Scientific proof that God exists?

[bl4kjaguar]

First, we must all recognize that Scientific explanations do not rule out explanations at other levels.

Hi username18333, I suggest you take a close look at this link, because your arguments are not making sense to me...

Since there can be no evidence for materialism, only lack of evidence for alternatives, belief in materialism is based on faith not reason. But there is very good evidence for the afterlife and ESP that falsify materialism.

Materialists often make a logical mistake by saying people believe in religion and spirituality because they provide comfort. This is supposed to be a convincing argument that those beliefs are false. However providing comfort doesn't make a belief false. You have to determine truth or falsity based on evidence. Materialism can be shown to be false by empirical evidence and logical arguments.

I have supplied the evidence for rebirth, but your reasons for doubting survival do not address the salient points in Eisenbeiss; your explanation is far from simple since it involves both elaborate fraud and super-psi.

5)  The difference it makes is that valid =/= sound.  Unfortunately, your argument isn't even valid because we already know with absolute confidence that Intelligent Design/God falls outside the scope of empiricism, and therefore you will never have empirical proof.  

Hey 'joint', you said that you would be happy to read evidence, so why not read Hatonn and see if there is anything which is not-true; as for me, I am still waiting for someone (anyone) to adequately address the observations presented in the Eisenbeiss case. A rational person can see that this case is strong evidence for the survival hypothesis, and that explanations grounded in fraud/deception are not supported by any evidence. As you can see, there is very strong evidence in favor of the afterlife, and belief in the afterlife is scientific.

To prove that all atheists are mistaken, it is enough that I point to the observations which strongly support the survival hypothesis. Any atheist (humanist) can provide adequate reasons to reject the evidence, but none have done so. Similarly, I can refute materialism by pointing to the latest knowledge in molecular biology which asserts that "life is more than just complicated chemistry".

"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms."--J.B.S. Haldane

So please read Journal 36 and also read "Marriage of Sense & Soul", where you will find these quotes:

"you will find, in this adventure, that the scientific method will never be left behind in the search for an ultimate ground"

"from the in-sides of an astonishment that has no boundaries, an answer begins to suggest itself, and whisper to us lightly. If we listen very carefully, from within this infinite wonder, perhaps we can hear the gentle promise that, in the very heart of the Kosmos itself, both science and religion will be there to welcome us home."

"what is required is not a new monological science or a new dialogical interpretation, but a genuine method for directly opening to translogical contemplation, and no 'new scientific paradigm' whatsoever has been able to make that offer"

A good review of this book (with a link to the author's reply): http://www.integralworld.net/sense_fv.html

And a choice quote:

"science is more a certain attitude of experimentation, honesty, and collaborative inquiry, and it grounds its knowledge, wherever it can, in evidence."

Simply stated: to make a scientific discovery, one first has to (1) follow some instruction, then (2) do an observation, and (3) compare this to those of others, who have also followed the first two steps.

In E.O. Wilson's "Concilience" (pg 126-127), you will find this quote: "Our deepest nature is unbounded, pure awareness. Neither the material nor the consciousness aspects of life are primary, as both continuously arise from the underlying Meta-universe. The continuing existence of the universe around us depends upon the unbroken generative power of the meta-universe (Whose Essence Is Pure Awareness)"--this quote is talking about GOD, the ONE POWER, ONE SPIRIT, ONE BEING, ONE LIGHT, etc.

Wilson also says "It is important to note that consciousness is always connected with an object of knowing."

I note that Kant made a similar conclusion many years ago:

The field of philosophy... can be reduced to the following questions: What can I know? What ought I to do? What may I hope? What is the human being? Metaphysics answers the first question, morals the second, religion the third, and anthropology the fourth. Fundamentally, however, we could reckon all of this as anthropology.

These authors demonstrate the kind of collaborative inquiry that builds knowledge.

Also, you can read the conversation between Einstein and Tagore, and also watch "Deepak Chopra Essential DVD Collection" for related ideas.

Yes, I do think that I am making progress in explaining my rational faith; for example, I have provided a reference to the "content-source problem", which will allow one to scientifically evaluate any inspired text. If my beliefs are not sound, I would naturally want you to supply evidence in that regard.

Also, I have done more reading and found that atheism is logically absurd:

"Atheism is incompatible with science because a brain that was produced by natural selection would have evolved to enhance survival not apprehend truth and it would not be a reliable tool for understanding anything."

"Thought is replaced by electro-chemical neural events. Two such events cannot confront each other in rational discourse. They are neither right nor wrong. The simply happen ... The very assertions of the reductionist himself are nothing but blips in the neural network of his brain. The world of rational discourse dissolves into the absurd chatter of firing synapses. Quite frankly, that cannot be right and none of us believes it to be so. "

"A third way materialism undermines science is that it makes a priori metaphysical assumptions in favor of naturalism that artificially limit the scope of science."

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[username18333]

3) Atheism is incompatible with science because a brain that was produced by natural selection would have evolved to enhance survival not apprehend truth and it would not be a reliable tool for understanding anything.

[Epicurus] regarded the unacknowledged fear of death and punishment as the primary cause of anxiety among human beings, and anxiety in turn as the source of extreme and irrational desires.

Hyperreality is the “abridged” physicality utilized by the brain in such a way as to enhance the human animal’s capacity to serve the Anunnaki.

[Videlicet]

13 planes, though the 13th is what most of us would call "death"; they exist as planes of the mind structured in consciousness - to fill the space in consciousness between physical and spirit, they are termed Planes of the Mind: Word, Association, Reflection, Logic, Spontaneity, Result, Fantasy, Correspondence, Depth, Integration, Empathy, Universal, Death...

