KanoPool since 2014 🐈 - PPLNS and Solo 0.5% fee - Worldwide - 2436 blocks

[RealMalatesta]

Yeah some people don't understand the difference between being 0.2btc behind or 4BTC behind, or 40BTC behind. Not quite the same .  

Guess you don't write about me - believe me, I do understand the difference 

 Myself as an entrepreneur, I do understand behind, I get paid 90 days in arrears but some of my paments are 100+ days behind but I know I with get paid in due time.

I' not talking 10-20 dollars either im talking 80-100k in arrears, but business as usual.

Oh, how I know this.... But know what's worse: US clients who try to send me - after 90+ days - the money by wire, but the banks fail six times but always deduct 180+ for each try, then the client sends a check which takes here additional three months and a big fee to cash in. But when you tell the client he should just buy some Bitcoin and send them over, he reacts as if you just asked him to rape your dog.

So basically, some hours delay are less painful  

[1714875917]

1714875917

[1714875917]

1714875917

[1714875917]

1714875917

[thedreamer]

Yeah some people don't understand the difference between being 0.2btc behind or 4BTC behind, or 40BTC behind. Not quite the same .  

Guess you don't write about me - believe me, I do understand the difference 

 Myself as an entrepreneur, I do understand behind, I get paid 90 days in arrears but some of my paments are 100+ days behind but I know I with get paid in due time.

I' not talking 10-20 dollars either im talking 80-100k in arrears, but business as usual.

Not the same, as you expect it will take that long (or up to). Most people are used to the fast payments on here and need it to cover expenses from what I see and people I know.

[RealMalatesta]

Yeah some people don't understand the difference between being 0.2btc behind or 4BTC behind, or 40BTC behind. Not quite the same .  

Guess you don't write about me - believe me, I do understand the difference  

Then you wouldn't be saying this :

"Frankly: I don't care if the payment is late for one block, five blocks or twenty blocks. Someone probably tried to cheat, and kano is investigating it. This means that all of us may - probably - get more at the end of the day if someone was running a withholding attack. If not, we all will get what we mined for."

YOU may not care, but others that rely on the payments to cover costs associated with their operation MIGHT.
Most people don't have 50BTC to fall back on in case of a few day's worth of no payments and bad luck on a pool.

I know lot of small miners that do it for small income and fun, as well as rent to play with their luck. Once there are no payments they might not be able to continue mining or renting. I am thinking of the little guys/gals.

If you really don't care, you should offer up all the past due payments to cover the people that need it or have to stop mining........Still don't care?

Well, so tell me how much hasn't been paid out until now. One day? Two? A week? Don't be the drama queen.

[thedreamer]

Well, so tell me how much hasn't been paid out until now. One day? Two? A week? Don't be the drama queen.

Are you really this dense? Or just playing one on TV?

[Pissenlit]

Received 2 payments an hour ago. Thanks Kano!  

[Megaquake]

Yeah some people don't understand the difference between being 0.2btc behind or 4BTC behind, or 40BTC behind. Not quite the same .  

Guess you don't write about me - believe me, I do understand the difference 

 Myself as an entrepreneur, I do understand behind, I get paid 90 days in arrears but some of my paments are 100+ days behind but I know I with get paid in due time.

I' not talking 10-20 dollars either im talking 80-100k in arrears, but business as usual.

Oh, how I know this.... But know what's worse: US clients who try to send me - after 90+ days - the money by wire, but the banks fail six times but always deduct 180+ for each try, then the client sends a check which takes here additional three months and a big fee to cash in. But when you tell the client he should just buy some Bitcoin and send them over, he reacts as if you just asked him to rape your dog.

So basically, some hours delay are less painful  

 I would certainly do business in BTC but the companies I do business with will not, I have already brought that to the table.

[RealMalatesta]

Well, so tell me how much hasn't been paid out until now. One day? Two? A week? Don't be the drama queen.

Are you really this dense? Or just playing one on TV?

I asked you a simple question....  

Fact is: If there is a long run with bad luck, miner don't get anything.

But in the current situation, kano is checking the stats. Miner will get their coins. With a little delay, but they will get it.

If they have to pay their expenses on a daily base, they are better off with the current situation than with a long run with bad luck, agree?

I do admit: I don't know if there are countries where you have to pay your electricity bill on a weekly base. In such a case, it could be difficult, here I agree. But this is about the only case I could think of where a short delay in payments could be critical.

