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Author Topic: [ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"  (Read 651583 times)
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rocoro
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November 29, 2015, 05:23:50 AM
 #5721

What is the largest amount that is safe to split up using:

Code:
sendtoaddress theaddressyoursplittingto '{"count":c,"amount":a}'

Its fine to do a large amount at one time?  Also, those will all stake as separate outputs?

Is it better to do this between separate wallet on separate computers?   
In other words, what if on the same wallet / machine I add more coins at a later date, then I try to do the same thing, will it pull from the other outputs and mess things up?

Thanks.


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Even in the event that an attacker gains more than 50% of the network's computational power, only transactions sent by the attacker could be reversed or double-spent. The network would not be destroyed.
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November 29, 2015, 05:31:16 AM
 #5722

Somewhat agree. Unfortunately what did change is that the episode revealed that many in this community, including unfortunately the lead developers, are not committed to the unique attributes of the coin and willing to throw all that under the bus as soon as people start crying about the price. That is a fundamental negative. Ideally they would walk some of that back, but even so the damage is done.

What unique attributes are the developers not committed to?

He's referring to the developers being open to the idea of changing the consensus rules to change the initial distribution.

The initial distribution was (is?) unique.

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November 29, 2015, 05:41:00 AM
 #5723


What is the largest amount that is safe to split up using:

Code:
sendtoaddress theaddressyoursplittingto '{"count":c,"amount":a}'

Its fine to do a large amount at one time?  Also, those will all stake as separate outputs?

Thanks.

I don't think there's a limit on the amount you can split, until you start hitting dogecoin-like amounts, in the billions.

There is a limit on transaction size however - no transaction can be bigger than 100,000 bytes, and so that limits the number of outputs you can create. The client will complain if you try to create too many.

When I try to create 10k outputs:

Quote
$ clamd sendtoaddress xDoogLusZTyYF45mwy3BwNp2rnGCmV2R9j '{"count":10000,"amount":0.00000001}'

I see this in the terminal:

Quote
error code: -4
error message: Error: Transaction creation failed!

and this in the debug.log:

Quote
2015-11-29 05:34:04 CWallet::CreateTransaction failed: transaction too big (340840 >= 100000)

And when I try to create 3k outputs, this in the debug.log:

Quote
2015-11-29 05:34:52 CWallet::CreateTransaction failed: transaction too big (102693 >= 100000)

So somewhere around 2900 outputs seems to be the limit, although it will depend on the number of inputs, and whether the addresses are compressed or not.

They will stake separately, but may be recombined when you stake, depending on your config.

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November 29, 2015, 05:52:11 AM
 #5724

Our CLAM - The CLAMour Specification




CLAMour will allow the stakeholders of CLAM to record their support for changes to the CLAM network consensus rules.

CLAMour gives the community a method of establishing what changes are supported.
Supported changes can then be implemented (by anybody) with a high chance of being accepted by the majority of the staking weight.

The process is designed to be decentralized and provable.
There is no need for permission to propose a change to the network.
It is designed such that any user can 'create' a petition and evangelize to fellow CLAM stakeholders for support.
It will aggregate data on what changes are supported by stakeholders over a time window.

CLAMour happens on-chain using the existing CLAMspeech transaction field so no update to the core software is required to participate.
An optional update will be provided to make the process more user-friendly.

The following rules are a draft proposal.





CLAMour Petitions

CLAMour petitions are specially formatted CLAMspeech messages.
A petition is a block of free-form text describing the change to be made in sufficient detail to unambiguously implement the change.
Code isn’t required, but specificity is.
Each petition is identified by a petition ID, which is the first 8 hex digits of the sha256 hash of its text.




Registering a CLAMour Petition

Before a petition can be voted for, it must be registered on-chain.

This can be done simply by creating any transaction (coinstake or regular) with a CLAMspeech message saying:
Code:
create clamour <sha256> <URL/Link>
where:
Code:
<sha256>
is the full 64 hex digit lowercase sha256 hash of the full petition text, and
Code:
<URL/Link>
is the full URL (http://etc) for the text or document that has been hashed.