Thank You,
Viz.

You can't prove between science and religion any more than you can tell someone to prove they don't exist, it won't happen not from the indent in reality; but for the desire of such entity to see only that which it wants to see.

[bl4kjaguar]

If any one reads the Phoenix Journals, then invariably s/he will choose to conclude that the Journals are the WORD. Then, one will understand that GOD IS. MAN PLACES LIMITATIONS--GOD HAS NONE! Here are some highly relevant quotes:

WHETHER LONG OR SHORT--
THE ROAD MATTERS NOT IF THE FIRST STEP
IS NEVER TAKEN!

The Author

WELL, WHO AND WHAT IS A "HATONN"?
I am Gyeorgos (Yeorgos, George) Ceres Hatonn. Commander, United Federation Fleet, Inter-Galactic Federation Command, Status: Admiral of the ship, PHOENIX--in the higher command and within the service of that which can be recognized on Earth (Shan) place as the "Hosts", now present in your Earth sector to set records to straight and correct in preparation for that which you call a "Second Coming" of "God". To recognize the God/Christ being you must first recognize the Earth-bound enemy called the Anti-Christ and that particular tribe which is in attempt to gain total control of all nations of the Shan globe.

I come in dimensional form easily recognized and understood by you of third dimensional compression and form--I serve as a Commander from Constellation Pleiades having taken more compressed stature than that of ATON of my higher recognition. I care not that which OTHERS have told you, nor NEW AGE BLATHERINGS, I am exactly who I say that I AM!

WHO MIGHT YOU BE?

Subject Matter

WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE--IF I BRING OF HOW IT IS? I have also said since onset of these writings that they are that which will be RECORDED AS THE HISTORICAL TRUTH OF THIS VERY AGE OF MANKIND AND EITHER WHAT WENT WRONG--OR THE RECORDS OF THE HISTORICAL RECLAMATION OF A PLANET!

I TREAT YOU LIKE THE WONDROUS, THINKING, REASONING, FREE-WILLED CREATIONS WORTHY OF YOUR LABEL OF "MAN", THE SON OF GOD--WITH GOD, IN HUMAN EXPERIENCE--about to lose your lives!

Not a Cult

I am in Command of the HOSTS (for lack of better definition) of the "good guys" sent from the Civilization of the Universe councils, the Federation, if you will. I am certainly not NEW AGE--I have told you before and I will repeat: The NEW AGE MOVEMENT "RELIGION" AND THE "RELIGION" WHICH IS BEING FOISTED OFF ON YOUR PLANET AS A ONE WORLD RELIGION--WILL DESTROY YOU!

Hatonn is a "space brother"

You ask WHY do I not appear and “make it right”? Because only the very minute numbers of your fragments would accept it. Do “I” claim perfection in my own role in this journey? NO--for I experience as your elder brother and my mission must share in the very things of earth expression. AM I PERFECT? I AM, and therefore what more is there to be? Am I a thought? A reality? A form? A vision? I am all of those things for I AM!

Being Responsible

YOU do not yet understand status or representation and most especially YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND GOD! You must attend those decisions yourselves.

I have only compassion for ones who denounce and have yet to even experience the information coming from this resource!

Blindness is no excuse if the Truth be available. READ ALL CHELAS, AND YOU DECIDE. DO NOT PETITION AND CRY “CONFUSION” FOR IF YOU HAVE STUDIED INFORMATION AS WE HAVE PRESENTED IT--THE ANSWERS ARE ALL FULLY PLACED BEFORE YOU.

Would you feel it logical that God would send you the cyanide laced mush of “waiting” and inaction while you magically purify and/or cleanse or perish--or, might you suppose that GOD would attend His children and their needs to the best of the ability present in the physical experience? Since you have nothing save to gain greatly by preparations--what in the world is the matter with you? Might it be wiser to act now and diddle with my location at a time when you are more likely to survive long enough to consider alternatives? WHICH TEACHER, GUIDE OR SERVANT WOULD YOU RATHER HAVE, A DO NOTHING, TELL NOTHING AND SUBSERVIENT DOODLER TO A COMPUTER OR A HOST OF GOD SENT FORTH TO HELP YOU THROUGH THIS NIGHTMARE AND INTO AWAKENING TO THE SWEET AND BEAUTEOUS GLORY OF THE UNIVERSE? WHO DID YOU EXPECT? HOW DID YOU EXPECT IT TO HAPPEN? THINK!! I have nothing to gain and my people gain only increased sleeplessness and hardship by our connection. You take it or leave it for force is not a part of GOD in any form. If you are “confused” then you are “uninformed” and that be YOUR FAULT, NOT OURS!

3) Atheism is incompatible with science because a brain that was produced by natural selection would have evolved to enhance survival not apprehend truth and it would not be a reliable tool for understanding anything.

[Epicurus] regarded the unacknowledged fear of death and punishment as the primary cause of anxiety among human beings, and anxiety in turn as the source of extreme and irrational desires.

Hyperreality is the “abridged” physicality utilized by the brain in such a way as to enhance the human animal’s capacity to serve the Anunnaki.

In the same tone as given to me, sir--get your intelligence out of your assets and come into the professional maturity of the task at hand.

