rpietila Altcoin Observer

[Este Nuno]

And the Poloniex IPO hasn't even started yet

Busoni will be bankrupted by lawsuits in 6 months if that happens.  It would be the end of Poloniex.

I'm sure the language will be corrected.

They've already done similar for Qibucks as I'm sure you know, being a Poloniex regular. Were people there saying similar things about Qibucks when they did the initial sale on Poloniex?

[aminorex]

And the Poloniex IPO hasn't even started yet

Busoni will be bankrupted by lawsuits in 6 months if that happens.  It would be the end of Poloniex.

I'm sure the language will be corrected.

They've already done similar for Qibucks as I'm sure you know, being a Poloniex regular. Were people there saying similar things about Qibucks when they did the initial sale on Poloniex?

Then it may be too late for poloniex.  I should probably pull my funds.

I don't think anybody even noticed QBK.  What was its high cap?  Enough to justify a lawsuit?

[rdnkjdi]

And the Poloniex IPO hasn't even started yet

Busoni will be bankrupted by lawsuits in 6 months if that happens.  It would be the end of Poloniex.

I'm sure the language will be corrected.

They've already done similar for Qibucks as I'm sure you know, being a Poloniex regular. Were people there saying similar things about Qibucks when they did the initial sale on Poloniex?

Then it may be too late for poloniex.  I should probably pull my funds.

I don't think anybody even noticed QBK.  What was its high cap?  Enough to justify a lawsuit?

Whoa whoa whoa wait.  Hang on ... why is Poloniex gonna go bankrupt?

[Este Nuno]

And the Poloniex IPO hasn't even started yet

Busoni will be bankrupted by lawsuits in 6 months if that happens.  It would be the end of Poloniex.

I'm sure the language will be corrected.

They've already done similar for Qibucks as I'm sure you know, being a Poloniex regular. Were people there saying similar things about Qibucks when they did the initial sale on Poloniex?

Then it may be too late for poloniex.  I should probably pull my funds.

I don't think anybody even noticed QBK.  What was its high cap?  Enough to justify a lawsuit?

It's Qiwoman's asset backed coin I believe. They sold off 100 BTC of it priced at 20k satoshi if I remember correctly. Bagholders get dividends when the coins that they hold go up I think. Don't quote me on that because I haven't really taken the time to read in to it too much. But I definitely saw the ICO happen live on Poloniex.

edit: qiwoman and jtgangus are the two names I recognize from the troll box that are behind it. Seems there are more though but those are the two names that jump out at me.

[Este Nuno]

Before everyone panics, does anyone have any lawyer friends who could perhaps drop in here and give their opinion?

Personally I love Poloniex and I would hate to see anything happen to them.

edit: https://poloniex.com/icdrequirements

I think it's going to be alright. Poloniex knows what they're doing.

I mean it's quite possible it's as simple as using the right language. Notice Poloniex refers to it only as "Initial Coin Distribution".

[Skinnkavaj]

Before everyone panics, does anyone have any lawyer friends who could perhaps drop in here and give their opinion?

Personally I love Poloniex and I would hate to see anything happen to them.

edit: https://poloniex.com/icdrequirements

I think it's going to be alright. Poloniex knows what their doing.

Poloniex and the free market making it's own rules in the wild west of BTC. SEC have more important things to harass.

[Este Nuno]

Before everyone panics, does anyone have any lawyer friends who could perhaps drop in here and give their opinion?

Personally I love Poloniex and I would hate to see anything happen to them.

edit: https://poloniex.com/icdrequirements

I think it's going to be alright. Poloniex knows what their doing.

Poloniex and the free market making it's own rules in the wild west of BTC. SEC have more important things to harass.

I hope you are right.

Last thing we need is more innovation stifled by bureaucrats.

[NewLiberty]

Before everyone panics, does anyone have any lawyer friends who could perhaps drop in here and give their opinion?

Personally I love Poloniex and I would hate to see anything happen to them.

edit: https://poloniex.com/icdrequirements

I think it's going to be alright. Poloniex knows what they're doing.

I mean it's quite possible it's as simple as using the right language. Notice Poloniex refers to it only as "Initial Coin Distribution".

Poloniex is registered with USA FINCen nationally as an MSB in the state of Montana.
If they stay in compliance, and don't get in hot water with the SEC, they should be OK unless the legal landscape changes.

[vokain]

^I do wish the input for the logo design and color scheme was a bit more openly crowdsourced.

It was very open.  There was a competition thread.  Many entries were submitted.  I have no idea of the mechanism by which the winner was selected.  I think it involved a consultant.  If so, they paid too much.  Boolberry's logo is not all that suitable, but it is an order of magnitude better.  Perhaps one day a reimaging might be considered.  I think it would be premature now.  The present choice has many virtues, in any case.  Even if it is ugly and orange.