[RealMalatesta]

Yeah some people don't understand the difference between being 0.2btc behind or 4BTC behind, or 40BTC behind. Not quite the same .  

Guess you don't write about me - believe me, I do understand the difference 

 Myself as an entrepreneur, I do understand behind, I get paid 90 days in arrears but some of my paments are 100+ days behind but I know I with get paid in due time.

I' not talking 10-20 dollars either im talking 80-100k in arrears, but business as usual.

Oh, how I know this.... But know what's worse: US clients who try to send me - after 90+ days - the money by wire, but the banks fail six times but always deduct 180+ for each try, then the client sends a check which takes here additional three months and a big fee to cash in. But when you tell the client he should just buy some Bitcoin and send them over, he reacts as if you just asked him to rape your dog.

So basically, some hours delay are less painful  

 I would certainly do business in BTC but the companies I do business with will not, I have already brought that to the table.

At least my accountant agreed to be paid in BTC after he saw the balance sheets :-)

[stonebone]

Received 2 payments an hour ago. Thanks Kano!  

Same here, payment has catched up to block

Nr.640 Block Nr. 402347 mined by kmstudio.eu01

 
Mine on!
 

[Megaquake]

Yeah some people don't understand the difference between being 0.2btc behind or 4BTC behind, or 40BTC behind. Not quite the same .  

Guess you don't write about me - believe me, I do understand the difference 

 Myself as an entrepreneur, I do understand behind, I get paid 90 days in arrears but some of my paments are 100+ days behind but I know I with get paid in due time.

I' not talking 10-20 dollars either im talking 80-100k in arrears, but business as usual.

Oh, how I know this.... But know what's worse: US clients who try to send me - after 90+ days - the money by wire, but the banks fail six times but always deduct 180+ for each try, then the client sends a check which takes here additional three months and a big fee to cash in. But when you tell the client he should just buy some Bitcoin and send them over, he reacts as if you just asked him to rape your dog.

So basically, some hours delay are less painful  

 I would certainly do business in BTC but the companies I do business with will not, I have already brought that to the table.

At least my accountant agreed to be paid in BTC after he saw the balance sheets :-)

That's great I would love to pay my accountant in BTC, employees also.

[hoosier_13]

My lawyer takes bitcoin and so does the deli down the street.  In due time.

[nhando]

Yeah some people don't understand the difference between being 0.2btc behind or 4BTC behind, or 40BTC behind. Not quite the same .  

Guess you don't write about me - believe me, I do understand the difference 

 Myself as an entrepreneur, I do understand behind, I get paid 90 days in arrears but some of my paments are 100+ days behind but I know I with get paid in due time.

I' not talking 10-20 dollars either im talking 80-100k in arrears, but business as usual.

Not the same, as you expect it will take that long (or up to). Most people are used to the fast payments on here and need it to cover expenses from what I see and people I know.

Spot on.  It's like if you're paid once a month, you know you're ok waiting a month.  However if that check comes in 2 months late, different story.  Using your business terms, if you're supposed to be collecting on Net 30 and got paid on Net 90 or Net 180, you may be screwed depending on the line of business and how leveraged you are, so in return you may expect late fees or other compensations.

Many of us supported Kano way before it was a popular pool, less than 4PH which is less than my current combine hashing power with my many partners today.  We stayed, thru the good times and bad times.  Fubly and I actually worked very hard to try convince more big players to push the pool hashing to 40PH+ during that nasty 600+ block to get us out of the dry spell faster.  My partners and I were pushing over 7500PH combined during that nasty duration. My partners always asked me why I like Kano pool so much when there's better more profitable guaranteed PPS, reverse rentals etc, vs higher variance here.  I just tell them, because we have the best damn pool community and support.   So as a community we should support each other by providing useful supporting info like referencing what Kano is working on if it's hidden too many pages back.  Don't speculate and don't make silly remarks when a member is concern about a very bad delay or missing payment.  They have a right to know and hearing it from the pool operator carries more weight then "Chill, relax, it will come."  No pool is perfect and every process can be improved but in order for that to happen we need to raise all the issues and concerns so that Kano / CK can be aware and address those issues.  

*****ON a happier Note................we're getting back to the FAST track again, let's hope the blocks keep coming in......................**********

[Megaquake]

My lawyer takes bitcoin and so does the deli down the street.  In due time.

So many people in the USA don't know what BTC is, I have tried on many occasions to get people around me involved.

