Scientific proof that God exists?

[cooldgamer]

(The second segment of emboldened text was highlighted by "cooldgamer.")

So Dicksperiment, any proof of those 50btc you own?  

Yeah, Decky. Take Vod on his honor, and send him the bitcoins. He'll send 'em back if he loses.  

He asked him to sign the address, not send him the coins

On topic: no matter how much you guys debate how entropy works, it still doesn't prove there is a god.  Seems to be the latest buzzword for trying to disprove evolution, even though scientists have already debunked that idea.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo.html

You missed a detail of our conversation. (See the emboldened portion.)

Boil glass of water, colouring will stick to sides.

By what means shall you boil such that you do not introduce "new disorder" into yourself (as per the requirements)?

Ok, I'll sit it out knowing the water will evaporate, and leave the colouring behind. I promise not to touch it

That introduces new disorder into the environment, the diffusion of the water molecules through the atmosphere.

You introduced this disorder, not I, I just sat and fell asleep watching it.. remember your up against someone who will get to the truth of the matter, in that you chose water, knowing it would evaporate of it's own accord, I had no say in this scientific fact, I merely debunked the question, using nothing.

Edit: twas a good question, you had me thinking, but it is also an invalid question with regards to your point, due to the fact you forgot water is constantly changing.

That "constant change" illustrates (part of) my point: entropy does, indeed, proceed towards a maximum.

What was then to be argued is that existence is an isolated system and, therefore, subject to the maximization of entropy, and that this "maximization" begets the manifestation of everything (not read: "everything that exists" [though, that's technically accurate]).

By thermodynamics, existence, which is an isolated system, would "spontaneously evolve towards thermodynamic equilibrium, the configuration with maximum entropy" (Wikipedia).

Nothing, then, is lost to everything.

It is to be inferred from there that God necessarily exists.

In a closed system entropy does increase, buuut...

However, they neglect the fact that life is not a closed system. The sun provides more than enough energy to drive things. If a mature tomato plant can have more usable energy than the seed it grew from, why should anyone expect that the next generation of tomatoes can't have more usable energy still? Creationists sometimes try to get around this by claiming that the information carried by living things lets them create order. However, not only is life irrelevant to the 2nd law, but order from disorder is common in nonliving systems, too. Snowflakes, sand dunes, tornadoes, stalactites, graded river beds, and lightning are just a few examples of order coming from disorder in nature; none require an intelligent program to achieve that order. In any nontrivial system with lots of energy flowing through it, you are almost certain to find order arising somewhere in the system. If order from disorder is supposed to violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics, why is it ubiquitous in nature?

That demonstrates my final assertion above: God would be the ultimate manifestation of that order within existence.

I misunderstood your argument, my bad.  You are simply using the god of the gaps.  There are many ways that the minimum entropy state could have come about, and since we don't know you're throwing god in there.

For example, the big crunch theory:

In physical cosmology, the Big Crunch is one possible scenario for the ultimate fate of the universe, in which the metric expansion of space eventually reverses and the universe recollapses, ultimately ending as a black hole singularity or causing a reformation of the universe starting with another big bang.

[Seketsuna]

Ha!! Scientific proof? why do you need science to prove that god exists if you believe that he exists that is more than enough.

[BADecker]

Ha!! Scientific proof? why do you need science to prove that god exists if you believe that he exists that is more than enough.

This is one of the scientific proofs that God exists. Here's how.

Up until recently, science has mostly ignored the idea of the soul. Sure, science is into psychology, but the idea of a soul as an objective "something" has always had its problems in the scientific community. Part of the reason for this is that nobody has any kind of a handle on how to scientifically investigate a soul.

Most of the religious community, and of almost every religion, accepts that there is a soul. It is accepted second nature. Even some non-religious philosophies consider the soul to exist. Here is the point. Since science doesn't have a handle on the soul, DOESN'T mean that the soul doesn't exist.

For example. Electricity is something that we have theory for nowadays. But science knew that electricity existed long before there was theory for it. Science expected theory for it. Science looked for theory for it. But we used electricity for a long time before ANYBODY understood what it was.

What does this have to do with proving God? The souls of people are the things that affect the minds of people in such a way that says - to some people - that God exists. So far, the science for the soul is very weak. The science that exists for the soul allows that there is God, and at the same time allows that there is not God, depending on whose soul it is that is acting - causing the believing. This is because there isn't enough science to say one way or the other about the soul, and it is the soul that has to do with the God connection.