I represent the One LIGHT, the One Source, that One who was honored as the "sun" being, meaning LIFE SOURCE and, in Egypt at the time of reinstitution of the ONE GOD CONCEPT (Creator of Life Capability) was known and recognized as Ra or Aton. What there is that is so difficult to understand eludes me--you seem to be very willing to accept horrible little monsters, grey humanoids, lizards and serpent-people!! Or, is the GAME to discount the very promise of GOD ETERNAL--TO BRING YOU THE TRUTH IN WORD AND SEND MESSENGERS AT YOUR TIME OF EVOLVEMENT AND POSSIBLE DESTRUCTION IN SOME KIND OF PLANNED ARMAGEDDON?? Or, did you think God would come and do these things through Jim Bakker or Bill Clinton? People, I DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU BELIEVE--MY JOB IS TO BRING THIS WORD TO THIS PLACE AND YOU CAN DENY IT, ACCEPT IT, HOPE IT RIGHT, WRONG OR FOLLOW THE PIPER--THAT IS YOUR BUSINESS, YOUR SOUL AND YOUR CHOICE! DOES EVERYBODY UNDERSTAND ME? I DO NOT TREAD ON YOUR BUSINESS--AND I EXPECT THE POWERS THAT CONTROL YOU TO MEET THEIR AGREEMENTS WITH ME! WHAT THEY DO WITH THEIR OWN SOULS, IF THERE ARE ANY PRESENT, AND WHAT YOU ONES DECIDE TO DO WITH YOUR EXPERIENCE AND EXPRESSION--IS UP TO YOU. I AM GOING TO, IF YOU GET TOO ROUGH, GOOD BUDDIES, TAKE GOD'S PEOPLE OFF THE PLACE
--AND IT IS NOT GOING TO BE A BLUE BEAM RAPTURE OR A BAPTIST RAPTURE.

I offer this material humbly, and hope that you have the patience (or skills) to read through the truth about man and god.
I know that it is difficult to discuss knowledge outside of an empirical context, but the Phoenix Journals deserve discussion; I personally have found it highly valuable to use the content-source problem as a framework for evaluating the truth of the Journals; check out these papers:
THE CONTENT-SOURCE PROBLEM IN MODERN MEDIUMSHIP RESEARCH
THE PROBLEM OF SETH'S ORIGIN

May you have grown in KNOWING in that you can feel and see the beat of the marching feet of GOD’s troops--in the reality of that which IS and beyond and into that which WILL BE! The fate of your nation, all nations, and your planet depends upon that which YOU know and come to understand--and within the actions in intelligent wisdom.

There is only ONE “REALITY” unto which to awaken and that is unto LIGHTED GOD OF CREATION--for you are experiencing in expression manifest--that thought of God which is actually THE DREAM. When you truly awaken unto reality it will be beyond mere measures to change of your neighbor or your government or even the adversary--for you will find that ALL THAT CAN AND WILL BE CHANGED AND AWAKENED IN SELF!

So, will all mankind be awakened? You have no way to know that which is a souled being from that which is not--so why effort to sort--GOD SHALL DO THE SORTING--you must do the discerning within the experience so that ALL may receive and then there shall be no problem for you, will there? If, however, YOU do not believe or serve in total presentation--how can you expect “another” to receive? If you do not hold in thine depth of reality--truth of your beingness--you shall be tossed and turned upon the waves of doubt until you “downfall” for only physical expression is based upon doubts and fears of the Reality of GOD CREATOR!

Username18333, Please also consider the reference and points of John Lennox as to the absurdity of atheism; it is hard to make sense of the world under the materialist hypothesis.

Nagel insists that we know some things to exist even if materialism omits or ignores or is oblivious to them . . . It doesn’t explain, for example, why the world exists at all, or how life arose from nonlife. Closer to home, it doesn’t plausibly explain the fundamental beliefs we rely on as we go about our everyday business: the truth of our subjective experience, our ability to reason, our capacity to recognize that some acts are virtuous and others aren’t. These failures, Nagel says, aren’t just temporary gaps in our knowledge, waiting to be filled in by new discoveries in science. On its own terms, materialism cannot account for brute facts. Brute facts are irreducible, and materialism, which operates by breaking things down to their physical components, stands useless before them. “There is little or no possibility,” he writes, “that these facts depend on nothing but the laws of physics.”

These things are known to be real by sheer common sense; the fact that materialism rejects them as the effects of solely physical processes seriously undercuts the ideology’s ability to make sense of the world.

I don’t think the brain came in the Darwinian manner. In fact, it is disprovable. Simple mechanism can’t yield the brain. I think the basic elements of the universe are simple. Life force is a primitive element of the universe and it obeys certain laws of action. These laws are not simple, and they are not mechanical.

I certainly hope that you and others who are reading will take the responsibility to check out these references for yourselves, then you can decide if that truth is "VALID".

Readers and listeners--this is YOUR story entwined with mine only in the higher level of soul journey unto Source. I, as teacher/guide, act as conduit for knowledge and that knowledge MUST come in a manner which is acceptable in perception of that which IS. Prophets tell of “that which shall come to pass”--mine is more the bringing of understanding of that which “has passed” and a display of those things which have borne you “up” or “pulled you down”. These are things unneeding of “faith” in the seen or the unseen--but writings of truth that your perception can handle that which IS and make your directions fitting for journey through THAT knowledge. COULD I be a prophet--indeed and so I AM; however, a prophet but speaks of that which will come and, lest you change your manifested expression--that which will come has already been written for this “play”. Mine, then, is to allow you to see that which is unfolding in a way that it MUST be seen in Truth--not illusion of “wishes”. Fantasies are those thoughts of imaginings upon which unreality is based--dreaming in perspective unto that which can be in experience is the thought through which NEW directions and manifestation expression can be achieved--indeed, MUST BE ACHIEVED. If man focuses his creative thoughts in oneness of “thought unity” the form creates itself. I am your co-experiencer--but you are the physical aspect, at this time of travel, which must function as the “doers” for man cannot understand reality otherwise. If ye be honest and true in your INTENT IN DIRECTION AND SERVICE, you wish it not otherwise for you have come TO DO IT. I am that which guides and responds and will bring you safely into port.