[nhando]

Yeah some people don't understand the difference between being 0.2btc behind or 4BTC behind, or 40BTC behind. Not quite the same .  

Guess you don't write about me - believe me, I do understand the difference  

Then you wouldn't be saying this :

"Frankly: I don't care if the payment is late for one block, five blocks or twenty blocks. Someone probably tried to cheat, and kano is investigating it. This means that all of us may - probably - get more at the end of the day if someone was running a withholding attack. If not, we all will get what we mined for."

YOU may not care, but others that rely on the payments to cover costs associated with their operation MIGHT.
Most people don't have 50BTC to fall back on in case of a few day's worth of no payments and bad luck on a pool.

I know lot of small miners that do it for small income and fun, as well as rent to play with their luck. Once there are no payments they might not be able to continue mining or renting. I am thinking of the little guys/gals.

If you really don't care, you should offer up all the past due payments to cover the people that need it or have to stop mining........Still don't care?

Well, so tell me how much hasn't been paid out until now. One day? Two? A week? Don't be the drama queen.

Imagine 6 of these blocks x 2 account.  
401172   4/Mar 22:25   25.67942554   833.339G   32hr 52m 28s   30.24PHs   7.90%   65.803G   2,388.06THs   2.02773206

Of course the current ones that were on hold is way less as our luck have been crap.  My partners and I was actually pushing over 7500TH via my account and DROID during that nasty block which net us next to nothing but that's a different story.  We accept that as a risk of PPLNS, we just want to make sure payment is on time.  I don't think there's any drama queen about that.  If you're thousands short, you would be messaging all day too.  
Now if you use ROI calculator, you can see just 1 day of normal PPS payout for 7500TH is almost $10,000 so you can see the opportunity loss for me to decide against my partner's advice to continue pushing thru.  So again, when someone raise a concern, let the Pool Operator handles it unless we have a solution or tip to offer.  This is especially critical to our new pool members who may not have the same solid history.  

[Megaquake]

 We are good and we will continue to be good, the last 100 blocks in 26 days should be enough to tell you, happy mining.

[not.you]

Quoting Slush's facebook post on Feb 6. about it:
"Dear miners, we would like to inform you that we have detected and resolved an unintentional block withholding

The issue has been discovered a week ago and we have immediately taken an action by contacting the particular miner. The cause turned out to be a bug in a custom mining firmware, which has been promptly fixed by the miner. We have no indication that there was any bad intention. The fixed firmware solved two blocks since then so we can consider this issue as resolved.

A recent time period of worse luck can be at least partly attributed to this incident.

Block withholding attack is a well-known weakness of the whole pool mining principle and no public pool is immune against it.

As a by-product of the bad luck investigation, we have implemented a new method how to mathematically prove that the pool does not cheat on miners. This feature will be released after the public interface has been tweaked. The release is planned towards the end of next week."
End Quote

He said it was a week, but people had been asking about poor luck at the pool since early December. The end result was that the miner did not repay the pool, and the "bad luck" still to continued. With no further comment from him on it. The only "news" was the pool's new interface.

I've sat through bad luck streaks before and kept silent, cuz hey, they happen. I worked in the casino business for 20 years. But with no answers/comments coming from slush and combine it with orphan block debacle that seemed to just drag on, I started looking for a new place to mine.

I landed here at Kano.is and have been very happy with the transparency of the pool operator and the community overall.

That's interesting.  That EXACT same thing happened on Bitminter some time ago.  Big miner, not hitting blocks, custom software was blamed.  I don't believe it went on for as long though.

[philipma1957]

Quoting Slush's facebook post on Feb 6. about it:
"Dear miners, we would like to inform you that we have detected and resolved an unintentional block withholding

The issue has been discovered a week ago and we have immediately taken an action by contacting the particular miner. The cause turned out to be a bug in a custom mining firmware, which has been promptly fixed by the miner. We have no indication that there was any bad intention. The fixed firmware solved two blocks since then so we can consider this issue as resolved.

A recent time period of worse luck can be at least partly attributed to this incident.

Block withholding attack is a well-known weakness of the whole pool mining principle and no public pool is immune against it.

As a by-product of the bad luck investigation, we have implemented a new method how to mathematically prove that the pool does not cheat on miners. This feature will be released after the public interface has been tweaked. The release is planned towards the end of next week."
End Quote

He said it was a week, but people had been asking about poor luck at the pool since early December. The end result was that the miner did not repay the pool, and the "bad luck" still to continued. With no further comment from him on it. The only "news" was the pool's new interface.

