. It's kind of a miracle we are where we are to begin with, but I have hope that we will make it through these realities that have been borne out over the last months. The integrity of Just-Dice remains, the use of Just-Dice remains and grows, and CLAM will be great. We are going through a pain period, but the market is smart if you watch it. It's reacting well to the digger. It's making him sell CLAMs at an absolute steal. People will be rushing to buy them at 10x the price sooner than it seems, in my estimation. The investors of JD have shown that they are resilient, however they are composed, as this price drop has been managed beyond what should have been possible.

[thefix]

It's cute that people say this, but JD has controlled more than 50% of the coin supply ever since I've been using it. It's over 70% currently, peaked around 77% recently, somebody big divested, it would seem.

Yes, but it is not Doog's money, but from the investors, and there is no one big investor: http://just-dice.blogspot.de/search/label/bankroll

There is no way to know how many accounts one investor might have.

The danger of 51% attacks is very real until and unless the coin becomes much more widely distributed and used for more things besides investing in the JD bankroll. Most people trust dooglus (or the coin would have no value) but things can go wrong. The site can be hacked. He might sell it. Or, he might turn bad after all.

More large diggers are probably an advantage for security especially if they stake their own coins. If they invest in JD or sell to people who invest in JD then it is no change. It's pretty unlikely that a single new (huge!) digger is going to come along and dig up enough to 51% attack by himself and that becomes even more unlikely the more coins are dug up (including by this current whale digger) and staked.

I agree with you on this point, as much as I think dooglus is an honorable person you should never keep all your clams in one clam basket. I keep a small portion on his site, but a majority of what I have stakes in multiple wallets. More people staking and less clams in a centralized location makes for a better network. We could solve the issue now if people would just take half of what they have on Jd and stake on a local wallet.

[dooglus]

1. Certain people creating shady services that benefited from the value you brought to Clam

No need for me to point any fingers I am sure its very clear to most

I have NoAreaClue who you could be referring to.

2. The uncertainty of more large holders/diggers with questionable ways they happened to have so many addresses

Clearly the large digger benefited immensely from the Value you brought to clam

Its just seems to me like many variables are out of your(most everyones) control

I guess everyone knows another 500,000 free clam holder could pop up tomorrow and its what we all signed up for

OK, I see. Undoubtedly the digger made (and will make) a whole lot of money that he wouldn't have made if Just-Dice hadn't adopted CLAM.

I don't have a problem with that though. I guess your word "skimming" made it sound like you were implying some kind of a scam, whereas I don't think either of your examples are scammy - just opportunistic.

[EGStrategies]

[/quote]

We could solve the issue now if people would just take half of what they have on Jd and stake on a local wallet.
[/quote]

Imagine everyone did this. Everyone's exposure to betting would remain the same as before (at their desired level). Nothing would change except that we would have much better security. Then one person goes to 52%/48% to get that little edge, and sooner or later you are at equilibrium (right now). The only solution to this problem is probably to brain wipe all CLAM investors, close off investment, and implant the investors with a religion where the mortal sin is changing your ratio to 50%/50%. On the upside if we did this, we could finally have the army of farmers we need sustain that Just-Dice CLAM off-grid cult farm.

[jaysabi]

It's cute that people say this, but JD has controlled more than 50% of the coin supply ever since I've been using it. It's over 70% currently, peaked around 77% recently, somebody big divested, it would seem.

Yes, but it is not Doog's money, but from the investors, and there is no one big investor: http://just-dice.blogspot.de/search/label/bankroll

He who has the private keys owns the money. It is most certainly "Doog's money" at the present because he has the power to control it. He's just promised to return it to your control upon your request, and there's no reason at all to doubt he won't, but don't be confused about the fact that it's not your money until it's returned to your control. The fact remains that this decentralized currency is very centrally concentrated under the control of one person presently.

[thefix]

1. Certain people creating shady services that benefited from the value you brought to Clam

No need for me to point any fingers I am sure its very clear to most

I have NoAreaClue who you could be referring to.