Until such a time that there is clear scientific examination of the soul, we can only conclude that, for the believers in God, God REALLY does exist. Why? Because it might be that God DOES exist, and scientifically examining the soul just might prove it.

Now, if God really does exist, like you an I do, He just might come and prove to the non-believers that He is real. But until that time comes, He DOES exist at the same time that He DOES NOT exist, depending on who is considering the question.



EDIT: Something like this is difficult to talk about clearly. I wish that I had more time to get into it.

[Rassah]

If Dicksperiment proves he has 50btc, I'll take him up on the offer and sell him Vod's info.

[bl4kjaguar]

Right now there's a bunch of evidence for intelligent design and not so much for evolution.

LOL.  There is zero evidence for intelligent design.  Educate yourself.  

Don't be gullible! Read Spencer's First Principles and if you are wise, your intellect will be able to prove something remarkable. Also study this guy, one of the most objective thinkers of our time:

Every error is caused by emotions and education (implicit and explicit); intellect by itself (not disturbed by anything outside) could not err.

I don’t think the brain came in the Darwinian manner. In fact, it is disprovable. Simple mechanism can’t yield the brain. I think the basic elements of the universe are simple. Life force is a primitive element of the universe and it obeys certain laws of action. These laws are not simple, and they are not mechanical.

Even with much education, one can be so mistaken, and very error-prone. Wow.

[Lethn]

I dont HAVE a fuckin god you fuckin twat, your like the idiot who walks in a pub and gets a wiff of booze and suddenly your the man, but if you'd been in the pub long enough, you'd realise every cunt wants tae kick the shit ooty ye, but yer too pissed tae take the fuckin hint.. your nowt but a coward behind a keyboard, wi nae girlfriend tae wake up the way only I know how to..

Dicksperiment, it's obvious you are the one that is dragging bitcoin down with your garbage posts.   You need to grow up and move out of your parent's house.  

As someone who hasn't moved out of their parents' house yet I resent that stereotype

[rivoke]

are we talking about God Fro the Bible or just a general God that created us?

[BADecker]

are we talking about God Fro the Bible or just a general God that created us?

I think that the general consensus would be the God of the Bible. Basically, because of the history of the English speaking peoples, and this being an English speaking forum, it would probably be the God of the Bible.



EDIT: All right. Recent history of the English speaking peoples.

[username18333]

(The second segment of emboldened text was highlighted by "cooldgamer.")

So Dicksperiment, any proof of those 50btc you own?  

Yeah, Decky. Take Vod on his honor, and send him the bitcoins. He'll send 'em back if he loses.  

He asked him to sign the address, not send him the coins

On topic: no matter how much you guys debate how entropy works, it still doesn't prove there is a god.  Seems to be the latest buzzword for trying to disprove evolution, even though scientists have already debunked that idea.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo.html

You missed a detail of our conversation. (See the emboldened portion.)

Boil glass of water, colouring will stick to sides.

By what means shall you boil such that you do not introduce "new disorder" into yourself (as per the requirements)?

Ok, I'll sit it out knowing the water will evaporate, and leave the colouring behind. I promise not to touch it

That introduces new disorder into the environment, the diffusion of the water molecules through the atmosphere.

You introduced this disorder, not I, I just sat and fell asleep watching it.. remember your up against someone who will get to the truth of the matter, in that you chose water, knowing it would evaporate of it's own accord, I had no say in this scientific fact, I merely debunked the question, using nothing.

Edit: twas a good question, you had me thinking, but it is also an invalid question with regards to your point, due to the fact you forgot water is constantly changing.

That "constant change" illustrates (part of) my point: entropy does, indeed, proceed towards a maximum.

What was then to be argued is that existence is an isolated system and, therefore, subject to the maximization of entropy, and that this "maximization" begets the manifestation of everything (not read: "everything that exists" [though, that's technically accurate]).

By thermodynamics, existence, which is an isolated system, would "spontaneously evolve towards thermodynamic equilibrium, the configuration with maximum entropy" (Wikipedia).

Nothing, then, is lost to everything.

It is to be inferred from there that God necessarily exists.

In a closed system entropy does increase, buuut...

However, they neglect the fact that life is not a closed system. The sun provides more than enough energy to drive things. If a mature tomato plant can have more usable energy than the seed it grew from, why should anyone expect that the next generation of tomatoes can't have more usable energy still? Creationists sometimes try to get around this by claiming that the information carried by living things lets them create order. However, not only is life irrelevant to the 2nd law, but order from disorder is common in nonliving systems, too. Snowflakes, sand dunes, tornadoes, stalactites, graded river beds, and lightning are just a few examples of order coming from disorder in nature; none require an intelligent program to achieve that order. In any nontrivial system with lots of energy flowing through it, you are almost certain to find order arising somewhere in the system. If order from disorder is supposed to violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics, why is it ubiquitous in nature?

