rpietila Altcoin Observer

[aminorex]

There is no limit whatsoever these sad clowns will do if we let them. They can make any laws and when they are not convenient, change them, amend them, or just act irrespective of them. The less people resist this fuckery, the easier it is for them to continue. The first point of realization would be to realize that any use of force or threat thereof, towards your freedom, is a crime. On their part, not yours.

I am strongly supportive of Busoni fighting any such lawsuit, and hopefully establishing a precedent which expands liberty to contract, at least in the jurisdiction of the federal district court of Montana.  

I will even voluntarily contribute to his legal fund, should that become needful.

It is not a present danger, so I need take no action until and unless a lawsuit is actually filed.

However, I am not supportive to the level of leaving funds on deposit, if such a case should go to trial.  At that time I would cease trading on Poloniex, with great sadness.

Meanwhile, I consider that my first (Mt.Gox-informed) knee-jerk reaction, to cease trading immediately, is immoderate, and unwarranted.

Even if the ICO is a direct violation of U.S. securities law (as I believe it to be - no lawyer, I, but married to one) it should create no significant threat of any action other than civil enforcement, and that should present no threat to my funds on deposit until some act of an appropriate court.

Please do not consider my intemperate, alarmist language as grounds to cease business with Poloniex.  It is an exemplary business, and deserves our support.  I personally continue to keep a portion of my XMR on deposit there for trading purposes.

[NewLiberty]

Poloniex is registered with USA FINCen nationally as an MSB in the state of Montana.
If they stay in compliance, and don't get in hot water with the SEC, they should be OK unless the legal landscape changes.

True.  But I think the "ICO" is very clearly in violation of the law.  This creates a liability when they are sued by investors who lose money as a result.

Which law specifically do you think is violated?

Lawsuits are civil matters, one could be sued for anything at any time.  This liability exists with all business and is a different matter entirely than lawbreaking.

Some problems that they don't have:
The primary defense for poloniex is as the service provider, they are not an adviser or broker, they provide no financial advice.
For currency exchanges in particular in the State of Montana no Money Transfer license is required.  Not even USForex has one in the state:
http://www.usforex.com/about-us/legal#MT

They seem in compliance, but I have no special information regarding their operations so don't take my word for anything, ask them if you have a concern.

If they start offering Securityies with the BitsharesX stuff, they may need to register under Section 6 of the SEC Exchange act of 1934.

[btc-mike]

...
For currency exchanges in particular in the State of Montana no Money Transfer license is required.  Not even USForex has one in the state:
http://www.usforex.com/about-us/legal#MT
...

That's where it gets interesting (complex). No money transfer license (MTL) would be required for Polo to do that business with Montona residents, BUT, each state/district has its own laws. The previous state in the list requires one.

If a state determines the ICO is "currency exchange," Polo would need the MTL from that state/district to have the state's residents as customers. That is 51 different jurisdictions to check.

[aminorex]

True.  But I think the "ICO" is very clearly in violation of the law.  This creates a liability when they are sued by investors who lose money as a result.

Which law specifically do you think is violated?

The Securities Act of 1933, section 5(a) for one.  There are others which may also pertain, but I am not a domain expert, and prefer to mention only the one which seems relatively straightforward in its application.

[bobabouey2]

True.  But I think the "ICO" is very clearly in violation of the law.  This creates a liability when they are sued by investors who lose money as a result.

Which law specifically do you think is violated?

The Securities Act of 1933, section 5(a) for one.  There are others which may also pertain, but I am not a domain expert, and prefer to mention only the one which seems relatively straightforward in its application.

Yep, the same thing Voorhees got in trouble for with Satoshidice: http://www.sec.gov/News/PressRelease/Detail/PressRelease/1370541972520#.VAekb_ldWSo

[jabo38]

True.  But I think the "ICO" is very clearly in violation of the law.  This creates a liability when they are sued by investors who lose money as a result.

Which law specifically do you think is violated?

The Securities Act of 1933, section 5(a) for one.  There are others which may also pertain, but I am not a domain expert, and prefer to mention only the one which seems relatively straightforward in its application.

I don't have anything to contribute to this topic on either side, just wanted to say that I am really happy to see these concerns expressed and actually real Acts sited.  This kind of discussion is often lacking on the forums.