2. The uncertainty of more large holders/diggers with questionable ways they happened to have so many addresses

Clearly the large digger benefited immensely from the Value you brought to clam

Its just seems to me like many variables are out of your(most everyones) control

I guess everyone knows another 500,000 free clam holder could pop up tomorrow and its what we all signed up for

OK, I see. Undoubtedly the digger made (and will make) a whole lot of money that he wouldn't have made if Just-Dice hadn't adopted CLAM.

I don't have a problem with that though. I guess your word "skimming" made it sound like you were implying some kind of a scam, whereas I don't think either of your examples are scammy - just opportunistic.

opportunistic is probably a better word, but I am not ruling out scammy yet.

[jaysabi]

Ok, guys. I'm the whale digger. I can prove it if necessary.

Yes, it is true that I am digging and selling my CLAMs for BTC. Though I am not dumping hard. I usually just put asks above the market price. I rarely ever do a market sell order. So although I am adding sell pressure to the price by adding asks to the orderbook, I am not "dumping" technically. The main reason why the price crashed hard is because the fear of me dumping. This lead everyone else to dump.

If you're not holding, you're dumping. I think that being measured about it doesn't change this fact. This is not to say that it's a bad thing (I'm agnostic about that), but call a spade a spade. Btw, thanks for identifying yourself and adding some small measure of clarity to this situation. I do believe that anyone else here, if they found themselves in your shoes, would be responding to the same economic incentive in much the same manner you are.

[dooglus]

He who has the private keys owns the money. It is most certainly "Doog's money" at the present because he has the power to control it.

I disagree.

When you lend me your car for the day does it become my car just because I have the keys? Just because I could steal it if I wanted to?

When you call the cops on me do they say "well, he has the key, so it's his car now". They don't. Ownership is something more than simple control.

The fact remains that this decentralized currency is very centrally concentrated under the control of one person presently.

Indeed. One look at http://blocktree.io/richlist/CLAM tells you that.

[AltcoinScamfinder]

If you're not holding, you're dumping. I think that being measured about it doesn't change this fact. This is not to say that it's a bad thing (I'm agnostic about that), but call a spade a spade. Btw, thanks for identifying yourself and adding some small measure of clarity to this situation. I do believe that anyone else here, if they found themselves in your shoes, would be responding to the same economic incentive in much the same manner you are.

Ok, you are right.

If i were you (I wish:) I would reach out to some deep pocketed members here on the forum and try to sell of clams outside of the exchanges. Then announce your positions here.

[jaysabi]

He who has the private keys owns the money. It is most certainly "Doog's money" at the present because he has the power to control it.

I disagree.

When you lend me your car for the day does it become my car just because I have the keys? Just because I could steal it if I wanted to?

When you call the cops on me do they say "well, he has the key, so it's his car now". They don't. Ownership is something more than simple control.

Aww Doog, that's not an appropriate analogy. In context, his statement was about dismissing the threat of JD being over 70% of all CLAM holders because all the money on JD belongs to investors, not you, which as we both know is not a salient point re: CLAM concentration. To use your analogy, my claim to "ownership" of the car in your example is completely irrelevant to your ability to smash it into the wall after I hand you the keys. No one is disputing the legal/moral claim to ownership of the coins on JD, but the ability to control them is what is in question. If you don't like the term "ownership," substitute it with Custody, which is what it's called in the financial world. That reflects that you don't rightfully own it, but you have full ability to control it.

[djhomeschool]

That's true, but I don't think it's their responsibility to do so. They make the coin available to us, and we are free to use it how we like. I found the coin and decided to use it at Just-Dice. The client wasn't in a state that worked for me, so I made a bunch of changes to it to make it work how I needed it to work, and contributed those changes back to the open source codebase. That's how it's meant to work - provide the services you want to see, and don't wait for "people at the high levels" to do it for you. In fact there are no "levels" - you're free to use and build CLAM however you like.

My tone on this page and the last may seem more antagonistic than it really is, doog, but this is typical open source rhetoric - we're not all coders.