The first 8 hex digits of this hash should be unique, since they will be used as the petition ID.
In the unlikely event of a collision, you’ll need to slightly edit the petition text.

The text itself can be stored wherever you like.
It is the responsibility of the community supporting the petition to disseminate the petition ID.
It is planned that the reference client will be able to assist with this in the future.




Supporting a CLAMour Petition

Once a petition has been registered on-chain, anyone can vote for it by staking a block with the CLAMspeech field set to:
Code:
clamour <pid>
where <pid> is the 8 hex digit petition ID of the petition being supported.

It is possible to register support for multiple petitions at once by listing multiple space-separated petition IDs:
Code:
clamour <pid1> <pid2> <pid3> …
Only CLAMspeech messages associated with staked blocks ('coinstake') will be counted.

Petition support will be counted over a 10,000 block rolling window representing approximately one week’s worth of blocks.
(60 * 24 * 7 = 10,080).




Creating a CLAMour Petition
Step-by-Step Instructions

Write the petition.


If you are using version 1.4.19 of the reference client or newer and wish to use its new GUI feature to create your petition:

Click the tab:
Code:
CLAMour

Enter the petition text into the textbox:
Code:
Create Petition

Click the button:
Code:
Create Identifier
to create the sha256 hash of your petition.

Optionally, click the button:
Code:
Set Vote
to immediately begin staking with the new petition ID.

Post the petition text/document, with the attached petition ID to a public forum.


If you are using an older version of the client, or don’t wish to use the new GUI feature:

sha256 hash the petition text/document. SHA256 Calculator

The first 8 hex digits of the hash are the petition ID.

Create a transaction with CLAMspeech set to:
Code:
create clamour <sha256>


Where:
Code:
<sha256>

is the full 64 hex digit hash.

Post the petition text/document, with the attached petition ID to a public forum.
It is now up to you to rally support for the petition and prove that the network supports the change.




Supporting a CLAMour Petition (voting)
Step-by-Step Instructions

Set your stake(coinstake) CLAMspeech to:
Code:
clamour <pid>

Replace:
Code:
<pid>
with the (space-separated) 8 hex digit petition ID(s) you intend to support.

Stake as normal.
The more blocks you stake, the more votes you will cast.




Setting the Stake CLAMspeech Message
Step-by-Step Instructions

In the following, <pid> should be replaced by the (space-separated) list of petition IDs you wish to support.


When using version 1.4.18 of the reference client or older

There is no way of specifying a default CLAMspeech to be used only when staking, so we have to set a CLAMspeech which is used for all transactions.
Only speech in staking transactions will be counted as 'votes'.

Either, using the console inside clam-qt:
Code:
setspeech “clamour <pid>”

Or, using the operating system command line:
Code:
clamd setspeech “clamour <pid>”


When using version 1.4.19 of the reference client or newer.

To use the User-Interface:
Click the Tab:
Code:
CLAMour

Enter the petition ID(s) you wish to support, one per line, into the textbox:
Code:
Petition ID

Click the button:
Code:
Set Vote

To use the console or command-line:

Either, using the console inside clam-qt:
Code:
setstakespeech “clamour pid”

Or, using the operating system command line:
Code:
clamd setstakespeech “clamour pid”




Interpreting the Data

In the event that two petition texts have the same 8 hex digit petition ID, the one with the “create clamour <sha256>” registration speech which appears first in the blockchain is the one being supported by votes.
This prevents an attacker from faking support for an unpopular petition by brute-forcing a partial hash collision.

A 'majority' exists when greater than 50% of staked blocks over the window express support for a petition.

A 'super-majority' exists when greater than 75% of staked blocks over the window express support for a petition.

These definitions serve to inform our discussion about the data.
Following discussion, decisions will be made.
The impact, security, and likelihood of success of any change to the network will be considered.