That demonstrates my final assertion above: God would be the ultimate manifestation of that order within existence.

I misunderstood your argument, my bad.  You are simply using the god of the gaps.  There are many ways that the minimum entropy state could have come about, and since we don't know you're throwing god in there.

For example, the big crunch theory:

In physical cosmology, the Big Crunch is one possible scenario for the ultimate fate of the universe, in which the metric expansion of space eventually reverses and the universe recollapses, ultimately ending as a black hole singularity or causing a reformation of the universe starting with another big bang.

I asserted God to be the acme of "minimum entropy state."

[BADecker]

I'm really having a hard time here. What I mean is, if God didn't exist, that is, if it were a for-real, proven fact that God didn't exist, that would clarify some things. But it hasn't been proven that God does NOT exist.

Now, since we don't have a way of scientifically proving that God does or doesn't exist, I am having a hard time understanding how foolish some of these bold people can be, that they would mock God. I mean, what if He exists?

If God doesn't exist, any reverence for Him that I might show would be wasted. If the reverence happened to be in the form of $money that I donated to a church, then I would at least be donating to the support of some preacher. It would be like I was helping him and his family to live, no matter how ignorant and foolish they were. And I could feel a little bit of pride in that.

But what if God DOES exist? You don't REALLY know that He doesn't. Some of you should be a little more quiet, rather than mocking of something you don't know.

If there is a God, there is a good chance that He isn't just a little bit God, but that He just might be God Almighty. You are going to die in a few years. If you don't honor the idea of God existing, and He DOES exist, He has all time to mess with you if He wants. I would think THAT would induce a little respect of the idea, so at least you would act civilly towards the idea.

If it ever gets proven that there is NO God, then you have all the time you want to freely mock.  But until you have the proof, how can you be so foolish as to tempt something that might be as great as God? Some of your fellow mockers who have departed this life, might already be suffering in great pain and agony, on some other planet, in some other dimension, totally outside of your sight.

You want respect. What if God exists, and wants respect a thousand times more than you do?

[cooldgamer]

I'm really having a hard time here. What I mean is, if God didn't exist, that is, if it were a for-real, proven fact that God didn't exist, that would clarify some things. But it hasn't been proven that God does NOT exist.

Now, since we don't have a way of scientifically proving that God does or doesn't exist, I am having a hard time understanding how foolish some of these bold people can be, that they would mock God. I mean, what if He exists?

If God doesn't exist, any reverence for Him that I might show would be wasted. If the reverence happened to be in the form of $money that I donated to a church, then I would at least be donating to the support of some preacher. It would be like I was helping him and his family to live, no matter how ignorant and foolish they were. And I could feel a little bit of pride in that.

But what if God DOES exist? You don't REALLY know that He doesn't. Some of you should be a little more quiet, rather than mocking of something you don't know.

If there is a God, there is a good chance that He isn't just a little bit God, but that He just might be God Almighty. You are going to die in a few years. If you don't honor the idea of God existing, and He DOES exist, He has all time to mess with you if He wants. I would think THAT would induce a little respect of the idea, so at least you would act civilly towards the idea.

If it ever gets proven that there is NO God, then you have all the time you want to freely mock.  But until you have the proof, how can you be so foolish as to tempt something that might be as great as God? Some of your fellow mockers who have departed this life, might already be suffering in great pain and agony, on some other planet, in some other dimension, totally outside of your sight.

You want respect. What if God exists, and wants respect a thousand times more than you do?

Nice job being the millionth person to use Pascal's Wager

All we have guaranteed is this life, I'd rather spend my time living it to the fullest than praising some god that may or may not exist in the off chance that he does and wants to burn us in a fiery hell for the rest of eternity if we don't believe in and respect him.

[jackjack]

You want respect. What if God exists, and wants respect a thousand times more than you do?

I don't want nor expect respect from people who don't know I exist.
The contrary would be unsanely stupid. You can't hide in the woods so that nobody sees you and yet being mad that people don't respect/like/have faith in you.
If god is actually like this he should seek professional help.

[BADecker]

Nice job being the millionth person to use Pascal's Wager

All we have guaranteed is this life, I'd rather spend my time living it to the fullest than praising some god that may or may not exist in the off chance that he does and wants to burn us in a fiery hell for the rest of eternity if we don't believe in and respect him.