In most instances if your brother who does see and we who speak out, do not point it out unto you, it is missed and the gallows are sprung in your unknowing and misery. Indeed, chelas, if ALL were PERFECTION--there would be no need for the experience. Ponder it.

If a man REFUSES intentionally to recognize his Source and the Laws as absolute (not voted-in to suit physical expression and luxurious comfort and physical senses), then that becomes between that individual and GOD and is not your business. You do not judge--but neither do you continue a wrong-way journey--IF INDEED YOU ARE SEEKING HIGHER UNDERSTANDING, FREEDOM, AND GOD. FURTHER, ALL THINGS IN ANY PHYSICAL EXPERIENCE MUST BE HANDLED FOR THE BEST AND HIGHEST GOOD OF THAT WHICH REPRESENTS THE HIGHEST CAUSE. BECAUSE OF THE FREE-WILL STATUS OF “MAN”, CHANGES MUST BE MADE, SOMETIMES INSTANTLY, IN THE FOCUS ON THE GOAL OF HIGHEST CAUSE TOWARD TRUTH, LOVE, FREEDOM AND GOD.

[username18333]

These things are known to be real by sheer common sense; the fact that materialism rejects them as the effects of solely physical processes seriously undercuts the ideology’s ability to make sense of the world.

There was a time when the newspapers said that only twelve men understood the theory of relativity. I do not believe there ever was such a time. There might have been a time when only one man did, because he was the only guy who caught on, before he wrote his paper. But after people read the paper, a lot of people understood the theory of relativity in some way or other, certainly more than twelve. On the other hand, I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics.

[bl4kjaguar]

Sir,
We are all human here; there is no need to be abstract, especially when I can see that your philosophy is absurd. Quantum Mechanics understanding is not so important as understanding the nature of your personal responsibility, but God gives you all truth and free will so that you can come to understanding with regards to any subject.

If you are using the premise that no one understands quantum mechanics to assert a conclusion bearing on human knowledge, then I am afraid that your argument is lost on me. Materialism is disprovable on philosophical grounds; you can see that the materialism of Dennett, which you promote, is refuted by Nagel's common sense; kindly reference the Kurt Gödel quote and the article about Nagel, preferably in full from the source.

As for the mind:
If you propose "telepathy", then your explanation falls under the label "super-psi"; this "super-psi" hypothesis is discussed in the literature behind the AECES top 40 cases and elsewhere in parapsychology.

Actually, the "Quantum Parapsychology" page on FB helps one to understand QM, so does this link (and others), and so too with the best-tested theory of consciousness in science (Quantum Consciousness, which denies the doctrine of ones such as Dawkins as per my earlier references Chopra and Nagel), and there are also many references to accurate knowledge in Phoenix Journals; therefore, it would seem like a good understanding is to be had by reading these sources:

Let us not damage ourselves because of perceived ridicule and stupidity of this limited civilization.
Ask any blind person if it would not make living far more pleasant and easy to be sighted.
I do not expect to have you understand what I am talking about if you are not a scientist and, if you
cannot believe except through the brain of a scientist--you are going to be locked into the limitations
of your anti-civilization consciousness. Sounds big and a bit "far-out"? Yes, but it is not further than
between your eyes, and perception is totally a thing between your ears called MIND.

You must come to understand the true MEANING of "existence". What is existence? Well, readers,
when you understand the true and REAL meaning of "existence" you have the "everything".

[cryptodevil]

If any one reads the Phoenix Journals, then invariably s/he will choose to conclude that the Journals are the WORD. Then, one will understand that GOD IS. MAN PLACES LIMITATIONS--GOD HAS NONE! Here are some highly relevant quotes:

http://www.phoenixsourcedistributors.com/loonytunesunlimited

Oh wow, I hadn't even realised quite how unhinged you truly are Jag! So some delusional lunatic posts about how he is an inter-dimensional being and you, what, just believe him?

Is that how it works or are you claiming there's actual evidence that he is an inter-dimensional galactic commander?

[Astargath]

Definitive proof against Bible God: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuYxGtuBSgk&feature=youtu.be

[BADecker]

Definitive proof against Bible God: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuYxGtuBSgk&feature=youtu.be

Definite proof that God exists.   

[Pentax]

I say so.

Definitive proof ^^^^^ that neither side can 'prove' anything.

[BADecker]

I say so.

Definitive proof ^^^^^ that neither side can 'prove' anything.

Something as complex (the doctors can't fix the kid, yet he exists) and wonderful (the kid is feeling so much joy in life that he moves ahead rather than pining away, looking for suicide) as life, shows that the design was intelligently done. Since the design is way beyond man's understanding (doctors can't cure the kid; people still live only for a max of a little over 100 years), this shows the existence of God, by the definition of the word "God."

The fact that the kid and others (all of us) have problems in life shows that there is intelligent design that is way ahead of man, that is not God, that causes destruction. We call this malevolence the devil. The fact that the kid (and most of us) is overcoming the wicked work of the devil, shows that God is alive in us and is more powerful than the devil.

We live only a relatively short life. God is not leaving us here without salvation from problems and pain. God is offering us through the words of the Bible, a means for salvation.

When this life is done for us, it is absolutely done for us. Even if someone thinks there is reincarnation, no reincarnated being has ever returned in a way that is the same as what it was when it left this life. Therefore we don't really know that there is reincarnation.

God tells us in the Bible that when this life is done, it is done. There will come a time that God will destroy this whole universe because of the corruption that the devil placed into it. But, because of the love God has for us, He has designed a new universe where no corruption will be able to enter. He invites us to join Him in that new universe by accepting the work of salvation that Jesus, God's Son, did for us on the cross.