EDIT:
Corrected erroneous command.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623147
Proof-Of-Chain, 100% Distributed BEFORE Launch.
Everyone who owned BTC, LTC, or DOGE at launch got free CLAMS.
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November 29, 2015, 06:01:12 AM
 #5725

The next 24 hours are extremely busy for me; I will try to check in periodically if I can.

dooglus will likely keep us updated on the progress of the UI for the users of Just-Dice.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623147
Proof-Of-Chain, 100% Distributed BEFORE Launch.
Everyone who owned BTC, LTC, or DOGE at launch got free CLAMS.
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November 29, 2015, 06:30:38 AM
 #5726

Has anyone already done this comparison?

Supply:
14.900.000 CLAM (including not digged)
14,896,275 BTC
Emision:
20 CLAM in 20 minutes
25 BTC in 20 minutes

In the future there will be more supply of BTC than CLAM. Will it affect the price in long time?
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November 29, 2015, 06:45:17 AM
 #5727

Has anyone already done this comparison?

Supply:
14.900.000 CLAM (including not digged)
14,896,275 BTC
Emision:
20 CLAM in 20 minutes
25 BTC in 20 minutes

In the future there will be more supply of BTC than CLAM. Will it affect the price in long time?

 I don't think clam has a limit on the total supply

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November 29, 2015, 08:39:30 AM
 #5728


I m not angry, I m just disappointed. Cause every great project in crypto gets destroyed by the greed, stupidity and selfishness.


True words.

Some of us are angry with whale digger because he is greedy, his dumping is destroying coin, etc.
So, some of us wants to disable digging option because they are greedy and when they are seeing the price goes down they start screaming: "We owns the clams, we are the 'early adopters' and everyone else have to buy clams from us (evil laugh)"

Removing the dig option kills this coin. Because coin is not just about price but also about people willing to use it.

And I am saying it as owner of not trivial amount of clams. (Also I have some undug on some vaulted bitcoin paperwallets)
I am not happy to see price going down, but I feel its unfair to change rules when they started being unpleasant to "us".
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November 29, 2015, 11:04:17 AM
 #5729


I m not angry, I m just disappointed. Cause every great project in crypto gets destroyed by the greed, stupidity and selfishness.


True words.

Some of us are angry with whale digger because he is greedy, his dumping is destroying coin, etc.
So, some of us wants to disable digging option because they are greedy and when they are seeing the price goes down they start screaming: "We owns the clams, we are the 'early adopters' and everyone else have to buy clams from us (evil laugh)"

Removing the dig option kills this coin. Because coin is not just about price but also about people willing to use it.

And I am saying it as owner of not trivial amount of clams. (Also I have some undug on some vaulted bitcoin paperwallets)
I am not happy to see price going down, but I feel its unfair to change rules when they started being unpleasant to "us".
By removing the core distribution process from clam, would kill this coin. Be glad that the digger dumped like he did, else we would end up with who knows how low prices.
If you can't take the volatility of an altcoin you shouldn't even be here. You still have the option of cashing out before the digger dumps the rest of his stash. Give the market some time to shift into place.
Clam will end up being around 10k sats before it starts rising again.
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November 29, 2015, 11:49:32 AM
 #5730


I m not angry, I m just disappointed. Cause every great project in crypto gets destroyed by the greed, stupidity and selfishness.


True words.

Some of us are angry with whale digger because he is greedy, his dumping is destroying coin, etc.
So, some of us wants to disable digging option because they are greedy and when they are seeing the price goes down they start screaming: "We owns the clams, we are the 'early adopters' and everyone else have to buy clams from us (evil laugh)"

Removing the dig option kills this coin. Because coin is not just about price but also about people willing to use it.

And I am saying it as owner of not trivial amount of clams. (Also I have some undug on some vaulted bitcoin paperwallets)
I am not happy to see price going down, but I feel its unfair to change rules when they started being unpleasant to "us".
By removing the core distribution process from clam, would kill this coin. Be glad that the digger dumped like he did, else we would end up with who knows how low prices.
If you can't take the volatility of an altcoin you shouldn't even be here. You still have the option of cashing out before the digger dumps the rest of his stash. Give the market some time to shift into place.
Clam will end up being around 10k sats before it starts rising again.