[smooth]

That's true, but I don't think it's their responsibility to do so. They make the coin available to us, and we are free to use it how we like. I found the coin and decided to use it at Just-Dice. The client wasn't in a state that worked for me, so I made a bunch of changes to it to make it work how I needed it to work, and contributed those changes back to the open source codebase. That's how it's meant to work - provide the services you want to see, and don't wait for "people at the high levels" to do it for you. In fact there are no "levels" - you're free to use and build CLAM however you like.

My tone on this page and the last may seem more antagonistic than it really is, doog, but this is typical open source rhetoric - we're not all coders.

That's hardly the point. He contributed code back but other people can contribute in other ways. A lot of marketing and trying to convince sites to support a coin can be done by anyone. In fact it is often more effective if it comes from many grass roots supporters than from a few coin developers.

[clf99]

He who has the private keys owns the money. It is most certainly "Doog's money" at the present because he has the power to control it.

I disagree.

When you lend me your car for the day does it become my car just because I have the keys? Just because I could steal it if I wanted to?

When you call the cops on me do they say "well, he has the key, so it's his car now". They don't. Ownership is something more than simple control.

The fact remains that this decentralized currency is very centrally concentrated under the control of one person presently.

Indeed. One look at http://blocktree.io/richlist/CLAM tells you that.

The top guy has 5%.  Why is that so bad?  It's like that in real life with dollars isn't it?

[thefix]

He who has the private keys owns the money. It is most certainly "Doog's money" at the present because he has the power to control it.

I disagree.

When you lend me your car for the day does it become my car just because I have the keys? Just because I could steal it if I wanted to?

When you call the cops on me do they say "well, he has the key, so it's his car now". They don't. Ownership is something more than simple control.

The fact remains that this decentralized currency is very centrally concentrated under the control of one person presently.

Indeed. One look at http://blocktree.io/richlist/CLAM tells you that.

The top guy has 5%.  Why is that so bad?  It's like that in real life with dollars isn't it?

Its over 70% of the current supply and that is bad from a network security standpoint

[AltcoinScamfinder]

He who has the private keys owns the money. It is most certainly "Doog's money" at the present because he has the power to control it.

I disagree.

When you lend me your car for the day does it become my car just because I have the keys? Just because I could steal it if I wanted to?

When you call the cops on me do they say "well, he has the key, so it's his car now". They don't. Ownership is something more than simple control.

The fact remains that this decentralized currency is very centrally concentrated under the control of one person presently.

Indeed. One look at http://blocktree.io/richlist/CLAM tells you that.

The top guy has 5%.  Why is that so bad?  It's like that in real life with dollars isn't it?

Its over 70% of the current supply and that is bad from a network security standpoint

I don't see the problem. It's a currency that derives almost 100% of its value from Just-dice. Having the coins staked there seems as safe as anything.

[SuperClam]

He who has the private keys owns the money. It is most certainly "Doog's money" at the present because he has the power to control it.

I disagree.
When you lend me your car for the day does it become my car just because I have the keys? Just because I could steal it if I wanted to?
When you call the cops on me do they say "well, he has the key, so it's his car now". They don't. Ownership is something more than simple control.

The fact remains that this decentralized currency is very centrally concentrated under the control of one person presently.

Indeed. One look at http://blocktree.io/richlist/CLAM tells you that.

The top guy has 5%.  Why is that so bad?  It's like that in real life with dollars isn't it?

Its over 70% of the current supply and that is bad from a network security standpoint

I don't see the problem. It's a currency that derives almost 100% of its value from Just-dice. Having the coins staked there seems as safe as anything.

The comments concerning network security are correct.
A large concentration of the staking weight injects the element of trust into the system.
A party willing to wait the time for additional confirms can minimize this trust to a degree.
But, the system is intended to allow users to not require such trust.

Just-Dice has been undoubtedly positive for the awareness and utility of CLAM, and continues to be so.
The solution, as previously mentioned, is to grow our way out of it.
We need additional services and utility, as well as code updates or software which make self-staking CLAM more seamless.

If anyone has the skill and motivation to create a service around CLAM, but needs a bit of help, please feel free to stop in to freenode IRC, channel #clams. 
We would be happy to help.