Accept or reject. Your choice. Life or death. Your choice. If you choose death, because of how deeply we are imbedded in this universe (way beyond the simple understandings of man), your real death (soul death; identity death) will be absolutely the exact opposite of fun. And it won't be God's fault, because He is offering you salvation as explained in the Bible.

Proof for God? See https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg10718395#msg10718395.

[Pentax]

I say so.

Definitive proof ^^^^^ that neither side can 'prove' anything.

Something as complex (the doctors can't fix the kid, yet he exists) and wonderful (the kid is feeling so much joy in life that he moves ahead rather than pining away, looking for suicide) as life, shows that the design was intelligently done. Since the design is way beyond man's understanding (doctors can't cure the kid; people still live only for a max of a little over 100 years), this shows the existence of God, by the definition of the word "God."

The fact that the kid and others (all of us) have problems in life shows that there is intelligent design that is way ahead of man, that is not God, that causes destruction. We call this malevolence the devil. The fact that the kid (and most of us) is overcoming the wicked work of the devil, shows that God is alive in us and is more powerful than the devil.

We live only a relatively short life. God is not leaving us here without salvation from problems and pain. God is offering us through the words of the Bible, a means for salvation.

When this life is done for us, it is absolutely done for us. Even if someone thinks there is reincarnation, no reincarnated being has ever returned in a way that is the same as what it was when it left this life. Therefore we don't really know that there is reincarnation.

God tells us in the Bible that when this life is done, it is done. There will come a time that God will destroy this whole universe because of the corruption that the devil placed into it. But, because of the love God has for us, He has designed a new universe where no corruption will be able to enter. He invites us to join Him in that new universe by accepting the work of salvation that Jesus, God's Son, did for us on the cross.

Accept or reject. Your choice. Life or death. Your choice. If you choose death, because of how deeply we are imbedded in this universe (way beyond the simple understandings of man), your real death (soul death; identity death) will be absolutely the exact opposite of fun. And it won't be God's fault, because He is offering you salvation as explained in the Bible.

Proof for God? See https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg10718395#msg10718395.

All that is interesting.  But does not provide 'proof'.

If there is such a proof, it is not in the bible, it is not in commonly held beliefs, it is in the commonality of experience described by those that claim to have been 'touched' or 'born again' or whathaveyou.

That has gone on since time began and continues to this day.  No question, no doubt.  But is that even 'proof'?  not solid, irrefutable proof, no.

[BADecker]

I say so.

Definitive proof ^^^^^ that neither side can 'prove' anything.

Something as complex (the doctors can't fix the kid, yet he exists) and wonderful (the kid is feeling so much joy in life that he moves ahead rather than pining away, looking for suicide) as life, shows that the design was intelligently done. Since the design is way beyond man's understanding (doctors can't cure the kid; people still live only for a max of a little over 100 years), this shows the existence of God, by the definition of the word "God."

The fact that the kid and others (all of us) have problems in life shows that there is intelligent design that is way ahead of man, that is not God, that causes destruction. We call this malevolence the devil. The fact that the kid (and most of us) is overcoming the wicked work of the devil, shows that God is alive in us and is more powerful than the devil.

We live only a relatively short life. God is not leaving us here without salvation from problems and pain. God is offering us through the words of the Bible, a means for salvation.

When this life is done for us, it is absolutely done for us. Even if someone thinks there is reincarnation, no reincarnated being has ever returned in a way that is the same as what it was when it left this life. Therefore we don't really know that there is reincarnation.

God tells us in the Bible that when this life is done, it is done. There will come a time that God will destroy this whole universe because of the corruption that the devil placed into it. But, because of the love God has for us, He has designed a new universe where no corruption will be able to enter. He invites us to join Him in that new universe by accepting the work of salvation that Jesus, God's Son, did for us on the cross.

Accept or reject. Your choice. Life or death. Your choice. If you choose death, because of how deeply we are imbedded in this universe (way beyond the simple understandings of man), your real death (soul death; identity death) will be absolutely the exact opposite of fun. And it won't be God's fault, because He is offering you salvation as explained in the Bible.

Proof for God? See https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg10718395#msg10718395.

All that is interesting.  But does not provide 'proof'.

If there is such a proof, it is not in the bible, it is not in commonly held beliefs, it is in the commonality of experience described by those that claim to have been 'touched' or 'born again' or whathaveyou.

That has gone on since time began and continues to this day.  No question, no doubt.  But is that even 'proof'?  not solid, irrefutable proof, no.

There are many others who accept it as proof. Your choice for you.

The "proof" is not complete in every way. We probably couldn't understand the proof if we saw it all, it is that deep and complex. Because of this, most of the religions talk about having faith. Bible explains that faith is the most important thing for joining God in the new universe.

What is faith? Faith is seeing that God exists (not blind faith), and accepting that He speaks the truth, trusting that He is not lying.

Stuff exists. There is NOTHING that explains where things come from that has more provable foundation than the idea of God. Certainly, when you look at the FACTS in scientific papers, they don't explain FACTUALLY any method for the existence of stuff. They have lots of THEORIES, but little fact. God is the best explanation that overcomes any other that we have so far.

[Pentax]

I say so.

Definitive proof ^^^^^ that neither side can 'prove' anything.

Something as complex (the doctors can't fix the kid, yet he exists) and wonderful (the kid is feeling so much joy in life that he moves ahead rather than pining away, looking for suicide) as life, shows that the design was intelligently done. Since the design is way beyond man's understanding (doctors can't cure the kid; people still live only for a max of a little over 100 years), this shows the existence of God, by the definition of the word "God."