What do you mean dumped? He has not dumped 1/3 of his stash and CLAM price is already almost 10% of what it was 2 months ago. Ok, since all of you think my suggestions are inadequate and this digging and dumping is actually a good thing for CLAM, fine, so be it. Let us see how low it can go. I will not mention this issue anymore cause the community obviously thinks differently. Happy dumping to the digger.

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November 29, 2015, 12:06:46 PM
 #5731


By removing the core distribution process from clam, would kill this coin.

completely agree, why changing the rules..set up rules should never be changed.

Okay, i agree..i was completely sarcastic..you think 0.009 is the bottom line?

Just wait for the next digger..

if people think its not about the price, what then?

the spread of clam to be used on many other sites than JD?

That we dont have, 2-3 other gambling sites and thats it..

it doesnt need to be a genius to realize keeping the dig feature in the coin, will repeat this mess we have now over and over.

Just my opinion and apologize upfront if i sound a bit defensive.

Greetings, Chuck

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November 29, 2015, 12:32:46 PM
 #5732

Doog is time for your snapshot! You don't need these.
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November 29, 2015, 12:40:41 PM
 #5733

Our CLAM - The CLAMour Specification

Looking great. Thanks for all the work put into this. Not sure about the 10,000 block time frame though, it doesn't seem like enough time for a real vote to occur. Is the Clamour name a take on the word clamor?

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November 29, 2015, 12:44:05 PM
 #5734

curious, has anyone approached you about negotiating a lump buyout of your remaining Clams? I'd guess you have about 200,000 based on that sell order that was at .0045 on Poloniex. Perhaps a coalition of JD investors/gamblers would be interested in getting a lot at a fixed price.

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November 29, 2015, 12:53:58 PM
 #5735

i think u should vote to stop the bleeding

Every year the world is getting more peaceful.
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November 29, 2015, 01:19:31 PM
 #5736

They will stake separately, but may be recombined when you stake, depending on your config.

So, how do you set the config so they won't recombine?

Thanks.

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November 29, 2015, 01:22:21 PM
 #5737

What do you mean dumped? He has not dumped 1/3 of his stash and CLAM price is already almost 10% of what it was 2 months ago. Ok, since all of you think my suggestions are inadequate and this digging and dumping is actually a good thing for CLAM, fine, so be it. Let us see how low it can go. I will not mention this issue anymore cause the community obviously thinks differently. Happy dumping to the digger.

You're obviously very passionate about this.  Are you passionate enough about it to use the new voting system, or you'd rather just complain on forums?
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November 29, 2015, 01:41:47 PM
 #5738

What do you mean dumped? He has not dumped 1/3 of his stash and CLAM price is already almost 10% of what it was 2 months ago. Ok, since all of you think my suggestions are inadequate and this digging and dumping is actually a good thing for CLAM, fine, so be it. Let us see how low it can go. I will not mention this issue anymore cause the community obviously thinks differently. Happy dumping to the digger.

You're obviously very passionate about this.  Are you passionate enough about it to use the new voting system, or you'd rather just complain on forums?

Why would I start a voting campaign over something only I think should be done? Besides one or two guys here, most of the community thinks digging and dumping is the best way to move forward. Ok, I respect this, majority rules.

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November 29, 2015, 01:43:12 PM
 #5739

curious, has anyone approached you about negotiating a lump buyout of your remaining Clams? I'd guess you have about 200,000 based on that sell order that was at .0045 on Poloniex. Perhaps a coalition of JD investors/gamblers would be interested in getting a lot at a fixed price.

curious did post this earlier, so he does seem interested in selling privately:

By the way, if anyone wants to buy clams OTC, let me know.

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November 29, 2015, 02:02:00 PM
 #5740

The CLAMour voting system looks interesting. Good work!

About the current/future whale diggers, one possibility I haven't heard mentioned would be very simple and would dilute the initial distribution: increase the reward. There's at least a precedent for changing the reward system in Clams.

Maybe I'll make a CLAMour petition to increase the reward from 1 clam per block to, oh, say, 100 clams per block. This would increase the supply by about a million clams a week. Before long the initial distribution would be a relatively small percent of the total supply.

This would likely be terrible for the price. It might push us below 0.001. (<- That's intended as dark humour. I have looked at the price today.)

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