You want respect. What if God exists, and wants respect a thousand times more than you do?

I don't want nor expect respect from people who don't know I exist.
The contrary would be unsanely stupid. You can't hide in the woods so that nobody sees you and yet being mad that people don't respect/like/have faith in you.
If god is actually like this he should seek professional help.

Yes. It's my fault. I should be writing short posts. How can I expect anyone to read some of the long things I post? At least, I hope that is what it is.

[username18333]

Nice job being the millionth person to use Pascal's Wager

All we have guaranteed is this life, I'd rather spend my time living it to the fullest than praising some god that may or may not exist in the off chance that he does and wants to burn us in a fiery hell for the rest of eternity if we don't believe in and respect him.

You want respect. What if God exists, and wants respect a thousand times more than you do?

I don't want nor expect respect from people who don't know I exist.
The contrary would be unsanely stupid. You can't hide in the woods so that nobody sees you and yet being mad that people don't respect/like/have faith in you.
If god is actually like this he should seek professional help.

Yes. It's my fault. I should be writing short posts. How can I expect anyone to read some of the long things I post? At least, I hope that is what it is.

God has been demonstrated to "personify" a superlative minimum entropy state. Therewithin, Gods more maximally entropic should proffer haven.

[bitsalame]

I have a thought experiment that disproves the existence of supernatural worlds, which in turn it implies the non existence of deities.
This argument of mine cornered my own beliefs in my religion, it is brutally simple and effective and I even left priests in silence to finally hear them muttering: "if that's true, then yeah, God can't exist".
So I had no options but to renounce my faith and fall in despair.

It took me a few years to reexplore my existential purpose and accept the non existence of deities.
Even though I am now an atheist, I am against anti-theism, which is the militant atheism that ironically attempts to convert believers to their own truth.

Change in belief systems are not only hard, but it can also be harmful, if not pointless. Like plugging out someone from the Matrix when you are already too old.
1st) You won't convince them. Even if you lay out all the facts in front of them, they will be protected with their defense mechanism: denial, fallacies and cognitive dissonances. There is no point to reason logically when they can't or they refuse to do so.
2nd) If you do convince them that their life has been a lie for... their entire life, be prepared to see them get depressed.

Keep your own beliefs to yourself, because you will seldomly make someone change their beliefs with logic, unless they are really prepared for it.
Most peoples fall into religion not because of a logical decision, but because of emotional needs.
Irrational beliefs and irrational behavior very often has an emotional cause.

Let them be.

[jackjack]

Nice job being the millionth person to use Pascal's Wager

All we have guaranteed is this life, I'd rather spend my time living it to the fullest than praising some god that may or may not exist in the off chance that he does and wants to burn us in a fiery hell for the rest of eternity if we don't believe in and respect him.

You want respect. What if God exists, and wants respect a thousand times more than you do?

I don't want nor expect respect from people who don't know I exist.
The contrary would be unsanely stupid. You can't hide in the woods so that nobody sees you and yet being mad that people don't respect/like/have faith in you.
If god is actually like this he should seek professional help.

Yes. It's my fault. I should be writing short posts. How can I expect anyone to read some of the long things I post? At least, I hope that is what it is.

I'm glad you finally realized that

[BADecker]

Nice job being the millionth person to use Pascal's Wager

All we have guaranteed is this life, I'd rather spend my time living it to the fullest than praising some god that may or may not exist in the off chance that he does and wants to burn us in a fiery hell for the rest of eternity if we don't believe in and respect him.

You want respect. What if God exists, and wants respect a thousand times more than you do?

I don't want nor expect respect from people who don't know I exist.
The contrary would be unsanely stupid. You can't hide in the woods so that nobody sees you and yet being mad that people don't respect/like/have faith in you.
If god is actually like this he should seek professional help.

Yes. It's my fault. I should be writing short posts. How can I expect anyone to read some of the long things I post? At least, I hope that is what it is.

God has been demonstrated to "personify" a superlative minimum entropy state. Therewithin, Gods more maximally entropic should proffer haven.

But only if the Bible has demonstrated God to be such. Nature gives us a hint at what God is like. And while the Bible doesn't explain Him clearly - like if He were standing right in front of you - the Bible gives us many times more direct info.

[BADecker]

Nice job being the millionth person to use Pascal's Wager

All we have guaranteed is this life, I'd rather spend my time living it to the fullest than praising some god that may or may not exist in the off chance that he does and wants to burn us in a fiery hell for the rest of eternity if we don't believe in and respect him.