I've sat through bad luck streaks before and kept silent, cuz hey, they happen. I worked in the casino business for 20 years. But with no answers/comments coming from slush and combine it with orphan block debacle that seemed to just drag on, I started looking for a new place to mine.

I landed here at Kano.is and have been very happy with the transparency of the pool operator and the community overall.

That's interesting.  That EXACT same thing happened on Bitminter some time ago.  Big miner, not hitting blocks, custom software was blamed.  I don't believe it went on for as long though.

multipool?  but it was a while ago

[xman77]

Why am I getting an error when I try to input my payout address?

[kano]

Well, that's a few pages of 'interesting' comments

I was just gonna do a quick click though all these pages since 'last night' since I'm working on the next 4 payouts that are overdue, but then decided I better post some more details rather than wait until after I finish processing the payouts.

Yes I've sent out (and all but one person) has received the payouts for blocks 402342 and 402347
We confirmed the 2 payouts

Over the last 2 days I've been doing a lot of work on the share tracking to determine if miners are doing the wrong thing
(intentionally or unintentionally)
This is of course related to the stuff organofcorti mentioned and I posted about his comments here also.
I've found a few miners, 2 are pretty much certain, and the rest very likely, using hardware that doesn't mine properly.
They all started mining in January, their total payouts since then have been less than 1 block.
These are miners that have the same problem as that 'other' pool.
I wonder if they just moved their hardware here, from there?
The pool logs ALL sorts of information that I will go through later to see if there is any correlation between them all
(and any other miners) Then I'll contact them some time after that ...

At this point I'm going to stop all their payouts, so they end up in their 'dust', until they find blocks.
Also, the block finding luck will need to be better than 100%, since they need to cover the pool's loss of their payouts they've received.
i.e. they have about a 2/3 chance of finding a block in time to cover their ... actions.

See, I see it as: if I ask for the BTC back, that they've been paid, I doubt anyone would give it back and blame their choice of hardware on ... well no idea ... but blaming it on the pool is not gonna work for me.
If they run away, then the dust building up in their accounts will eventually be redistributed based on the payout it should have been in, back to everyone else as 'adjustments' later once that is possible.
It's not a lot of BTC, single digits on each account, and total is, as I said, less than a block.

This is also now the next code change I've got to do, a way to simply flag an account to be in this state of no 'auto' payout so I don't have to manually intervene with these accounts during the payout process.

I'll post more details at some later time, but yeah I better get back to these 4 payouts overdue since last night.

[RealMalatesta]

Of course the current ones that were on hold is way less as our luck have been crap.  My partners and I was actually pushing over 7500TH via my account and DROID during that nasty block which net us next to nothing but that's a different story.  We accept that as a risk of PPLNS, we just want to make sure payment is on time.  I don't think there's any drama queen about that.  If you're thousands short, you would be messaging all day too.  
Now if you use ROI calculator, you can see just 1 day of normal PPS payout for 7500TH is almost $10,000 so you can see the opportunity loss for me to decide against my partner's advice to continue pushing thru.  So again, when someone raise a concern, let the Pool Operator handles it unless we have a solution or tip to offer.  This is especially critical to our new pool members who may not have the same solid history.  

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if it is $10'000 or $0.1.

As kano wrote about a year ago:

Well ... there's also the fact that block withholding on different pools has different effects ...

Payout   Affect on withholder                                         Affect on miners   Affect on pool OP
PPS         Almost zero (one share lost per block)              0% risk                   100% risk
CPPSRB   Minimal risk if the miner keeps mining and
               avoids getting far down the payout queue          100% risk               0% risk
PPLNS   Same risk as all miners                                          100% risk               0% risk

There are also, of course, long term issues that would probably mean most pools would lose their miners.
N.B. the PPS solution would be to charge a higher fee than the high fee they already need to charge to hope they can cover pool variance.

Take those into consideration when choosing a pool ...

So IF a withholding attack took place, the pool op has several choices. He can do nothing, for his risk is 0%. Or he can investigate in favor of all miners who were affected equally.

I acknowledge that the stress factor for someone who has to give a verbal valium to his partners is bigger, however, knowing the pool and its operator, it should be clear that the coins will come. And it would make sense to inform partners that there is _always_ a risk in mining.