I'm sorry, I wasn't too aware of the process when it happened since monero was then barely on my radar when I was just amateurishly mining MROs (when they were still called that). While I respect the move towards identity, at the same time, I'm just slightly put off that it's kind of generic, and that such a decision cannot be easily recalled. But the GUI is beautiful.

Can someone show me why orange and gray were the colors chosen aside from the fact it looks nice (in a generic way), or if there was any deeper symbolism to the logo? not that it matters much but man and his symbols always fascinate me

[Joshuar]

^I do wish the input for the logo design and color scheme was a bit more openly crowdsourced.

It was very open.  There was a competition thread.  Many entries were submitted.  I have no idea of the mechanism by which the winner was selected.  I think it involved a consultant.  If so, they paid too much.  Boolberry's logo is not all that suitable, but it is an order of magnitude better.  Perhaps one day a reimaging might be considered.  I think it would be premature now.  The present choice has many virtues, in any case.  Even if it is ugly and orange.

I'm sorry, I wasn't too aware of the process when it happened since monero was then barely on my radar when I was just amateurishly mining MROs (when they were still called that). While I respect the move towards identity, at the same time, I'm just slightly put off that it's kind of generic, and that such a decision cannot be easily recalled. But the GUI is beautiful.

Can someone show me why orange and gray were the colors chosen aside from the fact it looks nice (in a generic way), or if there was any deeper symbolism to the logo? not that it matters much but man and his symbols always fascinate me

I read on google, that the color Orange, " combines the energy of red and the happiness of yellow. It is associated with joy, sunshine, and the tropics. Orange represents enthusiasm, fascination, happiness, creativity, determination, attraction, success, and stimulation"

[vokain]

^I do wish the input for the logo design and color scheme was a bit more openly crowdsourced.

It was very open.  There was a competition thread.  Many entries were submitted.  I have no idea of the mechanism by which the winner was selected.  I think it involved a consultant.  If so, they paid too much.  Boolberry's logo is not all that suitable, but it is an order of magnitude better.  Perhaps one day a reimaging might be considered.  I think it would be premature now.  The present choice has many virtues, in any case.  Even if it is ugly and orange.

I'm sorry, I wasn't too aware of the process when it happened since monero was then barely on my radar when I was just amateurishly mining MROs (when they were still called that). While I respect the move towards identity, at the same time, I'm just slightly put off that it's kind of generic, and that such a decision cannot be easily recalled. But the GUI is beautiful.

Can someone show me why orange and gray were the colors chosen aside from the fact it looks nice (in a generic way), or if there was any deeper symbolism to the logo? not that it matters much but man and his symbols always fascinate me

I read on google, that the color Orange, " combines the energy of red and the happiness of yellow. It is associated with joy, sunshine, and the tropics. Orange represents enthusiasm, fascination, happiness, creativity, determination, attraction, success, and stimulation"

Yes—I'm just wondering if there's a less superficial answer.

[saddambitcoin]

Personally I think the logo and color scheme is great! It is bold and striking without being flashy like many other coins. Do you want your money represented by something that looks like it should be on a cereal box?

The Monero logo is understated and tasteful, just as it should be.

[aminorex]

Poloniex is registered with USA FINCen nationally as an MSB in the state of Montana.
If they stay in compliance, and don't get in hot water with the SEC, they should be OK unless the legal landscape changes.

True.  But I think the "ICO" is very clearly in violation of the law.  This creates a liability when they are sued by investors who lose money as a result.

[smooth]

Poloniex is registered with USA FINCen nationally as an MSB in the state of Montana.
If they stay in compliance, and don't get in hot water with the SEC, they should be OK unless the legal landscape changes.

True.  But I think the "ICO" is very clearly in violation of the law.  This creates a liability when they are sued by investors who lose money as a result.

How could anyone lose money on this deal?

[iCEBREAKER]

Poloniex is registered with USA FINCen nationally as an MSB in the state of Montana.
If they stay in compliance, and don't get in hot water with the SEC, they should be OK unless the legal landscape changes.

True.  But I think the "ICO" is very clearly in violation of the law.  This creates a liability when they are sued by investors who lose money as a result.

I hope he's vetting the SuperNet code.

amino, please reach out to busoni and warn him if you haven't already.  I like Polo and would hate to see it go!  Thanks.

[Este Nuno]

Poloniex is registered with USA FINCen nationally as an MSB in the state of Montana.
If they stay in compliance, and don't get in hot water with the SEC, they should be OK unless the legal landscape changes.

True.  But I think the "ICO" is very clearly in violation of the law.  This creates a liability when they are sued by investors who lose money as a result.

Well, it's almost certainly not "clearly" in violation of the law considering it's uncharted territory in general. I'm not qualified to argue the point, so I won't. But I think you would probably agree that it's a complex subject that would end up resulting in at a minimum serious debate between pro-freedom legal minds and those of the government(who might not even consider such offerings an issue).