The fact that the kid and others (all of us) have problems in life shows that there is intelligent design that is way ahead of man, that is not God, that causes destruction. We call this malevolence the devil. The fact that the kid (and most of us) is overcoming the wicked work of the devil, shows that God is alive in us and is more powerful than the devil.

We live only a relatively short life. God is not leaving us here without salvation from problems and pain. God is offering us through the words of the Bible, a means for salvation.

When this life is done for us, it is absolutely done for us. Even if someone thinks there is reincarnation, no reincarnated being has ever returned in a way that is the same as what it was when it left this life. Therefore we don't really know that there is reincarnation.

God tells us in the Bible that when this life is done, it is done. There will come a time that God will destroy this whole universe because of the corruption that the devil placed into it. But, because of the love God has for us, He has designed a new universe where no corruption will be able to enter. He invites us to join Him in that new universe by accepting the work of salvation that Jesus, God's Son, did for us on the cross.

Accept or reject. Your choice. Life or death. Your choice. If you choose death, because of how deeply we are imbedded in this universe (way beyond the simple understandings of man), your real death (soul death; identity death) will be absolutely the exact opposite of fun. And it won't be God's fault, because He is offering you salvation as explained in the Bible.

Proof for God? See https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg10718395#msg10718395.

All that is interesting.  But does not provide 'proof'.

If there is such a proof, it is not in the bible, it is not in commonly held beliefs, it is in the commonality of experience described by those that claim to have been 'touched' or 'born again' or whathaveyou.

That has gone on since time began and continues to this day.  No question, no doubt.  But is that even 'proof'?  not solid, irrefutable proof, no.

There are many others who accept it as proof. Your choice for you.

The "proof" is not complete in every way. We probably couldn't understand the proof if we saw it all, it is that deep and complex. Because of this, most of the religions talk about having faith. Bible explains that faith is the most important thing for joining God in the new universe.

What is faith? Faith is seeing that God exists (not blind faith), and accepting that He speaks the truth, trusting that He is not lying.

Stuff exists. There is NOTHING that explains where things come from that has more provable foundation than the idea of God. Certainly, when you look at the FACTS in scientific papers, they don't explain FACTUALLY any method for the existence of stuff. They have lots of THEORIES, but little fact. God is the best explanation that overcomes any other that we have so far.

Maybe maybe not in terms of being able to 'understand' proof.

In terms of the existence of matter, it is difficult to explain away the appearance of matter from nothing, although taking that a step further then, how it is possible to explain the existence of a God that created it.  Where did it come from then?

What I know is that mankind knows precious little about the universe and thinks he has a lot of it figured out.  We have a long way to go before we can posit much of anything.  Like critters crawling out of the oceans on questions such as these.

[BADecker]

I say so.

Definitive proof ^^^^^ that neither side can 'prove' anything.

Something as complex (the doctors can't fix the kid, yet he exists) and wonderful (the kid is feeling so much joy in life that he moves ahead rather than pining away, looking for suicide) as life, shows that the design was intelligently done. Since the design is way beyond man's understanding (doctors can't cure the kid; people still live only for a max of a little over 100 years), this shows the existence of God, by the definition of the word "God."

The fact that the kid and others (all of us) have problems in life shows that there is intelligent design that is way ahead of man, that is not God, that causes destruction. We call this malevolence the devil. The fact that the kid (and most of us) is overcoming the wicked work of the devil, shows that God is alive in us and is more powerful than the devil.

We live only a relatively short life. God is not leaving us here without salvation from problems and pain. God is offering us through the words of the Bible, a means for salvation.

When this life is done for us, it is absolutely done for us. Even if someone thinks there is reincarnation, no reincarnated being has ever returned in a way that is the same as what it was when it left this life. Therefore we don't really know that there is reincarnation.

God tells us in the Bible that when this life is done, it is done. There will come a time that God will destroy this whole universe because of the corruption that the devil placed into it. But, because of the love God has for us, He has designed a new universe where no corruption will be able to enter. He invites us to join Him in that new universe by accepting the work of salvation that Jesus, God's Son, did for us on the cross.

Accept or reject. Your choice. Life or death. Your choice. If you choose death, because of how deeply we are imbedded in this universe (way beyond the simple understandings of man), your real death (soul death; identity death) will be absolutely the exact opposite of fun. And it won't be God's fault, because He is offering you salvation as explained in the Bible.

Proof for God? See https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg10718395#msg10718395.

All that is interesting.  But does not provide 'proof'.

If there is such a proof, it is not in the bible, it is not in commonly held beliefs, it is in the commonality of experience described by those that claim to have been 'touched' or 'born again' or whathaveyou.

That has gone on since time began and continues to this day.  No question, no doubt.  But is that even 'proof'?  not solid, irrefutable proof, no.

There are many others who accept it as proof. Your choice for you.

The "proof" is not complete in every way. We probably couldn't understand the proof if we saw it all, it is that deep and complex. Because of this, most of the religions talk about having faith. Bible explains that faith is the most important thing for joining God in the new universe.

What is faith? Faith is seeing that God exists (not blind faith), and accepting that He speaks the truth, trusting that He is not lying.

Stuff exists. There is NOTHING that explains where things come from that has more provable foundation than the idea of God. Certainly, when you look at the FACTS in scientific papers, they don't explain FACTUALLY any method for the existence of stuff. They have lots of THEORIES, but little fact. God is the best explanation that overcomes any other that we have so far.

Maybe maybe not in terms of being able to 'understand' proof.

In terms of the existence of matter, it is difficult to explain away the appearance of matter from nothing, although taking that a step further then, how it is possible to explain the existence of a God that created it.  Where did it come from then?