You want respect. What if God exists, and wants respect a thousand times more than you do?

I don't want nor expect respect from people who don't know I exist.
The contrary would be unsanely stupid. You can't hide in the woods so that nobody sees you and yet being mad that people don't respect/like/have faith in you.
If god is actually like this he should seek professional help.

Yes. It's my fault. I should be writing short posts. How can I expect anyone to read some of the long things I post? At least, I hope that is what it is.

I'm glad you finally realized that

Thanks jackjack. I expect that you are one of the greater minds in here... one who could understand if he/she wanted to read.

[BitChick]

I'm really having a hard time here. What I mean is, if God didn't exist, that is, if it were a for-real, proven fact that God didn't exist, that would clarify some things. But it hasn't been proven that God does NOT exist.

Now, since we don't have a way of scientifically proving that God does or doesn't exist, I am having a hard time understanding how foolish some of these bold people can be, that they would mock God. I mean, what if He exists?

If God doesn't exist, any reverence for Him that I might show would be wasted. If the reverence happened to be in the form of $money that I donated to a church, then I would at least be donating to the support of some preacher. It would be like I was helping him and his family to live, no matter how ignorant and foolish they were. And I could feel a little bit of pride in that.

But what if God DOES exist? You don't REALLY know that He doesn't. Some of you should be a little more quiet, rather than mocking of something you don't know.

If there is a God, there is a good chance that He isn't just a little bit God, but that He just might be God Almighty. You are going to die in a few years. If you don't honor the idea of God existing, and He DOES exist, He has all time to mess with you if He wants. I would think THAT would induce a little respect of the idea, so at least you would act civilly towards the idea.

If it ever gets proven that there is NO God, then you have all the time you want to freely mock.  But until you have the proof, how can you be so foolish as to tempt something that might be as great as God? Some of your fellow mockers who have departed this life, might already be suffering in great pain and agony, on some other planet, in some other dimension, totally outside of your sight.

You want respect. What if God exists, and wants respect a thousand times more than you do?

I have had discussions that have gone like this.

Friend:  I believe all paths are equally valid so the idea of one way being the only way is wrong.

Me:  Let's say you are right.  All paths are valid.  But Christianity says that there is no way to the Father except through Christ. Wouldn't it be logical to at least follow Christianity then?  It seems to be the safest route.

Friend:  That is actually logical.  You are starting to persuade me.  

Of course,  BADecker, I agree with you.  The only thing I am pondering though is the idea of God "wanting" our respect.  I think perhaps it is more that He wants us to seek Him on our own and not be forced to.  The "respect" of God by all will eventually take place.  Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.  It will either be out of our own choice or after we die.  But I think many people see God as mean and judgmental when in reality He doesn't want anyone to suffer and loves us all very much.   He wants everyone to know Him and to seek Him and love Him and the "respect" should come from a true relationship and awe of how amazing He is.  Just my thoughts.

[BADecker]

I have had discussions that have gone like this.

Friend:  I believe all paths are equally valid so the idea of one way being the only way is wrong.

Me:  Let's say you are right.  All paths are valid.  But Christianity says that there is no way to the Father except through Christ. Wouldn't it be logical to at least follow Christianity then?  It seems to be the safest route.

Friend:  That is actually logical.  You are starting to persuade me.  

Of course,  BADecker, I agree with you.  The only thing I am pondering though is the idea of God "wanting" our respect.  I think perhaps it is more that He wants us to seek Him on our own and not be forced too.  The "respect" of God by all will eventually take place.  Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.  It will either be out of our own choice or after we die.  But I think many people see God as mean and judgmental when in reality He doesn't want anyone to suffer and loves us all very much.   He wants everyone to know Him and to seek Him and love Him and the "respect" should come from a true relationship and awe of how amazing He is.  Just my thoughts.

Remember what the word "God" means, by the dictionary. God is Someone Who is Great.

Respect for God would be simply to acknowledge Him. To recognize that there is a possibility that He exists would even be a simple respect.



EDIT: The ancient Greeks were very smart people. In Athens they had an alter with the inscription "To An Unknown God." Those Greeks recognized that they didn't know everything. Among all their gods and goddesses, they realized that they might have missed one. And they didn't want to show disrespect by leaving him/her out. So they built that special alter.

Our atheists are really stupid. They won't even acknowledge ANY god. They are so smart. That's why they can keep themselves alive for so many thousands of years. They know it all!