[kingama]

Is there a list of alts that have been banned in this thread?

[bobabouey2]

Further on the Poloniex "ICO", this link has a good analysis of why Bitcoin has not been considered a security by the SEC, and why a ponzi scheme that invested in bitcoin, like the Bitcoin Savings and Trust ("BST"), is:  http://www.compliancebuilding.com/2013/08/09/is-bitcoin-a-security/

I think the logic is directly applicable to the ICO.  Look at the discussion on the elements of "Common Enterprise" and "Expectation of profits from efforts of others".  I think those are the same ones that could cause problems for the ICO.

[AnonyMint]

The less people resist this fuckery, the easier it is for them to continue.

My preferred strategy is to render their laws impotent, hence for example my pedantic comments about anonymity.

I remember what Jesus is quoted as saying, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's".

I don't prefer the martyr strategy, nor physically fighting the hordes of zombies who willing wear jackboots for the King.

My preferred method for dezombification is for the zombies to see their jackboots are useless and they can be free too. The rest can simply jackboot each other as prescribed in Revelation.

In short, I opt out. I don't have to play in Satan's game (other than my human weaknesses, we can't entirely avoid that little nagger). The Bible tells us in John (the Baptist), "if ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you".

[georgehosterguy]

The less people resist this fuckery, the easier it is for them to continue.

My preferred strategy is to render their laws impotent, hence for example my pedantic comments about anonymity.

I remember what Jesus is quoted as saying, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's".

I don't prefer the martyr strategy, nor physically fighting the hordes of zombies who willing wear jackboots for the King.

My preferred method for dezombification is for the zombies to see their jackboots are useless and they can be free too. The rest can simply jackboot each other as prescribed in Revelation.

In short, I opt out. I don't have to play in Satan's game. The Bible tells us in John (the Baptist), "if ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you".

I'm no expert but wasn't he saying in the first verse to give Ceaser whatever he wanted when it comes to money control and in the second ... didn't that have to do with moral law and crap ... not crypto/money control???

[JorgeStolfi]

I remember what Jesus is quoted as saying, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's".

I'm no expert but wasn't he saying in the first verse to give Ceaser whatever he wanted when it comes to money control and in the second ... didn't that have to do with morals and crap ... not crypto???

Actually the first half was about paying the taxes to the Romans.

I also seem to remember something about a rope passing through the eye of a needle...

[georgehosterguy]

I remember what Jesus is quoted as saying, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's".

I'm no expert but wasn't he saying in the first verse to give Ceaser whatever he wanted when it comes to money control and in the second ... didn't that have to do with morals and crap ... not crypto???

Actually the first half was about paying the taxes to the Romans.

I also seem to remember something about a rope passing through the eye of a needle...

I think it was a camel ...

[canth]

The less people resist this fuckery, the easier it is for them to continue.

My preferred strategy is to render their laws impotent, hence for example my pedantic comments about anonymity.

I remember what Jesus is quoted as saying, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's".

I don't prefer the martyr strategy, nor physically fighting the hordes of zombies who willing wear jackboots for the King.

My preferred method for dezombification is for the zombies to see their jackboots are useless and they can be free too. The rest can simply jackboot each other as prescribed in Revelation.

In short, I opt out. I don't have to play in Satan's game. The Bible tells us in John (the Baptist), "if ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you".

Funny, you're quoting from a ~ 2000 year old book about the world's most famous zombie about how you prefer to avoid fighting zombies.

How exactly are you planning on playing the game? It seems to me that if you're planning to report XMR transactions to your tax authority, that you are already an unlikely user - definitely an outside case. What feature set are you looking for where your transactions are anonymous, private and yet easily accepted by the taxman?

[georgehosterguy]

The less people resist this fuckery, the easier it is for them to continue.

My preferred strategy is to render their laws impotent, hence for example my pedantic comments about anonymity.

I remember what Jesus is quoted as saying, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's".

I don't prefer the martyr strategy, nor physically fighting the hordes of zombies who willing wear jackboots for the King.

My preferred method for dezombification is for the zombies to see their jackboots are useless and they can be free too. The rest can simply jackboot each other as prescribed in Revelation.

In short, I opt out. I don't have to play in Satan's game. The Bible tells us in John (the Baptist), "if ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you".