What I know is that mankind knows precious little about the universe and thinks he has a lot of it figured out.  We have a long way to go before we can posit much of anything.  Like critters crawling out of the oceans on questions such as these.

Questions like where God came from is a little like the ant in the terrarium, or the goldfish in the fishbowl, asking where their present habitat came from, or if the thing that they see through the glass is God.

How long will it take these critters to figure out anything about their habitat, except to use what is provided for them. God may be correspondingly that much greater than we are. At this stage of the game, the question about where God came from might not even be an appropriate (or even accurate) question. We simply don't know.

[Astargath]

I say so.

Definitive proof ^^^^^ that neither side can 'prove' anything.

Something as complex (the doctors can't fix the kid, yet he exists) and wonderful (the kid is feeling so much joy in life that he moves ahead rather than pining away, looking for suicide) as life, shows that the design was intelligently done. Since the design is way beyond man's understanding (doctors can't cure the kid; people still live only for a max of a little over 100 years), this shows the existence of God, by the definition of the word "God."

The fact that the kid and others (all of us) have problems in life shows that there is intelligent design that is way ahead of man, that is not God, that causes destruction. We call this malevolence the devil. The fact that the kid (and most of us) is overcoming the wicked work of the devil, shows that God is alive in us and is more powerful than the devil.

We live only a relatively short life. God is not leaving us here without salvation from problems and pain. God is offering us through the words of the Bible, a means for salvation.

When this life is done for us, it is absolutely done for us. Even if someone thinks there is reincarnation, no reincarnated being has ever returned in a way that is the same as what it was when it left this life. Therefore we don't really know that there is reincarnation.

God tells us in the Bible that when this life is done, it is done. There will come a time that God will destroy this whole universe because of the corruption that the devil placed into it. But, because of the love God has for us, He has designed a new universe where no corruption will be able to enter. He invites us to join Him in that new universe by accepting the work of salvation that Jesus, God's Son, did for us on the cross.

Accept or reject. Your choice. Life or death. Your choice. If you choose death, because of how deeply we are imbedded in this universe (way beyond the simple understandings of man), your real death (soul death; identity death) will be absolutely the exact opposite of fun. And it won't be God's fault, because He is offering you salvation as explained in the Bible.

Proof for God? See https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg10718395#msg10718395.

Feeling joy you say, seems like you didnt watch the part where he says he is in constant pain even when sleeping, now why would god let someone go through that? Why would he let us see it and wonder why he does it if he knows we will why would he give us this thoughts against him if he knows everything? Why am i questioning his existence right now when he could just prove me wrong at any second with his powers?

[Pentax]

I say so.

Definitive proof ^^^^^ that neither side can 'prove' anything.

Something as complex (the doctors can't fix the kid, yet he exists) and wonderful (the kid is feeling so much joy in life that he moves ahead rather than pining away, looking for suicide) as life, shows that the design was intelligently done. Since the design is way beyond man's understanding (doctors can't cure the kid; people still live only for a max of a little over 100 years), this shows the existence of God, by the definition of the word "God."

The fact that the kid and others (all of us) have problems in life shows that there is intelligent design that is way ahead of man, that is not God, that causes destruction. We call this malevolence the devil. The fact that the kid (and most of us) is overcoming the wicked work of the devil, shows that God is alive in us and is more powerful than the devil.

We live only a relatively short life. God is not leaving us here without salvation from problems and pain. God is offering us through the words of the Bible, a means for salvation.

When this life is done for us, it is absolutely done for us. Even if someone thinks there is reincarnation, no reincarnated being has ever returned in a way that is the same as what it was when it left this life. Therefore we don't really know that there is reincarnation.

God tells us in the Bible that when this life is done, it is done. There will come a time that God will destroy this whole universe because of the corruption that the devil placed into it. But, because of the love God has for us, He has designed a new universe where no corruption will be able to enter. He invites us to join Him in that new universe by accepting the work of salvation that Jesus, God's Son, did for us on the cross.

Accept or reject. Your choice. Life or death. Your choice. If you choose death, because of how deeply we are imbedded in this universe (way beyond the simple understandings of man), your real death (soul death; identity death) will be absolutely the exact opposite of fun. And it won't be God's fault, because He is offering you salvation as explained in the Bible.

Proof for God? See https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg10718395#msg10718395.

All that is interesting.  But does not provide 'proof'.

If there is such a proof, it is not in the bible, it is not in commonly held beliefs, it is in the commonality of experience described by those that claim to have been 'touched' or 'born again' or whathaveyou.

That has gone on since time began and continues to this day.  No question, no doubt.  But is that even 'proof'?  not solid, irrefutable proof, no.

There are many others who accept it as proof. Your choice for you.

The "proof" is not complete in every way. We probably couldn't understand the proof if we saw it all, it is that deep and complex. Because of this, most of the religions talk about having faith. Bible explains that faith is the most important thing for joining God in the new universe.

What is faith? Faith is seeing that God exists (not blind faith), and accepting that He speaks the truth, trusting that He is not lying.

Stuff exists. There is NOTHING that explains where things come from that has more provable foundation than the idea of God. Certainly, when you look at the FACTS in scientific papers, they don't explain FACTUALLY any method for the existence of stuff. They have lots of THEORIES, but little fact. God is the best explanation that overcomes any other that we have so far.

Maybe maybe not in terms of being able to 'understand' proof.

In terms of the existence of matter, it is difficult to explain away the appearance of matter from nothing, although taking that a step further then, how it is possible to explain the existence of a God that created it.  Where did it come from then?