The closest thing that we've seen thus far is Erik Voorhees settling his case with the SEC after he sold his fully functioning company via shares  on MPEX. The SEC very likely wasn't 100% sure they would be able to win in court considering he sold SatoshiDICE for something like 13 million dollars at the time, yet settled with the SEC for $50,000 if I remember correctly. And the only similarity here is that the shares were bought with cryptocurrency. The offering itself wasn't a cryptocurrency, unlike Qibucks which is.

I don't think you can really compare decentralised cryptocurrency offering to securities, but I might be wrong about that and perhaps the SEC does see it that way. My gut feeling is that they don't, but Poloniex's lawyers will be the final word on this, and I hope things will continue as usual in our community without the ever present gaze of the SEC or any other governmental agency disrupting what's being built.

[Este Nuno]

Poloniex is registered with USA FINCen nationally as an MSB in the state of Montana.
If they stay in compliance, and don't get in hot water with the SEC, they should be OK unless the legal landscape changes.

True.  But I think the "ICO" is very clearly in violation of the law.  This creates a liability when they are sued by investors who lose money as a result.

I hope he's vetting the SuperNet code.

amino, please reach out to busoni and warn him if you haven't already.  I like Polo and would hate to see it go!  Thanks.

Busoni is aware already. (just so everyone knows)

[papa_lazzarou]

Is it the time to buy XCN yet?

What's that supposed to mean? The market cap is ~30,000 60,000 are you expecting it to go lower?

Well, i read that the AMD miner was about to get out. Dunno if that is going to push the price down or not...

[luigi1111]

Poloniex is registered with USA FINCen nationally as an MSB in the state of Montana.
If they stay in compliance, and don't get in hot water with the SEC, they should be OK unless the legal landscape changes.

True.  But I think the "ICO" is very clearly in violation of the law.  This creates a liability when they are sued by investors who lose money as a result.

Well, it's almost certainly not "clearly" in violation of the law considering it's uncharted territory in general. I'm not qualified to argue the point, so I won't. But I think you would probably agree that it's a complex subject that would end up resulting in at a minimum serious debate between pro-freedom legal minds and those of the government(who might not even consider such offerings an issue).

The closest thing that we've seen thus far is Erik Voorhees settling his case with the SEC after he sold his fully functioning company via shares  on MPEX. The SEC very likely wasn't 100% sure they would be able to win in court considering he sold SatoshiDICE for something like 13 million dollars at the time, yet settled with the SEC for $50,000 if I remember correctly. And the only similarity here is that the shares were bought with cryptocurrency. The offering itself wasn't a cryptocurrency, unlike Qibucks which is.

I don't think you can really compare decentralised cryptocurrency offering to securities, but I might be wrong about that and perhaps the SEC does see it that way. My gut feeling is that they don't, but Poloniex's lawyers will be the final word on this, and I hope things will continue as usual in our community without the ever present gaze of the SEC or any other governmental agency disrupting what's being built.

There have been several IPO/ICOs already. QBK is just a recent one. There was LCL (Limecoin Lite), XBC (Bitcoin Plus), MIL (Millennium coin now), as well as those mining shares if they count. People definitely lost money on them (the IPO/ICOs) as well.

[rpietila]

Poloniex is registered with USA FINCen nationally as an MSB in the state of Montana.
If they stay in compliance, and don't get in hot water with the SEC, they should be OK unless the legal landscape changes.

True.  But I think the "ICO" is very clearly in violation of the law.  This creates a liability when they are sued by investors who lose money as a result.

Once it happened to me that I was a large but not majority ~15% owner in a private company. The owners, me included, decided to sell shares in proportion to our holdings, to people who were interested. There are certain rules in the law how the company may carry out new private issues but nothing regulating people selling their own shares. We made a prospectus-of-sorts just to give information to the prospective buyers. When the SEC-equivalent of Finland learned about it, several months after the round was completed with no problems, they decided that the law is extended to cover the sale where the company did play no part, so that the prospectus was found faulty, and as a result the company must offer 100% buyback to anyone who so wishes. As president of the company, it was quite a chore to manage the situation where the stock had lost about 20% of the value, giving the lower morality ones among our shareholders just enough incentive to force a buyback.

The case caused me to lose any respect towards the organization pulling such a trick. If they regard me as scum, so be it both ways.

There is no limit whatsoever these sad clowns will do if we let them. They can make any laws and when they are not convenient, change them, amend them, or just act irrespective of them. The less people resist this fuckery, the easier it is for them to continue. The first point of realization would be to realize that any use of force or threat thereof, towards your freedom, is a crime. On their part, not yours.

ADD: The money we were talking about, in total, was about $100k. The government agencies have the apparent luxury of utterly disregarding any sanity in what they pursue, with their only punishment coming in the next age when righteousness reigns.