Funny, you're quoting from a ~ 2000 year old book about the world's most famous zombie about how you prefer to avoid fighting zombies.

How exactly are you planning on playing the game? It seems to me that if you're planning to report XMR transactions to your tax authority, that you are already an unlikely user - definitely an outside case. What feature set are you looking for where your transactions are anonymous, private and yet easily accepted by the taxman?

Not sure I'd describe him as a zombie.  Jesus was always pissing off the religious crowd of his day.  Crazy maybe, zombie not quite applicable.

That is now assumed to be a translation error, the original words for 'rope' and 'camel' (in Aramaic?  Greek?) being very similar.

Interesting

[JorgeStolfi]

I remember what Jesus is quoted as saying, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's".

I'm no expert but wasn't he saying in the first verse to give Ceaser whatever he wanted when it comes to money control and in the second ... didn't that have to do with morals and crap ... not crypto???

Actually the first half was about paying the taxes to the Romans.

I also seem to remember something about a rope passing through the eye of a needle...

I think it was a camel ...

That is now assumed to be a translation error, the original words for 'rope' and 'camel' (in Aramaic?  Greek?) being very similar.

[canth]

The less people resist this fuckery, the easier it is for them to continue.

My preferred strategy is to render their laws impotent, hence for example my pedantic comments about anonymity.

I remember what Jesus is quoted as saying, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's".

I don't prefer the martyr strategy, nor physically fighting the hordes of zombies who willing wear jackboots for the King.

My preferred method for dezombification is for the zombies to see their jackboots are useless and they can be free too. The rest can simply jackboot each other as prescribed in Revelation.

In short, I opt out. I don't have to play in Satan's game. The Bible tells us in John (the Baptist), "if ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you".

Funny, you're quoting from a ~ 2000 year old book about the world's most famous zombie about how you prefer to avoid fighting zombies.

How exactly are you planning on playing the game? It seems to me that if you're planning to report XMR transactions to your tax authority, that you are already an unlikely user - definitely an outside case. What feature set are you looking for where your transactions are anonymous, private and yet easily accepted by the taxman?

Not sure I'd describe him as a zombie.  Jesus was always pissing off the religious crowd of his day.  Crazy maybe, zombie not quite applicable.

If someone died, was buried and came back to life after 3 days, what would you call that today? http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/zombie-jesus

I get -10 pts for continuing this clearly offtopic thread.

[AnonyMint]

If I remember correctly the parable, Jesus was asked if God's followers should pay taxes (tribute) to the State (King) and he asked for a coin. He looked at the coin and said, "see whose image is on that coin". He said pay to Caesar what is his and to God what is his. So the point is if you are going to use the King's money, than you pay his taxes.

My point about the anonymity is precisely that sometimes you will need to convert to fiat and in those exceptional times, you need to be legal.

Of course I support not converting to fiat as much as possible and not reporting a damn thing[1] when all your txs stay within the anonymous decentralized currency system.

Jesus's point is thus spot on apropos. The wisdom in the Bible is strikingly relevant.

[1] Disclaimer: I am not advising any illegal activity. I am not a professional adviser. Please consult with an appropriate adviser in your jurisdiction.

[btc-mike]

The less people resist this fuckery, the easier it is for them to continue.

My preferred strategy is to render their laws impotent, hence for example my pedantic comments about anonymity.

I remember what Jesus is quoted as saying, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's".

I don't prefer the martyr strategy, nor physically fighting the hordes of zombies who willing wear jackboots for the King.

My preferred method for dezombification is for the zombies to see their jackboots are useless and they can be free too. The rest can simply jackboot each other as prescribed in Revelation.

In short, I opt out. I don't have to play in Satan's game (other than my human weaknesses, we can't entirely avoid that little bastard). The Bible tells us in John (the Baptist), "if ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you".

Ay naku! Is that your way of saying you moved to the Philippines?

[AnonyMint]

"if ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you".

Ay naku! Is that your way of saying you moved to the Philippines?

.

[SlipperySlope]

I find the Christian Bible enlightening by way of analogy. I hope that altcoins are not the False Gods ...

Deuteronomy 13

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known,  gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other),  do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them.  You must certainly put them to death.

Emphasis mine. Lots of good stuff in the Bible.