What I know is that mankind knows precious little about the universe and thinks he has a lot of it figured out.  We have a long way to go before we can posit much of anything.  Like critters crawling out of the oceans on questions such as these.

Questions like where God came from is a little like the ant in the terrarium, or the goldfish in the fishbowl, asking where their present habitat came from, or if the thing that they see through the glass is God.

How long will it take these critters to figure out anything about their habitat, except to use what is provided for them. God may be correspondingly that much greater than we are. At this stage of the game, the question about where God came from might not even be an appropriate (or even accurate) question. We simply don't know.

I don't see any harm in questioning everything, including where God came from, given the assumption that It is indeed there.

Questions are easy.  Answers aren't quite as easy to come by, seems to me.

[the joint]

I say so.

Definitive proof ^^^^^ that neither side can 'prove' anything.

Something as complex (the doctors can't fix the kid, yet he exists) and wonderful (the kid is feeling so much joy in life that he moves ahead rather than pining away, looking for suicide) as life, shows that the design was intelligently done. Since the design is way beyond man's understanding (doctors can't cure the kid; people still live only for a max of a little over 100 years), this shows the existence of God, by the definition of the word "God."

The fact that the kid and others (all of us) have problems in life shows that there is intelligent design that is way ahead of man, that is not God, that causes destruction. We call this malevolence the devil. The fact that the kid (and most of us) is overcoming the wicked work of the devil, shows that God is alive in us and is more powerful than the devil.

We live only a relatively short life. God is not leaving us here without salvation from problems and pain. God is offering us through the words of the Bible, a means for salvation.

When this life is done for us, it is absolutely done for us. Even if someone thinks there is reincarnation, no reincarnated being has ever returned in a way that is the same as what it was when it left this life. Therefore we don't really know that there is reincarnation.

God tells us in the Bible that when this life is done, it is done. There will come a time that God will destroy this whole universe because of the corruption that the devil placed into it. But, because of the love God has for us, He has designed a new universe where no corruption will be able to enter. He invites us to join Him in that new universe by accepting the work of salvation that Jesus, God's Son, did for us on the cross.

Accept or reject. Your choice. Life or death. Your choice. If you choose death, because of how deeply we are imbedded in this universe (way beyond the simple understandings of man), your real death (soul death; identity death) will be absolutely the exact opposite of fun. And it won't be God's fault, because He is offering you salvation as explained in the Bible.

Proof for God? See https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg10718395#msg10718395.

All that is interesting.  But does not provide 'proof'.

If there is such a proof, it is not in the bible, it is not in commonly held beliefs, it is in the commonality of experience described by those that claim to have been 'touched' or 'born again' or whathaveyou.

That has gone on since time began and continues to this day.  No question, no doubt.  But is that even 'proof'?  not solid, irrefutable proof, no.

There are many others who accept it as proof. Your choice for you.

The "proof" is not complete in every way. We probably couldn't understand the proof if we saw it all, it is that deep and complex. Because of this, most of the religions talk about having faith. Bible explains that faith is the most important thing for joining God in the new universe.

What is faith? Faith is seeing that God exists (not blind faith), and accepting that He speaks the truth, trusting that He is not lying.

Stuff exists. There is NOTHING that explains where things come from that has more provable foundation than the idea of God. Certainly, when you look at the FACTS in scientific papers, they don't explain FACTUALLY any method for the existence of stuff. They have lots of THEORIES, but little fact. God is the best explanation that overcomes any other that we have so far.

Maybe maybe not in terms of being able to 'understand' proof.

In terms of the existence of matter, it is difficult to explain away the appearance of matter from nothing, although taking that a step further then, how it is possible to explain the existence of a God that created it.  Where did it come from then?

What I know is that mankind knows precious little about the universe and thinks he has a lot of it figured out.  We have a long way to go before we can posit much of anything.  Like critters crawling out of the oceans on questions such as these.

I call BS on the emboldened section.

Logic is a predicate for truth.  We have full access to the rules and limits of logical reasoning.  These rules and limits are knowable independent of experience, and therefore constitute 'a priori' knowledge by definition.

Being able to know and posit truth is not dependent on 'how far we go,' nor is it dependent upon how far we've come.  It's simply about being able to form true statements based upon known, logical predicates.

This is why you see a philosophical basis for modern scientific knowledge in ancient texts from literally every part of the globe.  For example, from a purely logical basis, the Buddhists had an acute awareness of fundamental, elementary particles, as well as an awareness of relationships between physical and metaphysical components:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_atomism

No scientific method, no microscopes, and yet their knowledge is eerily similar to our modern day understanding of the interplay between physics and metaphysics.  This isn't a coincidence.  The scientific method is utterly dependent upon pure philosophical reasoning, and in fact could not function whatsoever without a purely philosophical foundation that is in no way rooted in empiricism (but rather is rooted in the total absence of empiricism, and necessarily so -- see Hume).

Furthermore, if a philosophical model or theory reconciles contradictory empirical theories (and they are numerous), the philosophical model wins by default.  Keeping all else equal, philosophy > empiricism, which makes perfect sense since empiricism is only a philosophical subset.

[L3G1T]

I am a believer of god and think god is real. Most people will disagree with the concept of god because they would rather physically see or hear him. They dont like hearing what other people say.

[QuestionAuthority]

 Proof that God exists is in all of the deformed innocent babies that are born in all those parts of the world that most believe in God. Historically, God has been very cruel and violent towards man. He treats us kind of like that ugly girlfriend that you hated in school. You didn't break up with her because she gave you the booty. You hated her and wanted a better girlfriend but couldn't get one so you just treated her like shit.

God shows his love for all those poor countries that believe in him by giving them a bunch of screwed up little monster babies.